Business of addiction: How the games industry is learning from casinos

Tavore1138 · September 2017

I sort of agree with the broad strokes of what you are saying - I am not one who thinks people should have infinite do overs when they screw up. I think it is good that we recognise that some weakness is inbuilt and provide support for people to beat their problems.

But I also feel that once you know what that weakness is there is a duty on the person to do their best to avoid it. I think a lot of people feel that way and you can see it in celeb gossip news where the first trip to rehab will get a 'good for them, good luck' response but the second or third repetition will not be so positively received. And generally we are a lot less forgiving when the supposed weakness causes more serious crime - no-one gets off murder charges by claiming they are genetically predisposed to kill (at least I really hope not).

I too don't like people just using biology to excuse being rubbish human beings - but I think that is not as common as certain areas of the press and politicians would have us believe. The narrative all of those lazy people making excuses is a good excuse for politicians instead of admitting to having made lousy decisions for decades and having no clue how to fix things.

I think where we differ is in how we view people taking deliberate steps to play on those weaknesses (would you be fine with a beer company obtaining lists of AA members and sending them out free beer sampler packs for example?) - we all know the drug dealing approach of offering a little hit of something for free, often to kids, knowing that some will enjoy that hit so much they will be much more likely to take a second, no longer free... and a third... and so on...

If companies are hiring experts in addiction to make their products more addictive and to tailor how micro transactions work so they trigger chemical reactions that give pleasure that people come to associate with those transactions - well that's smart business isn't it? Business is pretty amoral generally - it's goal, it's duty is to maximise profits.

And that's why they need regulating - because companies unchecked will act in any way to maximise profit and without laws to control that then they will go to sometimes horrible lengths to do that. Just consider how many laws around business have been preceded by some massive scandal about what that industry does and come into place because people find those actions to be unacceptable.

Is the same true of gambling? Well a lot of nations think so and regulate who can run gambling, what type of gambling can be done and who can do it. They accept that unchecked gambling can have an overall bad impact on society not just individuals.

Should it apply to things like gamble crates? I don't know. On one side they are clearly designed to encourage people to spend without considering the consequences, on the other this game is supposed to be adults only so how far should we be protected from our own choices...

The only thing I do know is that my country is looking at this sort of thing and whether it should be regulated - right now the thinking seems to be it should be treated like other gambling so things like odds should be published etc.

IMO that would just be asking one type of gambling to be bound by the same rules as other types of gambling.

Hanokihs · September 2017

Inarre wrote: »

Hey man, good on you, sincerely. Its rough getting past any kind of addiction.

Thank you; I genuinely appreciate the sentiment. It was a rough time.

Inarre wrote: »

While you cant ask people to stop airing alcohol advertisement because you have an alcohol issue, society has already put a "cap" on alcohol use. Alcohol has an age limit in most countries around the world. Thats the sort of thing i mean. Eso technically has an age limit, but ill be damned if it can be enforced in an anonymous paradise like the internet.

To be fair, enforcement of any law is reliant upon other people. Businesses in the alcohol sense have to check IDs. Parents in the game sense are responsible for knowing what their kids are doing and deciding if their interests and actions are acceptable. Any child playing should be mature enough to deal with the game's content, just like any person in a bar should be old enough to drink in it. If not, there are consequences, but it's not the fault of established rules and law; it's the fault of those who weren't enforcing them.

Inarre wrote: »

And yes people will always find a way, game companies and addicts alike. I started smoking cigarettes at age 16, it was illegal for me to both smoke them and buy them, but i found a way around it. That's not to say that the discouragement shouldn't be there for those who are underaged or otherwise incapable of making wise decisions. If anything, having some sort of restriction in place, even if unsuccessful, acts as a warning, a second thought.

Strictly speaking of this game, I assume that's the point of the multiple confirmation screens we have to pass in order to buy anything in the crown store. It warns you of what you're doing, but people train themselves to click past and ignore them. Same with any terms of service on installation; it's a joke that nobody reads it because nobody reads it, give or take a few exceptions.

Inarre wrote: »

Maybe i am expecting too much of humanity *shrugs*. Sure we can say "well they should have a family or someone who should look out for them, they should take a pill, get therapy" not everyone does. I didnt. If you do, great, and they should look out for you. For those that dont, well.... Guess they pay the price for their lack.

