Ice staff/warden ice mage still underperforming?

billp_ESO · September 2017

I just came back and was looking at the warden. I always liked ice characters and wanted to make a ice mage warden. Everything I read says it's below par. Is that still the case? Anything coming soon?

Asardes · September 2017

Ice blockade is more an utility skill since it has a chance to induce chilled status for minor maim and a snare on targets but overall ice staff and warden ice abilities are more suited to tanking than DPS. Ex. having an ice staff equipped gives block cost reduction and block mitigation passives and fully charged heavy attacks taunt. It's weaker than fire and lightning in terms of DPS. That's one of the reasons magicka warden is dead last among classes in terms of DPS. It might work in PvP but in high end PvE it's inferior by a large margin.

idk · September 2017

^^^. Ice was never designed to be a solid dps element. While the ice staff SS made into a tanking weapon it is a sub par choice as well.

Abeille · September 2017

Yes it is underperforming. I have an Ice Mage but it's an RP build and she is my 10th character (rerolled my second Magicka Sorcerer when Warden went live), so I have a bunch of other characters I can use when I need stuff done. I wouldn't focus on it if I were you.

Zimbugga · September 2017

My friend's best DPS is Ice magicka warden. Have same DPS than mine magicka sorcerer. Ysgramor's Birthfright -set and Iceheart -monster sets are good to build Ice Warden DPS. You don't need unlock "Tri Focus"-passive from Desctruction staff..

akl77 · September 2017

Do you know ice staff heavy attack taunt mobs and bosses? If you want the boss to attack you and you only and kills you then go ahead and use it.
Heavy attack is essential for regaining magicka btw.

Skander · September 2017

The matter is that inferno gives 8% more dmg on single target, lightning 8% on AOE dmg. Frost taunts, that's why isn't good enough.

MyKillv2.0 · September 2017

Yes, MagWardens do lack in top end raid DPS. You read that correctly. However unless you plan on joining a top end, vet trial group that pushes leaderboards (which is what? Maybe a couple thousand people world wide across all six servers) MagWardens are just fine. You can more than hold your own in pvp. In vet4man content, you bring a hell of a lot of ultility on top of decent Dps. Too many people use values based on top end leaderboard VetTrial content and try to use it as values for everything else.

OP sounds like they want to try to make a Ice Magic Warden. So try it out, you will be able to find a way to make it work.

Megabear · September 2017

"Ice" in this game is very poorly designed/implemented.

Lieblingsjunge · September 2017

If you've ever met a good ice staff-warden in PvP, you know exactly how annoying/strong they can be. It's the playstyle I guess. Similar to the old magblade build with winterborn. Magwarden is probably the best class in terms of utility and interesting class abilities. It's healing is also pretty decent. They have everything in one class. Undodgeable spammable ability to be set-up by the ground-aoe, then you use Wall of elements(ice) to snare. Then they can have insane survivability in their sleet storm/Tree. Add in a healing ward from a resto staff as well and you're good to go.

A snaring ice warden in pvp is a nightmare to fight. For DPS it's also not bad I guess - but be careful about Ice-heavy attacks, as they taunt.

^I don't know much about PvE, but everything is pretty much said here:

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

Yes, MagWardens do lack in top end raid DPS. You read that correctly. However unless you plan on joining a top end, vet trial group that pushes leaderboards (which is what? Maybe a couple thousand people world wide across all six servers) MagWardens are just fine. You can more than hold your own in pvp. In vet4man content, you bring a hell of a lot of ultility on top of decent Dps. Too many people use values based on top end leaderboard VetTrial content and try to use it as values for everything else.

OP sounds like they want to try to make a Ice Magic Warden. So try it out, you will be able to find a way to make it work.

Vaoh · September 2017

It's very bad. "Underperforming" isn't the correct term, since by design it has no chance to perform even somewhat decently in the first place. The purpose of your Ice Staff Warden mage is to suck at ESO atm. Sorry..... at you you can RP with it though, right?

Gonna take an Ice Staff AND Winter's Revenge skill line overhaul to make Magicka Wardens (as well as your Ice Mage) viable at dealing damage. In other words, no ETA. Give ZOS another year and we'll see where we end up

Kahina · September 2017

I have a Warden. She is a Stam Warden. She is also a caricature of my very first ESO char, back when the game was first released.

It is is somewhat disappointing that she must leave Tri Focus out of the build just to avoid the agro. Tri Focus should give crowd movement CC and damage shield, with no agro.

SoLooney · September 2017

ice staves and the element itself is used more as a debuff instead of dps, which is why you see end game magicka dps using fire and or lightning staves

Chronicburn · September 2017

I know I avoid the ice staff on my magplar and sorc like the plague now that I heard it pulls aggro ....

Arbit · September 2017

would be nice if they remodeled ice staffs because its currently in a really useless place. tanks scarcely use it either. would be nice if it had a place for mages to actually use it, rather than where its at. Id consider using it if it had some relevance in end game, even if it was just for kiting.

