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PvE - The MagDK issue

  • IcyDeadPeople
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    What about just making the morph effect of Draw Essence a part of the base Inhale skill and then adding a morph that increases the magicka return by 200% (~1300 magicka per enemy hit)?

    Oh that sounds fun, but I suspect it would generate industrial quantities of salt in PVP.
    Kilandros wrote: »
    We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

    Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

    A Magdk gets pretty much nothing in pvp in terms of stamina return, it's not worth worrying about. it won't save you at all.

    Tanks all have more stam than mag anyway so it's unaffected.

    I believe you have it a bit backwards. Mag DK gets massive stam from helping hands now. If your stam is below 19,800, you got a huge buff with Morrowind patch and stam DK got nerf. It was made a flat value, so mag and stam DK both get same amount.

    This is how mag DK is able to block in both PVP and PVE.

    Dragonknight
    • Earthen Heart
      • Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
        Developer Comments:
        This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
      • Helping Hands: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.
        Developer Comments:
        This will be a buff if your Maximum Stamina is below 19,800 and a reduction if it is above.

    @IcyDeadPeople Um, what? In PvP mDK stamina sustain comes from Impreg plus sturdy traits, Battle Roar, and Tripots. I don't run a single Earthen Heart ability except Fossilize since Magicka sustain (in 5 Impreg 5 DR 2 Valkyn - 5 Light all sturdy) is currently more difficult than sustaining my stamina.

    The Helping Hands passive used to be nice before the Major Mending on Igneous was gutted, but it simply isn't worth adding an expensive Magicka skill for the sake of occasionally getting 900 stamina--especially since Magicka management is currently more problematic for mDK.

    If you never use helping hands, you are missing out on a pretty strong mechanic in the game available to magicka DK. The way this works, it got a nice boost for mag DK with Morrowind patch. It's now a flat value based on character level, so the amount of stam returned for stam DK was reduced but amount for mag DK was increased. Same is true for Battle Roar.

    If you hold block your stam regen stops, but your magicka recovery keeps going. In my case as long as I'm getting hit by enemies, I have zero problems with magicka sustain, so if I start running out of stam, I spam fossilize and it allows me to keep blocking. I agree about igneous shield, but this works just as well with fossilize or any other Earthen Heart skill. Even if the target is cc immune, fossilize still instantly converts magicka to stamina.


    Edited by IcyDeadPeople on September 2, 2017 10:36PM
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Magplar and mDK are in a bad spot because people keep coming onto these forums insisting that stamina needs higher DPS because it's melee (which ZoS has done and I'm fine with, even though stamina is only melee because bow isn't very good. Melee is not just stamina) and incorrectly giving the impression that "magicka" = ranged sorcerer with multiple strong damage shields.

    Edited by Joy_Division on September 2, 2017 6:25PM
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    Awesome thread! I 100% agree and can confirm the situation you're facing in endgame as being a real issue. Also props on telling how powerful Stam survivability can be especially while maintaining damage/rotations - you probably had a few ppl yell in disbelief that you would dare say something about Stamina being strong, yet not calling Magicka user shields outstandingly OP or Mag Sorc DPS #1 by a long shot.

    I created a similar thread for a far more severe class spec issue which is Warden (mainly Magicka Warden) DPS, but it's so bad that no one has even bothered to care about that class :disappointed:
    Edited by Vaoh on September 2, 2017 9:01PM
  • modaretto
    modaretto
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_Finn, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

    really good mag DK feedback topic
    Edited by modaretto on September 3, 2017 10:46AM
    Watches-the-wind (Templar healer) / PC EU

    Dragon's Crest
  • Kammakazi
    Kammakazi
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    So how do we fix Mag DK PvE without making people complain in PvP?
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Just double battle roar, DK has no other ways to sustain and costly abilities. It won't be broken for PvP because DK has even worse sustain there.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Norn
    Norn
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    Kammakazi wrote: »
    So how do we fix Mag DK PvE without making people complain in PvP?

    Well obviously the best way to go about is to separate PVP and PVE(which would solve a lot of issues in this game not just MagDK) but we all know it's never gonna happen.

  • IcyDeadPeople
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    Kammakazi wrote: »
    So how do we fix Mag DK PvE without making people complain in PvP?

