Snare removal for stam toons

BohnT · October 2017

With the restriction of Evasion there is nothing a heavy armor stam build can do to remove snares while any player you fight with applies snares to you.

There needs to be something to get rid of snares, you simply can't facetank in pvp with the amount of zergs around you need something to get away even when snared.

Add a snare removal to a fighter guild ability so that any stamina player can remove snares.

Juhasow · October 2017

Forward Momentum , Elusive Mist

Toast_STS · October 2017

Retreating maneuvers

Minno · October 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

Forward Momentum , Elusive Mist

FW is the best one. Really, no excuse for Stam builds aside from wanting the burst heal, to ignore FW.

Also 2h ulti grants snare immunity+removal.

technohic · October 2017

This is weird because I feel like stamina builds have all the options for this while only my magplar can of magicka class
Easily purge.

IAVITNI · October 2017

Some builds can't be competitive without rally. Stam Sorcs for example will have to crutch on Dark Deal even more and they are already in a bad place PvP wise.

Now I don't know how stamina currently holds up against magicka (in my experience, it is currently even-ish) but if stamina is forced to tun Forward momentum it will swing the advantage towards magicka classes. Ofc in an organized group this is irrelevant. But you're likely going to kill solo open world stamina play.

Minno · October 2017

IAVITNI wrote: »

Some builds can't be competitive without rally. Stam Sorcs for example will have to crutch on Dark Deal even more and they are already in a bad place PvP wise.

Now I don't know how stamina currently holds up against magicka (in my experience, it is currently even-ish) but if stamina is forced to tun Forward momentum it will swing the advantage towards magicka classes. Ofc in an organized group this is irrelevant. But you're likely going to kill solo open world stamina play.

That's fair to say. I do agree they need more sources of immunity. Then then again at the same time, why don't we remove some snares/immobilizes.

It's a double edge sword

IAVITNI · October 2017

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Some builds can't be competitive without rally. Stam Sorcs for example will have to crutch on Dark Deal even more and they are already in a bad place PvP wise.

Now I don't know how stamina currently holds up against magicka (in my experience, it is currently even-ish) but if stamina is forced to tun Forward momentum it will swing the advantage towards magicka classes. Ofc in an organized group this is irrelevant. But you're likely going to kill solo open world stamina play.

That's fair to say. I do agree they need more sources of immunity. Then then again at the same time, why don't we remove some snares/immobilizes.

It's a double edge sword

I was just providing a reason as to why OP said there really is no other snare removal option. Rapids can't be spammed but snares/roots/slows can.

But tbh I'd rather go the other route and change the way snares and slows work. I like the suggestion of a minor and major slow and reducing their accessibility. Also, I think snare immunity needs to be a thing or snares need to have a diminishing effect. I hear its different on PC, but on console, if you're snared it makes targeting buggy. But even ignoring that fact, being rooted to 1 spot forever is not fun.

I agree it is a double edge sword. I like the no cool downs in the game but at the same time, certain mechanics need to be adjusted accordingly.

Vapirko · October 2017

The answer is really that ZOS needs to reconsider the fact that there are just wayyyyy too many snares in this game. We don’t need ranged snares, we don’t need gap closers to snare or AOE snares etc. Too many damn abilities do this. Snares are very deadly and should be available to only a few skills. Additionally we don’t need poisons that snare either, and for that matter get rid of poisons altogether.

kookster · October 2017

The only snare removal abilities that are not class based are the following, and I will list after it the reason why I think it is horrible to rely on that skill:

Forward Momentum:
Most stam builds are sadly crutched using rally to heal because theres practically no stam abilities to heal. Thus making this ability almost unpickable, if you cant heal you die.

Purge:
On most stam builds you will be able to cast this once, maybe twice. Even with the efficient morph. This is unreliable for that very reason.

Retreating Maneuver:
Costs way too much, 8100 stam.. You cant rely on this for purging a snare unless you want to quickly be out of resources and then dead.

Mist Form:
You shouldn't be required to be a vampire to have access to snare removal. And you still have the same issue as Purge, it costs too much for a stam build.

Some other notes:
Dual wield and bow builds now only have 2 choices for removing snares. Both of which are horrible.

My suggestions:
1) Make the evasion part of shuffle require 5 medium and not the snare removal. Same with immovable for the CC immunity and not the resistances. And lastly light armors skill I don't think should be restricted, if you are going magicka you cant essentially use the stam abilities anyway.
2) Add a skill to Legerdemain that can remove snares.
3) Make one of the morphs of "Trapping Webs"' have a snare removal.
4) Revert the change, and not require 5 pieces.

