CP Battleground May Necessitate Creating Counters To Currently Uncounterable Builds

Recremen · September 2017

I love CP. I love CP in PvP and play pretty much exclusively on the CP-enabled campaign. But I've also been doing some battlegrounds recently, and I've come to appreciate that certain battleground game types simply aren't conducive to CP play as it exists currently. Notably, capture-the-relic for sure and possibly chaosball stand to become incredibly frustrating given some of the tank builds people have come up with in CP campaigns.

People already do pretty well with tank builds in battlegrounds as it stands, but it is at least possible, with enough people hitting them at the right time, to take them out and let the relic/chaosball change hands. I do not see this as a possibility with the current state of CP builds, however. I'd love to name names because the people I have in mind have excellent builds and probably would enjoy being acknowledged for them, but just in case that would get flagged as "naming and shaming" I'll forego it. I am sure that anyone who's done a lot of PvP has at least encountered some remarkably tanky individuals, however. You know, the kind that can take a dozen people wailing on them for minutes at a time. Or the small group players who leverage tankiness and the Guard skill, for that much more holding power.

These builds are all well and good in the Alliance War where you can literally just ignore them and go about your other objectives, but what do you think will happen when one of them gets a hold of a relic or the chaosball? Do we really want everyone to run around relic matches as tanks and never score points, and just wait for the time to run out as all the unkillable players sit around holding relics? At some point we need to see that certain builds (with no known counters) are just not conducive to certain types of play. I'm not truly certain this is an issue in Chaosball as the damage from it increases over time, but I also don't know if you can mitigate the damage and if there is the chance to get a build that can basically ignore it.

Anywho, long story short is that I think this can still work out if we can actually get some counterplay for those kind of incredibly tanky builds. Maybe tweak the two-handed ultimate to go through all mitigation (not just physical resistance, but also block, nord damage reduction, etc.). Maybe add an item set like what you did with shieldstacking (though I don't personally like that idea compared to ability tweaking). Just, you know, something to add some counterplay to prevent these match types from becoming a snoozefest.

SanTii.92 · September 2017

go with resource ravage poisons and target the healers.

Minno · September 2017

Problem is, aside from protecting flags or doing actual killing, the game was never intended to do "ctf" or ball carrying games.

CP gives players the stats they need to extend fights in their favor. To either delay their burst window for their advantage, retreat if outnumbered, or help keep an offensive on a tanky target. CP without quick PvP generates zerging, because players want to fight not ride out on a horse for 5 minutes.

If you think about CP situations where it's a 4v4 fight, you'll see the ttk is still the same as nCP. 4 teammates working together will outshine 4 players pugging out, and roles are still important. What's different is that you have additional Stam reductions that help everyone block/dodge/sprint. And you can debuff regen or suck their healing with defile effects without impacting your combat/defensive effective stats/stars. That's a huge balance that is completely removed from nCP.

Subversus · September 2017

I for one am hyped for CP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

Lexxypwns · September 2017

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for noCP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

Your argument is just a straw-man. Just because the game is balanced for CP and headed in that direction does NOT mean that CP in BGs aren't going to cause lots of problems.

How, for example do you deal with a tank build that can extended a fight forever while putting out huge AoE heals to his allies and being able to pop off a 13k+ aoe burst with 2 button presses? That's just one example of the types of broken builds that will extend fights and slow down the action in BGs. I've got several builds that currently have no reasonable counters in game and I'm not the only one, there's hundreds of players across all the servers that have builds that allow for no counterplay in a controlled 4v4v4 environment and that's the issue at hand.

Minno · September 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for noCP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

Your argument is just a straw-man. Just because the game is balanced for CP and headed in that direction does NOT mean that CP in BGs aren't going to cause lots of problems.

How, for example do you deal with a tank build that can extended a fight forever while putting out huge AoE heals to his allies and being able to pop off a 13k+ aoe burst with 2 button presses? That's just one example of the types of broken builds that will extend fights and slow down the action in BGs. I've got several builds that currently have no reasonable counters in game and I'm not the only one, there's hundreds of players across all the servers that have builds that allow for no counterplay in a controlled 4v4v4 environment and that's the issue at hand.