Integral1900 · September 2017

Ice dps is okay I suppose, in normal it won't make to much difference, in dlc dungeons or vet you will really feel it unless you are in the top few percent of players, I'm average at best and the damage is so much less it feels like it's bugged

Personally as a part time tank I would say for the love of god don't use a frost staff! I can't hold taunt if you keep taunting every time you heavy attack, the big guys become immune if you over taunt, and believe you me that while you can simply leave the passive out that causes the taunt I can sodding well guarantee that any frost staff weilder in the group will have just taken all the passives and not read any of them!!!

Kahina · September 2017

Integral1900 wrote: »

... while you can simply leave the passive out that causes the taunt I can sodding well guarantee that any frost staff weilder in the group will have just taken all the passives and not read any of them!!!

And this is the real problem with it. This is why a change is needed. Leaving out an all important passive to make something work in groups demonstrates fault by design.

RaddlemanNumber7 · September 2017

When Wardens first came out I built an end-game Ice mage using a template on the PTS. To me it looked like an Ice mage would be the only Warden build that would be viable without trying to make something of that silly bear. I found that as a solo World Boss killer this Nord Ice Mage Warden was a noticeably easier ride than the other classes' magicka builds. It had good shields, good resistance buffs, strong attacks at both close and long range, steady self-healing, and very good sustain with the netch. When I start on my 14th character that is what it's going to be.

If you play PVE solo, like I do, that taunt business with the Ice Staff just doesn't matter. You're going to get all the agro anyway.

My experience of fighting against Wardens in PvP shows they are quite hard to kill, and that cliff racer is a real pain.

By the way, don't try stealth with Warden in PvP. Some of the spell graphics remain visible to the enemy when you are hidden. The tether to the netch is really an enormous give-away.

Mettaricana · September 2017

I feel like ice staff needs a passive 1.5k armor amd spell bonus to make up for shields being reinforced and a defending weapon their light attack or clench should be the taunt and i feel like their blocade should be an aoe taunt. And lastly i feel like the cost reduction needs to be increased normal tanks can draw on stamina and magicka to fufill needs, while ice staff loses all recovery while blocking drains magicka while using skills and lacks alot of basics to make it functional may even get somewhere if 2 handed weapons became 2pc sets but as it stands now i barely trust a frost tank in a normal dungeon..

Warden on other hand seems ok but loses a ton from long cast animations and lack luster passives to barely do anything compared to all other classes

MLGProPlayer · September 2017

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

Yes, MagWardens do lack in top end raid DPS. You read that correctly. However unless you plan on joining a top end, vet trial group that pushes leaderboards (which is what? Maybe a couple thousand people world wide across all six servers) MagWardens are just fine. You can more than hold your own in pvp. In vet4man content, you bring a hell of a lot of ultility on top of decent Dps. Too many people use values based on top end leaderboard VetTrial content and try to use it as values for everything else.

OP sounds like they want to try to make a Ice Magic Warden. So try it out, you will be able to find a way to make it work.

Magicka warden is not fine for any vet trial runs. Topping out at under 30k DPS means you're a liability even if your team isn't competing for leader boards. It's really not fair to your team to bring such an underpowered class as they will need to carry you.

MagicalSociety · September 2017

If they ever make an ice staff count as two of a 5 piece set I'll give it a try for tanking but until then it's a worthless weapon and you will never progress in content other then maybe some dungeons.

Waffennacht · September 2017

Trexton wrote: »

If they ever make an ice staff count as two of a 5 piece set I'll give it a try for tanking but until then it's a worthless weapon and you will never progress in content other then maybe some dungeons.

This. Every time I go try I just end up going "why?" Does less and have to give up a piece, just not worth it even for fun

exeeter702 · September 2017

It was never "performing" to begin with........

esp1992 · September 2017

No offense.
but...

YOU UNHAPPY BRAIN-DEAD HORKERS!!!!
WHY THE FRICKING HATE!?!?

I Always, ALWAYS, use a Frost Staff ith the Warden as a DPS and, to be honest, Works just fine!

Just Avoid the Tri-Focus Passive for Kyne Sakes! Save those points for better passives. Put points in MAGICKA, wear Julianos and Ysgramor set, enchant Staff with Frost and good to go!

I especially have fun when my enemies are frozen in my Clench and Blockade and can't do a damn thing while I stab them with Ice Spikes, then finish them off with a relentless Sleet Storm!

So yeah... you tell me that's underperforming!

subtlezeroub17_ESO · September 2017

idk wrote: »

^^^. Ice was never designed to be a solid dps element. While the ice staff SS made into a tanking weapon it is a sub par choice as well.

But my thing is no one asked for ice to be made into a tank element. Go here, go on reddit, go on eso fan forums , ask your friends and guildies, hell ask your entire server. Not one person asked for an ice tank and is satisfied with the way they've handled the ice element unless you want to RP and force an ice mage...or want to be different and have accepted sub-mediocrity (and that you'll probably be insta kicked in dungeons)

When the staff was being reworked, people were excited for ice getting "better" at dps. We thought ice mages had finally arrived and yet were disappointed when an already awful use of ice was turned even worse.