    I imagine about any buff at all to mag dk will cause people to complain. A couple mag DK abilities don't seem to be working properly right now, though.

    Obsidian shard is a very large heal, but it's useless because it heals a random ally, not lowest health nor even closest to the target. Would help if it were changed to prioritize lowest health ally like healing ward.

    Igneous shield doesn't work because it gets overwritten when you have two different DKs in the party, and the ally shield is too small when cast by mag DK. I think it needs separate morphs for DK healer (major mending, larger ally shield scaled on magicka) vs tank (larger self shield).

    Chains doesn't work if you are on slightly uneven terrain.

    As others mentioned, flame lash is a bit unreliable because the off-balance gets consumed by other allies. Maybe status effects like off-balance, concussed, burning etc should last a specific duration of X seconds, even if target is hit by multiple players.

    Reflective scales needs adjustment as well - currently it allows some DoTs to go through the reflect which should be reflected back to the enemy.


    Edited by IcyDeadPeople on September 4, 2017 4:00PM
  • MakoFore
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    i agree. right now sure- mag dk can pull some enormous target skeleton parses- but in a practical sense- in vMA - which i think is a good barometer for a class- they suck. heavy attacking is a boring and frustrating way to play- and the sustain is so bad its just unenjoyable. the skills themselves on a dk are the most fun for me- they look awesome- the fire everywhere makes it look great- it just feels terrible- like a corvette- good looking but with terrible handling. the solution isn't to keep nerfing other classes or to tweak with damage- but to make it so that each class FEELS good to play. that means light attack weaving and animation cancelling as much as possible- even on heavy attacks. top players like quick , fluid, and rapid key stirkes- its been proven that such gamplaye generally in gaming is more enjoyable than holding down a button. people like a ryhytm and a payoff for that rhythm . which is why sorc is generally the most fun to play right now- and also magblade- because the proc off crystal frag and assasins will is difficult but satisfying- these are inherent gaming theory that was applied well. making a class require slow button pressing and constant resource struggles makes it suck- again like a car that can't steer and guzzles petrol . like a car- handling is more important that speed- and handling wins a race. they need to make this class handle better.
  • Qbiken
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    MakoFore wrote: »
    i agree. right now sure- mag dk can pull some enormous target skeleton parses- but in a practical sense- in vMA - which i think is a good barometer for a class- they suck. heavy attacking is a boring and frustrating way to play- and the sustain is so bad its just unenjoyable. the skills themselves on a dk are the most fun for me- they look awesome- the fire everywhere makes it look great- it just feels terrible- like a corvette- good looking but with terrible handling. the solution isn't to keep nerfing other classes or to tweak with damage- but to make it so that each class FEELS good to play. that means light attack weaving and animation cancelling as much as possible- even on heavy attacks. top players like quick , fluid, and rapid key stirkes- its been proven that such gamplaye generally in gaming is more enjoyable than holding down a button. people like a ryhytm and a payoff for that rhythm . which is why sorc is generally the most fun to play right now- and also magblade- because the proc off crystal frag and assasins will is difficult but satisfying- these are inherent gaming theory that was applied well. making a class require slow button pressing and constant resource struggles makes it suck- again like a car that can't steer and guzzles petrol . like a car- handling is more important that speed- and handling wins a race. they need to make this class handle better.

    For vMA magDK is ok-ish (I´ve managed to get 560k+ score), but I agree that heavy-attacking or to rely on off-balance support to sustain is bad design (looking at you Morrowind update who killed sustain for magDK, was barely manageable before Morrowind)
  • Hamburglarjones
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    MakoFore wrote: »
    i agree. right now sure- mag dk can pull some enormous target skeleton parses- but in a practical sense- in vMA - which i think is a good barometer for a class- they suck. heavy attacking is a boring and frustrating way to play- and the sustain is so bad its just unenjoyable. the skills themselves on a dk are the most fun for me- they look awesome- the fire everywhere makes it look great- it just feels terrible- like a corvette- good looking but with terrible handling. the solution isn't to keep nerfing other classes or to tweak with damage- but to make it so that each class FEELS good to play. that means light attack weaving and animation cancelling as much as possible- even on heavy attacks. top players like quick , fluid, and rapid key stirkes- its been proven that such gamplaye generally in gaming is more enjoyable than holding down a button. people like a ryhytm and a payoff for that rhythm . which is why sorc is generally the most fun to play right now- and also magblade- because the proc off crystal frag and assasins will is difficult but satisfying- these are inherent gaming theory that was applied well. making a class require slow button pressing and constant resource struggles makes it suck- again like a car that can't steer and guzzles petrol . like a car- handling is more important that speed- and handling wins a race. they need to make this class handle better.

