Sigh.... here we go again...

Q to sorcs..

What ability are you all gonna give up for the new rune-cage? Lets look at my bars (DW/resto)..::

Wrath? Nope - necessary part of burst
Frags? Nope - the whole point of run-cage would be to land that frag
Hardened? Nope - kind of need that to not die
Twilight Matriarch? Necessary for stat padding and my only heal - so, nope..
Inner light.. Necessary to add to that burst.. sometimes even finds stealthers so nope..

Could maybe put it on my backbar?
Curse? Nope - still kind of essential for DW burst..
Frag? hm, with no spammable - you NEED regular frag procs for regular burst
Harness? What y'all gonna cry about if I can't shield-stack?
Pet (again) - see above.
Streak? Again, what y'all gonna cry about if I can't instantly move from melee into gap-close range?

Hmmm.. I think I'll give up...... nothing. There is nothing I CAN give up.

New destro staff.. Regardless of class, it is plain BS that they added a BiS PVP weapon that you have to do trials to get.

If its so good - every mg class will use it (not just sorcs) - bye bye build diversity. If it's not good enough to replace your existing class spammable - then don't complain about it...

Sigh,here we go again.

Non sorc "I dare say that the new changes are quite unbalanced"

Sorc" wow another nerf sorc thread,l2p guys,ugot owned on your nb ganker so you're mad,*9 paragraphs of reasons why you still find difficult to play your class* "


Seriously guys it's becoming boring. This is the pts so talk about the pts changes.

IMHO destro staff is one of the most op things I've seen in months,and with the rune prison changes lining a burst with sorc will require 0 skill (and yes,another change that kills medium armor)

Sorc is the weakest magicka class in my opinion these days (but by far the easiest to play, it's just annoying to fight shieldstackers who get carried by Harness Magicka) unless you build around duels. Only opponents sorcs are strong against are builds which can get bursted (most of the time medium armor) which barely exist anymore anyways (and good magplars/manablades/manadks/magwardens will just steamroll over them even more easily than magsorc). I for myself found my peace and will just embrace the bloodspawn + legion meta now, lose 3% dmg but become 3 times more tanky.

Karmanorway wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I mean seriously? Sorc, the class that has to give up very little for tankiness, mobility and damage, now is the tied best CCer in the game. I don't think they are god mode, burst is manageable, and I don't want every bit of it nerfed like pleebs, but they are definitely the most overpowered class now.

Let papa go through comparisons:

Streak: No counters until the sorc has already crossed the border and started a new life. This would be fine as a mobility based defense, but then they can facetank DK style without any block like slows. IMO i'd reduce the cost of streak and mines, but add a cooldown so its more usable in battle to reposition and less spammable, it would require some planning in where to use the streak.

Which brings me to... Shield stacking, its definitely possible to keep shields up constantly, as it has none of the penalties of block/roll or no shield defile, no regen blocks or repetitive cost increases. Also none of the counters, where is the attacks that goes through only shields (Oblivion/bleed ignores everything, cost poisons affect everyone) One of its main counters is in a set, great if you want to counter a sorc, nope, you might decimate the sorc, but you become potato to everyone without shields. The CP tree against shields gets a half mark, it doesn't fully counter them, more so depends on your damage. Something like siphoner to counterract the extra shield strength from bastion

How about, conversion costing more to interrupt than to be interrupted. Nope, too difficult to add some risk/reward to it. Too hard for FOTYers.

Also the auto execute, DK/warden get effectively nothing. Why?

If the rune prison change is added, then its just incredibly silly. Discuss.

I dont get it, if sorcerers are so OP , why are less ppl playing that class? And i have a magsorc myself, when a stam pvper gets up close to me and start spamming uppercut on me im pretty much screwed, so i for one thinks the rune prison buff is a good and fair thing,

Seriously, people keep saying sorcs are so OP, but the majority of the people I run into in Cyrodiil play stam builds.
I recommend a lot of the "sorcs are OP" people try to actually play a sorc in Cyrodiil, and not run in a zerg. It isn't as easy as you think.

