[Request] No Tank Option

Druid40 · September 2017

I would like to formally request a group finder option for creating groups without a tank. In my experience, not every group needs a tank to complete dungeons. Group formation would be expedited if three damage builds could group without falsifying their roles. Thank you for your time.

paulsimonps · September 2017

There is an option to do this, its called forming the group yourself manually. And side note, I sincerely hate the fact that Tanks are not always needed in dungeons.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

There is an option to do this, its called forming the group yourself manually. And side note, I sincerely hate the fact that Tanks are not always needed in dungeons.

I'm sincerely glad they aren't needed because if they were then they would need to be the best tank ever to keep the boss always focused on them, either that or they would be the only thing alive for about 2 seconds before the lack of heals means they die anyway after everyone else dropped.

The amount of one-shot or 2-shot mechanics in this game are the biggest problem with group content. They're either unforgiving most times or completely easy if they can be focused onto a tank that can survive them long enough to heal back to full.

paulsimonps · September 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

There is an option to do this, its called forming the group yourself manually. And side note, I sincerely hate the fact that Tanks are not always needed in dungeons.

I'm sincerely glad they aren't needed because if they were then they would need to be the best tank ever to keep the boss always focused on them, either that or they would be the only thing alive for about 2 seconds before the lack of heals means they die anyway after everyone else dropped.

The amount of one-shot or 2-shot mechanics in this game are the biggest problem with group content. They're either unforgiving most times or completely easy if they can be focused onto a tank that can survive them long enough to heal back to full.

I think you overestimate how difficult it is to be a tank in most content. It seems like you think as well that most people will be incredibly bad tanks. You can make challenging content that requires tanks without it being extremely hard. No faith. Also there really is not that many 1 shot mechanics, and most of them are REALLY easy to avoid.

Druid40 · September 2017

This thread is not a platform for your tank ideals. This is about a feature request for people that would like to solo, duo, or trio queue for a group with no tank.

paulsimonps · September 2017

Druid40 wrote: »

This thread is not a platform for your tank ideals. This is about a feature request for people that would like to solo, duo, or trio queue for a group with no tank.

And you plan to do that with a PUG? Good Luck. A LOT of regular 4 man PUGs fail, but you expect these to do well enough for people to want to use it?

DocFrost72 · September 2017

Actually, you can queue for a dungeon without a tank, even random queues.

Gather four people, one marks themself as tank, hit find group. Tada!

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

There is an option to do this, its called forming the group yourself manually. And side note, I sincerely hate the fact that Tanks are not always needed in dungeons.

I'm sincerely glad they aren't needed because if they were then they would need to be the best tank ever to keep the boss always focused on them, either that or they would be the only thing alive for about 2 seconds before the lack of heals means they die anyway after everyone else dropped.

The amount of one-shot or 2-shot mechanics in this game are the biggest problem with group content. They're either unforgiving most times or completely easy if they can be focused onto a tank that can survive them long enough to heal back to full.

I think you overestimate how difficult it is to be a tank in most content. It seems like you think as well that most people will be incredibly bad tanks. You can make challenging content that requires tanks without it being extremely hard. No faith. Also there really is not that many 1 shot mechanics, and most of them are REALLY easy to avoid.

No, I don't overestimate it. I've played MMOs since 2001. I've played these action combat types a lot also.
This game is particularly obvious though.

All games are a matter of keeping player health up while making boss health go down. Surviving just takes enough healing and enough damage. This is all over time as well.
If you don't have enough healing per second then you die. You will die with or without a tank without enough healing. If you need a tank then the tank has a higher health pool or resistances which equate to each health point being valued more in order to be considered a tank. Tanks still have to be healed and more than they are damaged so either they reduce the damage to manageable and still do dps or they are there for the big hits that nobody else can survive with less health. If tanks can manage hits and do dps then why aren't we doing everything with one healer and all the other group members tanks. That would be because of things like enrage timers increasing boss damage to instakill levels meaning they need to die before then and only dps can do that.

In the end, tanks are only necessary to stop damage that is too high for anybody else, which is probably some sort of instakill even if it doesn't seem like it because of the existence of tanks and even higher instakills.

As far as those mechanics being easy to avoid, not with lag or the ones like Blacksmith Zifri who fills the room with an instant death AoE or the Mantikora boss from Skyreach Hold that enrages very early and instantly kills, or 2-shots, anybody as I survived the first shot a few times to be killed by the follow-up same damage hit.
If it is easy to avoid an instakill then they wouldn't need the instakill to give us free shots on the boss as we sidestep their instakill cone. And it definitely wouldn't encourage us to have a tank any more than any other reason.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2017

Druid40 wrote: »

This thread is not a platform for your tank ideals. This is about a feature request for people that would like to solo, duo, or trio queue for a group with no tank.

You brought it up in your first post saying "not every group needs a tank". I just expanded on why that is true.
So you're countering me for agreeing with you and also keeping your post relevant and listed at the top of this forum section? Interesting how self-sabotaging people can accidentally be.