Then , Wardens were announced. We thought, maybe ZoS will redeem themselves and throw us a bone. (Though we all knew deep down it was gonna be a tank tree).

So here we are today. The most underused magic element is now extinct barring role players. No serious or even semi serious tank uses frost staves and now to can't even play pretend and get mediocre DPS numbers as a dps anymore. Frost staves are a troll element and it makes me sad that I throw frost staves into the vendor trash category.

exeeter702 · September 2017

esp1992 wrote: »

No offense.
but...

YOU UNHAPPY BRAIN-DEAD HORKERS!!!!
WHY THE FRICKING HATE!?!?

I Always, ALWAYS, use a Frost Staff ith the Warden as a DPS and, to be honest, Works just fine!

Just Avoid the Tri-Focus Passive for Kyne Sakes! Save those points for better passives. Put points in MAGICKA, wear Julianos and Ysgramor set, enchant Staff with Frost and good to go!

I especially have fun when my enemies are frozen in my Clench and Blockade and can't do a damn thing while I stab them with Ice Spikes, then finish them off with a relentless Sleet Storm!

So yeah... you tell me that's underperforming!

Thats cute and all but it doesnt change the fact frost is objectively weaker than fire in pve.

To be fair the op did not specify what type of content they hoping to make frost warden work in. If slaying overland mobs sure knock yourself out. It is still weak nonetheless when directly compared to the alternatives.

Frost element has been relegated to utility first and foremost. Added defense, damage reduction debuff, roots and slows. There is nothing in this game that pushes players into utilizing these aspects of the frost element in a solo environment where better results cant be achieved by alternative methods.

Frost is a proper idea on paper but it had no place in this game as it currently stands.

FoolishHuman · September 2017

It's like people using 1 hand and shield and complaining why their dps build doesn't work with it. Warden ice mages are tanks, it's as simple as that and totally playable.

Vaoh · September 2017

esp1992 wrote: »

No offense.
but...

YOU UNHAPPY BRAIN-DEAD HORKERS!!!!
WHY THE FRICKING HATE!?!?

I Always, ALWAYS, use a Frost Staff ith the Warden as a DPS and, to be honest, Works just fine!

Just Avoid the Tri-Focus Passive for Kyne Sakes! Save those points for better passives. Put points in MAGICKA, wear Julianos and Ysgramor set, enchant Staff with Frost and good to go!

I especially have fun when my enemies are frozen in my Clench and Blockade and can't do a damn thing while I stab them with Ice Spikes, then finish them off with a relentless Sleet Storm!

So yeah... you tell me that's underperforming!

It's underperforming... badly. Your particular setup would be really cool to RP as an Ice Mage and for Normal Dungeons though.

For tougher Vet dungeons however, it would take a good player (using a solid rotation) with high CP and Gold gear for that build to put out enough damage to not be a liability. Based on your description of your own build in PvP, I doubt you actually kill anything yourself. Rather you root enemies and have your group kill them, since the damage output on that build would be too low even with your Sleet Storm Ult active to take out any decently built players.

Please don't take this as me bashing you as that isn't my goal here - I'm just telling it how it is. An Ice Staff Magicka Warden puts out horrible DPS because even the very best Magicka Warden DPS builds put out bad DPS compared to any other class spec. Using an Ice Staff and not speccing into DPS passives makes it even worse.

Magicka Warden
RP = 10/10
PvE DPS = 1/10 , worst of any class spec ever and buggy

Fun fact: Ice Spike is actually a Cold-based DPS skill that only NPCs can use

tinythinker · September 2017

Minor maim (15% damage reduction) and being snared/immobilized is niche effect toward mobs aimed at tanking. If you are giving up damage you need adequate compensation that is broadly applicable.

For example, have the chilled effect last longer. Have the destro passive give a percent boost to all magicka shields rather than add a short damage shield. And so on. Then the lower damage is properly balanced. Still not good for dps but at least better at tanking. Also better for certain support situations as off-healer and for some NB and Warden PvP builds.

Asardes · September 2017

Also ice has no synergies and no damage bonuses compared to fire and lightning:
- Lightning has 8% bonus AoE damage to all skills cast from that bar as long as a destro staff skill is slotted and heavy attacks transfer the full damage to nearby targets.
- Fire has 8% bonus ST damage as long as a destro staff skill is slotted and heavy attacks do 12% more damage. Also all flame damage is boosted by 8% by magDK engulfing flames skill.

There's simply no way ice damage can beat that due to the lack of synergy with skills and passives.

s7732425ub17_ESO · September 2017

Zimbugga wrote: »

My friend's best DPS is Ice magicka warden. Have same DPS than mine magicka sorcerer. Ysgramor's Birthfright -set and Iceheart -monster sets are good to build Ice Warden DPS. You don't need unlock "Tri Focus"-passive from Desctruction staff..

Obviously you've never used this stuff. Iceheart 2 piece is a downright terrible set. Also, why use a set that gives spell damage to cold abilities when much of a Warden's damage is untyped "magic" damage? Your mag sorc DPS must be very low because there is no way Warden will get anywhere close to mag sorc DPS using this gear.