PTS 3.2.3 Clever Alchemist - What a joke.

amir412 · October 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Check this out everyone:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

Now there is multiple issues with this developer comment.

1: "This solves the issue".
Since when has a ganker using clever alchemist ever been an issue?

Gankers are annoying yes but its apart of the game and a dynamic of an open-world pvp environment.

2: "We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth."
What is stopping people from using this set strategically in combat if they choose to rather then ganking?

Just because your data may favor medium ganking play-styles with this set does not mean people cannot use this set in a different manner.

3: "then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus"
If you don't like players using unique duration sets as "off-bar" sets why don't you just hit them all?

3: Did you know that gankers used to sacrifice quite a lot to "one-shot" players?.. which is no longer the case due to your insanely overpowered monster sets?
Did you know if a player fails to gank someone with clever alchemist that they are now down a potion cool-down but also a 5 piece set bonus? High Cost/Risk for High Reward?

This game has no pvp direction and its sad to see. You continue to ruin counter-play and just slap players in the face. It's pretty disgraceful.

You wan't to know what the issues really were?
The issue is high dps proc based monster helmets that allow any build/spec in game to burst players down with no damage at all (Hello 5k Seleane procs).

The issue is increasing enchant damage by 300% increasing burst damage (this happend long ago).

The issue is removing Radiant Mage Lights stealth damage mitigation and now players who complain about ganking cannot protect themselves.

The issue was removing stealth crit damage when in reality it was really mage light empower (use-able in stealth) making one-shots damage out of control (snipe/onslaught/heavy att).

The issue was snipe emote glitching allowing players to queue up 3+ snipes without even knowing you've been hit.

The issue was removing crit's from proc's instead of nerfing the few that were over-performing. (Hello blanket fixes). Now you have a whole slue of useless sets that were still bad when they could crit.

You developers continue to dumb down the game and many of your balance changes are just simply whack. You have a large number of competent forum users and you completely ignore them. Just wanted to throw this out there also, the change to Eye of the Storm won't change a thing. Don't let people gap close while its active. That's a real change.

Overall the patch notes were pretty positive but some of the changes were straight up whack.

By devs i understood that u can > Pop a potion and get the buff > Drop the whole gear with 1 button addon > Switch to more offensive gear (Lets say Necro + Vicious death), and still have the stats gained from Alchemist Pot.
If i understood correctly, this is some lazy way to deal with a bug. really lazy way.

Derra · October 2017

amir412 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Check this out everyone:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

Now there is multiple issues with this developer comment.

1: "This solves the issue".
Since when has a ganker using clever alchemist ever been an issue?

Gankers are annoying yes but its apart of the game and a dynamic of an open-world pvp environment.

2: "We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth."
What is stopping people from using this set strategically in combat if they choose to rather then ganking?

Just because your data may favor medium ganking play-styles with this set does not mean people cannot use this set in a different manner.

3: "then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus"
If you don't like players using unique duration sets as "off-bar" sets why don't you just hit them all?

3: Did you know that gankers used to sacrifice quite a lot to "one-shot" players?.. which is no longer the case due to your insanely overpowered monster sets?
Did you know if a player fails to gank someone with clever alchemist that they are now down a potion cool-down but also a 5 piece set bonus? High Cost/Risk for High Reward?

This game has no pvp direction and its sad to see. You continue to ruin counter-play and just slap players in the face. It's pretty disgraceful.

You wan't to know what the issues really were?
The issue is high dps proc based monster helmets that allow any build/spec in game to burst players down with no damage at all (Hello 5k Seleane procs).

The issue is increasing enchant damage by 300% increasing burst damage (this happend long ago).

The issue is removing Radiant Mage Lights stealth damage mitigation and now players who complain about ganking cannot protect themselves.

The issue was removing stealth crit damage when in reality it was really mage light empower (use-able in stealth) making one-shots damage out of control (snipe/onslaught/heavy att).

The issue was snipe emote glitching allowing players to queue up 3+ snipes without even knowing you've been hit.

The issue was removing crit's from proc's instead of nerfing the few that were over-performing. (Hello blanket fixes). Now you have a whole slue of useless sets that were still bad when they could crit.

You developers continue to dumb down the game and many of your balance changes are just simply whack. You have a large number of competent forum users and you completely ignore them. Just wanted to throw this out there also, the change to Eye of the Storm won't change a thing. Don't let people gap close while its active. That's a real change.

Overall the patch notes were pretty positive but some of the changes were straight up whack.

By devs i understood that u can > Pop a potion and get the buff > Drop the whole gear with 1 button addon > Switch to more offensive gear (Lets say Necro + Vicious death), and still have the stats gained from Alchemist Pot.
If i understood correctly, this is some lazy way to deal with a bug. really lazy way.

It´s not lazy per se - because if they made it in a way that you have to have the gear on for the buff to be active it would be an even bigger nerf for the set because it would no longer be able to be backbared for example.

zyk · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

It´s not lazy per se - because if they made it in a way that you have to have the gear on for the buff to be active it would be an even bigger nerf for the set because it would no longer be able to be backbared for example.