What's the build? I'd love to try to counter it

Subversus · September 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for noCP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

Your argument is just a straw-man. Just because the game is balanced for CP and headed in that direction does NOT mean that CP in BGs aren't going to cause lots of problems.

How, for example do you deal with a tank build that can extended a fight forever while putting out huge AoE heals to his allies and being able to pop off a 13k+ aoe burst with 2 button presses? That's just one example of the types of broken builds that will extend fights and slow down the action in BGs. I've got several builds that currently have no reasonable counters in game and I'm not the only one, there's hundreds of players across all the servers that have builds that allow for no counterplay in a controlled 4v4v4 environment and that's the issue at hand.

We haven't met any that were even close to being problematic, so I have no idea. I don't see how anything could survive our combined 5.2k wep dmg 37k stam burst while being feared. I literally kill wardens while they are standing in their forest ult on live cyro, I doubt anything will change just because of 4v4v4.

You claim that there already are unkillable noCP builds out there, I highly doubt anything will change in that regard when CP comes, except for giving US more damage in order to put more pressure on them.

From what I see on my platform, cp will only decrease me and my friend's time to kill and resource management, and turn our already op stamblade build into the extreme.

Recremen · September 2017

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for CP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

@Subversus

I'm not sure what the point of saying any of that is, as I'm not advocating for keeping CP out of battlegrounds, I'm advocating for a better examination of the builds that will be overly-frustrating in certain CP situations, and to add counterplay to those builds.

Derra · September 2017

Recremen wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for CP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

@Subversus

I'm not sure what the point of saying any of that is, as I'm not advocating for keeping CP out of battlegrounds, I'm advocating for a better examination of the builds that will be overly-frustrating in certain CP situations, and to add counterplay to those builds.

You should outline what makes these builds op then and give suggestions on how to adress the used mechanics to make them no longer problematic in battlegrounds no?

Recremen · September 2017

Derra wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for CP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

@Subversus

I'm not sure what the point of saying any of that is, as I'm not advocating for keeping CP out of battlegrounds, I'm advocating for a better examination of the builds that will be overly-frustrating in certain CP situations, and to add counterplay to those builds.

You should outline what makes these builds op then and give suggestions on how to adress the used mechanics to make them no longer problematic in battlegrounds no?

@Derra

I don't believe that the mechanics themselves are a problem, and the builds are in fact perfectly fine in Cyrodiil because, as previously stated, you can just ignore them and get your objectives done with ease. The specific problem is stacking mitigation to the point where killing them requires many people doing tons of single-target damage to them over a long time. There are variations on this theme, of course, but the mitigation builds are a larger issue because they resist coordinated burst, even executes, only to heal back up on their own. Heaven forbid they also have a pocket healer.

These builds are not OP, as you have to invest heavily away from damage and healing to get there, but in the context of certain battleground match types I am worried they will present an insurmountable advantage. An unkillable player may be skipped over in Cyrodiil, but if they're holding a relic then the team whose relic is being held will not be scoring any more points that match. Naturally you'd think that wouldn't be an issue as there's an incentive to turn the relic in, but what if all the relic-holders have such a build? No points for anyone!

I don't know if Chaosball damage can be mitigated, but that would also present a problem. Even if it will eventually kill the holder, it could still cause an issue if they can keep it for an inordinate amount of time. Either way, adding some expensive way to go through mitigation of all types, whether through the two-handed ult or an item set or what-have-you, could be a serious boon to countering this kind of problem.

GoodFella146 · September 2017

I'm glad this is coming so ZOS will finally be able to see how lacking damage is and how overpowered tanking is.

Subversus · September 2017

Recremen wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for CP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

@Subversus

I'm not sure what the point of saying any of that is, as I'm not advocating for keeping CP out of battlegrounds, I'm advocating for a better examination of the builds that will be overly-frustrating in certain CP situations, and to add counterplay to those builds.

I merely said that I like playing with CP

I do not believe there are more cancer builds in CP than there are in noCP. If the tanks are unkillable in noCP I doubt anything will change in CP, except for us being able to actually have a chance against them since we have crit multipliers, heal debuffs gallore, damage multipliers galore.

