History Lesson: When Asking for Buffs goes Wrong

Alpheu5 · October 2017

PTS 2.6.0
"Destro ult sucks for its cost"
"Meteor gives more burst"
"Ehh, I won't be using this garbage"

PTS 2.6.1

"Still not using it cause it costs too much"
"Meteor still a better thing to slot"
"This doesn't even compare to the OP 2h ultimate"

1 year later:
"Zergs running around everywhere with destro ult omg"
"Needs nerf, too much unavoidable damage"
"Why is this in the game?"

Minno · October 2017

I remember that pts. A lot of us wanted a destro ultimate that cost less to be comparable to other stamina Ultimates. And we're willing to take any changes as long as it make up for that 250 cost.

And granted at this time gank builds were using the 2h ultimate to hit for 25-30k , which was totally OP lol.

Destro ulti makes sense for the cost. But sadly it's unblocked DMG is the real reason it's used; best ultimate that ignores both dodge and blocking. I wish that was available on my Templar without a staff lol.

Alpheu5 · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

I remember that pts. A lot of us wanted a destro ultimate that cost less to be comparable to other stamina Ultimates. And we're willing to take any changes as long as it make up for that 250 cost.

And granted at this time gank builds were using the 2h ultimate to hit for 25-30k , which was totally OP lol.

Destro ulti makes sense for the cost. But sadly it's unblocked DMG is the real reason it's used; best ultimate that ignores both dodge and blocking. I wish that was available on my Templar without a staff lol.

A lot of what was being said made the 2h ult out to be the ultimate all stam classes would use.

Up to this day I think I've seen it maybe thrice on my death recap.

Feanor · October 2017

@Alpheu5

That's just because with the HA dominance and general survivability you absolutely need a CC. Dawnbreaker is much stronger therefore. The 2H ult in a gank build though is a completely different story...

Malic · October 2017

Games that dont provide meaningful, available counter play always suffer from these problems. Once they go on for a while you have layers, upon layers.

As an example I admit it, I use heavy armor on my magplar with sword and board ulti and when grouped flip to destro to farm stupid AD.

Sure I have a solo build, and I could always do a hybrid but its just a temp game play option until you realize the meta always wins. Things are improving, they are coming around to seeing that 1-3 build types isnt good game play. Given the amount of gear sets in the game you would have thought they could have gotten there sooner but better late than never.

Its like the proc set, viper stam NB. The only reason you had not to run it is because you werent challenged. Ya I know you got caught you died but still.

DDuke · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

I remember that pts. A lot of us wanted a destro ultimate that cost less to be comparable to other stamina Ultimates. And we're willing to take any changes as long as it make up for that 250 cost.

And granted at this time gank builds were using the 2h ultimate to hit for 25-30k , which was totally OP lol.

Destro ulti makes sense for the cost. But sadly it's unblocked DMG is the real reason it's used; best ultimate that ignores both dodge and blocking. I wish that was available on my Templar without a staff lol.

A lot of what was being said made the 2h ult out to be the ultimate all stam classes would use.

Up to this day I think I've seen it maybe thrice on my death recap.

I think 2H ulti saw more use in magicka Stygian builds

Feanor · October 2017

Only until that @Blobsky build video...

Alpheu5 · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@Alpheu5

That's just because with the HA dominance and general survivability you absolutely need a CC. Dawnbreaker is much stronger therefore. The 2H ult in a gank build though is a completely different story...

But dooood the 2h ult steals their resists and refills your ult so OOOOPPPPP!!11!!!!1!!!

Zer0oo · October 2017

We lost dawnbreaker as fast burst ulti and got an extremely expensive ulti. Many just wanted something similar to dawnbreaker. If i remember right the first version had just alittle more damage than the bats.

As the 2h ulti is kinda op if you build for it since it ignores all resistances and can be used to 1shot ppl independent of armour type, but other stam ultis are just more universal and in it own way op(incap, dawnbreaker... ).

Derra · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

PTS 2.6.0
"Destro ult sucks for its cost"
"Meteor gives more burst"
"Ehh, I won't be using this garbage"

PTS 2.6.1

"Still not using it cause it costs too much"
"Meteor still a better thing to slot"
"This doesn't even compare to the OP 2h ultimate"

1 year later:
"Zergs running around everywhere with destro ult omg"
"Needs nerf, too much unavoidable damage"
"Why is this in the game?"

Keep in mind that it was also buffed by 15% in dmg flat after this.

That´s also when both morph deals similar dmg and only after BOTH of those buffs elemental rage (static morph) became vaible in pve and is still competing with meteor there.

The buffs to base ability and rage morph were ok. They should have left the player based morph as is.

Minno · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

I remember that pts. A lot of us wanted a destro ultimate that cost less to be comparable to other stamina Ultimates. And we're willing to take any changes as long as it make up for that 250 cost.

And granted at this time gank builds were using the 2h ultimate to hit for 25-30k , which was totally OP lol.

Destro ulti makes sense for the cost. But sadly it's unblocked DMG is the real reason it's used; best ultimate that ignores both dodge and blocking. I wish that was available on my Templar without a staff lol.

