PvE - The MagDK issue

Hamburglarjones

Hello everyone, my name is Boone. I play as a DD in Dragon’s Crest Guild and I have mained a magDK for most of my time on ESO. However after Morrowind the class simply had no use in top PvE groups and I believe it is underperforming. In my video examples I will stick to a robust skeleton with a charged lightning wall and major breach/fracture provided.

A lot of people will see a MagDK skeleton parse and think to themselves “wow, that class is pretty strong!” What these people don’t see is this is the perfect situation for a magDK and it cannot or very rarely will get this good in a trial. One of the main problems is Power lash inconsistency.

POWER LASH

Power lash morphs into a free spammable skill as long as the target is off-balanced in the same game tick you activate the skill. Sounds great right? The problem is in a trial situation, especially in a non-organized group off balance can be quite inconsistent. Heavy attacks consume offbalance at a high rate and quite often concussion isn’t being reapplied every 3 seconds in mechanically heavy fights. I think any magDK main can agree with me that they hate being reliant on this skill in PvE. At the moment a MagDK relies on that free spammable because their magicka recovery is fairly equal to their magicka expenditure per second excluding the whip. For the sake of comparison I will show what damage I could achieve with a normal build/rotation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkZ24w2yKAg

I did a test where a magDK gets absolutely no whip procs just to see how much whip costs over a full rotation. The whip itself would cost the same as almost ALL OF our recovery, to demonstrate this on a dummy I had to change to molten whip and equip extreme regen gear (it has the same cost so no worries).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch8jg5eGFFU

813 magicka per second for our spammable! Not usable whatsoever. Personally I believe molten whip is a dead skill except for some very niche builds, such as heavy attack builds that wish to boost ardent flame abilities.

Heavy Attacks

Okay so this is the most obvious solution to our sustain issues. The problem is they just aren’t powerful enough. They are simply too slow. MagDKs to even be close to viable need the absolute max damage from a power lash build. Sacrificing any of our damage for heavy attacks in a normal build is unjustifiable. The time it takes to do one heavy attack -> whip is quite equal to the time it takes to do 2x LA and 2x whip. So in a normal build heavy attacking is just a straight up dps loss.

What about heavy attack builds? Afterall a magDK has molten Armanents, surely this skill can create a sustainable rotation with high damage! In my testing this was much lower than a power lash build.
Heavy attack builds just can’t compare to a power lash build in terms of damage. The inferno heavy attacks especially are just too slow. In a melee position this can be quite dangerous if a fight requires you to block or shield any mechanics which require a quicker reaction time. Either way an example of what I was able to achieve on a heavy attack build is as follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G735Rm3OlNM

It’s simply weaker. A lightning staff build will make us more flexible however we lose the 8% damage bonus to single target abilities which obviously is another big compromise.

Melee position

Okay, before I start this section i want to say one thing: DO NOT NERF STAMINA PLEASE!

In the current Meta for endgame raiding groups there is generally one setup and all top raiding groups are following this trend. Get 2-3 sorcerers for concussion/off-balance uptime and their utility as range dps (magBlade can be useful for range dps also), as for the others, use a stamina class. Stamina currently out dpses every magicka class in a raid situation by a long shot. Generally you can give 5-8k dps single target to a stamina over a magicka class on a dummy with offbalance and fracture. This gap can get larger in a raid with more buffs too. Their sustained AOE damage is quite good also! Stamina characters can have just as good AOE damage as magicka if not even better in many fights.

Stamina users can benefit from off-balance heavy attacks at double the rate a Magicka user can. Since stamina users heavy attacks are so strong, they don’t need to worry about a sustain element at all. You could compare power lash and stamina heavy attacks quite nicely here, the problem being if a stamina heavy attacks a target that isn’t offbalance he gains resources, whereas a power lash user will lose resources.

Stamina users can benefit from more reliable resistance debuff sets. Alkosh is just too inconsistent to use right now on many bosses because synergies are only showing to one person at a time.
Stamina user’s champion points system is set up for more damage through the exploiter passive. Magicka users must stack 75 thaumathurge at least to get the much needed exploiter passive.

