Stop wearing NETCHES TOUCH

dpencil1 · September 2017

@Ir0nB34r
Being that you're still so new to dps, it's no wonder you're parsing so low. At this point you can't make any legit comparisons between builds. You will simply do better with whatever skills are easier for you to use. For example, Kena is the wrong choice on a pet build. Pets don't benefit from spell damage, only max magicka. You should be using a single monster piece that gives max magicka. Were you using the Familiar pet and keeping his Damage Pulse constantly active? Were you keeping Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms up all the time? Just do those three things and heavy attack a couple times in between and you'll have more than 12k dps.

Olupajmibanan · September 2017

If you know some better set for a non-pet sorc than netch, please tell me. I'll gladly put it.

Lusty · September 2017

The elitism is real.

Dymence · September 2017

@Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Vaoh · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

Dymence · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

I'm not trying to start anything, you're just being triggered now.

I raid a lot and sorc DPS actually has not dipped with HoTR. It's gone up. I don't know what you want me to test as it seems you are the one in need of testing

But I guess you're not interested in discussing it, so have a nice day.

CGPsaint · September 2017

Asardes wrote: »

Balsagna wrote: »

I like the part in this post where you are complaining because people are only doing 30K dps. I think you should stop pugging as a whole if that's what your expectations are.

Let's be honest, most PuGs barely reach that number as a group, and that's if you are lucky. And most likely you'll meet with sorcs trailing a Clannfear and spamming hard cast Crystal Blast and doing light attacks when they run out of juice for DPS, then proceed to curse the tank and healer for not tanking and healing enough when they get rekt from standing in the poop. I've seen plenty of 500 CP players doing that. So stop being "elitist" and accept that everyone plays as they want, even as they PuG with you to farm a set they most likely have no idea how to use effectively because they watched a youtube video from which they didn't understand anything.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one experiencing this on a regular basis. Some of the people that I get grouped with seriously blow my mind. I can't tell you how many Sorcs I encounter who just stand there hard casting Crystal Frags over and over again. It's gotten to the point where my buddy (tank) and I (DPS) will queue for *** and giggles, however we just assume that we're going to be 2-manning pledges.

Dantaria · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

I raid a lot and sorc DPS actually has not dipped with HoTR. It's gone up. I don't know what you want me to test as it seems you are the one in need of testing

It's just mathematically not possible.

Necropotence? Nerfed. Crit? Nerfed. Penetration? Nerfed.

The only way magsorc can win anything in this mess is cookie-cutter superb raid-team with 70%+ Alcosh uptime. But then - everyone wins in such setup.

Now do tell me, how much people do you think are allowed into such setup? The perfect "Nah, we got it, ditch your Lover and take Apprentice"? Damn straight - 0.0001% of the playerbase.

Sorry, but simple mortals, who play magsorc, just took a huge hit again. Join PUG raid and see how you fare without top-notch healer who spams Orbs like a god and top-notch gear composition. As a magsorc you'll end up in a deep [snip].

And then people have a choice: to take magsorc who now absolutely requires pet for competitive DPS or take magNB who fares at least just as well, but on his own without any risks of 1/5 of his DPS dying or getting stuck.

Leaderboards speak for themselves. If it wasn't for Liquid Lightning synergy and all the Offbalance, we wouldn't be needed at all

Nice fate for a class, which honestly s**ks in everything but DPS. 'You s**k as tank, s**k as healer and DPS... Duh. Keep dat Blockade and LL and let grown-ups do the work"

[Edited for profanity]

Dymence · September 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I raid a lot and sorc DPS actually has not dipped with HoTR. It's gone up. I don't know what you want me to test as it seems you are the one in need of testing

It's just mathematically not possible.

Necropotence? Nerfed. Crit? Nerfed. Penetration? Nerfed.

The only way magsorc can win anything in this mess is cookie-cutter superb raid-team with 70%+ Alcosh uptime. But then - everyone wins in such setup.

Now do tell me, how much people do you think are allowed into such setup? The perfect "Nah, we got it, ditch your Lover and take Apprentice"? Damn straight - 0.0001% of the playerbase.

Sorry, but simple mortals, who play magsorc, just took a huge hit again. Join PUG raid and see how you fare without top-notch healer who spams Orbs like a god and top-notch gear composition. As a magsorc you'll end up in a deep s**t.

And then people have a choice: to take magsorc who now absolutely requires pet for competitive DPS or take magNB who fares at least just as well, but on his own without any risks of 1/5 of his DPS dying or getting stuck.