A lot of what was being said made the 2h ult out to be the ultimate all stam classes would use.

Up to this day I think I've seen it maybe thrice on my death recap.

At first it was. Allot of my deaths following that pts cycle were from the ultimate from stealth. Very hard hitting.

Now? Its still a very good ultimate; ignores resistance, grants immunity to snares, can proc major Endurance if you kill the player with it, and since Ultimates scale off your highest stats it's cross-build friendly.

But it's blockable and dodgable. That's why you hardly see it.

And compared to Dawnbreaker, the two hander ulti does similar DMG but is 140-150 ultimate, doesn't give you extra weapon DMG, and doesn't do extra DMG on vampires/wearwolves. And doesn't stun players.

mb10 · October 2017

Zer0oo wrote: »

We lost dawnbreaker as fast burst ulti and got an extremely expensive ulti. Many just wanted something similar to dawnbreaker. If i remember right the first version had just alittle more damage than the bats.

As the 2h ulti is kinda op if you build for it since it ignores all resistances and can be used to 1shot ppl independent of armour type, but other stam ultis are just more universal and in it own way op(incap, dawnbreaker... ).

Dawnbreaker for 100 ult was quite ridiculous though

Alpheu5 · October 2017

mb10 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

We lost dawnbreaker as fast burst ulti and got an extremely expensive ulti. Many just wanted something similar to dawnbreaker. If i remember right the first version had just alittle more damage than the bats.

As the 2h ulti is kinda op if you build for it since it ignores all resistances and can be used to 1shot ppl independent of armour type, but other stam ultis are just more universal and in it own way op(incap, dawnbreaker... ).

Dawnbreaker for 100 ult was quite ridiculous though

85 for Sorcerers

Zer0oo · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

We lost dawnbreaker as fast burst ulti and got an extremely expensive ulti. Many just wanted something similar to dawnbreaker. If i remember right the first version had just alittle more damage than the bats.

As the 2h ulti is kinda op if you build for it since it ignores all resistances and can be used to 1shot ppl independent of armour type, but other stam ultis are just more universal and in it own way op(incap, dawnbreaker... ).

Dawnbreaker for 100 ult was quite ridiculous though

85 for Sorcerers

and a lot of extra damage to vampires

GreenSoup2HoT · October 2017

ever since eots went live i was against that change. pts damage model was fine. it was still op in a group environment.

danno8 · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

PTS 2.6.0
"Destro ult sucks for its cost"
"Meteor gives more burst"
"Ehh, I won't be using this garbage"

PTS 2.6.1

"Still not using it cause it costs too much"
"Meteor still a better thing to slot"
"This doesn't even compare to the OP 2h ultimate"

1 year later:
"Zergs running around everywhere with destro ult omg"
"Needs nerf, too much unavoidable damage"
"Why is this in the game?"

At the first iteration, the Destro Ultimate was in fact terrible. Meteor did more damage by a fair amount even if the enemy stepped out of the AoE half way through and for much less Ultimate.

The problem is ZoS compressed that damage into half the time, effectively doubling the DPS which was an overbuff. That is solely on ZoS, the player base was correct that it was too weak for the cost. It needed a 50% DPS buff, not a 100% buff.

So on PTS we have a 12%(?) nerf to EotS. A 25% nerf would put the skill at the point where most people thought it should be back when it first came out.

Izaki · October 2017

I remember that PTS... Good times.

lucky_Sage · October 2017

if I rember people wanted mag builds a have a single target burst ult not a aoe

Xsorus · October 2017

I was against every buff because I knew a mobile pbae was going to be used by every zerg group... hell at the time it was 12 meter radius and lasted 10 seconds and people were whining about its damage compared to meteor....

I still can’t believe people were that blind to what this ability would become.

If you look at the original eots and still don’t get why I was against buffing it you simply aren’t very bright.

Derra · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

I was against every buff because I knew a mobile pbae was going to be used by every zerg group... hell at the time it was 12 meter radius and lasted 10 seconds and people were whining about its damage compared to meteor....

I still can’t believe people were that blind to what this ability would become.

If you look at the original eots and still don’t get why I was against buffing it you simply aren’t very bright.

If you still look at the original ability (base + rage) and wonder why every pve player at that time was for buffing it...

Xsorus · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I was against every buff because I knew a mobile pbae was going to be used by every zerg group... hell at the time it was 12 meter radius and lasted 10 seconds and people were whining about its damage compared to meteor....

I still can’t believe people were that blind to what this ability would become.

If you look at the original eots and still don’t get why I was against buffing it you simply aren’t very bright.

If you still look at the original ability (base + rage) and wonder why every pve player at that time was for buffing it...

The people in that thread back then weren’t pve players; some well known pvp posters were in that thread whining.

Derra · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I was against every buff because I knew a mobile pbae was going to be used by every zerg group... hell at the time it was 12 meter radius and lasted 10 seconds and people were whining about its damage compared to meteor....

I still can’t believe people were that blind to what this ability would become.

If you look at the original eots and still don’t get why I was against buffing it you simply aren’t very bright.

If you still look at the original ability (base + rage) and wonder why every pve player at that time was for buffing it...