    For vMA magDK is ok-ish (I´ve managed to get 560k+ score), but I agree that heavy-attacking or to rely on off-balance support to sustain is bad design (looking at you Morrowind update who killed sustain for magDK, was barely manageable before Morrowind)

    Yeah, my biggest gripe with magDK is that we are bound to off-balance. On a skeleton you can get a 90% proc rate or so but in trial it's usually around 50-60% in an organised group and often below that anywhere outside of that. Skeleton at 90% procrate gives us the bare minimum in sustain so it really isn't uncommon to have to start heavy attacking in trial which just brings us further and further behind.
    Boone
    Dunmer Magicka DragonKnight
    MagDK raid build guide
    Guild: Dragon's Crest - retired
    World's 3rd vHoF clear & 3rd vHoF HM clear
  • Hamburglarjones
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    Norn wrote: »
    Kammakazi wrote: »
    So how do we fix Mag DK PvE without making people complain in PvP?

    Well obviously the best way to go about is to separate PVP and PVE(which would solve a lot of issues in this game not just MagDK) but we all know it's never gonna happen.

    Yeah, i don't ever expect that to happen. It's sad because the concept doesn't work. Everyone respecs for pvp/pve anyways if they know what they are doing.
    Edited by Hamburglarjones on September 5, 2017 2:48PM
    Boone
    Dunmer Magicka DragonKnight
    MagDK raid build guide
    Guild: Dragon's Crest - retired
    World's 3rd vHoF clear & 3rd vHoF HM clear
  • Saint_Bud
    Saint_Bud
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    Rework light and medium armour to pre morrowind status. Reduce all ability coasts by 10-12% and change obs back also+ fix synergys. Let the people play a light attack build if they want, zos said that it should outperform a heavy attack build but thats not true. Reasurcenmanagment will be still harder but then there will ne options and not only heavy attack. Make only fully charged heavy attacks remove offbalance, medium weaves are easyer for not so good players and in a bad performamce situation. Important one at last, fix performance in raids, once i raid with 40+ fps, now i am happy when i have 20.
    PVP Saint-Bud magicka Templar: AR 49
    PVE Lord Victarion mDK : dro'm-Athra-Destroyer pre Morrowind retired for crafting
    PVE Ramsay-Bolton magicka NB: Voice of Reason Clockwork City Patch retired
    VAA hm/ VHRC hm/ VSO hm/ VMOL hm/ VHOF hm/ VAS hm clear

    Stop playing PVE because its boring, content not disigned for melee players and class balance and sustain is ***
  • Cybercore_Death
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    IMO (and i appreciate that this would take a lot of man hours that ZoS just wouldn't be willing to invest) they need to rework all Mag and all Stam so at base they all do pretty similar damage and have pretty similar base resource return. If they all hit for around the same amount of base damage then it would just be down to what skills you wanna use and how you wanna play as to which you route you would go down.

    The obvious problem with this is that all skills across all classes would need to be looked at and reworked so they all offer similar numbers to each other (which given the variety of skills would take a bit to align).

    Racial passives should stay as they are because they will then add their own little twists still.

    I realise that the main issue with this is that most of the gear in game would then become redundant and you'd be looking pretty much the same Mag and Stam sets being used by everyone (though that's not too different from what happens now when you look at current and up to date build guides online).

    Other than my poor attempt at trying to gain a balance i really love my mDK DD and i hope something gets done as i started as an mDK DD and changed to an sDK DD for the higher damage output. Then i changed to an sDK Tank to try and mix it up abit but ended up back where i started as an mDK DD because i missed the play style.

