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Change to Sorcerer Dark Magic Ability Rune Prison & Its Morps
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Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭Right, sorcs dont use their lightning form, posions or a firestaff in pvp. Doesnt matter. you say it yourself, you already have hard cc's, why should zos copy a dk skill with more range and give it to sorcs. A more reliable cc (without damage though) to be exact.1 -
Pastas✭✭✭Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.
What can a sorc do with the new rune prison what he couldn't already do with the old one?
I mean, the old one was a disorient that went through block, the new one is a stun that goes through block. Literally the only difference between them is that the new one does not break on damage. But since everyone uses break free anyway as soon as they get CC-ed, for all practical purposes they function identically.
Take the meteor+frag+curse on a stunned target. You can already do that with the old rune prison, except the target is disoriented instead of stunned. The practical difference is null.
The new Rune Prison goes through dodge.
Thats a big boost for the skill IMO.
Edited by Pastas on September 25, 2017 12:05PMWARNINGThis post may Include horrible gramatical and orthographic errorsRead on your own riskAD
Dar'foo Stamblade Zorg-gro-Wurf DK tank Far-Datxo Templar healer Valmir Spellius Magsorc
Randolf Omberic Magblade Felien Golas Magdk Faenor Oakwood Stamplar Sader Dustorm Stamsorc
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DC
Melkar Spellius MagdenPC EU2 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.
What can a sorc do with the new rune prison what he couldn't already do with the old one?
I mean, the old one was a disorient that went through block, the new one is a stun that goes through block. Literally the only difference between them is that the new one does not break on damage. But since everyone uses break free anyway as soon as they get CC-ed, for all practical purposes they function identically.
Take the meteor+frag+curse on a stunned target. You can already do that with the old rune prison, except the target is disoriented instead of stunned. The practical difference is null.
The new Rune Prison goes through dodge
That's the biggie, and the sole reason why I don't think it should change.Minalan owes me a beer.
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Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Right, sorcs dont use their lightning form, posions or a firestaff in pvp. Doesnt matter. you say it yourself, you already have hard cc's, why should zos copy a dk skill with more range and give it to sorcs. A more reliable cc (without damage though) to be exact.
Also i forgot to mention the rune prison doesn't break on dot.
And i think it is already undodgeable and unblockable(but haven't used is lately).
So? What was your point?
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus0 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmm that a stun is more powerful than a disorient?
And sorcs dont need the most reliable stun in the game.Edited by Checkmath on September 25, 2017 12:16PM0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Are people not familiar with the concept of CC immunity?
Anything that implies a stun-lock is a bug.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
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Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shadowshire wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
From OP #18 in the PTS Patch Notes v 3.2.0 (Clockwork City)
Good intentions, but incomplete implementation (to characterize it politely).Sorcerer
Dark Magic
....
Rune Prison: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5-second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets.
Rune Cage (Rune Prison morph): This morph now deals damage to the enemy if the stun lasts its full duration.
The Defensive Rune morph continues to place a buff on you that will stun the next enemy that damages you.
Developer Comments: Similar to Petrify, we wanted to change this disorient into a stun while retaining its current functionality to make useful in more situations.
Without a cool-down of at least 5 - 10 seconds following each usage, a Sorcerer can effectively cast Rune Prison repeatedly at the same target, keeping the target stunned until the target is killed.
Even with a cool-down that is too short, two or more Sorcerers will coordinate their casting of Rune Prison so that when the Rune Prison stun cast by one expires, the other casts Rune Prison to stun the target again as soon as possible. (I am not familiar with Petrify, so whether it can be used in the same way, or in this combination with the new Rune Prison, I don't know.)
"Chain stunning" should never be possible in the course of play, especially in PvP. It is a fundamentally unfair strategy which essentially renders the opposing player helpless. It is tantamount to kicking them out of the game.
So, I recommend the following:
(1) Implement a "cool-down" for Rune Prison of at least 5 - 10 seconds so that it cannot be used against the same player character, or against multiple player characters, in rapid succession.
(2) Alternatively: a player character stunned by Rune Prison should be immune to further stuns by Rune Prison for at least 5 - 10 seconds after the stun expires.