The people in that thread back then weren’t pve players; some well known pvp posters were in that thread whining.

I´ve posted there - under the aspect of pve at that time as i had been heavily invested in raiding back then.

Never even looked at the eye morph. It´s still not fully leveled on my main.

Alpheu5 · October 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I was against every buff because I knew a mobile pbae was going to be used by every zerg group... hell at the time it was 12 meter radius and lasted 10 seconds and people were whining about its damage compared to meteor....

I still can’t believe people were that blind to what this ability would become.

If you look at the original eots and still don’t get why I was against buffing it you simply aren’t very bright.

If you still look at the original ability (base + rage) and wonder why every pve player at that time was for buffing it...

The people in that thread back then weren’t pve players; some well known pvp posters were in that thread whining.

Which I find strange considering at the time, the memories of proxy det/vd bombs would still be fresh in the minds of those active in Cyro.

Blobsky · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Only until that @Blobsky build video...

Best *** ever

Xsorus · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I was against every buff because I knew a mobile pbae was going to be used by every zerg group... hell at the time it was 12 meter radius and lasted 10 seconds and people were whining about its damage compared to meteor....

I still can’t believe people were that blind to what this ability would become.

If you look at the original eots and still don’t get why I was against buffing it you simply aren’t very bright.

If you still look at the original ability (base + rage) and wonder why every pve player at that time was for buffing it...

The people in that thread back then weren’t pve players; some well known pvp posters were in that thread whining.

Which I find strange considering at the time, the memories of proxy det/vd bombs would still be fresh in the minds of those active in Cyro.

Ironically; I pointed that out in the thread... and some of the people who whines about prox det and VD were asking for a buff to destro ult.

Teridaxus · October 2017

Too be honest for many people the pts is nothing more than a preview place for upcomming bugs/exploits which they can enjoy in secret on live server later for weeks/months with the added possiblity to fool the devs into making new ones on top of those since they know new changes may take atleast another half year to gather balance data.

People whining? They acting only and know 100% what they ask for and what impact it will have on life. Destro ulti was just the most blatant example in recent time.

Ladislao · October 2017

Actually there are lots of stories like this. About ulties, about wardens, about balance as a whole, about everything. Every single PTS.
From the last: everyone said stamina should be buffed in PVE. But there were no changes and stamina is priority dps. All hated magicka sorcs are needed only for off-balance procs. ZOS won again.

And till now every single PTS people think they are smarter than developers. They understand everything, they know the solution to all problems. They would certainly have made a balance. But, I think, during these years we understand that this is not so. Maybe someday awareness will come.

As it was written in one article, "audience is good at recognizing problems and bad at solving them".

"What does a doctor always do first? They ask you how you're feeling. Why? Because you're the expert on you. No one else better understands how you feel. However, the doctor doesn't often ask you how to solve any problems that you might have because they're better equipped than you to do that. The same is true in game design."
Twenty Years, Twenty Lessons

ajkatescub18_ESO · October 2017

Ladislao wrote: »

Actually there are lots of stories like this. About ulties, about wardens, about balance as a whole, about everything. Every single PTS.
From the last: everyone said stamina should be buffed in PVE. But there were no changes and stamina is priority dps. All hated magicka sorcs are needed only for off-balance procs. ZOS won again.

And till now every single PTS people think they are smarter than developers. They understand everything, they know the solution to all problems. They would certainly have made a balance. But, I think, during these years we understand that this is not so. Maybe someday awareness will come.

As it was written in one article, "audience is good at recognizing problems and bad at solving them".
"What does a doctor always do first? They ask you how you're feeling. Why? Because you're the expert on you. No one else better understands how you feel. However, the doctor doesn't often ask you how to solve any problems that you might have because they're better equipped than you to do that. The same is true in game design."
Twenty Years, Twenty Lessons

That's sound logic, but I'm not convinced that is the case here. There does not seem to be much acknowledgement of the symptoms, let alone solutions to address them. It's like visiting a doctor when you have chronic back pain, only to leave the office with a treatment for foot fungus and a slap on the back on your way out.

I agree that the community's ideas for solutions aren't always going to be in the best interests of the entire community, or come without unintended consequences. However, acknowledgement of the complaints is a great place to start, even if the fixes don't always align with community sentiments.

zyk · October 2017

I'm for the EOTS nerf because it is too effective in Cyrodiil, but that doesn't make it OP. That just means a lot of players are very bad at anticipating and avoiding EOTS and therefore it is too widely used, limiting variety.

I think EOTS should be scrapped entirely and replaced by something like an elemental damage version of Dawnbreaker.

The nerf won't solve many problems for those who are killed by EOTS. They will either still die to it or die faster to coordinated burst ults. But I like the fact there will be more variety.

Ankael07 · October 2017

Talk about cherry picking...
People complained about the stationary morph of Elemental Storm when it lasted 12 seconds, not EOTS we have now. We wanted the stationary morph only to be buffed in damage not the mobile one. Now all they had to do was bring back EOTS to pts version ( double duration, half damage) because a simple %12 damage nerf wont change a thing for high magicka/spell power builds combined with gap closers that have no penalty.