To give some sort of comparison I will show a robust skeleton test on my stamplar. I tried to keep the penetration stats as close as I could, however it should be noted that stamina have more flexibility with champion points so they would be able to get more penetration here anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AzVxv66-fQ

So, why should a raid group bring a magDK into their group over a harder hitting, easier sustaining stamina user?
Many people argue that magicka have the luxury of a shield and therefore deserve to have less damage. However, for the last 3 months I have played a stamina Templar and I think any experienced player can agree that deadly cloak is just straight up better than shield providing you have competent healers.
Deadly cloak is a form of protection that is up 100% of the time and also does damage, combined with medium armour stamina are tankier than a user that has no shield and light armour. The problem with shield is it is a reactionary form of protection, it can’t be up 100% like deadly cloak unless you want to seriously gimp your dps output. Magicka users are more vulnerable to high damage mechanics which is generally the only thing that should kill you in an endgame run.

MagDKs bring engulfing flames, that’s worth it right? In a Meta raid group it buffs: StamDKs flames of oblivion, wall of elements, ilambris, burning damage and sunderflame damage (lol). This is a nice buff I completely agree, that’s why many TANKS use it. MagDKs have no reason to be in a raid right now, they take up a precious melee spot, pull less damage and are honestly more vulnerable to dying compared to a stamina user.

The solution here is NOT to nerf stamina. Every update we get, the game is becoming less enjoyable for endgame PvE players when in reality it should be the opposite, all because of unrelenting nerfs. The endgame PvE community really has shrank since I’ve entered it and I’d rather see it grow personally. In my eyes Stamina right now are in a perfect situation, we just need to bring some magicka classes up to their level.

Suggestions

So I have some (admittedly imperfect) suggestions for the dev team but I hope they can see where I'm coming from. I ask you guys to come up with some suggestions that I haven't provided here. Hopefully some stuff too that isn't unrealistic

Balancing a game with PvE and PvP joined together is incredibly hard, and I’ll admit before I begin this that I very rarely play PvP. I believe we as a community need to give constructive, realistic buff suggestions to our loadout. So, if I suggest something that will severely negatively affect PvP don’t hesitate to call me out for it, but please think of a solution yourself. I will suggest things that are going to affect PvP but I will try to explain my choices.

Again, please keep in mind these are suggestions I think would help magDK strictly in PvE:

1. Reduce the heavy attack charge up significantly. As I discussed previously, they simply aren’t worth it in any capacity even in a build focused on buffing them. I admit I can see this affecting PvP however. So I will try provide more magicka sustaining options.

2. Eruption skill – I would like to see this function as an offensive form of channelled focus. I think its damage can be significantly increased, cost decreased and it should return magicka back to the user every 0.5s if there is an enemy inside the AOE. If you regard this ability to be over performing with these changes I’m sure a damage dealing magDK won’t miss the snare it provides anyways, either way cinder storm is a better snare.


3. Molten whip – Cut this spammables cost by half. Double the spell damage it provides to ardent flame abilities. In PvP magDKs use power lash for the heal it provides. A problem with this solution I can see is in group PvP situations. However if a group is co-ordinated enough surely a magDK risking a loss of healing will be okay.

4. Power Lash – I would like to see this be usable if the target is concussed – not necessarily off balanced, right now this ability is good damage wise it’s just so infuriating to play with during a trial due to its inconsistency. Reduce the heal provided by this ability.


5. Give light armour it’s 3% cost reduction per piece back. Fairly understandable request for all magicka users I think.

6. Allow a synergy activation prompt to be seen by multiple people. Right now synergies are so buggy I’m confused why they are even in the game. Only one person can see the activation prompt at a time which just doesn't work in a raid situation where fast paced mechanics are taking place. Synergies should be reliable. I don’t think anyone would disagree with me on this, especially tanks using alkosh or any DD that has used moondancer in the past.

7. Revert orbs not sharing magicka to multiple people once activated. This change in morrowind still confuses me honestly, if a team is cooperating to help each other’s sustain they should be rewarded for it.

8. Scalding rune – I would like to see this ability provide minor force, a magicka version of rearming trap if you will. Would be nice to see its cost reduced. It’s not only magDK that is behind stamina at the moment but I am no expert in their classes so I will keep this guide more focused on DK.


9. Spell absorption CP passive – Reduce the cooldown on this perk, increase the amount it provides. Move the passive to the Apprentice CP tree. Swap with foresight.

10. Exploiter CP passive – move this CP passive to the atronach skill line so both stamina and magicka users can take advantage of it equally. Swap it with Riposte.


