Snare removal for stam toons

Valencer

As far as I know, most people run Shuffle for the snare/root removal. Major Evasion is just a bonus (I know I personally never cared for relying on a RNG mechanic for defense)

Essentially, every heavy armour stamina build gets forced into running 2h with forward momentum now. I have no love for the heavy armour tank meta but all this change will do is force every heavy armour stamina build to run 2h with 1h+s because they all have to give up the rally burst heal now...

Running Rally simply isnt an option anymore if you dont want to get run over by a zerg. So, next update every heavy armour build will be specced even tankier (to make up for the lack of a burst heal) and other options like heavy armour 2h/bow won't be viable anymore. It honestly sounds like an even worse meta in the making.

Sure, run medium armour and then realise it's absolutely horrible on anything that's not a stamblade because roll dodge working reliably versus all single target abilities is so 2016. This change just seems designed to make it even easier for people to get zerged down. At least ZOS is consistent

scipionumatia

Obvious fix is obvious
Buff immovable (heavy skill)- remove major ward/resolve. every class has access to class abilities that give this already that have longer duration and are better. instead add minor protection, keep immunity to knockback and snares, AND remove snares on cast.
Immovable brute- copy the above, keep the morph bonus as is "break free costs less based on heavy armor equipped"
Unstoppable- Copy above, keep morph bonus as is "duration increased based on heavy armor equipped"

Fixed. with bonuses that help mag and stam heavy armor users.
Only class where this change will be petty is warden because ice fortress already gives minor protection. But that's ok, for heavy armor wardens simply opt for expansive cloak, reducing the cost and increasing the radius. For Med/Light wardens continue to use Ice fortress.

SodanTok

Maybe it's time to address the utter lack of healing? Nearly all medium stam builds are literally forced to run one specific morph on one specific skill on one specific weapon to compete.

IAVITNI

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

could give them the streak treatment.

Not a fan of the streak treatment. If they implement major and minor snares it would be much easier to balance. Damage dealing skills would at most apply minor snare at 10%. So skills like stampede, and rending slashes. Skills like hidden blade and low slash should either have their snare or damage, not both. Hidden blade could deal say, 1k tooltip but apply major snare at 30%. A set like tremor scale would theoretically be fine applying Major Snare as it is a huge opportunity cost.

For immobilizations, honestly just increase the immunity out of dodge roll. Most already, have a high cost. I don't play magicka nb but I wouldn't want Crippling to get an increasing cost. A 5 second snare immunity is fair imo, or whatever the duration of dodge roll increased cost is.

At first I was against Heavy not having easy access to snare immunity but it does somewhat balance it with medium. If anything, I'd say decrease the cost of Charging Maneuvers to around 4k, have it only remove/grant snare/immobilize and grant Minor Expedition to the caster. Nobody really uses this morph anyways. The Major Expedition can stay the same. This would also alleviate the pain of having Rapid slaves. Maybe, also change the name to Selfish Maneuvers xD

That said, I'd prefer if they just buffed medium. Innate Impen on medium should really just be a thing as a starting point.

kookster wrote: »

Some other possible solutions:
1) For stamDK make green dragon blood actually worth while in pvp for a stamDK. Magicka does not use this skill. And the 33% is horrible. Also make it so its a stam morph. Magicka is really limited on stam builds.

I currently use green dragon blood on live with Forward Momentum and dropped Shuffle in anticipation of CWC. The 33% is a little low yes, but i have survived 8ish players wailing on me and I'm wearing a gear setup meant for my stam sorc. TBH this skill is worthwhile, it just isn't meta. I agree that it is slightly undertuned but Major Fortitude and Minor Vitality are nothing to scoff at. IMO, adding a 2 second HoT after the initial cast would actually make this a better heal than Rally if built right. No comment on the change to stamina cost. Sometimes I love having my big heal on my off pool but other times I'm all "wtf". Either or is manageable imo.

PathwayM

I'm so happy to see all these heavy armor builds die... RIP

You guys know there is a simple solution to your problem... Run medium armor...

"but mom tell zos to give my heavy armor build back it's medium armor skill..."

I love all the qq'ing from all the players that crutch on heavy armor...