It is possible to code a solution that takes backbar weapons into account. There's no debating this. There is a way to fix the underlying issue without changing how the set is currently used legitimately. Hence, the solution ZOS has applied is lazy.

Feanor · October 2017

While it's debatable if the way they did this is a good one, I think it's crystal clear that you shouldn't keep a set induced buff when you no longer wear it. It's the same as getting Evasion from Hist Bark while not actually wearing the 5 pc some patches ago.

As for one player wiping whole raids it's also quite clear ZOS doesn't like it. Contrary to the common belief some here have I do enjoy seeing a good NB bomb. It's not that easy to pull off and requires some luck with your targets being inattentive. I normally don't die to bombs, but yesterday for example @BigBadVolk got me and some others while repairing a main gate. It was well played. That's a form of stealth play I actually find entertaining even on the receiving end as it takes some skill at least.

Rohamad_Ali · October 2017

All this basically boils down to is Devs unable to keep Addons under control or program the sets properly to drop buffs once gear changes . We seen it with Hist Bark too . Lazy fix and a nerf to set some people used without a addon with its original purpose intended . Get you API and you programming fixed ZoS . Balancing around glitches is a new level of incompetence .

Azurya · October 2017

NERF ALL, I SAY IT AGAIN: NERF ALL!
all skills
all sets
all and everything
let us battle with a broom and a bucket and do some housing
BUT NERF EVERYTHING ELSE!

this is getting even more ridiculous with every new DLC
IT SUCKS ZOS

Derra · October 2017

zyk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s not lazy per se - because if they made it in a way that you have to have the gear on for the buff to be active it would be an even bigger nerf for the set because it would no longer be able to be backbared for example.

It is possible to code a solution that takes backbar weapons into account. There's no debating this. There is a way to fix the underlying issue without changing how the set is currently used legitimately. Hence, the solution ZOS has applied is lazy.

The easiest solution would have been to not allow gearswap addons in cyro

If someone manages this with opening inventory and equipping 5 new armorpieces then well - you do you mate.

The problem is imo exclusively present with gearswapping on hotkey press addons.

STEVIL · October 2017

Not going to argue for or against ganking but it seems to me the elephant in the room is add-on auto-gear swapping in the gap between buff and combat. Not sure if CA is the only set that can allow a buff OOC that lasts long enough to add-on chg and keep benefits but the fix should be done at the add-on impact, not the set effects being changed in a way that also impacts those not using the add-on gear replace.

This seems like a well-interventioned change that impacts the set and play well beyond its intended scope.

Feanor · October 2017

@Derra

I agree on that one. But that would mean ZOS would either have to disable all addons in Cyrodiil or perform addon testing and approve addons singlehandedly for PvP. Both are not very likely. I for one wouldn't want to change all my convenience and aesthetics addons for the horrible base game UI.

Derra · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@Derra

I agree on that one. But that would mean ZOS would either have to disable all addons in Cyrodiil or perform addon testing and approve addons singlehandedly for PvP. Both are not very likely. I for one wouldn't want to change all my convenience and aesthetics addons for the horrible base game UI.

Yeah it´s an entirely different discussion.

I´m at the point where i think if they were to make a few adjustments to the base game UI the game would be better of with not allowing addons in pvp.

Jake1576 · October 2017

...

Koensol · October 2017

ZOS wants to fix the exploitation of transfering over setbonusses to a new setup. And to fix it they nerf a skill.... Mind = Blown.

Hexys · October 2017

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

GreenSoup2HoT · October 2017

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

I honestly would prefer this. Back bar clever doesnt matter to me.

edit to add "to me".

ToRelax · October 2017

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

So you want them to go against the concept design they just stated and restrict it's functionality in combat while making it easier to use the set for ganking? >_>

Maulkin · October 2017

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

Major Gank. The hell? Might as well call it Major Douchbaggery.

They have no problem with people backbarring it, so your suggestion would be the opposite of what they are trying to achieve. If they decide to look at backbarring altogether, then a lot of sets and builds will be destroyed including Lich, Wiz Riposte, Necropotence etc.

I think the best way to handle this would be to put you in combat the second you get the buff, so you can't completely change set afterwards. Wouldn't affect bomblades or gankers, but specifically target the people who get the buff then macro switch to hunding/spriggan.

Maulkin · October 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

I honestly would prefer this. Back bar clever doesnt matter.

To you. It matters to all the bombblades out there.

Jake1576 · October 2017

If they want to remove the bar swapping issue that's fine but people who actually are wearing 5 piece's or armor to get the damage increase should be allowed to still get it while in stealth I've never switched bars to get the buff I've always wore 5 piece's medium on stamina nightblade to get the buff

Maulkin · October 2017

"Jake1576 wrote: »

If they want to remove the bar swapping issue that's fine but people who actually are wearing 5 piece's or armor to get the damage increase should be allowed to still get it while in stealth I've never switched bars to get the buff I've always wore 5 piece's medium on stamina nightblade to get the buff

That's not what they want to remove.

npuk · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

3: "then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus"

Being mainly a console player, I can quite confidently say not a chance, by the time you have fumbled through the menu and swapped it out at a time the effect would have worn off.