Leaderboards speak for themselves. If it wasn't for Liquid Lightning synergy and all the Offbalance, we wouldn't be needed at all

Nice fate for a class, which honestly s**ks in everything but DPS. 'You s**k as tank, s**k as healer and DPS... Duh. Keep dat Blockade and LL and let grown-ups do the work"

Sorcs have had to use the pet since it was buffed because it outperforms non-pet by a large margin. This is nothing new.

I'm also not sure why you use an unoptimized pug raid as an example for balance?

The big reason a lot of people swapped off sorc is because they're sick of playing it when it was outperforming every other class. Now there's actually a choice in what you want to play and perform just as well.

Dantaria · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

I'm also not sure why you use an unoptimized pug raid as an example for balance?

The big reason a lot of people swapped off sorc is because they're sick of playing it when it was outperforming every other class. Now there's actually a choice in what you want to play and perform just as well.

Because unoptimized setup is what the majority of playerbase deal with every day.

Yes, magsorc was the best DPS and there was literally no reason to take anything but magsorc in raid. But now we have another extreme - there are very few reasons to actually take magsorc in raid and DPS even isn't one of them.

Sure, we can burst the 3kk dummy for nice parse. Actual raid? HA rotation, which gives lower DPS, or constant screams "ORBS ORBS" your healer will have to put up with.

Unoptimized raid? Why would they take "special snowflake" which requires constant support which their healer probably even can't provide, because he isn't elite?

Optimized raid? Okay, suppose we see only singular magsorcs on leaderboards because people are fed up with them. What are the reasons to come back on sorc again? LL for Alkosh? Yeah, great

Like, sorry, but magsorcs are somewhere in the buttom of DPS right now. People are just too blinded by past to see it. And yeah, we, magsorcs, are generally not happy with current balance. Because we are in "territory of extremes" again and now sorcs are the class which just s**ks in everything. Healing? No. Tanking? No. DPS both stam and mag? There are far better options. Yeah, great.

Asardes · September 2017

Poor little sorcs, who can't handle it alone, without healer support. I pity them. Just look at the vMA leaderboards for the class and see those pitiful 540K scores at the bottom [grabs napkins to wipe tears]

Dymence · September 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I'm also not sure why you use an unoptimized pug raid as an example for balance?

The big reason a lot of people swapped off sorc is because they're sick of playing it when it was outperforming every other class. Now there's actually a choice in what you want to play and perform just as well.

Because unoptimized setup is what the majority of playerbase deal with every day.

Yes, magsorc was the best DPS and there was literally no reason to take anything but magsorc in raid. But now we have another extreme - there are very few reasons to actually take magsorc in raid and DPS even isn't one of them.

Sure, we can burst the 3kk dummy for nice parse. Actual raid? HA rotation, which gives lower DPS, or constant screams "ORBS ORBS" your healer will have to put up with.

Unoptimized raid? Why would they take "special snowflake" which requires constant support which their healer probably even can't provide, because he isn't elite?

Optimized raid? Okay, suppose we see only singular magsorcs on leaderboards because people are fed up with them. What are the reasons to come back on sorc again? LL for Alkosh? Yeah, great

Like, sorry, but magsorcs are somewhere in the buttom of DPS right now. People are just too blinded by past to see it. And yeah, we, magsorcs, are generally not happy with current balance. Because we are in "territory of extremes" again and now sorcs are the class which just s**ks in everything. Healing? No. Tanking? No. DPS both stam and mag? There are far better options. Yeah, great.

Well perhaps I am just biased towards sorc since I have played it since launch when it was the dead worst class by far and have stuck with it. Still feel like you are massively overexaggerating about them being bottom DPS right now. Not from my experience.

I think the sorc class as it is is in a good spot. What needs work however is the destro and mages guild skill lines. Sorc was always heavily reliant on external skill lines for PVE, and as it stands force pulse, clench, impluse are all pretty ***. Mages guild rune isn't much better. A lot of potential there if they try reworking stuff like they did with stamina for all weapon skill lines and fighters guild way back.

starkerealm · September 2017

Nuuu, my Netch's Touch shoes are comfy.

Honestly, the conditional sets just aren't really working out the way the devs hoped. There's probably a neat concept buried in them, like sets that add additional elemental damage to your attacks, but as they are? Not so much.

The only one I can stick a maybe on is Automaton, and even that's iffy.

Vaoh · September 2017

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

I'm not trying to start anything, you're just being triggered now.

I raid a lot and sorc DPS actually has not dipped with HoTR. It's gone up. I don't know what you want me to test as it seems you are the one in need of testing

But I guess you're not interested in discussing it, so have a nice day.

