Satiar wrote: »

Of course Fengresh thinks zergs are killing the game....

The map is literally made for zergs. The problem is we don’t have enough and the server couldn’t handle it if we did.

zyk wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

ZOS, you, me, no one.... No one will stop players from zerging in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was in fact created to cater to three large opposing groups duking it out in a royal rumble brawl. That's just fact. ZOS can tweak skills, CP, aoe caps, etc. I guarantee it will not matter, players will naturally form large groups and run around. We have duels and battlegrounds now. Battlegrounds is getting CP enabled also with coming DLC.

This isn't true. I know because I've recently read interviews with ZOS devs preceding and following the launch of ESO. AvA was supposed to be FAR more nuanced than you describe with opportunities for great solo, small group and large group play.

It's pretty clear to me that after the poor launch of ESO, ZOS scrambled to reinvent the game. When they did so, I believe the decision was made to put Cyrodiil on life support. They probably felt like they were dealing with an existential crisis and that justified all decisions, no matter how contentious -- and probably heartbreaking to them, as they had to abandon some of their original vision for the game.

I haven't given up hope though. IMO, one of the reasons ZOS is so bad as an online dev is because they work like a single player game design team. Massive changes come all at once every few months. Good online game design, IMO, relies heavily on highly iterative design processes. It sometimes takes ZOS years to correct a significant mistake.

However, the above is the silver lining I am clinging to. Because ZOS works the way they do, if a Cyrodiil revamp is to happen, it might be slow coming because it could be very big. ...but I writing this knowing I am grasping at straws.

Whatever the case may be, we deserve an update from @ZOS_BrianWheeler to set expectations for what's to come. If this is as good as it gets, tell us so we can move on.

geonsocal wrote: »

no doubt one day logging in to cyrodiil will feel an awful lot like:

ezeepeezee wrote: »

MADshadowman_ wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

ZOS, you, me, no one.... No one will stop players from zerging in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil was in fact created to cater to three large opposing groups duking it out in a royal rumble brawl. That's just fact. ZOS can tweak skills, CP, aoe caps, etc. I guarantee it will not matter, players will naturally form large groups and run around. We have duels and battlegrounds now. Battlegrounds is getting CP enabled also with coming DLC.

This isn't true. I know because I've recently read interviews with ZOS devs preceding and following the launch of ESO. AvA was supposed to be FAR more nuanced than you describe with opportunities for great solo, small group and large group play.

It's pretty clear to me that after the poor launch of ESO, ZOS scrambled to reinvent the game. When they did so, I believe the decision was made to put Cyrodiil on life support. They probably felt like they were dealing with an existential crisis and that justified all decisions, no matter how contentious -- and probably heartbreaking to them, as they had to abandon some of their original vision for the game.

I haven't given up hope though. IMO, one of the reasons ZOS is so bad as an online dev is because they work like a single player game design team. Massive changes come all at once every few months. Good online game design, IMO, relies heavily on highly iterative design processes. It sometimes takes ZOS years to correct a significant mistake.

However, the above is the silver lining I am clinging to. Because ZOS works the way they do, if a Cyrodiil revamp is to happen, it might be slow coming because it could be very big. ...but I writing this knowing I am grasping at straws.

Whatever the case may be, we deserve an update from ZOS_BrianWheeler to set expectations for what's to come. If this is as good as it gets, tell us so we can move on.

The ESO marketing material that I saw from back in 2013 and early 2014 showing Cyrodiil off featured zerg battles at keeps. And yeah, techanically in Cyrodiil you can do whatever you please. But the point I am making is if you provide an environment where players can create large groups, or simply by having hundreds of players on three teams, where the objective (a keep) is a focal point, zergs will always naturally occur.

