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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811

How should the sorc class look like ? Both stam and magicka changes.

Lord_Invel
Lord_Invel
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I posted this discussion paragraph in another forum post and I just want everyone to give me their feedback. @ZOS_Wrobel

Make streak a disorient again that goes through block and make it have only a 25 percent cost increase penalty. Make endless fury dodgeable like it used to be, make curse blockable. Nerf shield stacking 3 shields at once make it to where you can only have 2 shields on your body AT MAX for every class not just sorc. Nerf resto ult it is extremely overpowered it should be like 200 ultimate or 250 ultimate points! Buff bound aegis make it to where you can equip it on one bar to have the full buff, for example if you have it equipped on overload or your resto bar only and activate it the buff stays with you and you don't need it slotted on all three/two of your bars.

Nerf mines damage make mines act like a debuff of somekind, but lower the damage by 40 or even 50 percent. Buff power surge healing and crit surge healing tooltip by I would say 2k or 3k at most. Don't allow pirate skeleton undaunted set apply its mitigation to shields same with resto ult, major protection should not apply to shields it should only apply to health! Keep the stun on crystal frags and make crystal shards act as a stam version of crystal frags but without damage boost since its changing it to a stam morph version. In a single summary of two paragraphs sorc is suddenly balanced.

Pets however are tricky. I would like to hear what the community has to say about pet sorcs as I am not experienced in using a pet sorc. I'm used to using traditional magicka sorc and stam sorc but have never tried pet sorc.

I do believe the changes that I have listed in this post will make sorcs have to learn to be mobile and offensive in order to be a successful class rather than just spamming shields/camping mines/ or spamming resto ultimates.
  • Mickey
    Mickey
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    I agree.
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    Mickey wrote: »
    I agree.

    Wow what an insightful and very detailed reply please post more!!!
  • Alpheu5
    Alpheu5
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    Minefield and Tomb need to be differentiated if you're going to nerf damage. Minefield is primarily used exclusively as a form of static defense over a long period and covers a broad area. Tomb covers a much smaller area, and must be aimed when deciding to use it offensively, which is already difficult against moving targets. This is why it works better as a follow-up to a knockdown like Frags (R.I.P.), Dawnbreaker, or Meteor.

    I hesitate to criticize the Clannfear and its heal because I don't want it nerfed to the ground, seeing as its my literal lifeblood, but I also don't want it so buffed that everybody and their Nightblade starts using it. I will say that Homestead brought me the most enjoyment out of using it from all the patches since Dark Brotherhood.

    As for Streak...
    CerXkQJ.png
    Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian Dragonknight
    Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    Alpheu5 wrote: »
    Minefield and Tomb need to be differentiated if you're going to nerf damage. Minefield is primarily used exclusively as a form of static defense over a long period and covers a broad area. Tomb covers a much smaller area, and must be aimed when deciding to use it offensively, which is already difficult against moving targets. This is why it works better as a follow-up to a knockdown like Frags (R.I.P.), Dawnbreaker, or Meteor.

    I hesitate to criticize the Clannfear and its heal because I don't want it nerfed to the ground, seeing as its my literal lifeblood, but I also don't want it so buffed that everybody and their Nightblade starts using it. I will say that Homestead brought me the most enjoyment out of using it from all the patches since Dark Brotherhood.

    As for Streak...
    CerXkQJ.png

    I do agree with you on the tomb vs daedric mine morph that is a very important distinction. I believe you are right in that the tomb damage should not be touched because its hard to control and there are only three mines that shoot out. However daedric minefield should be lowered in damage since there are about 5 of them surrounding your position. As for streak I would really like to see it go through block like it used to and have a 25percent cost increase per use rather than a 50 percent one.
    Edited by Lord_Invel on October 6, 2017 10:50PM
  • SirMewser
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    I agree with everything except;
    • I like the idea of having the mines apply a debuff and dealing less damage but have mixed feelings...
    • Bound armor should have an active component, if not single slotted.
    • All types of mitigation should apply to shields (not resistance, I said mitigation), having said that I wouldn't mind a limit slammed down to one self-casted damage shield at a time (ally placed, armor proc, nor hardening enchant count).