#forwardmomentumordie

xaraan

Everyone has pointed out the tools are there. But they should also tool back snares in the game. Too many common things snare you, even normal attacks. It's a bad setup.

Chilly-McFreeze

PathwayM wrote: »

I'm so happy to see all these heavy armor builds die... RIP

You guys know there is a simple solution to your problem... Run medium armor...

"but mom tell zos to give my heavy armor build back it's medium armor skill..."

I love all the qq'ing from all the players that crutch on heavy armor...

#forwardmomentumordie

Spoken like a true magican.

Dymence

Welcome to magicka life I guess?

Thogard

If you thought it was annoying trying to chase down a nightblade that tried to gank you and failed, just wait until this patch.

I like the thought behind this but I don't think ZOS has thought out how this would work. It's not like you need to log on to PTS to test this - just unslot shuffle on live and have fun being absolutely miserable while NBs run in circles around you and mag classes blow you up.

Stam blades wearing heavy will become a thing.

KingJ

templesus wrote: »

Use retreating maneuvers after CC break. Unchained passive op. Case closed.

It breaks if you heal yourself or deal damage to someone and you will just be snared again right aftrr you use it.

KingJ

This change is just stupid its not gonna force people to run meduim because meduim sucks balls.

Zer0oo

Remove snare removal all together and let everyone enjoy the how it is to move 90% slower!

Drakkdjinn

Forward Momentum - opportunity cost of losing stam's only burst heal.

Rapids - one of the most expensive Stam skills in the game.

The rest are magicka based and come with either DMg reduction or reduced cost+efficiency.

The shuffle change is warranted, but it's A) not the right change/not strong enough to make medium attractive and buffs snares, which nobody who actually PvPs has ever asked for.

This is what happens when the devs management don't give them a PvP budget or give responsibility to a Seb with actual PvP knowledge ; uninformed changes.

scipionumatia

Problem with running medium is the game is so laggy and medium doesn't allow you to recover. If you lag while using medium even for a fraction of a second your likely dead. Many pvpers use heavy because we don't want to play horse rider simulator. If medium gets good survivability the way heavy does (by armor and resistances) or light (shield stacking) then by all means you'd see more medium players. Increase med dodge chance 30-60% of all incoming attacks or grant guarantee dodge on certain attacks. You'll see more medium players in pvp.

Alendrin

I'm wondering if any the the people who feel shuffle is the only skill option they can use on their heavy armor build have looked within the vast trade space of sets, mundus, enchantments, etc. to see if they can find a 2H5M build that gives them the same tankiness, health, offense, and sustain they require?

Valencer

Alendrin wrote: »

I'm wondering if any the the people who feel shuffle is the only skill option they can use on their heavy armor build have looked within the vast trade space of sets, mundus, enchantments, etc. to see if they can find a 2H5M build that gives them the same tankiness, health, offense, and sustain they require?

Yes, and the answer is "no". I played medium armour sDK up until morrowind - It's not viable anymore as wardens laugh at every kind of defense mechanic aside from damage shields (birds and shalks both ignore dodge roll) and soul assault is even more brutal to block since they nerfed block.

Wearing medium armour now on a class that can't cloak is like shooting yourself in the foot. Next update all youll see in PvP in terms of stamina builds is 1) stamblades 2) even tankier 1h+s / 2h forward momentum heavy armour builds and 3) people who run in a zerg and dont have to give a crap about getting snared/rooted anyway

Alendrin

Valencer wrote: »

Alendrin wrote: »

I'm wondering if any the the people who feel shuffle is the only skill option they can use on their heavy armor build have looked within the vast trade space of sets, mundus, enchantments, etc. to see if they can find a 2H5M build that gives them the same tankiness, health, offense, and sustain they require?

Yes, and the answer is "no". I played medium armour sDK up until morrowind - It's not viable anymore as wardens laugh at every kind of defense mechanic aside from damage shields (birds and shalks both ignore dodge roll) and soul assault is even more brutal to block since they nerfed block.