(3) It should be possible for a player character to dodge the Rune Prison stun, and "blocking" the caster disrupts and prevents casting Rune Prison (whether other Magicka abilities also) while the player character blocks.
FWIW: Blizzard Entertainment permitted "chain stunning" in World of Warcraft for a very long time, until the continuous barrage of protests and complaints from players eventually persuaded the developers to swallow their pride and introduce mitigations.
By the way, the reason that Rune Prison is not used much is that the disorient is broken if and when the target receives any damage any direct damage. First, I would bet that probably every dungeon boss, if not also at least one whole class of mobs, is immune to Rune Prison. Second, it can be difficult to avoid damaging the imprisoned NPC or player character, for example, while initiating an ability that has an AoE. Third, in any given group at any given time, ordinarily there is some knucklehead who does not, perhaps cannot, recognize the Rune Prison -- or doesn't care -- and does something to damage the prisoner (whether intentionally or accidentally).
Thank-you for your time and attention to this matter. Not that I actually believe that the ZOS developers will do anything to change their implementation before the software is released "live". But if they do change it, that doesn't mean that the change will be in the software that is released "live".
As soon as the 2.5 second stun is over or broken free you get 7 seconds of CC immunity. Unless of course there's a bug in which case you should be reporting it in-game and in the forum bug section. No point in complaining about the "way it was implemented" since its just a bug that still has about 3 weeks to be fixed.@ Izaki #PCEU
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Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think we are already past that point. Several people already stated, that one can only cc somebody every 7 seconds. We are talking about the issue, that rune cage will be an unblockable, undodgeable stun (not only a disorient) and if sorcs really need that.0 -
UppGRAYxDD✭✭✭✭✭
✭I see a lot of rune prison, frag, meteor combos in the future...."Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."0 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is now a nerf sorc thread(aka pvp Q.Q thread and occasional pve dunno ppl always think sorcs are op everywhere)
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Hmm that a stun is more powerful than a disorient?
And sorcs dont need the most reliable stun in the game.
I think that's the wrong reason.
Your average sorc already has 2 stuns on his bar with streak and frag (3 if you count dawnbreaker or meteor) Adding a stun (with a 7-sec immunity) to setups which already use abilities which stun more than every 7 seconds won't change anything.
The issue isn't that its changed to a stun, but that it becomes undodgeable imho.
Edited by Biro123 on September 25, 2017 12:32PMMinalan owes me a beer.
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STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Shadowshire wrote: »
There is no mention of being immune after being stunned in the Patch Notes, and I don't recall that it is in the tooltip for the changed ability, either. Your reply is the first in this discussion, so your allegation that "someone already tried to explain to you" is simply hostile, irrelevant, and stupid ad hominem rhetoric which has no merit.grannas211 wrote: »....
Also someone already tried to explain to you that you are immune to further 7 seconds after being stunned.
By the way, although I seldom engage in TESO PvP, both of my main characters are Sorcerers, and have no axe to grind with regard to any particular character Class. I have used the current implementation of Rune Prison in PvE, and have found it to be a waste of a space on the Ability Bar for the reasons that I stated.
That said,, I had plenty of experience with PvP in World of Warcraft,, where almost every class had a "stun" ability and "chain stunning" became a customary routine. I suppose that it appeals to the sadistic fetish of some players who delight in inflicting pain and suffering upon a victim while that other person cannot avoid it, stop it, or fight back. Of course, the sadist has very little fear of suffering any adverse consequences for their actions. There's something about the ordinary anonymity of being "online" that brings out the worst in many people -- all the more when the context is a fantasy instead of the reality in which the flesh lives. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
RE the bold - yes, yes, sadly this is true... but thank you for making it clear with your post!
My view on the changes is that the game has shifted even more to a DoT-centric gameplay outside of the narrow burst-or-die areas of content. As such, long disorients have much less use now than before. moving some/all of them to shorter stuns that provoke immunity makes a lot of sense especially in the post-morrowind sustain game.
So i am happy with the change and wish they would expand it to other disorients which have similar issues - like scatter-shot.
Edited by STEVIL on September 25, 2017 12:39PMProudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
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"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I need a galleon of water after reading the thread. Too much salt in here.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭Its just zos again doing same stuff like always. They take un unused skill and make it either unusable again or they buff it to the top skills of a kind.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.