    The other option is that ZoS look at everyones build and post them online (including the elite builds with the highest numbers) so we can all see what we need to be doing to keep up with the best of them.
    I'm a Dunmer DK Damage Dealer - My that's a lot of D's
  • theamazingx
    theamazingx
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    The other option is that ZoS look at everyones build and post them online (including the elite builds with the highest numbers) so we can all see what we need to be doing to keep up with the best of them.

    The "elite" builds are already posted online. ZoS has even promoted Alcast's videos in the past.
  • Faulgor
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    Forgive me if I talk nonsense, but what if Flame Lash procced on burning targets instead of off-balance?

    There's much more synergy for DKs here, e.g. with Burning Spellweave, using HAs for sustain wouldn't compete with your main spammable proc or with other people in trials, and we could use fire WoE, which profits from Engulfing Flames, and burning as well.

    I'm unsure about the uptime of Flame Lash in this scenario, but it seems like a simple enough change with lots of positive effects.
    Edited by Faulgor on September 10, 2017 2:14PM
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Cybercore_Death
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    The other option is that ZoS look at everyones build and post them online (including the elite builds with the highest numbers) so we can all see what we need to be doing to keep up with the best of them.

    The "elite" builds are already posted online. ZoS has even promoted Alcast's videos in the past.

    Of course, but there will always be someone better with a more powerful build we don't yet have the details for. Builds that take min/max to the literal min/max over and above the likes of Alcast and Deltia etc...
    I'm a Dunmer DK Damage Dealer - My that's a lot of D's
  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    The other option is that ZoS look at everyones build and post them online (including the elite builds with the highest numbers) so we can all see what we need to be doing to keep up with the best of them.

    The "elite" builds are already posted online. ZoS has even promoted Alcast's videos in the past.

    Of course, but there will always be someone better with a more powerful build we don't yet have the details for. Builds that take min/max to the literal min/max over and above the likes of Alcast and Deltia etc...

    Those are like 0.5% better...you can calculate yourself how much more DPS they will give you....
    Tbh if you just use alcasts builds you have everything (gear/skillwise) you need to beat all trials with hardmode...
    Noobplar
  • Hamburglarjones
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Forgive me if I talk nonsense, but what if Flame Lash procced on burning targets instead of off-balance?

    There's much more synergy for DKs here, e.g. with Burning Spellweave, using HAs for sustain wouldn't compete with your main spammable proc or with other people in trials, and we could use fire WoE, which profits from Engulfing Flames, and burning as well.

    I'm unsure about the uptime of Flame Lash in this scenario, but it seems like a simple enough change with lots of positive effects.

    That's a great idea really. My concern is in pvp it would be too powerful if you couldn't cleanse burning every time.
    Boone
    Dunmer Magicka DragonKnight
    MagDK raid build guide
    Guild: Dragon's Crest - retired
    World's 3rd vHoF clear & 3rd vHoF HM clear
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Forgive me if I talk nonsense, but what if Flame Lash procced on burning targets instead of off-balance?

    There's much more synergy for DKs here, e.g. with Burning Spellweave, using HAs for sustain wouldn't compete with your main spammable proc or with other people in trials, and we could use fire WoE, which profits from Engulfing Flames, and burning as well.

    I'm unsure about the uptime of Flame Lash in this scenario, but it seems like a simple enough change with lots of positive effects.

    That's a great idea really. My concern is in pvp it would be too powerful if you couldn't cleanse burning every time.

    Because you can CC-break off-balance but not burning? Hm yeah, I could see that. Of course your Whip would effectively cleanse the burning, but it might become an issue. Don't think it would make DKs in general overpowered, though.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • WatchYourSixx
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    I personally think they should change molten whips. The damage buff to the skills is so pitiful there's no reason not to run flame lash. And since they are so intent on having dks suffer in cost, then I'd say make molten whip a % chance to proc a free cast whip on a Target that's burning or some variation of that.
    The only thing to fear is, fear itself. - FDR

    CP 800
    PC NA

    - Maximus the Marksman (AD) Temp
    - Rex the Unstoppable Force (DC) DK
    - Sodor Dragonfire (DC) DK
    - Masha'Dar Shadow-Paw (DC) NB
    - Magnus the Mage (DC) Sorc
  • I_killed_Vivec
    I_killed_Vivec
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Forgive me if I talk nonsense, but what if Flame Lash procced on burning targets instead of off-balance?