    As for pets I would like to see changes to;
    • Twilight Tormentor: Infamous "DPS" morph for the twilight NEEDS to apply a debuff like minor breach, please. It's stupid that the ability is useless for technically half the battle in PVE while the other morph is really powerful and always useful.
    • Clannfear: If this is to be a tank pet, I want to see changes to both damage scaling and how player's manage this pet, shields don't do it justice since tanks aren't willing to invest high in max magic (if they do then the heal the clannfear provides becomes useless to the point, you could just run Twilight Matriarch).
    Edited by SirMewser on October 6, 2017 11:39PM
  • IAVITNI
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    Are you asking for the skill fury to be dodgable? Because Im pretty sure it already is. If you're referring to the execute portion, I'm also pretty sure that the damage is already lockable. Thematically it doesn't make sense to dodge.

    I agree on blockable curse 100%

    Resto ultimate having a 250 cost is insane. I can kill 6 people if i follow up a with a well timed Dawnbreaker. By that logic, I should be able to survive 6 people with a well timed resto (or one hand/shield ultimate for that matter) if timed right. The problem is there is no setup for these ultimates. It's just cast and go. If you nerf these ultimates you effectively kill solo as this is basically our only tool to survive the zerglings spamming mass heals and snares. I and others on these forums have suggested an increasing duration based on the number of opponents that damage you. So base duration of 2 seconds, increasing by 1.5 for every enemy that damages you up to a maximum of 7.5 seconds.

    I think you can just remove the cost increase of streak all together if you nerf shield stacking. But a nerf to shield stacking would also require a MINOR buff to shields as one shield can't compare to visor/rally alone.

    Clanfear needs a buff to survivability. Make its damage 0 for all I care. It's there to tank and provide a heal which imo, should go up to 50% of your total health (tooltip) while providing passive Health Recovery. Twilight Matriarch needs to have a shorter leash (5 meters) and function more like Engine Guardian in terms of how it tries to stay beside you.

    I think mines are fine. Maybe decrease the duration to limit camping.

    Rebuff Hurricane to 200% weapon damage and change Daedric Summoning passives to have some kind of effect. 2 of them are literally not used on majority of sorcs. Change Daedric Protection to a passive 10% regen increase, going up to 30% based on missing health and don't tie it to having a summoning ability barred or update Daedric Summoning skill line. It's really not fair that almost a whole skill tree is useless to all but a niche population of sorcs.
  • jaysins
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    I like all of your changes posted. I only play stam sorc so I'd like to see a couple of changes to the class. Bound armaments needing two slots is pretty brutal and I'd like to see this reduced to one slot. We definitely need a stam spammable and I think an interesting move for stam sorcs would be to have a medium ranged version of frags with maybe twice the distance of a normal melee attack. We're quick characters and it'd be awesome to have a move to kite people with and I think would fit the class well. I'd like a stam version of streak that acts like a game closer if tab targeted. Being able to flash to targets with an attack sounds pretty fun. These are all subjective changes I'd like to see implemented so quite biased.
    Jaisins -AD Stamsorc. Can't outrun an orc sorc
    Bearingitall -EP Warden. Lions and tigers and especially Bears oh my
  • Vapirko
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    All good stuff. Mines are altogether too powerful as they are now, evident in the way lots of mag sorc duelers crutch on them. And yes, mages wrath is far and away the most devistating execute, and there’s no reason it shouldn’t be dodgeable like all other executes. It’s about to get a lot worse next patch given people can stack them. That’s going to be a damn mess with zergs running around spamming wrath.

    I think 2-3k crit surge heal buff might be too much, I think a more interesting thing could be to have say hurricane provide increases crit chance while active and have those two skills synergize even further.

    Rest staff adjustment is already in the works.
    Edited by Vapirko on October 7, 2017 2:27AM
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    Give stam more class damage skills.
    Give magicka a defense option outside of shieldstacking.
    Give options to a little more debuffs.
    If nothing of the above, change passives to make them more useful for both amplitudes.