What can a sorc do with the new rune prison what he couldn't already do with the old one?
I mean, the old one was a disorient that went through block, the new one is a stun that goes through block. Literally the only difference between them is that the new one does not break on damage. But since everyone uses break free anyway as soon as they get CC-ed, for all practical purposes they function identically.
Take the meteor+frag+curse on a stunned target. You can already do that with the old rune prison, except the target is disoriented instead of stunned. The practical difference is null.
The new Rune Prison goes through dodge.
Thats a big boost for the skill IMO.
I'd like to see this confirmed. Not that the new one goes through dodge, but rather that the old one doesn't. Because it's a disorient, like petrify, and that one does go through dodge.
However In all my PvPing since beta, i don't remember ever being hit by the ability (only by the defensive morph) so i don't actually have any experience whether it is dodgeable or not.Edited by Sharee on September 25, 2017 2:06PM0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.
What can a sorc do with the new rune prison what he couldn't already do with the old one?
I mean, the old one was a disorient that went through block, the new one is a stun that goes through block. Literally the only difference between them is that the new one does not break on damage. But since everyone uses break free anyway as soon as they get CC-ed, for all practical purposes they function identically.
Take the meteor+frag+curse on a stunned target. You can already do that with the old rune prison, except the target is disoriented instead of stunned. The practical difference is null.
The new Rune Prison goes through dodge.
Thats a big boost for the skill IMO.
I'd like to see this confirmed. Not that the new one goes through dodge, but rather that the old one doesn't. Because it's a disorient, like petrify, and that one does go through dodge.
However In all my PvPing since beta, i don't remember ever being hit by the ability (only by the defensive morph) so i don't actually have any experience whether it is dodgeable or not.
I haven't tested it recently, but I at least know that Rune Cage used to be dodgeable since at least Imperial City, whereas Defensive Rune has been undodgeable since it was introduced.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Exactely, the difference is the free breaking free if you get dameged. In a real fight, the old skill is not used, because there is always damage around. Poison and all dots already break the base skill and even a light attack breaks the morph on live. Thats why a real stun like frags, streak and the atro are reliable and therefore used. To make it a reall hard cc is something different and a bit too much for a sorc.
Thanks, Captain. Next time I use Frags or an Ultimate on my OP stam sorc for a ranged stun.0 -
Alpheu5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.
What can a sorc do with the new rune prison what he couldn't already do with the old one?
I mean, the old one was a disorient that went through block, the new one is a stun that goes through block. Literally the only difference between them is that the new one does not break on damage. But since everyone uses break free anyway as soon as they get CC-ed, for all practical purposes they function identically.
Take the meteor+frag+curse on a stunned target. You can already do that with the old rune prison, except the target is disoriented instead of stunned. The practical difference is null.
The new Rune Prison goes through dodge.
Thats a big boost for the skill IMO.
I'd like to see this confirmed. Not that the new one goes through dodge, but rather that the old one doesn't. Because it's a disorient, like petrify, and that one does go through dodge.
However In all my PvPing since beta, i don't remember ever being hit by the ability (only by the defensive morph) so i don't actually have any experience whether it is dodgeable or not.
I tested it with a friend about a day after the patch was put up since I wasn't sure if it was already possible, and you can dodge Rune on live. Otherwise the functionality is nearly identical due to people already breaking free as soon as they get pinned down.Dalek-Rok - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Shād - Argonian Nightblade || Dalek-Shul - Argonian Templar || Dalek-Xal - Argonian Dragonknight || Mounts-the-Snout - Argonian Warden || Dalek-Xul - Argonian Necromancer || Two-Spires - Argonian Arcanist || Dalek-Nesh - Argonian Sorcerer || Dalek-Kör - Argonian DragonknightJudas Helviaryn wrote: »Don't incorporate bugs into your builds, and you won't have [an] issue.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.
What can a sorc do with the new rune prison what he couldn't already do with the old one?
I mean, the old one was a disorient that went through block, the new one is a stun that goes through block. Literally the only difference between them is that the new one does not break on damage. But since everyone uses break free anyway as soon as they get CC-ed, for all practical purposes they function identically.