Nope, it has gone down. The nerfs outweigh the buffs and Sorcs are essentially in a position of being "buff [snip]" now in optimized groups. Rip

But yeah whatevs. We shouldn't argue about this. Good day to you as well!

You seem to like Alcast and the guild Hodor enough to refuse feedback by others like myself, so I do recommend you at least check out Alcast's videos of HotR vHoF runs, specifically their 203K score run, to get a good idea for group composition and why things differ from Homestead and Morrowind.

[Edit for profanity]

Kuramas9tails · September 2017

The cool part about all of this is that you can complain on the forums and it won't change a thing.

Dantaria · September 2017

Asardes wrote: »

Poor little sorcs, who can't handle it alone, without healer support. I pity them. Just look at the vMA leaderboards for the class and see those pitiful 540K scores at the bottom [grabs napkins to wipe tears]

Yes, let's compare apples to oranges.

vMA means nothing when we talk about group play. vMA score runs are about burst, sustain issues are non-existent there. Sorcs indeed fare well on vMA thanks to pets - idiotic AI attacks (and even sometimes charge Taking Aim LOL ) them, not you. + Shields like any mag class. And Surge.

Good burst and pets and Surge are not what trials are about. Actually, erratic behavior of pets can easily make them a liability, so you need to constantly watch them. And when it comes to long fights? Yes. Magsorc can't handle those without healer unless HA rotation.

vMA? Sure, take your magsorc if you deal enough damage on him. Because if you don't and the battle drags on... Good luck. You might consider wearing Lich.

Dymence wrote: »

Sorc was always heavily reliant on external skill lines for PVE, and as it stands force pulse, clench, impluse are all pretty ***. Mages guild rune isn't much better. A lot of potential there if they try reworking stuff like they did with stamina for all weapon skill lines and fighters guild way back.

Yeah.

We shall see how it all will unfold. But for now I honestly do not see any good outcome for sorcs in trial scene

Vaoh · September 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I'm also not sure why you use an unoptimized pug raid as an example for balance?

The big reason a lot of people swapped off sorc is because they're sick of playing it when it was outperforming every other class. Now there's actually a choice in what you want to play and perform just as well.

Because unoptimized setup is what the majority of playerbase deal with every day.

Yes, magsorc was the best DPS and there was literally no reason to take anything but magsorc in raid. But now we have another extreme - there are very few reasons to actually take magsorc in raid and DPS even isn't one of them.

Sure, we can burst the 3kk dummy for nice parse. Actual raid? HA rotation, which gives lower DPS, or constant screams "ORBS ORBS" your healer will have to put up with.

Unoptimized raid? Why would they take "special snowflake" which requires constant support which their healer probably even can't provide, because he isn't elite?

Optimized raid? Okay, suppose we see only singular magsorcs on leaderboards because people are fed up with them. What are the reasons to come back on sorc again? LL for Alkosh? Yeah, great

Like, sorry, but magsorcs are somewhere in the buttom of DPS right now. People are just too blinded by past to see it. And yeah, we, magsorcs, are generally not happy with current balance. Because we are in "territory of extremes" again and now sorcs are the class which just s**ks in everything. Healing? No. Tanking? No. DPS both stam and mag? There are far better options. Yeah, great.

Eh, not bottom DPS. They still beat Magicka Templars and Magicka Wardens

Also Magicka DK is melee-based so they aren't really used anymore since Stamina DPS is so great rn - in a way Magicka Sorc sort of beats them since their DPS is ranged which allows raids to take one still for class-based passive group DPS buffs.

Speaking of Magicka Warden, I am sort of impressed how bad they have become from Morrowind to HotR. Their DPS dipped even more than other Magicka class specs from my experience which I wasn't sure was possible.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

It think at this point the best argument for magic Sorc over magic NB is that it's easier to play. Haha

Dymence · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

I'm not trying to start anything, you're just being triggered now.

I raid a lot and sorc DPS actually has not dipped with HoTR. It's gone up. I don't know what you want me to test as it seems you are the one in need of testing

But I guess you're not interested in discussing it, so have a nice day.

Nope, it has gone down. The nerfs outweigh the buffs and Sorcs are essentially in a position of being "buff b**ches" now in optimized groups. Rip

But yeah whatevs. We shouldn't argue about this. Good day to you as well!

You seem to like Alcast and the guild Hodor enough to refuse feedback by others like myself, so I do recommend you at least check out Alcast's videos of HotR vHoF runs, specifically their 203K score run, to get a good idea for group composition and why things differ from Homestead and Morrowind.

Oh I'm not really fanboying over Alcast or Hodor, but I acknowledge their player skill and that their group is solid.

Like I said, I raid more than enough myself to have a clear idea of the current state of DPS and how much it varies between classes, magicka and stamina.