I think these should all be done as well:
1) Drastically reduce the number of abilities that snare. I would say only keep them on AOE's that are on the ground.
2) Remove all passives that snare.
3) Convert all forms of snare to major and minor snare.

Some other possible solutions:
1) For stamDK make green dragon blood actually worth while in pvp for a stamDK. Magicka does not use this skill. And the 33% is horrible. Also make it so its a stam morph. Magicka is really limited on stam builds.
2) Give ever class that doesnt have a good stam heal one like my suggestion above. IE: sorc, templar, nightblade, and dragonknight. Wardens already have one.

Please consider these suggestions and concerns. Removing access to a good snare removal choice has me really really concerned.

Sincerely,
kookster

MehrunesFlagon · October 2017

IAVITNI wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Some builds can't be competitive without rally. Stam Sorcs for example will have to crutch on Dark Deal even more and they are already in a bad place PvP wise.

Now I don't know how stamina currently holds up against magicka (in my experience, it is currently even-ish) but if stamina is forced to tun Forward momentum it will swing the advantage towards magicka classes. Ofc in an organized group this is irrelevant. But you're likely going to kill solo open world stamina play.

That's fair to say. I do agree they need more sources of immunity. Then then again at the same time, why don't we remove some snares/immobilizes.

It's a double edge sword

I was just providing a reason as to why OP said there really is no other snare removal option. Rapids can't be spammed but snares/roots/slows can.

But tbh I'd rather go the other route and change the way snares and slows work. I like the suggestion of a minor and major slow and reducing their accessibility. Also, I think snare immunity needs to be a thing or snares need to have a diminishing effect. I hear its different on PC, but on console, if you're snared it makes targeting buggy. But even ignoring that fact, being rooted to 1 spot forever is not fun.

I agree it is a double edge sword. I like the no cool downs in the game but at the same time, certain mechanics need to be adjusted accordingly.

could give them the streak treatment.

Narvuntien · October 2017

My change is pretty simple.... Immovable pots also remove CC as well as preventing them.

I am in all medium and I don't even use Shuffle.... I use immovable pots and attack out of stealth.

Minno · October 2017

Narvuntien wrote: »

My change is pretty simple.... Immovable pots also remove CC as well as preventing them.

I am in all medium and I don't even use Shuffle.... I use immovable pots and attack out of stealth.

That would be the easiest option. Though some players hate the cc immunity without risk (ie pot cooldown is not risk compared to spending Stam to break free).

They probably need one additional unique way to get snare removal. But it must have drawbacks (like FW locked behind 2h and forcing you to choose it over the burst heal).

It could be added to each classes cast time/weak abilities. To help fill out the skills that are perceived as weak.

amir412 · October 2017

Made a thread about it,
Got bashed from all sides by casuals.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4539302#Comment_4539302

kookster wrote: »

Some other possible solutions:
1) For stamDK make green dragon blood actually worth while in pvp for a stamDK. Magicka does not use this skill. And the 33% is horrible. Also make it so its a stam morph. Magicka is really limited on stam builds.
2) Give ever class that doesnt have a good stam heal one like my suggestion above. IE: sorc, templar, nightblade, and dragonknight. Wardens already have one.

Please consider these suggestions and concerns. Removing access to a good snare removal choice has me really really concerned.

Sincerely,
kookster

I suggested to revert the change restricting skills to armor,
and then:
Shuffle - Only removes snares, and maybe some minor buff.
Medium Armor Passive - Grants the user with 5 pieces major evasion at all times > this way med armor will have another slot for one more offensive skill. -and Med armor users can choose, either go offensive or slot defnesive skill.

THIS IS CALLED BALANCE.

Fuxo · October 2017

Heavy armor has so many advantages. It's somehow balanced if there is one weakness. Anyway, maybe Unstoppable morph could give snare immunity/removal for 3 seconds. But then medium armor would need to be buffed a lot. Like minor evasion passive or stamina return when dealing a critical hit.

templesus · October 2017

Use retreating maneuvers after CC break. Unchained passive op. Case closed.

kookster · October 2017

amir412 wrote: »

I suggested to revert the change restricting skilsl to armor,
and then:
Shuffle - Only removes snares, and maybe some minor buff.
Medium Armor Passive - Grants the user with 5 pieces major evasion at all times > this way med armor will have another slot for one more offensive skill.

hmm interesting idea.

