Force Shock - REMEBER IT HAS LOWER DAMAGE SCALING (and I don't play a sorc)

Emma_Overload · September 2017

Why are people talking about the Asylum staff as if Sorcs are the only ones who can use it? You guys wear me out.

Subversus · September 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Why are people taking about the Asylum staff as if Sorcs are the only ones who can use it? You guys wear me out.

Magblades need strife the same way mDKs need whip; the class doesn't work without it. Only class that can maybe use it is a magplar, but I don't know anything about that so idk.

Feanor · September 2017

@Emma_Overload

Gotta keep the warped rationale that Sorcs are somehow OP up. Most people are still stuck in Homestead. Force Pulse/Crushing Shock still is a crap spammable compared to others. But because it's the only one Sorcs have to proc Frags reliably it's now OP with the new staff. It very well could be, but because it is a staple skill for Sorcs it gets scrutinized immediately and heavily. So much bias.

WreckfulAbandon · September 2017

New staff definitely looks OP as is applying all 3 status effects.

Asmael · September 2017

This is not how you show that something is balanced or not. The issue is not Force Shock but the procs (Chilled and Concussion in particular for +8% damage taken and 15% reduced damage).

And since people seems to consider something that is basically already ingame is overpowered, I'll clear that up:

Base elemental proc chance:

Weapon enchants 20%
Standard ability 10%
Area of effect abilities 5%
Damage over time abilities 3%
Area of effect damage over time abilities 1%

Elemental Force passive

Increases your chance of afflicting enemies with Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100%.

Gold Charged enchant on a 2H weapon

Increases chance to apply status effects by: 220%

Chance to proc status effect on single target ability (eg. Force Shock) with Gold Charged staff and Elemental Force:

10% * ( 1 + (1 + 2,2)) = 42%

Chance to proc status effect on elemental damage enchant (eg. Shock Enchant) with Gold Charged staff and Elemental Force:

20% * ( 1 + (1 + 2,2)) = 84%

Using Force Shock with hit means that each cast of Force shock has a 42% chance to apply Concussion, and that any Shock enchant proc has a 84% chance to work, with the additional benefit that it doesn't only work on Force Shock. For short, using Force Shock will pretty much guarantee to proc Concussion already.

You have a 90,72% chance to proc concussion with a Force shock cast that also activates the shock enchant, calculations below:

Wild magicka sorc uses Force Shock and procs the Shock enchant!

Case 1 : Concussion applies on Force Shock: 42%
Case 1a Concussion applies on Shock enchant: 84% - Concussed (35,28%)
Case 1b Concussion does not apply on Shock enchant: 16% - Concussed (6,72%)

Case 2: Concussion does not apply on Force Shock: 58%
Case 2a: Concussion applies on Shock enchant: 84% - Concussed (48,72%)
Case 2b: Concussion does not apply on Shock enchant: 16% (9,28%)

Likelihood of applying Concussion: 35,28 + 6,72 + 48,72 = 90,72%
Likelihood of failing to apply Concussion: 9,28%

It also doesn't prevent you from backbarring a poison, it also allows you to use an additional 5p or 2p monster set compared to Asylum. You already get to proc Minor Main (chilled) 42% of the time on Force shock cast, and Concussion is not a problem at all.

If someone tells me that Burning is OP, I'll kindly tell them to stop running in Cyro naked as a stage 4 vamp while being chased by mDKs.

Wizard's riposte allows you to activate Minor main on all targets hitting you, which is what you want in pretty much all situations. The only situation where it makes no difference is 1v1 / duels - which you shouldn't die to as a magicka sorcerer if you know what you are doing. For short: the Asylum staff allows you to avoid using this set for duels.

And because I know that some people will call me out because I didn't mention a specific build: I did NOT say that Asylum weapons are worse, what I am saying is that you already have an option available achieving similar results. If the cooldown of the Asylum staff needs to be increased, the only way to tell is to test both options, see the alternative setups and compare actual data and make proper conclusions.

Additional read

How Charged was second only to Sharpened even before HotR

More on status effects/

Brrrofski · September 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Vapirko @NBrookus

Yes, I'm aware. Which is it that sets you off? What combination?

The 100%? The 8% damage? the Burning Damage? the damage reduction?

