Business of addiction: How the games industry is learning from casinos

Doctordarkspawn

theamazingx wrote: »

I just can't believe people get this worked up over cosmetics. I understand the disdain for these systems in cardgames and shooters and the like, where you're actually gambling in-game items with an impact on gameplay, but these are small artistic flairs we're talking about here. Is there some segment of the playerbase that just sits around and looks at eachother's outfits from the perch of their crown mounts?

Honestly, it is just about the practice.

That, and people have seen MMO's go down this road before and become pay to win before. It's happened enough times that people will raise hell about it.

Balamoor

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

ZoS is a odd company.

Accuse them of promoting gambling addiction, create a protest group that has shamed people out of the game for saying positive things about Crown Crates.

Get made community ambassador.

/Boggle

A protest group that anyone could join, had no rules or regulation, and whom the leader is in no way responsible for the actions of.

And yet you choose to constantly bring the subject up whenever you have the ability.

Seriously, just because people are opposed to a thing, and alot of them disagree with you, does not mean there is a conspiracy man.

Says the PAWS member.

Also never once called it a conspiracy those are your words.

Doctordarkspawn

Balamoor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

ZoS is a odd company.

Accuse them of promoting gambling addiction, create a protest group that has shamed people out of the game for saying positive things about Crown Crates.

Get made community ambassador.

/Boggle

A protest group that anyone could join, had no rules or regulation, and whom the leader is in no way responsible for the actions of.

And yet you choose to constantly bring the subject up whenever you have the ability.

Seriously, just because people are opposed to a thing, and alot of them disagree with you, does not mean there is a conspiracy man.

Says the PAWS member.

Also never once called it a conspiracy those are your words.

Your right. Those are my words. But what your describing, is a conspiracy. Or paranoia.

And I also have disagreed with you in the past. After I started to, you -then- latched onto the thing in the description.

Seriously man. I dont know who did what to you. Or who said what. But I am not my brother, nor his keeper.

Balamoor

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

ZoS is a odd company.

Accuse them of promoting gambling addiction, create a protest group that has shamed people out of the game for saying positive things about Crown Crates.

Get made community ambassador.

/Boggle

A protest group that anyone could join, had no rules or regulation, and whom the leader is in no way responsible for the actions of.

And yet you choose to constantly bring the subject up whenever you have the ability.

Seriously, just because people are opposed to a thing, and alot of them disagree with you, does not mean there is a conspiracy man.

Says the PAWS member.

Also never once called it a conspiracy those are your words.

Your right. Those are my words. But what your describing, is a conspiracy. Or paranoia.

And I also have disagreed with you in the past. After I started to, you -then- latched onto the thing in the description.

Seriously man. I dont know who did what to you. Or who said what. But I am not my brother, nor his keeper.

Yeah I was just with those dudes carrying bats,....lol

Let me be clear on this

As long as these idiotic gambling addiction threads are made I'm going to point out how ZoS CM's has a hands off approach to players that continue to actively harass people in the game over about Crown Crate purchases with impunity and allows players to accuse others of having a gambling addiction on the forums which is insulting as hell.

If you have a issue with that tough, if the CM's want to ban me over it fine people who have a problem with this aren't going away and if the CM's won't address it, maybe some of the developers at cons will. Making a product available then fostering a group that harasses and belittles people who buys said product is mixed signals and is wrong.

Doctordarkspawn

Balamoor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

ZoS is a odd company.

Accuse them of promoting gambling addiction, create a protest group that has shamed people out of the game for saying positive things about Crown Crates.

Get made community ambassador.

/Boggle

A protest group that anyone could join, had no rules or regulation, and whom the leader is in no way responsible for the actions of.

And yet you choose to constantly bring the subject up whenever you have the ability.

Seriously, just because people are opposed to a thing, and alot of them disagree with you, does not mean there is a conspiracy man.

Says the PAWS member.

Also never once called it a conspiracy those are your words.

Your right. Those are my words. But what your describing, is a conspiracy. Or paranoia.