11. Battle Roar – I’d like to see this change reverted to the homestead values.

12. Helping hands – Restore magicka also.

DRXHarbinger

Agree, we need something. Still very powerful and yes MagDK is still needed in raids regardless, mainly for Chains and Engulfing as you say. Main bug bear of mine is the resource drain is firkin stupid now.

I think a better solution to Powerlash would be to work it like frags, same perks as it is now but change it to a proc chance with reduced cost or simply allow it to proc when any status affect is applied.

Eruption needs to go back to launch when it gave evasion, it was so good when it had this.

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Hamburglarjones

Yeah you're right about helping hands for sure, that makes a lot more sense than what i suggested

IcyDeadPeople

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

Hamburglarjones

I guess back to square one there. I forgot to mention I don't want all of these suggestions, it would be overpowered I agree, but a good mix of them would surely bring some life back into magDK PvE. If there is one change i want the most, I don't want to be reliant on offbalance in a group. It deters multiple magDKs in a casual group from running together and as I said before isn't reliable which just isn't fun.

theamazingx

A synergy fix would be great, and I like the Eruption concept. Rune as well. I doubt you would see anything like #12 though, would effectively just be an Earthen Heart cost reduction.

I main a magdk, so I honestly wouldn't be adverse to a buff. I don't feel to be underperforming, and frankly the self-reliability when you can apply your own offbalance is crazy strong, but if what you're saying about stam survivability being better than often portrayed is true, I don't see a magdk's place outside of something like a Rakkhat hm that goes into lunar, needing melee runners (cursed stam in hm is gonna be rough, cloak or not). That said, I think our fellow melee magplars are in an even worse spot, and should be kept in mind with any solution. Less dps, less sustain, and a broken execute.

DRXHarbinger

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

A Magdk gets pretty much nothing in pvp in terms of stamina return, it's not worth worrying about. it won't save you at all.

Tanks all have more stam than mag anyway so it's unaffected.

Hamburglarjones

theamazingx wrote: »

A synergy fix would be great, and I like the Eruption concept. Rune as well. I doubt you would see anything like #12 though, would effectively just be an Earthen Heart cost reduction.

I main a magdk, so I honestly wouldn't be adverse to a buff. I don't feel to be underperforming, and frankly the self-reliability when you can apply your own offbalance is crazy strong, but if what you're saying about stam survivability being better than often portrayed is true, I don't see a magdk's place outside of something like a Rakkhat hm that goes into lunar, needing melee runners (cursed stam in hm is gonna be rough, cloak or not). That said, I think our fellow melee magplars are in an even worse spot, and should be kept in mind with any solution. Less dps, less sustain, and a broken execute.

I agree, they seem to be in a bad spot for sure, however I didn't want to comment on their behalf as I don't know much about them in all honesty. The issue about providing your own off-balance through a shock enchant, clench or a lightning staff itself is that you are compromising damage which would put us even further behind our stamina counterparts. Off-balance is just not a reliable mechanic to base our main spammable on. I believe we need more consistency.

IcyDeadPeople

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

A Magdk gets pretty much nothing in pvp in terms of stamina return, it's not worth worrying about. it won't save you at all.

Tanks all have more stam than mag anyway so it's unaffected.

I believe you have it a bit backwards. Mag DK gets massive stam from helping hands now. If your stam is below 19,800, you got a huge buff with Morrowind patch and stam DK got nerf. It was made a flat value, so mag and stam DK both get same amount.

This is how mag DK is able to block in both PVP and PVE.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Earthen Heart
  • Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
  • Helping Hands: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff if your Maximum Stamina is below 19,800 and a reduction if it is above.

theamazingx

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

A Magdk gets pretty much nothing in pvp in terms of stamina return, it's not worth worrying about. it won't save you at all.

Tanks all have more stam than mag anyway so it's unaffected.

No, you have it backwards. Mag DK gets massive stam from helping hands now. If your stam is below 19,800, you got a huge buff with Morrowind patch and stam DK got nerf. It was made a flat value, so mag and stam DK both get same amount.

This is how mag DK is able to block in both PVP and PVE.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Earthen Heart
  • Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
  • Helping Hands: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff if your Maximum Stamina is below 19,800 and a reduction if it is above.