Wearing medium armour now on a class that can't cloak is like shooting yourself in the foot. Next update all youll see in PvP in terms of stamina builds is 1) stamblades 2) even tankier 1h+s / 2h forward momentum heavy armour builds and 3) people who run in a zerg and dont have to give a crap about getting snared/rooted anyway

Well I've been spending a lot of time in the UESP build editor fiddling with mundus, set changes, and jewelry enchantments to match health, offensive output, sustain, and damage mitigation on new 2H5M builds to existing heavy armor PVP builds that I use. If you can get those 4 things to match closely and have accounted for the changes associated with loss of old passives and gaining new ones, what else is there? I am missing something? I wasn't even thinking about dodge roll.

Drakkdjinn

Dymence wrote: »

Welcome to magicka life I guess?

You already have two better snare counters than stam, you're own fault if you've been too shortsighted to use them.

Dymence

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Welcome to magicka life I guess?

You already have two better snare counters than stam, you're own fault if you've been too shortsighted to use them.

Like? I assume you're talking about purge and mist form?

Soris

I think heavy armor stamina builds can utilize elusive mist as a snare/root breaker and dmg reduction. Think like it is your cloak. It isn't as bad as you think, it's actually viable.

Dymence

It's simple really. Want your shuffle, play medium armor. Magicka can't use annulment anymore either with heavy armor builds.

KingJ

Dymence wrote: »

It's simple really. Want your shuffle, play medium armor. Magicka can't use annulment anymore either with heavy armor builds.

You can run heavy armor magic build without harness no problem its not a issue.Even than light armor is in a why better spot than meduim. Just running meduim is easy to say but meduim is in a horrible spot in pvp right now.

Drakkdjinn

Dymence wrote: »

It's simple really. Want your shuffle, play medium armor. Magicka can't use annulment anymore either with heavy armor builds.

We simply want snare removal for stam that doesn't pigeonhole build diversity - we're not going shuffle or bust - and that sentiment's pretty obvious if you're actually reviewing this thread.

D- for reading comprehension -- see me after class.

Dymence

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

It's simple really. Want your shuffle, play medium armor. Magicka can't use annulment anymore either with heavy armor builds.

We simply want snare removal for stam that doesn't pigeonhole build diversity - we're not going shuffle or bust - and that sentiment's pretty obvious if you're actually reviewing this thread.

D- for reading comprehension -- see me after class.

And yet magicka builds are pigeonholed into being vamps with mist form to have any decent form of snare removal.

There are magicka nightblade builds out there that run a 2 hander with forward momentum just to have another means of snare removal. That's how ridiculous it is. And yet you want it all.

IAVITNI

Dymence wrote: »

There are magicka nightblade builds out there that run a 2 hander with forward momentum just to have another means of snare removal. That's how ridiculous it is. And yet you want it all.

I love these builds

Drakkdjinn

So ask for a snare tool with Stam/mag morphs idgaf

Valencer

Dymence wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

It's simple really. Want your shuffle, play medium armor. Magicka can't use annulment anymore either with heavy armor builds.

We simply want snare removal for stam that doesn't pigeonhole build diversity - we're not going shuffle or bust - and that sentiment's pretty obvious if you're actually reviewing this thread.

D- for reading comprehension -- see me after class.

And yet magicka builds are pigeonholed into being vamps with mist form to have any decent form of snare removal.

There are magicka nightblade builds out there that run a 2 hander with forward momentum just to have another means of snare removal. That's how ridiculous it is. And yet you want it all.

Magicka Sorcerers are probably the best kiters in the game and they dont need to slot any ability that removes snares or roots. You're just being incredibly shortsighted here.

Zer0oo

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Welcome to magicka life I guess?

You already have two better snare counters than stam, you're own fault if you've been too shortsighted to use them.

Not really, purge just removes 2 random debuffs and is really expensive and does not prevent you from getting snared right afterwards.

Mist form(not too cheap + no mag regen): you just can move without being affected by snares as long as you are in mist form as soon as you go out of mist form you can get snared again.


There is no magica skill that gives snare immunity.

technohic

What did shuffle actually give for snare immunity? 2.5 seconds, 3.5 if all medium?

End of the day; I don't think having ways to remove or prevent snares is nearly as big of issue of the fact that there are so many snares and they go way too high in effectiveness.

Izaki

I think that every class should have 1 skill that has a snare removal component.