And I also have disagreed with you in the past. After I started to, you -then- latched onto the thing in the description.

Seriously man. I dont know who did what to you. Or who said what. But I am not my brother, nor his keeper.

Yeah I was just with those dudes carrying bats,....lol

Let me be clear on this

As long as these idiotic gambling addiction threads are made I'm going to point out how ZoS CM's has a hands off approach to players that continue to actively harass people in the game over about Crown Crate purchases with impunity and allows players to accuse others of having a gambling addiction on the forums which is insulting as hell.

If you have a issue with that tough, if the CM's want to ban me over it fine people who have a problem with this aren't going away and if the CM's won't address it, maybe some of the developers at cons will. Making a product available then fostering a group that harasses and belittles people who buys said product is mixed signals and is wrong.

"Dudes carrying bats". Wow, you uh...I dont even know what to say to that man. I really genuinely do not know how to respond to that clearest manifestation, of paranoia.

As for the CM's. @Santieclaws (Who I didn't really wanna tag because quite frankly I like leting people solve these issues in house) started what is basicly a hashtag campaign against it when it first aired. That's it. A glorified forum version of a hashtag campagin.

Now, lemme state this, real clear, in no uncertain terms. In no way is the person who started it responsible for anything anyone did with the hashtag in they're description, unless expressly told by the person who started it. Just like, in no way is a inventor responsible for people who convert and mis-use the invention.

ZOS isn't fostering anyone. Again. You are seeing a pattern where none exists. That's fine. I do it to, sometimes. But it's not healthy man.

From here, I'll let the CM deal with it if they want, but I'm not gonna be treated like I'm associated with terrorists or the mafia for opposing a business practice and being open about that. My disagreement with you isn't a form of harassment. It's just a disagreement. Though I doubt anything I say is going to convince you of that.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Zbigb4life wrote: »

Oh so I see: since YOU DON'T get it it means it's ok??? Strange thinking but then again so is this game...

He got it. He's just applying a logic a little bit more subtle than just "it's evil, bad and dangerous, noone should use it, everyone should be against it, it should be forbidden". Of course, the video game industry is using shady methods abusing (some) people's vulnerabilities to addiction - but yes, many industries use shady practices.

In an ideal world, everything bad would be forbidden, thus only the good would remain. The problem is that noone agrees about good and bad in every aspect and in every situation. This "ideal" world might just as well forbid anything considered "bad" : meat, carb-rich food, alcohol, tobacco, weed, sex outside of marriage, video games, long skirts, short skirts, cars, whatever...

So yeah I also tend to say "live and let buy". It's up to everyone to take their own responsibility and NOT BUY stuff they don't approve of from companies they don't approve of.

Balamoor

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

"Dudes carrying bats". Wow, you uh...I dont even know what to say to that man. I really genuinely do not know how to respond to that clearest manifestation, of paranoia. .

Dude lighten up it was sarcasm

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for the CM's. @Santieclaws (Who I didn't really wanna tag because quite frankly I like leting people solve these issues in house) started what is basicly a hashtag campaign against it when it first aired. That's it. A glorified forum version of a hashtag campagin.

I'm not going to get into that, on a public forum other than to say it was a lot more than just a hashtag campaign and three very nice people left the game over it and refuses to return. Others deal with getting called out in Zone just because they are on a apex mount regularly, and almost every time the #PAWS tag is used.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Now, lemme state this, real clear, in no uncertain terms. In no way is the person who started it responsible for anything anyone did with the hashtag in they're description, unless expressly told by the person who started it. Just like, in no way is a inventor responsible for people who convert and mis-use the invention.

ZOS isn't fostering anyone. Again. You are seeing a pattern where none exists. That's fine. I do it to, sometimes. But it's not healthy man.

From here, I'll let the CM deal with it if they want, but I'm not gonna be treated like I'm associated with terrorists or the mafia for opposing a business practice and being open about that. My disagreement with you isn't a form of harassment. It's just a disagreement. Though I doubt anything I say is going to convince you of that.