    There's much more synergy for DKs here, e.g. with Burning Spellweave, using HAs for sustain wouldn't compete with your main spammable proc or with other people in trials, and we could use fire WoE, which profits from Engulfing Flames, and burning as well.

    I'm unsure about the uptime of Flame Lash in this scenario, but it seems like a simple enough change with lots of positive effects.

    A very nice idea, but I think possibly too nice ;)

    Though there are precedents - for example Force Pulse affecting additional mobs that are already on fire.

    I'd be happy if Talons worked better. It is only useful on trash mobs because anything stronger is immune, which makes it useless if you want to line up the whip. And that's if it actually goes off properly...

  • Salganis
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    I play as a magica DK and i complete VhoF and Vmol without HM
    And I'm not stuck in what you say for the most part
    first of all the DK does a good dps and very good AOE and has an excellent survival if you combine the shield with volatil armor.
    the only thing I share is that being mele occupies a specific place and can not move away like the NB or Sorcers and we do less dps than stamina and it is logical because stamina recive bonus from maelstrom bow.
    *burning embers is a very mele skill of 5 meters and it is difficult to apply it in some moments because it asks too much proximity
    I never stay in trials without resources and I used wichmoder brug and the ather food and is the same I do not run out of magica, DK have good sustain you recover them with ultimate.
    Developers should not increase the dps gap and what you are asking is to increase it which is crazy the nerfs are good if they are consistent
    I do not like in the least to see excellent players with excellent ping
    with a perfect trail configuration that can achieve outstanding dps, (i play with 250 pin minimun)
    and that allows them to skip the most difficult mechanics of the game and reduce by 70% or 60% the duration of a fight that end in reducing the probability of errors
    Edited by Salganis on September 12, 2017 3:41AM
  • Norn
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    Salganis wrote: »
    I play as a magica DK and i complete VhoF and Vmol without HM

    I'm not saying your feedback has no value but this part doesn't honestly mean anything if you typed it as a means of proving that MagDK is viable. Non-HM Maw or HOF is nothing, you can complete it even in training runs with 4-5 people that has never done it before and are even low CP.

    What OP is saying is mostly about high-end raiding. Having a certain balance between each class/spec even at top level so people can play whatever they want, instead of being forced to a certain class or role because the class they love and put thousands of hours is 10-15K DPS behind of others. No one is expecting perfect balance, you can ignore being behind by 2-3-4K dps but when it's 10-15K it's impossible to ignore.
  • Sanctuary
    Sanctuary
    Norn wrote: »
    Salganis wrote: »
    I play as a magica DK and i complete VhoF and Vmol without HM

    I'm not saying your feedback has no value but this part doesn't honestly mean anything if you typed it as a means of proving that MagDK is viable. Non-HM Maw or HOF is nothing, you can complete it even in training runs with 4-5 people that has never done it before and are even low CP
    In VETERAN mol / hof ??

  • Norn
    Norn
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    Sanctuary wrote: »
    Norn wrote: »
    Salganis wrote: »
    I play as a magica DK and i complete VhoF and Vmol without HM

    I'm not saying your feedback has no value but this part doesn't honestly mean anything if you typed it as a means of proving that MagDK is viable. Non-HM Maw or HOF is nothing, you can complete it even in training runs with 4-5 people that has never done it before and are even low CP
    In VETERAN mol / hof ??

    Yes? Why would I even mention non-Vet content lol.
  • Kilandros
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    Forgive me if I talk nonsense, but what if Flame Lash procced on burning targets instead of off-balance?

    There's much more synergy for DKs here, e.g. with Burning Spellweave, using HAs for sustain wouldn't compete with your main spammable proc or with other people in trials, and we could use fire WoE, which profits from Engulfing Flames, and burning as well.

    I'm unsure about the uptime of Flame Lash in this scenario, but it seems like a simple enough change with lots of positive effects.

    That's a great idea really. My concern is in pvp it would be too powerful if you couldn't cleanse burning every time.

    Honestly would be a nerf to PvP since I can apply off-balance at will whereas burning is RNG.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
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