    Defense:
    When (!) shieldstacking is gone and heavy armor is back in line, I would like to see this class as ultra mobile. Beside tone down on streak fatigue they should have access to both Expedition buffs on mag/stam and snare removal + "denial area" skills (lightning flood, tomb, encase) to make up for difficult healing.
    Make it like more selfhealing (higher crit chance, more surge heals) with lesser need of mobility in pve and weaker self healing (due to lower crit chance/ fewer surge heals) with bigger emphasis on mobility in pvp.
    Also, when shieldstacking is gone they need to tweak conjured ward.

    Utility:
    Rework bound armor. Let it grant it current bonus for being slotted but add an active part, snare removal + the other expedition buff (compared to the respective lightning Form morph - minor for boundless, major for hurricane, with respective differences in duration). This wouldn't eliminate the need for double slotting it completely but wouldn't make it useless for just having it on one bar.
    Make lightning flood attractive with adding a debuff to it or changing it into a lingering area debuff without dmg. Like minor breach/ fracture and something else, don't know what wouldn't be overkill but strong enough to compete with LL. Maybe instead of another debuff, make it stam/physical dmg or lower it's mag cost to actually make it affordable for both sides. To fit the escape theme I mentioned above, maybe even give it a minor snare (but I think there are too many snares in this game anyway).
    Daedric Tomb as second area denial should be somewhat affordable for stam toons too. Lower costs and damage? It's something like an encase -trap but with too high costs to use it for reatreating on stam sorcs.

    Damage:
    Throw stam sorcs a bone. Grant them either a execute, burst or spam. Change crystal blast for it. E.g. uninterruptable ranged burst with cast time (like dizzy) or one Fury morph as a spam, to open up more variability in weapon choices. ATM being completely reliant on your weapon choices reduces the fun of this class for me.
    Make the clannfear morph scale with stam. It already deals physical dmg. Change one atro morph to physical dmg.
    All this opens up the use of rebate, expert summoner and blood magic to stam sorcs.


    Overperformance:
    On the other hand, may reduce time of the wrath proc slightly without killing the delayed playstyle.
    Change Implosion. Currently it feels unfair on recieving end and unreliable for the user. Change it to something reliable and predictable. In the likes of undeath passive (lower health = bigger boon) with resource regen, surge healing strength or (my favourite) a slight boost to movement speed. Or if it has to stay execute like, some very minor dmg increase of class skills when oneself or the enemy is at low health (given that they give stam something to work with).
    Also, like mentioned above, make a move on shieldstacking. It's no fun on either end.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on October 7, 2017 7:44AM
  • Mettaricana
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    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    I posted this discussion paragraph in another forum post and I just want everyone to give me their feedback. @ZOS_Wrobel

    Make streak a disorient again that goes through block and make it have only a 25 percent cost increase penalty. Make endless fury dodgeable like it used to be, make curse blockable. Nerf shield stacking 3 shields at once make it to where you can only have 2 shields on your body AT MAX for every class not just sorc. Nerf resto ult it is extremely overpowered it should be like 200 ultimate or 250 ultimate points! Buff bound aegis make it to where you can equip it on one bar to have the full buff, for example if you have it equipped on overload or your resto bar only and activate it the buff stays with you and you don't need it slotted on all three/two of your bars.

    Nerf mines damage make mines act like a debuff of somekind, but lower the damage by 40 or even 50 percent. Buff power surge healing and crit surge healing tooltip by I would say 2k or 3k at most. Don't allow pirate skeleton undaunted set apply its mitigation to shields same with resto ult, major protection should not apply to shields it should only apply to health! Keep the stun on crystal frags and make crystal shards act as a stam version of crystal frags but without damage boost since its changing it to a stam morph version. In a single summary of two paragraphs sorc is suddenly balanced.

    Pets however are tricky. I would like to hear what the community has to say about pet sorcs as I am not experienced in using a pet sorc. I'm used to using traditional magicka sorc and stam sorc but have never tried pet sorc.

    I do believe the changes that I have listed in this post will make sorcs have to learn to be mobile and offensive in order to be a successful class rather than just spamming shields/camping mines/ or spamming resto ultimates.