This is true. I've found eruption alone in regular rotation to helps out quite a bit for the frequent blocks in AA hm, or rakkhat hm when assassin positioning gets close to the melee, and it certainly doesn't hurt for a s+b magdk in pvp. Any sustain buff should come from somewhere else imo.

DRXHarbinger

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

A Magdk gets pretty much nothing in pvp in terms of stamina return, it's not worth worrying about. it won't save you at all.

Tanks all have more stam than mag anyway so it's unaffected.

No, you have it backwards. Mag DK gets massive stam from helping hands now. If your stam is below 19,800, you got a huge buff with Morrowind patch and stam DK got nerf. It was made a flat value, so mag and stam DK both get same amount.

This is how mag DK is able to block in both PVP and PVE.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Earthen Heart
  • Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
  • Helping Hands: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff if your Maximum Stamina is below 19,800 and a reduction if it is above.

I really don't have it backwards at all, casting an ability that costs near 4k magika for the sake of returning enough stamina to dodge once is a poor trade off and not worth worrying about.

IcyDeadPeople

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

I really don't have it backwards at all, casting an ability that costs near 4k magika for the sake of returning enough stamina to dodge once is a poor trade off and not worth worrying about.

Well, the way it works in PVP, you can block for days as long as you have enough mag recovery to spam fossilize, igneous shield, any earthen heart ability. Stam recovery stops while blocking, but it doesn't affect mag recovery.

theamazingx

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

A Magdk gets pretty much nothing in pvp in terms of stamina return, it's not worth worrying about. it won't save you at all.

Tanks all have more stam than mag anyway so it's unaffected.

No, you have it backwards. Mag DK gets massive stam from helping hands now. If your stam is below 19,800, you got a huge buff with Morrowind patch and stam DK got nerf. It was made a flat value, so mag and stam DK both get same amount.

This is how mag DK is able to block in both PVP and PVE.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Earthen Heart
  • Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
  • Helping Hands: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff if your Maximum Stamina is below 19,800 and a reduction if it is above.

I really don't have it backwards at all, casting an ability that costs near 4k magika for the sake of returning enough stamina to dodge once is a poor trade off and not worth worrying about.

That's not what it is though. It's not like some super weak magstam version of spell symmetry, it's passive regen from skills you use anyway. Making it based on highest resource would neuter tanky magdk pvp, make magdk stam management harder, and give them an eensy weensy bit of effective regen.

Liofa

Yeah ! Fix mDK !

(So I won't have to use Engulfing Flames)

I second the Eruption resource return suggestion . That skill has so small radius and so high cost , no one uses it in PvP . Remove the snare , no one cares . Other morph is much superior for snare anyways . About 100 each second for each enemy you hit seems reasonable . Templar Rune gives 120 every half a second so ... Both have their own requirements in some way .

I would say just rework Igneous Weapons . No one uses this skill , completely forgotten . Since one morph boosts damage , I think other morph can boost sustain .

Igneous Weapons : Light attacks restore 1% of your highest stat . Heavy attacks charge 20% faster .

Molten Whip needs a rework surely . For each Damage over time effect on enemy you inflicted , reduces cost by 2% .

Such a cool loooking class shouldn't be useless . You get to whip stuff and spit fire after all . Who doesn't want to play this class ?

Qbiken

I can just agree on everyone and single point you make in this thread. Great suggestions as well. Make magDK great again for PvE.

Hamburglarjones

Thanks guys, hopefully the devs can take some suggestions into account!

theamazingx

Liofa wrote: »

Yeah ! Fix mDK !

(So I won't have to use Engulfing Flames)

I second the Eruption resource return suggestion . That skill has so small radius and so high cost , no one uses it in PvP . Remove the snare , no one cares . Other morph is much superior for snare anyways . About 100 each second for each enemy you hit seems reasonable . Templar Rune gives 120 every half a second so ... Both have their own requirements in some way .

I would say just rework Igneous Weapons . No one uses this skill , completely forgotten . Since one morph boosts damage , I think other morph can boost sustain .

Igneous Weapons : Light attacks restore 1% of your highest stat . Heavy attacks charge 20% faster .

Molten Whip needs a rework surely . For each Damage over time effect on enemy you inflicted , reduces cost by 2% .

Such a cool loooking class shouldn't be useless . You get to whip stuff and spit fire after all . Who doesn't want to play this class ?