Cinbri · October 2017

I will edit thread name: "snare removal from heavy armor tanks". Maybe now people will wear heavy and stop thinking that they will have all tools without restrictions, i.e. reason why ha is fotm.

amir412 · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

I will edit thread name: "snare removal from heavy armor tanks". Maybe now people will wear heavy and stop thinking that they will have all tools without restrictions, i.e. reason why ha is fotm.

Easy for u to talk, u can run heavy and still deal with snares.do i even need to remind u that with 1 button u remove whole stam/ mag DK dots? Most of ur skills are undodgeable, maybe 1 isnt?

Ocelot9x · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

I will edit thread name: "snare removal from heavy armor tanks". Maybe now people will wear heavy and stop thinking that they will have all tools without restrictions, i.e. reason why ha is fotm.

Ha is fotm because if you wear medium you have less tools of surviving zergling swarming on you since dodge got nerfed to the ground and medium armor sets sucks (except from bone pirate,that got a huge nerf 2 patches ago).
And I know what I'm saying since I play a medium armor stam dk(worse spec to run medium).
Also,the shuffle " nerf" hit only medium armor stamina guys,while left untouched heavy mag dk/templars running around happily permablocking

Cinbri · October 2017

amir412 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I will edit thread name: "snare removal from heavy armor tanks". Maybe now people will wear heavy and stop thinking that they will have all tools without restrictions, i.e. reason why ha is fotm.

Easy for u to talk, u can run heavy and still deal with snares, do i even need to remind u that with 1 button u remove whole stam/ mag DK dots? Most of ur skills are undodgeable, maybe 1 isnt?

You qq cause nothing but laugh from me and anyone who met tanks like you in cyro. Reminds me your whispers bragging how you "can run 40k heavy stamknight with 4.5 weapon damage and permablocking and permahealing with zero mobility restrictions", the main reasons why you switched to stamknight tank. Where is your bragging now?
Wana be agile stamina toon - wear medium (getting how much qq change caused with OP shuffle, ma may finally compete with ha. But ofc people unhappy about nerfing meta ha and buffing underrated ma, right?)
Wana be heavy armor tank with survivability - keep use Rally.
Wana be heavy armor tank with some mobility - use Forward Momentum (ever heared of it?)
Wana be heavy armor tank and get every survivability tool - L2P. That probably case.

WillhelmBlack · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I will edit thread name: "snare removal from heavy armor tanks". Maybe now people will wear heavy and stop thinking that they will have all tools without restrictions, i.e. reason why ha is fotm.

Easy for u to talk, u can run heavy and still deal with snares, do i even need to remind u that with 1 button u remove whole stam/ mag DK dots? Most of ur skills are undodgeable, maybe 1 isnt?

You qq cause nothing but laugh from me and anyone who met tanks like you in cyro. Reminds me your whispers bragging how you "can run 40k heavy stamknight with 4.5 weapon damage and permablocking and permahealing with zero mobility restrictions", the main reasons why you switched to stamknight tank. Where is your bragging now?
Wana be agile stamina toon - wear medium (getting how much qq change caused with OP shuffle, ma may finally compete with ha. But ofc people unhappy about nerfing meta ha and buffing underrated ma, right?)
Wana be heavy armor tank with survivability - keep use Rally.
Wana be heavy armor tank with some mobility - use Forward Momentum (ever heared of it?)
Wana be heavy armor tank and get every survivability tool - L2P. That probably case.

RIP!

amir412 · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I will edit thread name: "snare removal from heavy armor tanks". Maybe now people will wear heavy and stop thinking that they will have all tools without restrictions, i.e. reason why ha is fotm.

Easy for u to talk, u can run heavy and still deal with snares, do i even need to remind u that with 1 button u remove whole stam/ mag DK dots? Most of ur skills are undodgeable, maybe 1 isnt?

You qq cause nothing but laugh from me and anyone who met tanks like you in cyro. Reminds me your whispers bragging how you "can run 40k heavy stamknight with 4.5 weapon damage and permablocking and permahealing with zero mobility restrictions", the main reasons why you switched to stamknight tank. Where is your bragging now?
Wana be agile stamina toon - wear medium (getting how much qq change caused with OP shuffle, ma may finally compete with ha. But ofc people unhappy about nerfing meta ha and buffing underrated ma, right?)
Wana be heavy armor tank with survivability - keep use Rally.
Wana be heavy armor tank with some mobility - use Forward Momentum (ever heared of it?)
Wana be heavy armor tank and get every survivability tool - L2P. That probably case.