    Stam pets plz even if they tweaked the ult no one uses into an air atronach that spins aoe dmg

    I feel like pets should scale to max stam or magicka
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Give stam more class damage skills.
    Give magicka a defense option outside of shieldstacking.
    Give options to a little more debuffs.
    If nothing of the above, change passives to make them more useful for both amplitudes.

    Defense:
    When (!) shieldstacking is gone and heavy armor is back in line, I would like to see this class as ultra mobile. Beside tone down on streak fatigue they should have access to both Expedition buffs on mag/stam and snare removal + "denial area" skills (lightning flood, tomb, encase) to make up for difficult healing.
    Make it like more selfhealing (higher crit chance, more surge heals) with lesser need of mobility in pve and weaker self healing (due to lower crit chance/ fewer surge heals) with bigger emphasis on mobility in pvp.
    Also, when shieldstacking is gone they need to tweak conjured ward.

    Utility:
    Rework bound armor. Let it grant it current bonus for being slotted but add an active part, snare removal + the other expedition buff (compared to the respective lightning Form morph - minor for boundless, major for hurricane, with respective differences in duration). This wouldn't eliminate the need for double slotting it completely but wouldn't make it useless for just having it on one bar.
    Make lightning flood attractive with adding a debuff to it or changing it into a lingering area debuff without dmg. Like minor breach/ fracture and something else, don't know what wouldn't be overkill but strong enough to compete with LL. Maybe instead of another debuff, make it stam/physical dmg or lower it's mag cost to actually make it affordable for both sides. To fit the escape theme I mentioned above, maybe even give it a minor snare (but I think there are too many snares in this game anyway).
    Daedric Tomb as second area denial should be somewhat affordable for stam toons too. Lower costs and damage? It's something like an encase -trap but with too high costs to use it for reatreating on stam sorcs.

    Damage:
    Throw stam sorcs a bone. Grant them either a execute, burst or spam. Change crystal blast for it. E.g. uninterruptable ranged burst with cast time (like dizzy) or one Fury morph as a spam, to open up more variability in weapon choices. ATM being completely reliant on your weapon choices reduces the fun of this class for me.
    Make the clannfear morph scale with stam. It already deals physical dmg. Change one atro morph to physical dmg.
    All this opens up the use of rebate, expert summoner and blood magic to stam sorcs.


    Overperformance:
    On the other hand, may reduce time of the wrath proc slightly without killing the delayed playstyle.
    Change Implosion. Currently it feels unfair on recieving end and unreliable for the user. Change it to something reliable and predictable. In the likes of undeath passive (lower health = bigger boon) with resource regen, surge healing strength or (my favourite) a slight boost to movement speed. Or if it has to stay execute like, some very minor dmg increase of class skills when oneself or the enemy is at low health (given that they give stam something to work with).
    Also, like mentioned above, make a move on shieldstacking. It's no fun on either end.

    Pretty much all this. Pets should scale of highest stats.

    I'd make implosion a chance to put a dot on the target at any health, so overall DPS won't change, it'd be more uptime and sustained pressure.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    I'm glad to see many people share their agreement with my opinion on this thread. I thought about the sorc changes carefully before I made this post. I would like to hear more feedback as well from the community... hopefully zos actually pays attention to the comments in this thread and doesn't just toss it aside.
  • Icy_Waffles
    Icy_Waffles
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    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Mickey wrote: »
    I agree.

    Wow what an insightful and very detailed reply please post more!!!

    Someone spends time, reading YOUR thoughts, agrees with YOU and you get snarky about it?

    I hooe these changes are not implemented.
  • Biro123
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    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Make streak a disorient again that goes through block and make it have only a 25 percent cost increase penalty.
    I have no opinion either way.

    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Make endless fury dodgeable like it used to be, make curse blockable.
    It IS already dodgeable - at least before the target hits 20%, so not much of a change imho.. unless you're talking about making the tick dodgeable as you drop to 20%? That would be wrong imho.
    Curse? Only if permablocking stops or sorcs get a heal-debuff. It's the only thing in the toolkit (except eots) that goes through block and not being spammable makes it kind of balanced - and even as unblockable, permablockers can still tank multiple players (sorcs included)..