Sustain from good weaving, I like it. And whip strength based on dots up would be quite neat.

beetleklee

I main MagDK and I want better sustain and not being so reliant on off balance. I've nearly finished my MagSorc because sometimes I feel I'd be more useful on that character, but I don't think Sorc is nearly as fun as my DK and I worked really hard on my DK and don't wanna cast him aside.

It feels bad that I wanna pair with a Sorc or have someone run Elemental Drain so I can sustain well (if not I run blockade on shock bar and run drain myself.) I don't like having to rely on that.

Taking up a melee spot should have some sort of reward but right now MagSorc can stay completely ranged and do more damage (with better shields) and Stam does more dps being in melee. Don't nerf those, just buff MagDK.

Hamburglarjones

beetleklee wrote: »

I main MagDK and I want better sustain and not being so reliant on off balance. I've nearly finished my MagSorc because sometimes I feel I'd be more useful on that character, but I don't think Sorc is nearly as fun as my DK and I worked really hard on my DK and don't wanna cast him aside.

It feels bad that I wanna pair with a Sorc or have someone run Elemental Drain so I can sustain well (if not I run blockade on shock bar and run drain myself.) I don't like having to rely on that.

Taking up a melee spot should have some sort of reward but right now MagSorc can stay completely ranged and do more damage (with better shields) and Stam does more dps being in melee. Don't nerf those, just buff MagDK.

Personally I'm not a fan of the "range deserve to do less damage" idea because usually they are the ones who have to do certain mechanics etc. I agree with the offbalance stuff completely though!

BoiledEgg

Completely agree, sustain on a magicka dk in pve is terrible, i tried using 2 recovery glyphs + witchmother + vampire and i still couldn't sustain a normal rotation. I mean, even on previous patches sustain wasn't very good but it was at least manageble, now i just have to resort to a heavy attack build but dps went down a lot, fortunately i don't play much pve anymore, but i still hope they do something.

Amdar_Godkiller

What about just making the morph effect of Draw Essence a part of the base Inhale skill and then adding a morph that increases the magicka return by 200% (~1300 magicka per enemy hit)?

ak_pvp

I was thinking, make inferno aoe again. And give it a mag regen aspect. (Different to minor magsteal) i.e. consuming inferno 50mag per sec per enemy in your aoe. The healing morph is my pick for the worst ability in the game, so do something with it.

Hamburglarjones

ak_pvp wrote: »

I was thinking, make inferno aoe again. And give it a mag regen aspect. (Different to minor magsteal) i.e. consuming inferno 50mag per sec per enemy in your aoe. The healing morph is my pick for the worst ability in the game, so do something with it.

Yeah that's another solid suggestion

Oreyn_Bearclaw

You have definitely spotted a problem, and I like most of the suggestions. I do not agree that Deadly Cloak is better for mitigation than a shield. It is certainly a powerful tool, and it's the reason we can play stam in raids, but its not as good as a shield when you really need to mitigate damage. All mechanics that can essentially one shot you are telegraphed to some degree, and I believe a shield is better at handling them. Starfall in HRC comes to mind.

We often talk about the Magic/Stamina balance. It is not perfect, but it is better than its been in a long while. I think perhaps the better way to address balance would be to discuss ranged vs melee balance. The two classes with the most to complain about this patch are magic templar and magic dk because they must compete with stamina for a DPS spot.

I think this could be addressed in a few ways. First, increase the range of some of these skills. If buffed the range of both whip and embers to say 10 meters, it would allow DKs to more comfortably play behind the stamina characters. This could certainly cause some issues in PVP. Another way would be to increase the damage of the melee skills like Sweep and Whip. I would like to be able to see these classes be able to compete with stamina DPS as long as they are forced to play melee. Another thing you could do is figure out a way to really increase the cleave damage of these classes. That way, even if they couldnt quite compete with the single target of stamina, they would have a purpose. You could also do something similar by increasing the buffs/debuffs they could do either to the group or the boss. Damage is not the only way to make a class viable.

With DKs in particular, you also (as you stated) really need to address sustain. I liked it when we had lash for PVP and whip for PVE. I would like to see a damage buff to whip and a reduce costs, as long as Flame Lash retains more utility, I think it will still be preferable in PVP. Frankly most DK skills are too expensive, including their ultimates, which makes battle roar (their sustain passive) harder to rely upon.