We agree to disagree on this we have and the past and will continue to do so.

As long there is no consequence for in game harassment and accusing other players of addiction with impunity, this will keep coming up.

Hanokihs

Inarre wrote: »

I don't personally know anyone who ruined their financial situation in THIS game, but I do know many who ruined their finances in other games. Forgive my generalization but i figure theoretical guidelines and laws would affect all games and all society so Im taking it in that direction.

I am literally, no exaggeration, talking life savings levels of spending, 10s, sometimes 100s of thousands. I have seen the results and the spending records.

For the average person youre totally correct, we dont need babysitting, and that level of big brother can be insulting... But you and I, so I assume, don't have gambling addiction. There ARE members of our society who can, will, and do ruin their lives by gambling and spending on games. And for that few I think it's reasonable to contemplate a solution.

The problem here is the games are DESIGNED to prey on people with weak self control to make a profit. It's really very sick.

I've dealt with alcoholism in the past; I don't ask bars and commercials to stop trying to entice me to drink with their dangerous marketing tactics. I just avoid that stuff and move on with my life. People who have shopping, gambling, and gaming addictions can do the same.

Seek therapy. Take a pill. Have friends and family that tell you when you're being a bit nuts over something, and listen when they do it. These are other options for those individuals, and it's got nothing to do with the devs acting as impromptu babysitters.

You think if gaming companies face a bunch of laws suddenly telling them what they can and can't do, they won't just find a loophole and go around it? That all the shadiest practices will stop instead of get worse? Why you think we have to "gamble" on crates with fake currency in the first place?

Everything is designed to prey on people. That's what business is: being as enticing as possible for as many people necessary to make the biggest profit.

Luigi_Vampa

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

No surprise the strong support a system that crushes the weak and leave the strong unharmed - comforting them in their knowledge of their strength.

There used to be a time when you could do business without preying on the weak and flattering the lowest instincts.
Just making decent, honest $$.

Now it's all about turning people into addicts, preferably from a young age onwards.
To endorse such predatory behaviour - shame, really.

People turn themselves into gaming addicts by not thinking things through. Your line of thinking absolves anyone from any sort of personal responsibility. Just blame someone else or an "evil corporation" when you make unwise choices.

Personally, I'm more of a mind to point out how inefficient the system is, both in terms of maximizing profit and player appreciation.

Half the stuff sold through crown crates, if priced sensibly could sell like hotcakes. The forced ''limited supply' crap drives more people away then it does entice. The system they have in place now is just built to milk as much profit as they can from people now, not maximize profit over the long term, and it's likely a sign they dont expect this game to go on much longer.

Without access to ZOS's finances you are in no position to say what is efficient or not. They have tons of data and research in marketing. You have what you think is common sense. I really don't think they would be using these marketing tactics if the data didn't support it being the most efficient way to seperate people from their money.

Ardaghion

Crown crates have odds of obtaining certain items, just as the game does in any loot table. Since you can't "lose" by buying Crown Crates, there's no gambling, you don't flip a card and get lemons. If you think what you obtained isn't worth the cost of the Crown Crate don't buy them.

The marketing tactic that ZOS is using to get people to give them cash isn't much different than any business has used for centuries. Marketing is about manipulating people's wants, needs, desires and emotions. There are some items in the Crown Store I'd like that are only purchasable with Crown Gems.

I've determined that I'm not willing to spend that much cash buying Crown Crates just to get Crown Gems but then I'm a logical person that isn't usually swayed by marketing. If someone else thinks it's worth it to get what they want from the Crown Store, ZOS isn't forcing anyone to give up their money.

This also isn't a F2P game as mentioned in the linked article where you entice people to buy items so that they progress. Those kinds of games are a pox on the gaming world and are best avoided, especially by people with limited self-control.

Doctordarkspawn

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

No surprise the strong support a system that crushes the weak and leave the strong unharmed - comforting them in their knowledge of their strength.

There used to be a time when you could do business without preying on the weak and flattering the lowest instincts.
Just making decent, honest $$.