Force pulse in comparison to other(non-sorc) mClass spammables is a bit sub-par. On my DK it's behind by about 1.4K damage compared to the non-triggered flame lash. At what point does it vastly surpass that? Flame Lash adds a bit more utility (same with crushing shock).
Adding in 8% damage it brings the spammable up to 1K behind. Is it the Fire or the Frost status that adds in enough damage to make up for it?

You do realise in PvP sorc already use it right? As in, it's their spammable. So regardless of it's damage it is already being used. So sorcs will gain tremendously from the staff.

It's broken. If it goes live like that (with 3 buffs) it will kill PvP. Mag sorc is already strong. Even with a cooldown this will make them incredibly op.

Murador178 · September 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Before all the threads start saying how the new staff will be OP, remember that the skill it buffs has a much lower scaling than other spammables. It even deals less damage than a single tick from elemental Rage.

Can we please compare assasins will and swallow soul next?

Koensol · September 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Vapirko @NBrookus

Yes, I'm aware. Which is it that sets you off? What combination?

The 100%? The 8% damage? the Burning Damage? the damage reduction?

Force pulse in comparison to other(non-sorc) mClass spammables is a bit sub-par. On my DK it's behind by about 1.4K damage compared to the non-triggered flame lash. At what point does it vastly surpass that? Flame Lash adds a bit more utility (same with crushing shock).
Adding in 8% damage it brings the spammable up to 1K behind. Is it the Fire or the Frost status that adds in enough damage to make up for it?

Do you realize that sorcerers have their own abilities other than pulse? This change will increase their damage and burst to even higher number that they were. We aren't just talking pulse here. This change is just completely and utterly beyond any form of reason.

Ocelot9x · September 2017

Asmael wrote: »

This is not how you show that something is balanced or not. The issue is not Force Shock but the procs (Chilled and Concussion in particular for +8% damage taken and 15% reduced damage).

And since people seems to consider something that is basically already ingame is overpowered, I'll clear that up:

Base elemental proc chance:
Weapon enchants 20%

Standard ability 10%

Area of effect abilities 5%

Damage over time abilities 3%

Area of effect damage over time abilities 1%

Elemental Force passive
Increases your chance of afflicting enemies with Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100%.

Gold Charged enchant on a 2H weapon
Increases chance to apply status effects by: 220%

Chance to proc status effect on single target ability (eg. Force Shock) with Gold Charged staff and Elemental Force:
10% * ( 1 + (1 + 2,2)) = 42%

Chance to proc status effect on elemental damage enchant (eg. Shock Enchant) with Gold Charged staff and Elemental Force:
20% * ( 1 + (1 + 2,2)) = 84%

Using Force Shock with hit means that each cast of Force shock has a 42% chance to apply Concussion, and that any Shock enchant proc has a 84% chance to work, with the additional benefit that it doesn't only work on Force Shock. For short, using Force Shock will pretty much guarantee to proc Concussion already.

You have a 90,72% chance to proc concussion with a Force shock cast that also activates the shock enchant, calculations below:
Wild magicka sorc uses Force Shock and procs the Shock enchant!

Case 1 : Concussion applies on Force Shock: 42%
Case 1a Concussion applies on Shock enchant: 84% - Concussed (35,28%)
Case 1b Concussion does not apply on Shock enchant: 16% - Concussed (6,72%)

Case 2: Concussion does not apply on Force Shock: 58%
Case 2a: Concussion applies on Shock enchant: 84% - Concussed (48,72%)
Case 2b: Concussion does not apply on Shock enchant: 16% (9,28%)

Likelihood of applying Concussion: 35,28 + 6,72 + 48,72 = 90,72%
Likelihood of failing to apply Concussion: 9,28%

It also doesn't prevent you from backbarring a poison, it also allows you to use an additional 5p or 2p monster set compared to Asylum. You already get to proc Minor Main (chilled) 42% of the time on Force shock cast, and Concussion is not a problem at all.

If someone tells me that Burning is OP, I'll kindly tell them to stop running in Cyro naked as a stage 4 vamp while being chased by mDKs.

Wizard's riposte allows you to activate Minor main on all targets hitting you, which is what you want in pretty much all situations. The only situation where it makes no difference is 1v1 / duels - which you shouldn't die to as a magicka sorcerer if you know what you are doing. For short: the Asylum staff allows you to avoid using this set for duels.