Druid40 · September 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

This thread is not a platform for your tank ideals. This is about a feature request for people that would like to solo, duo, or trio queue for a group with no tank.

You brought it up in your first post saying "not every group needs a tank". I just expanded on why that is true.
So you're countering me for agreeing with you and also keeping your post relevant and listed at the top of this forum section? Interesting how self-sabotaging people can accidentally be.

What are you talking about? I was obviously not replying to you. Calm yourself.

Curragraigue · September 2017

My experience is DPS that want 3 DPS PUG groups want it because they need a carry to hide their low DPS. Having a tank buff, debuff and take hits will make for a faster and less deaths run every time. Low Deeps just need to GG.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2017

Druid40 wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

This thread is not a platform for your tank ideals. This is about a feature request for people that would like to solo, duo, or trio queue for a group with no tank.

You brought it up in your first post saying "not every group needs a tank". I just expanded on why that is true.
So you're countering me for agreeing with you and also keeping your post relevant and listed at the top of this forum section? Interesting how self-sabotaging people can accidentally be.

What are you talking about? I was obviously not replying to you. Calm yourself.

I'm the only one you could have been responding to here given your post, unless you responded to the person who quoted me who was refuting what I said which would again be in response to me if you misinterpreted his post.

Anyway, I would love a solo option for all content even just as hard as it would be for myself in a group just without anybody else to either blame for failure or to carry me if I fail. I don't care for waiting for help at the hours I play.

tommalmm · September 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

If you don't have enough healing per second then you die. You will die with or without a tank without enough healing.

That's not true. It's called avoiding damage. You dodge, you block, you shield, you get out of aoe. Hardly any heals are needed with DDs that aint crap.

And yes, I've soloed many vet dungeons, so in fact neither heal, tank nor other DDs are NECESSARY to complete most of them. It takes sooo much more time though.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

In the end, tanks are only necessary to stop damage that is too high for anybody else, which is probably some sort of instakill even if it doesn't seem like it because of the existence of tanks and even higher instakills.

That's false as well. Tanks are there to organize the fight and prepare battlefield. If you can't see that then you've never seen even a half decent tank. In 9/10 cases I would rather take a tank than a healer. Tank makes healing unnecessary, at least if you pay attention to everything not just the boss alone. And it makes fights go faster in fact (at least if DDs are semi competent). Less deaths, less moving, less reapplying dots/aoes.

But, even though I prefer tanks to heals, I'd rather have a complete group. The runs then are sooo much smoother and satisfying (plus a healer adds to DPS, too, both by dpsing, buffing team and helping with resource management).

Asardes · September 2017

Yet people rage on many other topics about the fake tanks who queue in group finder. I agree most base game dungeons and WGT can be done without a dedicated tank even on veteran but only if the DDs are really good, not only at outputting damage but also at staying away from harm (blocking, roll dodging). Usually people who can breeze trough vMA where all damage is aimed at you and comparable to a veteran dungeon.

Woeler · September 2017

No.

Turelus · September 2017

As others have said, get a guild or a friends list and form a group manually.

The other option is to queue yourself as a tank, but GL when vFalk drops.

paulsimonps · September 2017

tommalmm wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

If you don't have enough healing per second then you die. You will die with or without a tank without enough healing.

That's not true. It's called avoiding damage. You dodge, you block, you shield, you get out of aoe. Hardly any heals are needed with DDs that aint crap.

And yes, I've soloed many vet dungeons, so in fact neither heal, tank nor other DDs are NECESSARY to complete most of them. It takes sooo much more time though.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

In the end, tanks are only necessary to stop damage that is too high for anybody else, which is probably some sort of instakill even if it doesn't seem like it because of the existence of tanks and even higher instakills.

That's false as well. Tanks are there to organize the fight and prepare battlefield. If you can't see that then you've never seen even a half decent tank. In 9/10 cases I would rather take a tank than a healer. Tank makes healing unnecessary, at least if you pay attention to everything not just the boss alone. And it makes fights go faster in fact (at least if DDs are semi competent). Less deaths, less moving, less reapplying dots/aoes.

But, even though I prefer tanks to heals, I'd rather have a complete group. The runs then are sooo much smoother and satisfying (plus a healer adds to DPS, too, both by dpsing, buffing team and helping with resource management).

I agree, a properly made group with great CC and mob placement and buffs and debuffs goes so fricking smooth. And indeed done right a tank makes things go faster than a healer if you have 3 DPS that can survive well enough on their own. Chain all the mobs in and Talon them and then your 3 DPSs AoE works far better.

Demlion · September 2017

Are you crazy?

My character is a Templar and you think tanks are bad.

My tactic as a Templar is take out the healer in the enemy side first. Then the mage goes down next. Then the archers are next.

I used to do table top role playing games and I always used that tactic.