Now it's all about turning people into addicts, preferably from a young age onwards.
To endorse such predatory behaviour - shame, really.

People turn themselves into gaming addicts by not thinking things through. Your line of thinking absolves anyone from any sort of personal responsibility. Just blame someone else or an "evil corporation" when you make unwise choices.

Personally, I'm more of a mind to point out how inefficient the system is, both in terms of maximizing profit and player appreciation.

Half the stuff sold through crown crates, if priced sensibly could sell like hotcakes. The forced ''limited supply' crap drives more people away then it does entice. The system they have in place now is just built to milk as much profit as they can from people now, not maximize profit over the long term, and it's likely a sign they dont expect this game to go on much longer.

Without access to ZOS's finances you are in no position to say what is efficient or not. They have tons of data and research in marketing. You have what you think is common sense. I really don't think they would be using these marketing tactics if the data didn't support it being the most efficient way to seperate people from their money.

Or, it's there to bring in revenue in the short term and damn the long term. We cant know without the financials but I'ma continue to say it, this system isn't efficient. People can take it for what it's worth but sorry I'ma keep saying it.

SantieClaws

As Khajiit has been mentioned she thinks she might like to say something here.

PAWS stands for Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff. With the emphasis on the P bit.

Not name calling, shaming, targeting anyone - no abuse. Just politely and intelligently stating our reasons for disliking the crown crates and perhaps maybe a word or two of this reaching the ears of travellers before they spend coin they cannot really afford.

Not only was Khajiit most concerned for the well being of individual travellers she was concerned that the available goods in the other store would diminish and that all of the best items would be in the crates - this has been shown to be the case. The crates have much more that is exclusive in addition to the apex mounts.

A fair trade is not a bad thing. If your trade is a good deal why hide it in a box yes? Show us an item and if it is good we will pay a fair price for it. Gambling should play no part in this.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

rotaugen454

If someone berates me for being in an apex mount, I'm going to.....well, not care actually. They are entitled to their opinion and I'm entitled to mine. If they start cussing at me in zone chat, I'll feel bad for them and drive on.

Balamoor

I feel I can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who can't break character of a Khajiit.

If there is concerned there should also be concern with how a hashtag campaign was used to harass people who didn't share your moral outrage.

That's my last contribution to this thread.

Doctordarkspawn

Balamoor wrote: »

I feel I can't have an intelligent conversation with someone who can't break character of a Khajiit.

If there is concerned there should also be concern with how a hashtag campaign was used to harass people who didn't share your moral outrage.

That's my last contribution to this thread.

More accurately, you dont want to. I stopped agreeing to disagree when you started doing my best to slander me, and anyone else associated with PAWS. What was once a mistrust has bloomed into a vendetta. And I will not go quietly. @Balamoor you can count on that. Probably should have taken this tact sooner.

All the same, I wish you all the best.

Feanor

This thread has become rather strange.

AlMcFly

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I stopped caring when someone actually implied fascist policies cannot exist unless people are being dragged out of their houses. That's like saying a person doesn't qualify as a woman until they have given birth. A key tenant of Fascism is extreme government regulation on private citizenry, commerce, and industry. There are actually people here advocating the government placing regulations on how much of a legal good/service an individual private citizen is "allowed" to purchase.

Ardaghion

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I'm surprised the thread hasn't been locked, moved or deleted yet. This is a general discussion of gaming and marketing that has little to do with ESO as a game.

Tavore1138

AlMcFly wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I stopped caring when someone actually implied fascist policies cannot exist unless people are being dragged out of their houses. That's like saying a person doesn't qualify as a woman until they have given birth. A key tenant of Fascism is extreme government regulation on private citizenry, commerce, and industry. There are actually people here advocating the government placing regulations on how much of a legal good/service an individual private citizen is "allowed" to purchase.

A key tenet of facism is not having a society with democratic laws and regulations - fascism tends to be a dictatorial rule that ignores the rule of law and uses violence to suppress dissent, it has a direct link with extreme nationalism and often will use racism or other divisive approaches to focus it supporters on violence against target groups.