For everyone saying that the new rune prison is balanced test this with a buddy in full heavy armor :
You do 2 full burst rotas curse, mage's wrath, force Pulse + crystal frags

In one test he blocks the whole time.
In the other he doesn't block if you test it on live or you how on the pts and use rune prison right before frags

Then come back to this post and tell me the damage difference.
If this was a bait article I'd word it like this:
They changed one skill and you won't believe what happened then

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

Please for the love of god.
It´s theoretically 100% uptime on the perfect weapons - which are goign to be quite uncommon as it requires you to run vet + hardmode.

In my testing uptime was between 80 and 90% for perfect weapons and around 70% for imperfect weapons.

Now putting that into context: Sorcs generally already have relatively high uptime on concussed when using lightning enchants on staff (especially with infused or charged builds - yes the latter does exist).
Also sorc builds mostly already have acess to minor maim (shadowrend or wizards).

You´re talking about giving up 5p necro, 5p lich or a 2p undaunted bonus to gain a little higher uptime on concussed and gain burning while loosing uptime on maim.

The combination of masterbow infused providing you with 850 weapondmg + asylum 2h giving you ultimate for spamming finisher 2 or 3 times is something that is wjust as good as what destro staff provides.


On topic of nerf sorcs: Make harness + hardened unstackable. Kappa.

@Derra -

Not everybody runs that build. And I don;t care how good it is, no build should be considered a baseline for balance. If something is too strong, then "well you can't run this awesome build" is not a good justification for keeping it.

Yes, sorcs (or other classes) can get high uptime, but they got to use the Charged/Infused + shock enchant. Now they get that and use other good glyphs like Spell Damage, Diseased, Prismatic, and a more versatile trait like nirnhoned. I am the last person to whine about sorc buffs, but come one, that is exactly what this is and it's not something insignificant

If you think Masterbow is too strong, then make a separate thread about it.

I don´t think anything is too strong when put into the context of the alternatives - that´s exactly the point.
If everyone gets stronger by using their new tools there is nobody getting ahead.

I don´t think sorc offense is the problem in regard to that class - it´s shieldstacking and their survivability because of that.

When you complain about sorc defense - yay you get my vote! Go for it. Ravage that idiotic shieldstacking.
When you complain about offense though - really? I mean everyone can see curse timers now...

usmcjdking wrote: »

The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.

The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.

To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.

ParaNostram wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

The new staff is blatantly overpowered in PVP. 100% uptime on 3 major status effects? That's absolutely ridiculous.

The problem isn't sorcs though everyone apparently likes to think if it is physically possible for a sorc to use something then oh man that's just ZOS making this only for sorcs yup ZOS just loves their sorcs and plays nothing but yup yup.

To respond to OP... Streak is the only ability with a mechanic build into it to limit it's spammability. Shield stacking specifically got a 50% shield potency nerf as well as nerfed to 6 seconds while being rather expensive. You're beating a dead horse.

Dodge roll has the same cost penalty while having lots of counters.
Blocking got its cost increased by 50%.
Damage and healing were also reduced by 50%

Streak is so strong to get away because it brings you out of range and in the 4 seconds where you are far enough to not be attacked you can use dark deal to get enough magicka back to streak away again, repeat this and all heavy armor specs can't follow you and every spec that hunts you loses enough resources to be easily killed afterwards

All the hate against Sorcs around here is seeded in irrationality...i never seen anything like it a game before.

This staff? Honestly, what sounds strong on paper does not always translate out to be strong in practice.

Lets do some comparison here shall we?

Concentrated Force (Perfected)

Force Shock always applies the Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds per enemy.

Disciplined Slash (Perfected)

When you deal damage with Reverse Slash, you generate up to 15 Ultimate based on how much execute bonus damage it dealt.


Disciplined Slash looks stronger on paper then Concentrated Force. Put this on , say a Warden, with Major Heroism + Bloodspawn + Battle Frenzy and your looking at absolutely stupidly broken OP Ultimate Gain in open world pvp. Concentrated Force won't have anything on this.

Its far more then Concentrated Force that looks to be a wee bit broken.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

What I am more worried about is the new asylum Crushing shock buff which gives 3 automatic 100% uptimes buffs on a skill that isn't refelctable, I get it Crushing Shock isn't technically a sorcerer skill, but that call by far gets the most mileage out of it. And these weapons, unlike Masters/Maelstrom, are not only easy to get from normal versions, but the "imperfect" variety is practically every bit as powerful as the "perfect" ones.