Derra · October 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

I honestly would prefer this. Back bar clever doesnt matter.

LOL

zammo · October 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

@ZOS_Wrobel

First of all, I do not use the Clever Alchemist item set.

As several others have stated, this smacks of the easiest "fix" available being implemented, and is a band aid at best. It seems so obvious that I'm embarrassed to ask the question, but is it not possible to code, for example, so that once all 5 pieces of an item set are removed, the proc dissipates? Surely that's the way to go?

To me, this appears to be a reaction to functionality provided by a third party add-on. If an add-on is creating these scenarios, and you don't like it, lock the API down so the add-on's cannot cause the problem in the first place. I'd love to have seen a console player abusing this mechanic, but now they're gonna get punished also.

In my opinion, there is no more of a problem with this item set being used from stealth than any other damage orientated item set, so i'm not buying your comment about wanting it to be used more strategically in the middle of combat.

crobarXIII · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

While it's debatable if the way they did this is a good one, I think it's crystal clear that you shouldn't keep a set induced buff when you no longer wear it. It's the same as getting Evasion from Hist Bark while not actually wearing the 5 pc some patches ago.

As for one player wiping whole raids it's also quite clear ZOS doesn't like it. Contrary to the common belief some here have I do enjoy seeing a good NB bomb. It's not that easy to pull off and requires some luck with your targets being inattentive. I normally don't die to bombs, but yesterday for example @BigBadVolk got me and some others while repairing a main gate. It was well played. That's a form of stealth play I actually find entertaining even on the receiving end as it takes some skill at least.

So are you saying I should lose the buff from the 5 piece proc of sets like BSW, moondancer, sunderflame, war machine, NMG, briarheart etc. every time I swap weapons during my rotation?

Xvorg · October 2017

clocksstoppe wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

A better change would be to make it so during the duration of the proc you cannot change gear sets.

Yeah, simple and elegant solution. Should have just made clever alchemist effect force the player into being in combat.

But that would affect the use of pot in stealth while wearin CA

Feanor · October 2017

crobarXIII wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

While it's debatable if the way they did this is a good one, I think it's crystal clear that you shouldn't keep a set induced buff when you no longer wear it. It's the same as getting Evasion from Hist Bark while not actually wearing the 5 pc some patches ago.

As for one player wiping whole raids it's also quite clear ZOS doesn't like it. Contrary to the common belief some here have I do enjoy seeing a good NB bomb. It's not that easy to pull off and requires some luck with your targets being inattentive. I normally don't die to bombs, but yesterday for example @BigBadVolk got me and some others while repairing a main gate. It was well played. That's a form of stealth play I actually find entertaining even on the receiving end as it takes some skill at least.

So are you saying I should lose the buff from the 5 piece proc of sets like BSW, moondancer, sunderflame, war machine, NMG, briarheart etc. every time I swap weapons during my rotation?

No. A back bar buff swapping over is fine. Most sets work that way. But you shouldn't get the buff if you don't wear the set at all.

Maulkin · October 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

A better change would be to make it so during the duration of the proc you cannot change gear sets.

Yeah, simple and elegant solution. Should have just made clever alchemist effect force the player into being in combat.

But that would affect the use of pot in stealth while wearin CA

No it wouldn't. You can be in combat and stealthed.

SanTii.92 · October 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

I honestly would prefer this. Back bar clever doesnt matter.

Are you serious.

BigBadVolk · October 2017

Tbh, not necessary total garbage, this set just, hmm how should I say it, people (gankers bombers) will only wear it if they're with a sieging/defending "party", at least some, but in most situations it will be a garbage at least for NBs

GreenSoup2HoT · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

I honestly would prefer this. Back bar clever doesnt matter.

LOL

SanTii.92 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

I honestly would prefer this. Back bar clever doesnt matter.

Are you serious.

As a dw/2h ganker back bar clever does not matter to me. Am i not aloud to have an opinion lol?

For a bomber i see where back bar clever is important. Its basically a must have to fit VD and a monster set with destro. Ive seen bombers go dw/destro though which would work.

I'll edit that last post. Can't catch a break it seems.

Maulkin wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

A really easy fix for this is to create a new buff, give it a name and this buff just gives you 700 weapon damage.

Call it minor or major gank whatever, when you activate a potion you gain major gank, increasing you weapon damage by 700, when you don't wear 5 alchemist this buff goes away. DONE

Ok this kinda removes the back-bar playstyle of this set, but at least you can still use it to gank out of combat from stealth.

I honestly would prefer this. Back bar clever doesnt matter.

To you. It matters to all the bombblades out there.

Yeah i fixed that last comment. My bad bomb-blades.

SaintSubwayy · October 2017

Valve wrote: »

A better solution would've have been to just remove the buff if the player changes some of their gear, but oh well.

exactly, this change is a complete overkill. I guess if this goes live noone will use Clever Alchemist anymore and we've another dead set.