They do pay the price, and that's how it has to be. Change and awareness have to come from within the person with the problem, or it never gets fixed. Even if the game tells them to stop, if they're addicted, they won't. And if the game forces them to stop, they'll play another that won't. It's the same with any issue like this. Only when it's no longer worth it will they listen to what people are telling them or stop the destructive behavior; it's a harder road for some than others, but everyone with a problem travels a piece of it at some point.

Inarre wrote: »

What we are discussing now is very different beliefs about what society could and should be. I tend to fall to the idea that society is responsible, to an extent, for people who succumb to addiction. Not everyone shares that view, i respect that.

I agree! But in my eyes, society is responsible for lack of support for those that fall. I think it's impossible to truly prevent it because the tendencies are always there and will inevitably rear their ugly heads; it's some aspects of building back up that could stand to be less painful, while still letting a lesson be learned and internalized.

Inarre wrote: »

I am well aware of what business is and that its designed to prey on people no matter if its the sick, the lusty or the dying. That doesnt mean i cant encourage people and corporations to be better than that. There is the real world, which you are talking about, and an ideal world, which i am talking about. I dont think either of us are wrong.

Ideally, they could do better and be less greedy; that's true. And while I can't see it mattering, being a champion for change, I'm glad at least some people aren't too jaded to keep trying.

danno8 · September 2017

Everyone should take a course in statistics. It will really turn you off of gambling in any way.

I don't gamble. Unsurprisingly I also don't buy extended warranties (this is also gambling, think about it) and of course I don't buy crown crates.

danno8 · September 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

I understand your point @Turelus however its a matter of perception. And I personally don't see the problem in crates any more than I see an issue with every day marketing which is all intended to separate people from their cash with clever tactics.

They are charging a huge premium for items people don't need they just want. If people are willing to pay that much or take the risk thats up to them. And its healthy for the rest if us that the game is profitable as it means longevity

The anti crate argument would stack up if no one bought them i.e. Amazing mounts going to waste but people are. Crate mounts are the most common in the game. Every season sells like hot cakes so as a income generator its working hugely well and enough people are happy with it (rightly or wrongly)

As everything we all agree to differ, I personally have control over impulse and my finances so I'm ok with it all in this game. Others don't and I feel for them but no more about crates than I do then getting sucked into buying the latest Phone or car or exercise thing from a shopping channel! It's all just marketing.

I think at the very least, since we all agree crown crates are a form of gambling cleverly disguised and manipulated to be legal, they should have to include the %chance of all drops included in the crates.

MilwaukeeScott · September 2017

If you're addicted to gambling, get help.

If you're addicted to gambling, stay away from situations that allow gambling.

If you're addicted to gambling, don't try to take my enjoyment away from me just because you have an addiction.

Just like a casino, stay out!

Let us that are not gambling addicts enjoy our occasional roll of the dice.

I'm addicted to cigarettes but I don't blame the tobacco companies. I blame myself.

Iccengi · September 2017

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Seriously don't get the issue people have with a company making money.

Gambling has to be regulated by a government because children are stupid and don't understand it and fall for it.
All of these games with crates are offering gambling services to children, and the ONLY reason they are not getting punished is because this generation of lawmakers is too incompetent to understand that there is this digital gambling going on. Do you understand what the issue is now or are you going to still pretend ZOS is the good guy?

Eso is technically 18+
Children shouldn't be playing it. If they are then that's the parents fault. Sorry to tell you. Zos had it rated specifically for that reason most likely.

Iccengi · September 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

@Beardimus it's not about them making money, it's about the way they do it.

I am fine paying someone for a service or items I want, but when they start manipulating the way I get those to get more money from me and I get less out of it then it starts to get insulting.

An example for ESO.

I don't agree with crates but there was the build in mechanic via the gems that there was a limit on the money needed to be spent to get the rarest items. This meant if you REALLY wanted an apex item you could get it with enough investment.

However that wasn't good enough for ZOS, so they went and added items which can't be purchased with gems, meaning anyone who wants that item has no limit on the money they must now spend to obtain it.

It's insulting and rude to the customers who love and support the game.