And obviously things changed from Homestead to Morrowind. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that in terms of class vs class balance, not much changed with Morrowind to HoTR.

The main thing right now is stamina, stamina and more stamina. As much stamina as you can possibly get. Then it's kinda up to taste if you want sorcs or nbs as your ranged.

Vaoh · September 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

It think at this point the best argument for magic Sorc over magic NB is that it's easier to play. Haha

100% agree lol. That is definitely a big perk of Magicka Sorcerers. Easiest class to be proficient at or put out endgame DPS with for sure.

Also on consoles Magicka Sorc is going to be slightly better than on PC - easier rotations are better in 5-10 FPS trial boss fights like those in vHoF.

paulsimonps · September 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

It think at this point the best argument for magic Sorc over magic NB is that it's easier to play. Haha

Which is a very good comparison. Remember just a few months ago when NBs where basically useless in PvE? Now they are doing really well but they didn't make that change by nerfing Sorcs to the ground. I am gonna guess the magicka DPS ranking is what? NB/Sorc > DK > Templar > Warden? That being magward as worst.

Dymence · September 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

It think at this point the best argument for magic Sorc over magic NB is that it's easier to play. Haha

Which is a very good comparison. Remember just a few months ago when NBs where basically useless in PvE? Now they are doing really well but they didn't make that change by nerfing Sorcs to the ground. I am gonna guess the magicka DPS ranking is what? NB/Sorc > DK > Templar > Warden? That being magward as worst.

Pretty much spot on.

Actually scratch that. DK can outperform NB and Sorc, but that means giving up a melee spot where you could have a stam instead, which will again outperform DK. So it's kinda down to what kind of group you want to be at that point.

Dantaria · September 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Eh, not bottom DPS. They still beat Magicka Templars and Magicka Wardens Also Magicka DK is melee-based so they aren't really used anymore since Stamina DPS is so great rn - in a way Magicka Sorc sort of beats them since their DPS is ranged which allows raids to take one still for class-based passive group DPS buffs.

Yeah, but funny thing is: magDK actually outparses magsorc if there is Off-balance in suboptimal setup due to infinite Magicka thanks to Flame Lash. Maybe even in optimal setup.

MagDK is in sad place now not because of DPS per se, but because stamina beats magicka by miles and since melee spots are limited due to mechanics... RIP, magDK.

But in 4-men group if 1 DD is magDK and another is magsorc, they will be even. And if Healer also uses Blockade of Storms... Actually, magDK can outparse magsorc. MagDK from what I saw will outparse magsorc if uptime of Offbalance is good.

So in terms of pure numbers form what I saw we have:
1) Pretty much all stam;
2) MagNB/magDK;
3) Magsorc (hey, guys above, Offbalance for ye. Now I'll have go have a smoke);
4) Magplar;
totally-useless) magden.

So actually... yeah, somewhere in the bottom

Vaoh · September 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Eh, not bottom DPS. They still beat Magicka Templars and Magicka Wardens Also Magicka DK is melee-based so they aren't really used anymore since Stamina DPS is so great rn - in a way Magicka Sorc sort of beats them since their DPS is ranged which allows raids to take one still for class-based passive group DPS buffs.

Yeah, but funny thing is: magDK actually outparses magsorc if there is Off-balance in suboptimal setup due to infinite Magicka thanks to Flame Lash. Maybe even in optimal setup.

MagDK is in sad place now not because of DPS per se, but because stamina beats magicka by miles and since melee spots are limited due to mechanics... RIP, magDK.

But in 4-men group if 1 DD is magDK and another is magsorc, they will be even. And if Healer also uses Blockade of Storms... Actually, magDK can outparse magsorc. MagDK from what I saw will outparse magsorc if uptime of Offbalance is good.

So in terms of pure numbers form what I saw we have:
1) Pretty much all stam;
2) MagNB/magDK;
3) Magsorc (hey, guys above, Offbalance for ye. Now I'll have go have a smoke);
4) Magplar;
totally-useless) magden.

So actually... yeah, somewhere in the bottom

I pains me to see Mag Warden at the bottom..... I wanted to main my Magicka Warden. Just can't do that sort of thing when they are that bad.

Vaoh · September 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

It think at this point the best argument for magic Sorc over magic NB is that it's easier to play. Haha

Which is a very good comparison. Remember just a few months ago when NBs where basically useless in PvE? Now they are doing really well but they didn't make that change by nerfing Sorcs to the ground. I am gonna guess the magicka DPS ranking is what? NB/Sorc > DK > Templar > Warden? That being magward as worst.