    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Nerf shield stacking 3 shields at once make it to where you can only have 2 shields on your body AT MAX for every class not just sorc.
    I haven't stacked 3 shields for ages, so makes no difference to me - and I don't think it would address any of the stacking complaints we see. I'm not against it, I just don't see it making much difference (which probably isn't a bad thing).
    How would it work for small group shields like igneous? shields from glyphs, shield procs from gear etc. ?
    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Nerf resto ult it is extremely overpowered it should be like 200 ultimate or 250 ultimate points!
    And s+b ult and warden ult - but I think they're on that already

    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Buff bound aegis make it to where you can equip it on one bar to have the full buff, for example if you have it equipped on overload or your resto bar only and activate it the buff stays with you and you don't need it slotted on all three/two of your bars.
    Make all toggles single-bar please! pets too!
    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Nerf mines damage make mines act like a debuff of somekind, but lower the damage by 40 or even 50 percent. Buff power surge healing and crit surge healing tooltip by I would say 2k or 3k at most.
    I've always been underwhelmed by mines. Gave up after tanks just kept walking straight through them, and figured mobility was more useful instead.. I can see how duellers would hate em tho.
    I'm not sure surge needs much of a buff, but it could give sorcs more options in terms of not having to rely on shields for survival. Could become too strong if not careful.

    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Don't allow pirate skeleton undaunted set apply its mitigation to shields same with resto ult, major protection should not apply to shields it should only apply to health!
    I don't think this is needed if resto-ult gets the cost nerf-hammer. I don't think pirate skelly is overly used by sorcs nowadays anyway, is it?
    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Keep the stun on crystal frags and make crystal shards act as a stam version of crystal frags but without damage boost since its changing it to a stam morph version. In a single summary of two paragraphs sorc is suddenly balanced.
    Would be nice for stamsorcs.. may even start playing mine again!
    Lord_Invel wrote: »
    Pets however are tricky. I would like to hear what the community has to say about pet sorcs as I am not experienced in using a pet sorc. I'm used to using traditional magicka sorc and stam sorc but have never tried pet sorc.
    My current build would be overpowered (defensively) imho, with these changes. 50k mag with 11k crit pet-heals in cyro. Already only uses 2 shields (heal comes from pet). Buffing surge on top of that would be a bad thing. Being unable to stack hardened/harness/healing ward may push more sorcs to go for the pet.


    Edited by Biro123 on October 9, 2017 4:24PM
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
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    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • Mettaricana
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    I feel like restore dmg shields to their full duration but remove stacking and make it so you can only have one shield up and the only stacking possible be additional shields cast by allies. Or synergies
    Edited by Mettaricana on October 9, 2017 4:50PM
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    Delete the class already. This fetish has gone on for too long.
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    giphy.gif
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • deadlychaos1991
    deadlychaos1991
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    Anyone who thinks surge and morphs need MORE healing doesn't know sorc as well as he thinks he does. I love crit surge for stam sorcs. Absolutely one of the strongest defensive moves in the game as long as you keep up an offense. It already heals for a ridiculous amount without you having to do anything and it's got like a 30 second duration. Another 2 or 3k would make stam sorcs unkillable in pvp and could survive hard mode rakkat with both healers dead. Way too strong.

    Shield stacking is definitely a good point, and crystal blast as a stam spammable is..interesting. I would love to see it. *** rapid strikes and shrouded dagger is expensive af for a spammable
    Edited by deadlychaos1991 on October 9, 2017 5:39PM
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    I don't like idea of just one shield. As you could have your class shield, dragon knight shield, and bone shield all in same setting without your choice in the matter.
  • WuffyCerulei
    WuffyCerulei
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    Delete the class already. This fetish has gone on for too long.

    ee9.png
    For the love of Kyne, buff sorc. PC NACP 2100+Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP Grand Overlord - Flawless Conqueror vMA/vBRP/vDSA no death/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL HM/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR+3/vSS HMs/vKA HMs/vVH/vRG Oax HM/vDSR
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