Though I will say now NBs, Sorcs, and DKs all have a CC that goes through block and through dodgeroll - another trend toward easy mode no counter game-play, meanwhile templars have ...wait for it ... javelin.

Please for the love of god.
It´s theoretically 100% uptime on the perfect weapons - which are goign to be quite uncommon as it requires you to run vet + hardmode.

In my testing uptime was between 80 and 90% for perfect weapons and around 70% for imperfect weapons.

Now putting that into context: Sorcs generally already have relatively high uptime on concussed when using lightning enchants on staff (especially with infused or charged builds - yes the latter does exist).
Also sorc builds mostly already have acess to minor maim (shadowrend or wizards).

You´re talking about giving up 5p necro, 5p lich or a 2p undaunted bonus to gain a little higher uptime on concussed and gain burning while loosing uptime on maim.

The combination of masterbow infused providing you with 850 weapondmg + asylum 2h giving you ultimate for spamming finisher 2 or 3 times is something that is wjust as good as what destro staff provides.


On topic of nerf sorcs: Make harness + hardened unstackable. Kappa.

@Derra -

Not everybody runs that build. And I don;t care how good it is, no build should be considered a baseline for balance. If something is too strong, then "well you can't run this awesome build" is not a good justification for keeping it.

Yes, sorcs (or other classes) can get high uptime, but they got to use the Charged/Infused + shock enchant. Now they get that and use other good glyphs like Spell Damage, Diseased, Prismatic, and a more versatile trait like nirnhoned. I am the last person to whine about sorc buffs, but come one, that is exactly what this is and it's not something insignificant

If you think Masterbow is too strong, then make a separate thread about it.

I don´t think anything is too strong when put into the context of the alternatives - that´s exactly the point.
If everyone gets stronger by using their new tools there is nobody getting ahead.

I don´t think sorc offense is the problem in regard to that class - it´s shieldstacking and their survivability because of that.

When you complain about sorc defense - yay you get my vote! Go for it. Ravage that idiotic shieldstacking.
When you complain about offense though - really? I mean everyone can see curse timers now...

The context is not your build. Your build is not the standard of the game, no matter how BiS or awesome you think it is.

I'll get right on that crushing shock spam build with my templar

@Joy_Division

I was talking about the context of the alternative weapons for stamina mainly - not specifically my build.

On templars the staff bonus competes against a different 5p bonus - which is still okish i think.
Magplar and MagDK seem to get a little bit of the short stick but then they´re currently relatively strong overall and magDK gets quite a hefty buff for selfhealing and offense.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

All the hate against Sorcs around here is seeded in irrationality...i never seen anything like it a game before.

This staff? Honestly, what sounds strong on paper does not always translate out to be strong in practice.

Lets do some comparison here shall we?

Concentrated Force (Perfected)

Force Shock always applies the Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds per enemy.

Disciplined Slash (Perfected)

When you deal damage with Reverse Slash, you generate up to 15 Ultimate based on how much execute bonus damage it dealt.


Disciplined Slash looks stronger on paper then Concentrated Force. Put this on , say a Warden, with Major Heroism + Bloodspawn + Battle Frenzy and your looking at absolutely stupidly broken OP Ultimate Gain in open world pvp. Concentrated Force won't have anything on this.

Its far more then Concentrated Force that looks to be a wee bit broken.

That Thing is unbalanced too but the changes to rune prison along with the asylum destro is op aswell and both Things Need to be addressed

ak_pvp wrote: »

I didn't expect to need to put out a flashing neon sign saying pvp, I think the skills mentioned express that. Here are the contexts:

Highest mobility: sorc
Burst: sorc/warden/nb
Survivability: sorc shields, easily up to par when running resto ult, DKs tied, but lose damage, sorcy pie doesn't.
Ccs: Used to be fear, but DK and sorc both have root+unblockable cc (not DK prior because break via damage) beneficial in group situations. Negate too, if that counts.

Sorc is effectivly one of the best in pvp, with top cc, damage, ignoring roots with streaks. The only thing they aren't best in is pvp group healing.