I find people who play mages and mellee characters lack of courage to be up close. But then I learn they have their own benefits.

Think of Football. You need a strong offense and defense to fight the front lines. If someone enjoys playing a tank, allow it. You can use them as a shield.

Demlion · September 2017

I mean missile characters

idk · September 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

There is an option to do this, its called forming the group yourself manually. And side note, I sincerely hate the fact that Tanks are not always needed in dungeons.

Exactly on both points.

It would probably be a train wreck in many groups with then I tank option was a available.

Heck, I recall a NB dps that queued as a tank. He actually uses the undaunted taunt but got one shot more than a once. His dps was not that great either.

VaranisArano · September 2017

I regularly run with friends in a group that is 3 DPS, and me, the DPS/Tank. I'm a stam sorc. I'm mainly DPS. Yet, I have a little more health than the others, so I slot a taunt and queue as the tank.

Why? What possibly benefit do I bring to the group?

I keep the boss in one place. I group up the mobs. I set up the battlefield so that the boss isn't running out of the DPS' AOEs all the time (except when that's a unavoidable boss mechanic). Even on a normal dungeon, using a taunt to control the movement of the boss is still very useful in an otherwise DPS-filled group because it lowers the amount of "wasted" aoe skills.

jaws343 · September 2017

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

All games are a matter of keeping player health up while making boss health go down. Surviving just takes enough healing and enough damage. This is all over time as well.
If you don't have enough healing per second then you die. You will die with or without a tank without enough healing.

You do realize that with a proper tank on some of the bosses, DDs and Healers will take almost 0 damage through the course of the fight, meaning surviving has nothing to do with the healing being done. And I have played with a few tanks that do not even need a healer to survive the fight.

Storymaster · September 2017

Druid40 wrote: »

This thread is not a platform for your tank ideals.

@Druid40

Druid40 · September 2017

A tankless option would make group finder's group creation faster. I do not understand the logic behind disagreeing with this fact. Do people on this forum enjoy unnecessary conflict?

paulsimonps · September 2017

Druid40 wrote: »

A tankless option would make group finder's group creation faster. I do not understand the logic behind disagreeing with this fact. Do people on this forum enjoy unnecessary conflict?

Most pugs can NOT handle doing it without a tank, cause most pugs are really bad. And so if you want to use the group finder this way then just queue as a tank while being a DPS. People will hate you for it in a PuG but you can do it without causing issue in a premade. Most people WANT a Tank. You are not gonna see many people use this option even if it was there, and queue would most likely be longer, and have crap groups.

SirCritical · September 2017

I like that the new HotR dungeons need to have a tank in the group. Finally.

Druid40 · September 2017

I do queue as a dps tank, but only for fast normal runs. I used to run in groups with acquaintances, just not anymore. I agree that tanks make things a lot easier in veteran dungeons, as I do have two tanks, but I have been in 3 DD 1 Healer PUGs that did just fine, even in WGT. All I want is an option for players that can handle not having a tank.

VaranisArano · September 2017

There is an option for groups of players who know they can handle not having a tank: one member fake queues as tank, and forms the group manually. There's no problem, because all players involves have agreed to complete the content without a tank. Proceed to your dungeon.

However, it seems like what you want is the option to join a pool of like-minded players who think they don't need a tank, and thus have the option for groupfinder to queue 4 DPS groups, (and probably 1healer/3 DPS groups and 1tank/3DPS groups, because I'm sure there are people who don't need a healer either).

While that is a good option in theory, I can't help but look at the many, many threads that are complaints about PUG groups in normal and vet dungeons. From that, I draw the conclusion that adding more options wouldn't change anything. If you give DPS the option to say that they don't need a tank or healer and get faster queue times, how many in that queue are actually going to be players who really CAN run the dungeon without a tank or healer? Some will, to be sure. I predict that many will not based on the current groupfinder.

In my opinion, ZOS has given us the option to form groups manually as a way to minimize that frustration. If I want to run a 4 DPS or 1tank/3DPS dungeon with my friends, I can do that because I know what I'm signing up for and know that we can handle it. If I'm agreeing to that with PUGs, I have no such guarantee and I know from past experience that some groups will be good, some groups will be amazing, and some groups will be a complete drag. (Just like the current groupfinder experience). Adding more options would simply perpetuate the groupfinder dynamics that we already see in PUG groups. The current system of forming your group of likeminded players manually and then queueing for the dungeon is the best solution since you all know that you can handle the content.

In short, creating a queue system for DPS who can complete the content without a tank or healer does not in fact mean that the queue will be filled with DPS who can actually complete the content without a tank or healer.

Gargath · October 2017

I hate when I queue for a pug as DD and then have to play tanky because the one who queued as a tank is a selfish DD jerk with low dps and my dps is accidentally greatest so I have to pull him and entire group through a dungeon because mobs always want to kill me first. Very upset about such players and attitude. Imho actual queue system is more than enough, just the players are sometimes evil.