Take the meteor+frag+curse on a stunned target. You can already do that with the old rune prison, except the target is disoriented instead of stunned. The practical difference is null.
The new Rune Prison goes through dodge.
Thats a big boost for the skill IMO.
I'd like to see this confirmed. Not that the new one goes through dodge, but rather that the old one doesn't. Because it's a disorient, like petrify, and that one does go through dodge.
However In all my PvPing since beta, i don't remember ever being hit by the ability (only by the defensive morph) so i don't actually have any experience whether it is dodgeable or not.
I tested it with a friend about a day after the patch was put up since I wasn't sure if it was already possible, and you can dodge Rune on live. Otherwise the functionality is nearly identical due to people already breaking free as soon as they get pinned down.
Interesting. I wonder however whether that was an intended functionality, since i believe things that just "appear on target" generally cannot be dodged (like sorcerer curse, templar bubble, DK petrify, NB mark etc. etc.), as opposed to attacks which "travel from attacker to target and make contact"(like a sword swing, a projectile, etc.) which can.
Another circumstantial evidence pointing to this is that the PTS patch notes do not explicitly state that "this ability can no longer be dodged", making it look like ZOS wasn't aware of this particular change(or rather, the previous functionality).Edited by Sharee on September 25, 2017 7:59PM1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Killset
"Many people" being the noobs that get killed by Sorcs and then come QQing on the forums. No thanks, the forum is not an acceptable place for meaningful balance discussions, because everyone has a voice.
I'm defending the "training wheels class" because it's already one dimensional as it is, and especially so in noCP. I still remember the time when Sorcs were the laughingstock of Cyrodiil and only used for negates. I don't think it's good going back there. And if you look at most "balancing" suggestions by "most people" you'd see how utterly ridiculous those are.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Killset✭✭✭✭@Killset
"Many people" being the noobs that get killed by Sorcs and then come QQing on the forums. No thanks, the forum is not an acceptable place for meaningful balance discussions, because everyone has a voice.
I'm defending the "training wheels class" because it's already one dimensional as it is, and especially so in noCP. I still remember the time when Sorcs were the laughingstock of Cyrodiil and only used for negates. I don't think it's good going back there. And if you look at most "balancing" suggestions by "most people" you'd see how utterly ridiculous those are.
If you are having any issues on a Sorc you need to reexamine who the noob is. If you are worried that the easy mode gravy train might derail then you should be. Because Sorcs were weak once is not an argument that they remain overpowered now.
1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Killset
"Many people" being the noobs that get killed by Sorcs and then come QQing on the forums. No thanks, the forum is not an acceptable place for meaningful balance discussions, because everyone has a voice.
I'm defending the "training wheels class" because it's already one dimensional as it is, and especially so in noCP. I still remember the time when Sorcs were the laughingstock of Cyrodiil and only used for negates. I don't think it's good going back there. And if you look at most "balancing" suggestions by "most people" you'd see how utterly ridiculous those are.
If you are having any issues on a Sorc you need to reexamine who the noob is. If you are worried that the easy mode gravy train might derail then you should be. Because Sorcs were weak once is not an argument that they remain overpowered now.
Usual forum trash talk. I don't waste any more time on this. ZOS will take away, or will give, regardless of the forum. That much is sure at least.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Killset✭✭✭✭@Killset
"Many people" being the noobs that get killed by Sorcs and then come QQing on the forums. No thanks, the forum is not an acceptable place for meaningful balance discussions, because everyone has a voice.
I'm defending the "training wheels class" because it's already one dimensional as it is, and especially so in noCP. I still remember the time when Sorcs were the laughingstock of Cyrodiil and only used for negates. I don't think it's good going back there. And if you look at most "balancing" suggestions by "most people" you'd see how utterly ridiculous those are.
If you are having any issues on a Sorc you need to reexamine who the noob is. If you are worried that the easy mode gravy train might derail then you should be. Because Sorcs were weak once is not an argument that they remain overpowered now.
Usual forum trash talk. I don't waste any more time on this. ZOS will take away, or will give, regardless of the forum. That much is sure at least.
Fair enough! Remember that next time you spout off about needing a gallon of water for the salty tears, blah, blah, blah. And spell gallon right if you are going to try to roast someone.
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