Bgs too for obvious reasons, but you already know

I'll admit one thing, stamina DK outdoes magsorc for 1vx tank, but nothing else, even then stamDK is avoidable as ccs are expensive and they are slow/weak without Seventh/fury.

Oh, and yeah, streaks counters don't factor in until late, goes through roots, ball absorbs some stuff, gap closers sometimes can't catch up to stun/damage.

My point would be that there is no universal context in PvP. If a class were over performing in all aspects, we'd have an issue. But the balance of power is very tight between all classes, and has been for a while. Every class is extremely powerful in its own niche.

Let me answer your points 1:1.

Highest mobility: Sorc has good mobility, but so does anything stamina. Have you ever seen a stamina build in medium armor run around on speed pots? They cover ground faster and at less cost than a streaking sorc. Streak is directly countered by gap closers, where again the resource burn is in favor of those chasing. And finally, while half of mobility is creating distance, the other half of mobility is maintaining momentum i.e. countering snares. A snared sorc will not go far with streak so long as even one competent enemy is on them. All things considered, a stam templar or stam sorc will have just as good mobility as a sorc. And if you consider 3D mobility and juking people, shades is just as powerful as streak if used right.

Burst: Sorc burst is good, but it is extremely predictable. Nightblade (both magicka and stamina) is far more lethal. I will say, sorc is more accessible and easier to play. Night blade has a higher skill floor, but also a higher skill ceiling. When speaking absolutes and the dynamics of classes when played the way they are meant to be, nightblade burst in PvP is far superior. Simply quicker, harder hitting, less predictable, and accompanied with more buffs and debuffs than the sorc.

Survivability: 1v1, shields are great. When outnumbered or when being focused, they are one of the weaker mechanics. I find myself astoundingly more survivable when under focus as a heavy armor stamina build than as a sorc. I could elaborate but you won't really get it until you pick up a mag sorc yourself and duel a strong stamina player or fight an intense 1vX against opponents with lethal damage. Against pugs, indeed sorc seems invincible. All it takes is one good stam build in that "X" part of the equation to make sorc subpar in outnumbered PvP.

These are all topics relevant to small scale. In large scale pvp, sorc is outperformed by nightblade bombers and is mostly useful for the negate.

Every class is extremely powerful in their niche. If you find this statement hard to believe, chances are you are not playing your class right or have not seen it played right. So what is sorc's niche? Its the absolute best solo roamer. Dipping in and out of fights and blowing *** up. But when you have to buckle down and fight? I'd take any stam class over magicka sorc. And that precisely is why I main a stamplar and stamblade these days.

You can keep complaining and whining, but by now it should be abundantly clear that the devs also agree with and acknowledge the balance of power that exists that I have described here. Otherwise, sorcs woulda been nerfed a long time ago. There isn't some grand conspiracy here, yall just need to learn to play.

Derra wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

All the hate against Sorcs around here is seeded in irrationality...i never seen anything like it a game before.

This staff? Honestly, what sounds strong on paper does not always translate out to be strong in practice.

Lets do some comparison here shall we?

Concentrated Force (Perfected)

Force Shock always applies the Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds per enemy.

Disciplined Slash (Perfected)

When you deal damage with Reverse Slash, you generate up to 15 Ultimate based on how much execute bonus damage it dealt.


Disciplined Slash looks stronger on paper then Concentrated Force. Put this on , say a Warden, with Major Heroism + Bloodspawn + Battle Frenzy and your looking at absolutely stupidly broken OP Ultimate Gain in open world pvp. Concentrated Force won't have anything on this.

Its far more then Concentrated Force that looks to be a wee bit broken.

That Thing is unbalanced too but the changes to rune prison along with the asylum destro is op aswell and both Things Need to be addressed

Can´t see the destro staff overperforming compared to other offensive weapon choices honestly.

Agreed on rune prison. The offensive morph seems over the top.

the Problem i have with the asylum staff is that it is so easy to apply the Status effects and have good uptime on all 3 while still having the free choice of trait and you can use another strong glyph that applies either Major defile or has another effect.
I think the best way would be if it applied the stauts effect of the type of destro staff you have and not all 3