Recremen · September 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for CP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

@Subversus

I'm not sure what the point of saying any of that is, as I'm not advocating for keeping CP out of battlegrounds, I'm advocating for a better examination of the builds that will be overly-frustrating in certain CP situations, and to add counterplay to those builds.

I merely said that I like playing with CP I do not believe there are more cancer builds in CP than there are in noCP. If the tanks are unkillable in noCP I doubt anything will change in CP, except for us being able to actually have a chance against them since we have crit multipliers, heal debuffs gallore, damage multipliers galore.

@Subversus

Okay lol we're agreed on liking CP at least, then. The tanks are not unkillable in noCP, though. They do well, but with a coordinated effort you can totally get them down. I am not sure what it is about the CP system that enables it (I haven't looked at the builds myself), all I know is that the people who perform extremely well in a tank role on CP were not able to pull off the same effect back when we had that mandatory noCP week. Us damage dealers having CP does not enable us to kill them, the CP for some reason directly enables the supertank gameplay. And to be clear, I am 100% fine with ordinary damage dealers still struggling against tanky builds. That's kind of the point. I am worried, though, that without some kind of clearcut hard counter we are going to wind up with some really unfun match types in CP Battlegrounds.

I think it's just a matter of balancing the difficulty of building tanky with the difficulty of gaining and/or executing a hard counter to it. Magicka builds, of all things, actually have the closest thing to a counter to tank builds with the Knight Slayer set, assuming that 10% max health damage can't actually be mitigated. But that leaves stam characters like me with, what, more unfun no-skill proc sets? Pretty much. Give me Knight Slayer but for stam and I might just call it even.

ecru · September 2017

why does it matter, no one queues for bg's anyway.

Recremen wrote: »

These builds are not OP,

eso is the only game where a player tanks 10 players around a rock and then turns around and kills a few of them in 2-3 gcd's because they didn't have a specific trait on their gear that's required to survive in pvp. it's dumb and op, sorry.

Feanor · September 2017

You basically have two choices. Either go squishy and build for high damage so that you can kill the tanks maybe. Or you tank up like everyone and do. less damage, but stay alive and get your kills through group effort. You don't need to be a prophet to see how this will go. It's already there in live.

@Minno

I agree it's mainly a problem of how the modes are designed. There is just no drawback to being tanky.

Vaoh · September 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for noCP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

Your argument is just a straw-man. Just because the game is balanced for CP and headed in that direction does NOT mean that CP in BGs aren't going to cause lots of problems.

How, for example do you deal with a tank build that can extended a fight forever while putting out huge AoE heals to his allies and being able to pop off a 13k+ aoe burst with 2 button presses? That's just one example of the types of broken builds that will extend fights and slow down the action in BGs. I've got several builds that currently have no reasonable counters in game and I'm not the only one, there's hundreds of players across all the servers that have builds that allow for no counterplay in a controlled 4v4v4 environment and that's the issue at hand.

^^^ Not to mention, that most half-decent players can tank effectively with CP.

If someone who is a skilled PvPer (rare) brings their support build into PvP, it will take *more* than 4 players focusing them to take them out. Due to their tankiness/heals they will be unkillable unless heavily debuffed, CCed, Ulted, and focused by an entire team of good, coordinated players all at the same time. I already have in mind numerous builds that will ruin BGs. Also having CPs allows you to further optimize a group of 4 people to stack the odds even more than before against non pre-made groups, all while putting those not at the CP Cap at an inherent disadvantage.

I'm glad I stopped PvPing in ESO..... the quality of server performance and gameplay, as well as player population, keeps getting lower. At least things are still interesting in PvE. Battlegrounds was the last form of PvP I still cared about and now that ends when CWC releases. rip

luen79rwb17_ESO · September 2017

I agree, please don't enable CPs in BGs. Some setups are already hell with no CP.

bigelle.x3_ESO · September 2017

Enabling CP in BGs will only further wall off newer players from the game mode. Lower CP players just can't compete with high CP players and their hyper inflated damage, defense, and sustain stats. It doesn't matter how good a low CP player is, the handicap is too great. A competitive game mode should not have the match outcomes predetermined. Whoever has more CP will probably win the vast majority of the time. This is not how a competitive game mode is played. This is a bad decision and I hope it doesn't go live.