Having laws around gaming, as we already do, is not fascism nor is being asked to tidy your room or log out and do your school work....

Sevn

Ardaghion wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I'm surprised the thread hasn't been locked, moved or deleted yet. This is a general discussion of gaming and marketing that has little to do with ESO as a game.

Agreed. As I stated earlier I truly hope those here who are vehemently against crates due to their "addictive" nature spend time volunteering at their local addiction centers where we could always use another helping hand. Shame on them if they are just using the power of addiction here just because they can't directly buy digital items for what they deem an appropriate price for a freakin videogame.

Bouldercleave

Feanor wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

If humans were content with what they need instead of what they want we'd still be hunting animals with sticks and living in caves.

The question is though: Wouldn't we be happier?

Nope. I would probably starve to death.

I'll just have to be happy with a bit more than sticks and caves.

AlMcFly

Tavore1138 wrote: »

AlMcFly wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I stopped caring when someone actually implied fascist policies cannot exist unless people are being dragged out of their houses. That's like saying a person doesn't qualify as a woman until they have given birth. A key tenant of Fascism is extreme government regulation on private citizenry, commerce, and industry. There are actually people here advocating the government placing regulations on how much of a legal good/service an individual private citizen is "allowed" to purchase.

A key tenet of facism is not having a society with democratic laws and regulations - fascism tends to be a dictatorial rule that ignores the rule of law and uses violence to suppress dissent, it has a direct link with extreme nationalism and often will use racism or other divisive approaches to focus it supporters on violence against target groups.

Having laws around gaming, as we already do, is not fascism nor is being asked to tidy your room or log out and do your school work....

You're an idiot. Your argument is basically "We still have some democratic laws, thus it's not fascism." All instance of historical fascism came into play in a trickling fashion, changing one policy after another to become MORE fascist. You act like fascism requires W, X, Y, and Z in order to be fascist. It's a spectrum, just like democracy. U.S. is not a true democracy, and that is well-known.

People pretending to be intellectual is certainly something this forum doesn't lack.

Doctordarkspawn

Tavore1138 wrote: »

AlMcFly wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I stopped caring when someone actually implied fascist policies cannot exist unless people are being dragged out of their houses. That's like saying a person doesn't qualify as a woman until they have given birth. A key tenant of Fascism is extreme government regulation on private citizenry, commerce, and industry. There are actually people here advocating the government placing regulations on how much of a legal good/service an individual private citizen is "allowed" to purchase.

A key tenet of facism is not having a society with democratic laws and regulations - fascism tends to be a dictatorial rule that ignores the rule of law and uses violence to suppress dissent, it has a direct link with extreme nationalism and often will use racism or other divisive approaches to focus it supporters on violence against target groups.

Having laws around gaming, as we already do, is not fascism nor is being asked to tidy your room or log out and do your school work....

@Tavore1138

Just dont respond. The dude just results to personal insults rather than adressing points.

Your not gonna get muhc of a conversation out of him.

Why people think regulation on buisness is facism, though, is weird. Corporatism isn't much better than facism.

AlMcFly

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

AlMcFly wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I stopped caring when someone actually implied fascist policies cannot exist unless people are being dragged out of their houses. That's like saying a person doesn't qualify as a woman until they have given birth. A key tenant of Fascism is extreme government regulation on private citizenry, commerce, and industry. There are actually people here advocating the government placing regulations on how much of a legal good/service an individual private citizen is "allowed" to purchase.

A key tenet of facism is not having a society with democratic laws and regulations - fascism tends to be a dictatorial rule that ignores the rule of law and uses violence to suppress dissent, it has a direct link with extreme nationalism and often will use racism or other divisive approaches to focus it supporters on violence against target groups.

Having laws around gaming, as we already do, is not fascism nor is being asked to tidy your room or log out and do your school work....

Just dont respond. The dude just results to personal insults rather than adressing points.