And because I know that some people will call me out because I didn't mention a specific build: I did NOT say that Asylum weapons are worse, what I am saying is that you already have an option available achieving similar results. If the cooldown of the Asylum staff needs to be increased, the only way to tell is to test both options, see the alternative setups and compare actual data and make proper conclusions.

Additional read

How Charged was second only to Sharpened even before HotR

More on status effects/

There is only a flaw in your logic.
You need to build particular items to get that uptime (gold charged weapon etc) with the new weapon you can run nirnohed and get 100% uptime (8%+) on every debuff plus weapon damage. It's killing build diversity and absolutely overpowers,I don't know what the devs were thinking.

Izaki · September 2017

Have 1 Sorc use the Asylum Staff in the raid group. Have a perma uptime on Concussed (aka Minor Vulnerability) which in turn means a perma uptime on Off-balance as long as there are enough Storm Blockades in the group. Not to mention the perma Burning uptime which will also boost all the Fire Blockades in the group by 20%. This Staff is a great tool for group play.

Subversus · September 2017

Asmael wrote: »

This is not how you show that something is balanced or not. The issue is not Force Shock but the procs (Chilled and Concussion in particular for +8% damage taken and 15% reduced damage).

And since people seems to consider something that is basically already ingame is overpowered, I'll clear that up:

Base elemental proc chance:
Weapon enchants 20%

Standard ability 10%

Area of effect abilities 5%

Damage over time abilities 3%

Area of effect damage over time abilities 1%

Elemental Force passive
Increases your chance of afflicting enemies with Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100%.

Gold Charged enchant on a 2H weapon
Increases chance to apply status effects by: 220%

Chance to proc status effect on single target ability (eg. Force Shock) with Gold Charged staff and Elemental Force:
10% * ( 1 + (1 + 2,2)) = 42%

Chance to proc status effect on elemental damage enchant (eg. Shock Enchant) with Gold Charged staff and Elemental Force:
20% * ( 1 + (1 + 2,2)) = 84%

Using Force Shock with hit means that each cast of Force shock has a 42% chance to apply Concussion, and that any Shock enchant proc has a 84% chance to work, with the additional benefit that it doesn't only work on Force Shock. For short, using Force Shock will pretty much guarantee to proc Concussion already.

You have a 90,72% chance to proc concussion with a Force shock cast that also activates the shock enchant, calculations below:
Wild magicka sorc uses Force Shock and procs the Shock enchant!

Case 1 : Concussion applies on Force Shock: 42%
Case 1a Concussion applies on Shock enchant: 84% - Concussed (35,28%)
Case 1b Concussion does not apply on Shock enchant: 16% - Concussed (6,72%)

Case 2: Concussion does not apply on Force Shock: 58%
Case 2a: Concussion applies on Shock enchant: 84% - Concussed (48,72%)
Case 2b: Concussion does not apply on Shock enchant: 16% (9,28%)

Likelihood of applying Concussion: 35,28 + 6,72 + 48,72 = 90,72%
Likelihood of failing to apply Concussion: 9,28%

It also doesn't prevent you from backbarring a poison, it also allows you to use an additional 5p or 2p monster set compared to Asylum. You already get to proc Minor Main (chilled) 42% of the time on Force shock cast, and Concussion is not a problem at all.

If someone tells me that Burning is OP, I'll kindly tell them to stop running in Cyro naked as a stage 4 vamp while being chased by mDKs.

Wizard's riposte allows you to activate Minor main on all targets hitting you, which is what you want in pretty much all situations. The only situation where it makes no difference is 1v1 / duels - which you shouldn't die to as a magicka sorcerer if you know what you are doing. For short: the Asylum staff allows you to avoid using this set for duels.

And because I know that some people will call me out because I didn't mention a specific build: I did NOT say that Asylum weapons are worse, what I am saying is that you already have an option available achieving similar results. If the cooldown of the Asylum staff needs to be increased, the only way to tell is to test both options, see the alternative setups and compare actual data and make proper conclusions.

Additional read

How Charged was second only to Sharpened even before HotR

More on status effects/

You literally shot your argument in the leg when you proposed charged. You have to run a certain setup in order to achieve all that. With the new staff you can run nirn or infused and put a disease glyph on top, for major defile. That's plain broken.