Trust me, 95% of the players cant sustain the builds i am playing. You can say wtf u want, StamDK got nerfed to the ground. Anything it can do, other classes outplay it, maybe stamplar not (Prolly is after this change)
Ur'e talking about perma healing and zero mobility, but that change doesnt hitting ur class, does it? U still have all of the mobility and healing with heavy armor:

BOL - Aka One heal button to 100% HP.
Purify - Cleanse snare and dmg in one button,
And ure talking about tanks... Do i need to remind u back then at 1.4, u, tanking 20 players and actually killing some?
I'f we're talking about last patches, u know... lmao.

And again, that change not affecting anything vs templar, as all ur dmg is undodgeable.

Biro123 · October 2017

I think the problem has always been Rally. Or more to the point, the lack of other healing options - forcing soo many stam builds to have to use Rally.

The fact that Rally is used so much.. even though it has another morph that removes snares, just makes me think that there needs to be another healing option - then you can choose.. Med can have shuffle And rally (for more survivability) - heavy can get fwd momentum and a lesser burst heal - but has more resistances etc.. or can forego the snare-removal for rally and be a stronger tank, but much less mobile.

In one way, its a bit like trying to make a magsorc without shields... with poor hots, no burst heal and no snare-removal - how can you survive?

amir412 · October 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

I think the problem has always been Rally. Or more to the point, the lack of other healing options - forcing soo many stam builds to have to use Rally.

The fact that Rally is used so much.. even though it has another morph that removes snares, just makes me think that there needs to be another healing option - then you can choose.. Med can have shuffle And rally (for more survivability) - heavy can get fwd momentum and a lesser burst heal - but has more resistances etc.. or can forego the snare-removal for rally and be a stronger tank, but much less mobile.

In one way, its a bit like trying to make a magsorc without shields... with poor hots, no burst heal and no snare-removal - how can you survive?

Exactly, Forcing us to run 2h and killing builds diversity.

BohnT · October 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

I will edit thread name: "snare removal from heavy armor tanks". Maybe now people will wear heavy and stop thinking that they will have all tools without restrictions, i.e. reason why ha is fotm.

HA is fotm that's true but even if you nerf it to the ground no one will want to run medium because medium is just so weak against any build because nowadays everything hits while you dodge.
As a medium player you have to avoid damage with dodge and your mobility, shuffle gives you 3.5 seconds of snare immunity when wearing 7 medium.
This was fine when only certain skills applied snares but with the amount of snares that are in the game you have the snares applied to you immediately again.

As medium armor should be the most mobile i think the snare immunity of shuffle should be increased to 6 seconds to be more viable.

For heavy armor there needs to be something to remove snares for 2 seconds it shouldn't be as long as medium armor snare immunity but if you have a >50% snare on you there is no way of getting away from a zerg.
With heavy you are slow meaning that even without snares, the zerg will get you often if you don't play very clever.
But with snares no matter how good you are with LoS and getting away you die 100% of the time.

This is why HA deserves a snare removal that shouldn't be too long (2 seconds maximum) and that's not as expensive as maneuver because you simply can't use a skill for 8.1k stam.

Zer0oo · October 2017

What about all magica classes?

Vesper_BR · October 2017

Why don't give Immovable snare reducing and maybe one morph snare removal?

BohnT · October 2017

Zer0oo wrote: »

What about all magica classes?

Mist form and purge although it could get a slight cost decrease.

technohic · October 2017

Yeah I get where not having a way to remove snares at a reasonable cost is an issue on heavy; but I think that was the point. To encourage more medium armor use. Problem is; they've done nothing to help survivability in medium with undodgeable attacks and regen drains without constitution drains, and have not addressed what keeps heavy able to do so much damage.

Outside of that, snares are too strong. I'm not sure about immunity as it's one of the few ways to slow a Zerg to hit them with siege; but effectiveness could be reduced. Not sure there should be more than a 30-40% max on how much you can get slowed

Chilly-McFreeze · October 2017

amir412 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I think the problem has always been Rally. Or more to the point, the lack of other healing options - forcing soo many stam builds to have to use Rally.

The fact that Rally is used so much.. even though it has another morph that removes snares, just makes me think that there needs to be another healing option - then you can choose.. Med can have shuffle And rally (for more survivability) - heavy can get fwd momentum and a lesser burst heal - but has more resistances etc.. or can forego the snare-removal for rally and be a stronger tank, but much less mobile.

In one way, its a bit like trying to make a magsorc without shields... with poor hots, no burst heal and no snare-removal - how can you survive?

Exactly, Forcing us to run 2h and killing builds diversity.

This. So, I can put my two axes back on the bank and go heavy armor, 2h (FM) + Resto (ulti) for my stam toon. Great.