I addressed his point, and noted how it makes no sense historically. Just because you're still butthurt about my comments to you earlier doesn't mean you should hold some grudge against me. Grow up.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Why people think regulation on buisness is facism, though, is weird.

It's clear you don't have the mental capacity for understanding my arguments. I'm not against government regulation of business. All of my arguments have been against government intervention in personal responsibility.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Corporatism isn't much better than facism.

Never said it was. Murdering someone is worse than punching someone in the face. Does that make punching someone in the face a good thing? Both are bad. Both should equally be shunned. Quit trying to create Strawman arguments.

Doctordarkspawn

AlMcFly wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

AlMcFly wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

This thread has become rather strange.

I stopped caring when someone actually implied fascist policies cannot exist unless people are being dragged out of their houses. That's like saying a person doesn't qualify as a woman until they have given birth. A key tenant of Fascism is extreme government regulation on private citizenry, commerce, and industry. There are actually people here advocating the government placing regulations on how much of a legal good/service an individual private citizen is "allowed" to purchase.

A key tenet of facism is not having a society with democratic laws and regulations - fascism tends to be a dictatorial rule that ignores the rule of law and uses violence to suppress dissent, it has a direct link with extreme nationalism and often will use racism or other divisive approaches to focus it supporters on violence against target groups.

Having laws around gaming, as we already do, is not fascism nor is being asked to tidy your room or log out and do your school work....

Just dont respond. The dude just results to personal insults rather than adressing points.

I addressed his point, and noted how it makes no sense historically. Just because you're still butthurt about my comments to you earlier doesn't mean you should hold some grudge against me. Grow up.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Why people think regulation on buisness is facism, though, is weird.

It's clear you don't have the mental capacity for understanding my arguments. I'm not against government regulation of business. All of my arguments have been against government intervention in personal responsibility.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Corporatism isn't much better than facism.

Never said it was. Murdering someone is worse than punching someone in the face. Does that make punching someone in the face a good thing? Both are bad. Both should equally be shunned. Quit trying to create Strawman arguments.

I didn't say you said Corporatism is better than facism. In fact, nothing in that was directed at you, because I wasn't trying to weigh in on the arguement. I was happy to stay out of that firing line.

As far as grudge, I dont hold one. I just dont want people to waste they're time. No need to get upset. But if I -was- going to hold a grudge, I'd certainly say that insulting me rampantly for not agreeing with you on every minutia isn't the best way to convince me not to. Just a hint. More flies with honey then vinegar, son.

Doctordarkspawn

Doubtleposts are bad, and when the forum causes you to do them due to multiple tabs, it should feel bad.

But back on the subject of something constructive, I'ma go ahed and present the experience I allways have with a few different groups of friends when a new crate is released.

Everyone flocks to see what is in them and when most people see something they want, they're disappointed because they are not willing to gamble for it. They'd like to just straight up buy it.

That's my experience with these crates. They dont do anything aside from milk people with deep pockets. They're not a long term profit solution. At least not in this environment. ESO didn't start with this model, and it came on the heels of alot of discontent with balance and how things were conducted.

Maybe so much of this is made out because of the history of the practice, and the environment with which it was introduced. It's possible, even probable. But, quite frankly I think it would be better off abandoned.

NecroEnzo

Thanks for posting this OP. As someone who's been in the industry, I can say it's pretty awful to hear a development team spend the majority of their time discussing how to manipulate people into spending money on their game, rather than looking at electronic games as an art.

It's equally frustrating to have to worked with some individuals who spend more time brainstorming on this and other topics, drinking soda, "meditating", and general goofing off than getting work done on a project.

I'm thrilled to see the mention of Sierra Entertainment, one of the last great game companies (both interplay and blizzard were beneath them back in the day) in an article about how the business has gone from an art to a casino. It's really sad that we can't even get a themepark MMORPG without a concentrated attempt to devour the player's time, using tactics like justifying RNG by describing the "excitement you get when obtaining a sought after item".