Subversus · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I for one am hyped for noCP. I make my builds with cp in mind, it's really annoying when I have to go swap munduses, traits and/or sets just to play some BGs with my friend. noCP is a thing of the past. The way this game has evolved and how the classes have been changed simply does not work with noCP.

Your argument is just a straw-man. Just because the game is balanced for CP and headed in that direction does NOT mean that CP in BGs aren't going to cause lots of problems.

How, for example do you deal with a tank build that can extended a fight forever while putting out huge AoE heals to his allies and being able to pop off a 13k+ aoe burst with 2 button presses? That's just one example of the types of broken builds that will extend fights and slow down the action in BGs. I've got several builds that currently have no reasonable counters in game and I'm not the only one, there's hundreds of players across all the servers that have builds that allow for no counterplay in a controlled 4v4v4 environment and that's the issue at hand.

^^^ Not to mention, that most half-decent players can tank effectively with CP.

If someone who is a skilled PvPer (rare) brings their support build into PvP, it will take *more* than 4 players focusing them to take them out. Due to their tankiness/heals they will be unkillable unless heavily debuffed, CCed, Ulted, and focused by an entire team of good, coordinated players all at the same time. I already have in mind numerous builds that will ruin BGs. Also having CPs allows you to further optimize a group of 4 people to stack the odds even more than before against non pre-made groups, all while putting those not at the CP Cap at an inherent disadvantage.

I'm glad I stopped PvPing in ESO..... the quality of server performance and gameplay, as well as player population, keeps getting lower. At least things are still interesting in PvE. Battlegrounds was the last form of PvP I still cared about and now that ends when CWC releases. rip

I wholeheartedly disagree. If the 4 players are as good as the 1, he doesn't stand a chance, no matter how good his build is. All it takes is 1 coordinated fear burst from 2 players to bring down someone tanky, let alone 4.

Minno · September 2017

Feanor wrote: »

You basically have two choices. Either go squishy and build for high damage so that you can kill the tanks maybe. Or you tank up like everyone and do. less damage, but stay alive and get your kills through group effort. You don't need to be a prophet to see how this will go. It's already there in live.

@Minno

I agree it's mainly a problem of how the modes are designed. There is just no drawback to being tanky.

With it being CP they can now add a scaling debuff that makes you take extra DMG. Or a dot to stop block tanks faster if you pick up any of those items.

With tanks, you can't just yolo on the CC (like everyone does in either nCP or CP). Otherwise they will have free uptime on cc immunity, and you'll never be about to drop their block. Heal debuff+Regen debuff+ sustained dots funnies by block immune cc and ulti. Usually causes them to take it hard.
.

DeadlyRecluse · September 2017

Recremen wrote: »

I am not sure what it is about the CP system that enables it (I haven't looked at the builds myself), all I know is that the people who perform extremely well in a tank role on CP were not able to pull off the same effect back when we had that mandatory noCP week. Us damage dealers having CP does not enable us to kill them, the CP for some reason directly enables the supertank gameplay. .

Having increased off-resource regen contributes greatly to tankiness without giving any extra damage to enemy DDs. Add in the fact that a "tanky" CP distribution can distribute CP more widely (and thus, due to the diminishing returns, more efficiently) than DD can, and you have a system that has the potential to let tanky builds run amok.

Feanor · September 2017

Heal debuff+Regen debuff+ sustained dots funnies ...

On other words, stuff not every class has easy access too and requires heavy investment in questionable CP attributes...

Minno · September 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Heal debuff+Regen debuff+ sustained dots funnies ...

On other words, stuff not every class has easy access too and requires heavy investment in questionable CP attributes...

Disease enchant+siphoner CP+every class has a one or two dots in their kit.

Only issue is that not everyone has access to unblocked cc. But vamp drain+fear+ Sorc,dk now have this type of cc ability. I'd imagine this well no longer be a problem, as long as players know not to just throw cc around like candy.