This I'm 100% fine with the crown store but the fact the started hiding mounts I want is not right. I could spend $1,000s and still not get it(I have tried)

This was the last straw for me. The old system was fair with gems the new system takes advantage of players. Next round I won't try they lost a big spender due to a new choice they made. Yh they already got my money last time that's fine but they won't next time bc I know the drop chance from my own experience.

This I agree with. I didn't mind the old system it was fun. Like playing games at an old arcade.eventually you know you'd have enough tickets for that teddy bear now you can spend your life savings and never "win" that teddy bear. It's dumb to say the least.

Also I hate that they now put once exclusive things in the crates. I bought the dromathra mount last year when it was a one time deal. Sucks to be you if you didn't and that's how it should be. I don't even use that mount now cause it just infuriates me to see everyone and their mother running around on one.

boggo · September 2017

vestahls wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

If humans were content with what they need instead of what they want we'd still be hunting animals with sticks and living in caves.

The question is though: Wouldn't we be happier?

I was just gonna say...

We'd be happier, healthier, and less whiny.

No, we would be toothless when 20 and dead when 25 years old.

Firegrabber · September 2017

IMO crown crates aren't really long-lasting solution for pulling cash out off players. They can be effective at first but like now they have offered almost all items/collectibles from past with them and i think those are what players really are looking for. At some point their effectiveness will mainly count in stuff what's cool looking and that can be quite hard to target. I bet crown crates will suffer inflation in future if they continue doing them. Doesn't really bother me as i have bought them myself also but in the long-run it doens't really look good for serious gaming company offering those gamble things...just my 2 cents.

CardboardedBox · September 2017

Ah yes, the good old days back in the 80's when you could just play a game, and not have to worry about spending continuous money on it by being addicted.

.....Oh what a second, I just died. Better put another quarter in the cabinet so I can keep playing.

Ohhhh just died again. Looks like I gotta use yet another quarter if I want to see that next level.

Queo · September 2017

CardboardedBox wrote: »

Ah yes, the good old days back in the 80's when you could just play a game, and not have to worry about spending continuous money on it by being addicted.

.....Oh what a second, I just died. Better put another quarter in the cabinet so I can keep playing.

Ohhhh just died again. Looks like I gotta use yet another quarter if I want to see that next level.

Some Games were timed too...

#redwarriorneedsfoodbadly

Urza1234 · September 2017

The difference is that ZoS doesnt advertise to me a $7.99 seafood buffet and an injin prostitute while im driving down i5.

Turelus · September 2017

Firegrabber wrote: »

IMO crown crates aren't really long-lasting solution for pulling cash out off players. They can be effective at first but like now they have offered almost all items/collectibles from past with them and i think those are what players really are looking for. At some point their effectiveness will mainly count in stuff what's cool looking and that can be quite hard to target. I bet crown crates will suffer inflation in future if they continue doing them. Doesn't really bother me as i have bought them myself also but in the long-run it doens't really look good for serious gaming company offering those gamble things...just my 2 cents.

The problem is they need to come up with crazier and more interesting things every time.

Look at how SWTOR ones started and to what they've become.

DeHei · September 2017

But in ESO you can reach everything without buying crowns... so its fatal start to buy anything..

Navoric_Envaldreth · September 2017

Im part of the problem and while the method disgusts me i am not sorry for buying crates at all, in any game for that matter

craigr02 · September 2017

I personally do not buy crates, nothing in them is worth the gamble to me. I used to buy mounts, but they have moved away from selling mounts it seems. Truthfully its just for aesthetics. You can just buy a horse from the stable and be good.

Feanor · September 2017

I find it strange how addiction gets dismissed as a problem but instead seen as a matter of individual failure. There has been extensive study on the human brain and even with our advanced scientific methods scientists maybe understand 5% of what's going on in our brain (a nobel prize winner in that field acknowledged this). Findings also have shown that genetic disposition plays a larger role in some areas of human behavior than we possibly would like to believe. Studies done with fMR testing have raised the question if what we call "free will" is actually nothing more than an illusion.

As human beings we should be aware of the limits of our understanding and not be so sure of things all the time.

rotaugen454 · September 2017

I'm on my way to Vegas right now, so if I can't handle gambling, I'm in trouble...