Make no mistake players: It is no accident that your 80%+ chance to upgrade an item from epic to legendary failed 8/10 times, nor is it any fluke that sharpened weapons, reinforced shields, and everything else cutting edge seems to drop less often than "charged" items, nor is it a mistake that those affixes are even in the game. Your developers may appear dumb, and to an extent they are, but they aren't stupid when it comes to math and what the META will be. You're being conned. The only thing you can do is vote with your wallet, and post your feedback on the forum, and of course this will subject you to ridicule by people who see your perspective as some kind of threat, or even like compulsively addictive games just like gamblers play till they're broke to avoid their problems.

Good luck, gamers; and addicts - go get treatment and stop defending these awful practices with your "video game company needs to make money" argument. I can guarantee valve didn't lose money by pushing half-life.

AlMcFly

Once upon a time, a person who spent their family's life-savings gambling wasn't diagnosed with gambling addiction and garnered society's sympathy. They were just called a selfish loser who made bad choices, then were excised from families like the tumor they were. How far we've fallen.

Inarre

Hanokihs wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

I don't personally know anyone who ruined their financial situation in THIS game, but I do know many who ruined their finances in other games. Forgive my generalization but i figure theoretical guidelines and laws would affect all games and all society so Im taking it in that direction.

I am literally, no exaggeration, talking life savings levels of spending, 10s, sometimes 100s of thousands. I have seen the results and the spending records.

For the average person youre totally correct, we dont need babysitting, and that level of big brother can be insulting... But you and I, so I assume, don't have gambling addiction. There ARE members of our society who can, will, and do ruin their lives by gambling and spending on games. And for that few I think it's reasonable to contemplate a solution.

The problem here is the games are DESIGNED to prey on people with weak self control to make a profit. It's really very sick.

I've dealt with alcoholism in the past; I don't ask bars and commercials to stop trying to entice me to drink with their dangerous marketing tactics. I just avoid that stuff and move on with my life. People who have shopping, gambling, and gaming addictions can do the same.

Seek therapy. Take a pill. Have friends and family that tell you when you're being a bit nuts over something, and listen when they do it. These are other options for those individuals, and it's got nothing to do with the devs acting as impromptu babysitters.

You think if gaming companies face a bunch of laws suddenly telling them what they can and can't do, they won't just find a loophole and go around it? That all the shadiest practices will stop instead of get worse? Why you think we have to "gamble" on crates with fake currency in the first place?

Everything is designed to prey on people. That's what business is: being as enticing as possible for as many people necessary to make the biggest profit.

Hey man, good on you, sincerely. Its rough getting past any kind of addiction.

While you cant ask people to stop airing alcohol advertisement because you have an alcohol issue, society has already put a "cap" on alcohol use. Alcohol has an age limit in most countries around the world. Thats the sort of thing i mean. Eso technically has an age limit, but ill be damned if it can be enforced in an anonymous paradise like the internet.

And yes people will always find a way, game companies and addicts alike. I started smoking cigarettes at age 16, it was illegal for me to both smoke them and buy them, but i found a way around it. That's not to say that the discouragement shouldn't be there for those who are underaged or otherwise incapable of making wise decisions. If anything, having some sort of restriction in place, even if unsuccessful, acts as a warning, a second thought.

Maybe i am expecting too much of humanity *shrugs*. Sure we can say "well they should have a family or someone who should look out for them, they should take a pill, get therapy" not everyone does. I didnt. If you do, great, and they should look out for you. For those that dont, well.... Guess they pay the price for their lack.

What we are discussing now is very different beliefs about what society could and should be. I tend to fall to the idea that society is responsible, to an extent, for people who succumb to addiction. Not everyone shares that view, i respect that.

I am well aware of what business is and that its designed to prey on people no matter if its the sick, the lusty or the dying. That doesnt mean i cant encourage people and corporations to be better than that. There is the real world, which you are talking about, and an ideal world, which i am talking about. I dont think either of us are wrong.

Megabear

ZOS = making money off of gambling addiction.