Well they didn't nerf Sorcs into the ground, but they did nerf Sorcs a lot to get things to this point.

Sorcerers had a much higher Magicka Cost rotation than NBs, which didn't matter in Homestead because Necrotic Orb synergies were insanely strong for group sustain. You had unlimited Magicka so cost didn't matter. Sustain was so strong that I could sustain spamming Daedric Tomb pretty well in raids instead of Frags/Mages Wrath/Force Pulse.

With the reduced cost CP removed, Necrotic Orb changed, and Minor Magickasteal nerfed, Sorcerers took the biggest hit and now can only sustain by heavy attacking constantly. On top of this direct nerfs to Sorcerer damage were put in place: -10% Ilambris damage, Pet damage nerf, and much reduced Lightning Staff AoE damage as well as base damage all hit Magicka Sorcs in particular. Magicka NBs were given cost increases, but Grim Focus was buffed. They can still sustain very easily compared to Magicka Sorcs.

Essentially it is now a choice between choosing a Magicka NB's better single target, group support via offheals, and flexibility vs a Magicka Sorc's better AoE DPS. As long as one Mag Sorc is present you just don't need another is all, though it's definitely not true to say your team is gimped a lot by bringing more than one Magicka Sorc. Bringing a Magicka/Stamina Warden and to a much lesser extent Magicka Templar is the only way to truly hurt raid DPS. It's just better to bring a Magicka NB the same way it's better to bring a Stam DK instead of a Stamina Sorc/NB.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Vaoh

Let me present to you some parses of vHoF last boss which Alcast posted in another thread from last patch. There's a Mag Sorc parse, a Mag NB parse, a Stam DK parse and a Stamplar parse.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4419619/#Comment_4419619

It's from pre-HoTR though. Unless you mean to tell me that HoTR suddenly catapulted Mag NBs ahead, or that Hodor's Mag NB isn't good enough, I think you're far overexaggerating the 'gap' (if there is one) between Mag Sorcs and Mag NBs.

Stop trying to start something for no reason dude lol. You don't have to believe me. I honestly coud care less. Go play the game for yourself if you're in such disbelief over what I'm saying.

Considering the massive gear changes in HotR, it is pretty clear that a lot changed. I could go over it for an hour but will spare you the details since I'd assume you know what the current situation is gear-wise compared to previous patches. Mag Sorcs actually dipped in DPS. Not sure exactly if Mag NB stayed the same or dipped too, but the way everything evened out happened in a way that left Mag NB more on top than in Morrowind.

Again, go test for yourself. Since you want to use Hodor so much as a prime example, go look up their 203K vHoF score. Why is it that they would use 3 Mag NB and a single Mag Sorc when Mag Sorc is just as good....

Like I said, the gap is there and Mag NB is simply better to bring along for the increased single target DPS and group utility as long as 1 Magicka Sorcerer is present for their unique class-based group utility. Now, you still can bring four Mag Sorcs if you choose. The DPS loss will be there but the pure DPS difference as a whole (I already said this) won't be as large as if swapping out a Stam DK for something else. It's because NBs provide better DPS and offheals that make them more worth bringing.

It think at this point the best argument for magic Sorc over magic NB is that it's easier to play. Haha

Which is a very good comparison. Remember just a few months ago when NBs where basically useless in PvE? Now they are doing really well but they didn't make that change by nerfing Sorcs to the ground. I am gonna guess the magicka DPS ranking is what? NB/Sorc > DK > Templar > Warden? That being magward as worst.

@paulsimonps
I would say that your rankings are pretty spot on in terms of usefulness. A mDK certainly has the most single target, but they are melee and cant quite compete with their stamina counterparts, although I think its closer than the forums would have you believe. As you well know, raid compostion is not based on magic and stamina, it is based on melee and ranged. You typically need about 4 of each. Stam is winning the melee spots, and Sorc/NB are winning the ranged spots. I believe that NBs have a bit better single target, and Sorcs have a bit better AOE. I want to say that Hodors recent VHOF score had three NBs and one Sorc for range, but I am not positive.

Personally I like the idea of some classes being a bit easier to play, and some being a bit tougher with a higher DPS upside. It's the same on the stamina side of things. sDK is harder to survive than sSorc (rotation isnt all that much harder), and it has a higher upside. Makes sense to me. The irony is that a year ago, sorc was one of the toughest rotations. Very few players could really make them shine in a trial. The rotation was complicated and expensive. Now, I am pretty sure I could teach a gibbon to pull 30k on a sorc. Haha

The two classes that got the biggest shaft over the last two patches are mDK and mTemplar. Its not that they are that bad in isolation, its that they cant outparse a stamina player for a melee spot.