The only way to really stop a zerg would be to uproot all or most of what Cyrodiil is about, in function and form. And to that point, we do have duels and battlegrounds now. Maybe ZOS will expand battlegrounds to feature 8v8 or 5v5, or something. ZOS definitely has options on the table with the battlegrounds system. But in Cyrodiil the real focus should be game performance and freshening things up a bit. The arguments against/for zergs is a waste of time.

the problem aren't the zergs, i don't mind the zergs. The problem is that there is nothing else but zerg fights. Back in the day we had a more solo or small scale friendly environment. It's hard to get that kind of pvp these days without at least 1 zerg getting in your way.

In a pathetic attempt to get some small scale pvp, i sometimes go and take a resource at an enemy keep and wair for players to come and take it back, so i can get the kill and defense AP. But that doesn't really work anymore, cause either you sit there for 15 minutes and nothing happens, or a 30 man zerg shows up immediately and takes the resource back. In both cases you don't get the pvp you were hoping for.

So yeah, zergs have been here since the beginning, but at least we had more options as solo players back in the day.

What you describe, though, is partly a function of the history of what has gone on in Cyrodiil. Back in the day, people used to suspect that a single resource flipping in their territory might be an enemy force mistakenly revealing itself, and would respond in kind. These days, you can rest assured it's just some group of veteran players looking to farm the poor souls who don't know any better - but these days, most do. Nobody wants to chase mister shuffle-rally-trap-DB around a tower anymore, it's stale and irritating.

In my opinion, what needs to happen is hinted at by @zyk,
-
I believe resources production was supposed to somehow matter and I assume the mages casting in front of the portals in keep towers were supposed to be for more than scenery. The same goes for the robust map. We are playing an unfinished game.
-
This isn't as hard to fix as it seems. Look at how the otick change has modified player behaviour...
-

Basically, Cyrodiil was designed with a meta-level RTS-style gameplay in mind. You can actually affect the rate at which resources level up by killing the dudes that are meandering around stacking wood and stuff. While nifty, it's inconsequential, which is unfortunate because the level of depth that could be achieved by actually fleshing that out in conjunction with building a team could be extremely engaging and deep. But there is no incentive.

If gameplay in Cyrodiil is to be changed, it has to be incentivized to change in a direction the devs want it to change in. It's clear to me that they are aware of this. They made it plain that they were aware of it when they added merchants to the towns that sell boxes for gear, but are only accessible if your alliance owns the town. That is exactly the right way to draw people to the place; it's just that the actual incentive is not worthwhile because once you have the gear you want you're done. It's not a lasting incentive, and if it were there would be necessary, consumable things being sold at those towns.

The same thing could be done, as was done with the towns, all over Cyrodiil. Large capture areas that are actually territories, that contribute somehow to the overall fight. If there was a large region that could be controlled, or have control lost, simply by the presence of players, that alone would incentivize people to move through those areas, trying to find each other, and spawning the kinds of engagements people are asking for. And from my perspective - obviously I'm not an MMO dev, but I have worked on games before - this would be a relatively simple change. Perhaps the capture area would have to be spherical due to the nature of the 'capture' entity, but nonetheless I think it could be achieved.

Anyway, overall the point is that the gameplay is influenced only by incentive. The more difficult the prize is to get, the harder people will strive to get it. Competition for those things are what keep PVPers interested in the game. But contrary to what others have said, my impression is that PVPers actually do contribute a decent chunk of the revenue. I can name a number of PVPers I have seen throughout my years playing, that play consistently. PVErs come and go, and I don't think I know a single pure-PVE player that has stuck around. In fact I have seen many of them leave. Only PVP is enough to engage the people who would otherwise disengage, because fighting a computer will never compare to fighting another person.

Simple changes to Cyrodiil to make it worthwhile for more than just the people who are there to fight for the sake of fighting could improve this game's longevity by quite a lot. Many games that offer good PVP (e.g. the Source engine - Half-Life 2 / Counter Strike / Team Fortress 2) have been around for what, over a decade? This game could be like that, easily.

But does it want to?