Avran_Sylt · September 2017

Hmm... Interesting thoughts all around. And given that this is all group content (and have normal variants) it may be worth taking it down a notch.

Biro123 · September 2017

idk.. everyone talking about this as being a buff to sorcs..

Nobody complaining about having to do endgame PVE to get the best PVP weapon...

I'd rather have a proper class spammable instead of having to use CS, having to run trials to get this, and then getting hated on for having to use this because of not having a class spammable.

Sorcs have feelings too!

ParaNostram · September 2017

When things available for anyone to use come into existence, everyone says it's a sorc buff. Literally any class could use this, and with how the staff buffs the ability literally any magica build will want to use this. But yeah say it's just sorcs getting love.

BohnT · September 2017

ParaNostram wrote: »

When things available for anyone to use come into existence, everyone says it's a sorc buff. Literally any class could use this, and with how the staff buffs the ability literally any magica build will want to use this. But yeah say it's just sorcs getting love.

Because all other classes have a spammable that synergises with their overall setup and by using it they have to give up utility or damage while sorcs already use it and now gain much more from it. So yeah it is a buff that benefits sorcs more than others so it is a sorc buff

NBrookus · September 2017

Magblades will benefit as well, true. Destro staff magplars are rare. MagDK's won't, because destro staff builds that don't involve hiding in the safety of a zerg for magDK are extremely rare. (And everything works hiding in the safety of a zerg, so it's moot.)

It is a major sorc buff. Ironically, if you gave sorcs a good class spammable that made them think twice about using crushing shock, it'd be less of a sorc-favored buff but the staff would still be too strong.

DeHei · September 2017

Dont compare aples with bananas pls

Biro123 · September 2017

ParaNostram wrote: »

When things available for anyone to use come into existence, everyone says it's a sorc buff. Literally any class could use this, and with how the staff buffs the ability literally any magica build will want to use this. But yeah say it's just sorcs getting love.

It was always thus:..

Destro ult - sorc buff
Healing ulti - sorc buff
8% dmg buff to destro users - sorc buff
Pirate skeleton - sorcs op
Shadowrend change - sorc buff!
NB nerfed = Sorc Buff!

according to some.

DeHei · September 2017

ParaNostram wrote: »

When things available for anyone to use come into existence, everyone says it's a sorc buff. Literally any class could use this, and with how the staff buffs the ability literally any magica build will want to use this. But yeah say it's just sorcs getting love.

That skill benefit extreme from master at arms. Which classes benefitted too from master at arms more then others. Magicks sorcs and magicka nightblades. Magicka warden too if you play like that.
With this knowledge its a buff for Sorcs...

idk · September 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

Crystal Frags is not a spammable, and status effects buff/debuff for all skills not just crushing shock.

I was puzzled by the comments comparison as well.

Even the insta cast when proced doesn't make it a spamable since well, it cannot be spammed.

While Time will tell of the new weapon will be worthy, I was a good choice of skill to augment with the new dStaff.

idk · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

When things available for anyone to use come into existence, everyone says it's a sorc buff. Literally any class could use this, and with how the staff buffs the ability literally any magica build will want to use this. But yeah say it's just sorcs getting love.

It was always thus:..

Destro ult - sorc buff
Healing ulti - sorc buff
8% dmg buff to destro users - sorc buff
Pirate skeleton - sorcs op
Shadowrend change - sorc buff!
NB nerfed = Sorc Buff!

according to some.

Which is why we no longer see raid groups made up of mostly sorcs.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · September 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@DeadlyRecluse

Checking against my mDK (who I haven't played in a while) I see Flame Lash I dealing 7.3K Damage (I am a Dark Elf), and Crushing Shock dealing 5.9K.

Flame Lash can deal even more damage and heal me, while Crushing Shock can just interrupt.

I don't have a mNB so I can't check against that.

Quick points "just" interrupt no one care about the interruption, in terms of Sorcs their shields are better then any heal. The drop a HoT and set behind a shield or two and will be good without the burst heal. The uptime is the madness here.

Karmanorway wrote: »

Im more interested in how difficult it will be to actually get that staff. Maybe finally a worthy reward for hard work?

Sadly no this will broke day one I'm calling it now with the power to retrait (only a matter of time before you can buy it in the crown store) you only need to get one staff and it's a 100% drop in Vet so just get the right kind and transmute it to the right trait.

This was poorly thought out.