TLDR: We need to figure out a way to make mDK and mTemplar competive with stamina, either through damage or utility. Other than that, the balance is definitely better than it has been in a while. We dont need drastic changes because we dont want to lose the progress we have made.

Hamburglarjones

Thank you for your suggestion, it is another point of view for sure

Norn

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

Many people argue that magicka have the luxury of a shield and therefore deserve to have less damage. However, for the last 3 months I have played a stamina Templar and I think any experienced player can agree that deadly cloak is just straight up better than shield providing you have competent healers.
Deadly cloak is a form of protection that is up 100% of the time and also does damage, combined with medium armour stamina are tankier than a user that has no shield and light armour. The problem with shield is it is a reactionary form of protection, it can’t be up 100% like deadly cloak unless you want to seriously gimp your dps output. Magicka users are more vulnerable to high damage mechanics which is generally the only thing that should kill you in an endgame run.

This is 100% true. People seem to think way too highly of shields while in reality it kills a slot, doesn't do any damage and it's only useful if you're expecting an incoming damage.

Yoltab1379

Magicka Templar in the same spot. Sweeps too expensive . The main spammable of DK ( whip ) Sorc ( Force pulse , still kinda viable in situations ) and Templar ( sweeps ) have been replaced with heavy attacks with a shock staff. Only variety comes in form of types of DOT they apply. The homogenization of the classes, both stam and magicka has gone too far

Norn

Yoltab1379 wrote: »

Magicka Templar in the same spot. Sweeps too expensive . The main spammable of DK ( whip ) Sorc ( Force pulse , still kinda viable in situations ) and Templar ( sweeps ) have been replaced with heavy attacks with a shock staff. Only variety comes in form of types of DOT they apply. The homogenization of the classes, both stam and magicka has gone too far

I agree, don't get me wrong but in all honesty Magplar is such a joke compared to Mag DK right now.

Kilandros

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

We need helping hands to affect Magika & Stamina, make it work off the highest value, will not affect tanks or stamina users, everyone benefits.

Mag DK tank needs to get stamina from helping hands in PVE and pretty much every mag DK needs the stam in PVP as well.

A Magdk gets pretty much nothing in pvp in terms of stamina return, it's not worth worrying about. it won't save you at all.

Tanks all have more stam than mag anyway so it's unaffected.

I believe you have it a bit backwards. Mag DK gets massive stam from helping hands now. If your stam is below 19,800, you got a huge buff with Morrowind patch and stam DK got nerf. It was made a flat value, so mag and stam DK both get same amount.

This is how mag DK is able to block in both PVP and PVE.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknight

• Earthen Heart
  • Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
  • Helping Hands: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff if your Maximum Stamina is below 19,800 and a reduction if it is above.

@IcyDeadPeople Um, what? In PvP mDK stamina sustain comes from Impreg plus sturdy traits, Battle Roar, and Tripots. I don't run a single Earthen Heart ability except Fossilize since Magicka sustain (in 5 Impreg 5 DR 2 Valkyn - 5 Light all sturdy) is currently more difficult than sustaining my stamina.

The Helping Hands passive used to be nice before the Major Mending on Igneous was gutted, but it simply isn't worth adding an expensive Magicka skill for the sake of occasionally getting 900 stamina--especially since Magicka management is currently more problematic for mDK.

EgoRush

Same goes for magicka Templar. Our class spammable forces us to be melee. But why take a magDK or magplar over a stamina dps? Zero benefit at all. And worse still many of your suggestions wouldn't help us at all. Now, if they could bring out swords that do elemental damage and I can DW my Templar and weave like a stamDK then I'm a happy man.

Haven't Elder Scrolls games had swords that do elemental damage before? I'm sure they have. I might be getting confused with other games though.

Sordidfairytale

Liofa wrote: »

I would say just rework Igneous Weapons . No one uses this skill , completely forgotten . Since one morph boosts damage , I think other morph can boost sustain .

I sometimes slot it on my tank, but I agree, this skill needs to be reworked. I'd suggest the vanilla skill =

Molten Weapons: Light attacks recharge 1% of your highest skill, Heavy attacks wind up 10% faster and Heavy Attack damage is increased by 10%

Igneous Weapons: adds Major Sorcery (Spell Damage) and Heavy Attack Damage is increased by 20%
Molten Armaments: converts to a stamina skill, adds Major Brutality (Weapon Damage) and Heavy Attack Damage is increased by 20%