Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just fyi @Skander making a post (and it is a popular one) about how an ability is OP is a sure fire way to get everyone to run it.

I'm happy with it. The more the meta spreds, the shorter is to zenimax to fix that ultimate

Run eyes of mara backbar decisive + bloodspawn. That´s the spirit of never dying again.

I love how a skill that´s clearly as overperforming as restoult because every class + build tries to use it (even stam builds) is being alternate facted by stating we just don´t have good alternatives.
Yeah the whole game and all classes don´t have good alternative ultimates...
Or maybe when something is more desirable than any other ultimate it is performing above average?

I fall into the camp that I'd rather have one ultimate performing above average if all the other choices suck than having all the ultimates suck.

I do think the resto ultimate is a bit much but, I'm sorry, I do not have a problem killing 80% of players in cyrodiil who use the resto ultimate, even those allegedly OP sorcs. If they use the resto ultimate then I don't have to worry about dying to their offensive ultimate (good for me) and I simply heavy attack them for 5 seconds to get my resources back while the heal is going off. I have 30 seconds or so to defeat them before the next is available and if I cant do so in that time period, then it's not the resto ultimate keeping the player alive, its their build and their skill.

I dont even use the resto ultimate so it's not like i'm defending it for the sake of my templar build. My class ultimates are so unsuited for 1v1 gameplay that I am stuck using Dawnbreaker, which scales off the wrong stats and having to do so is more than dumb, it is utterly frustrating.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned that how defensive skills should cost more then offensive ones. I do think this is correct for regular skills, but I am not so sure that it the case for ultimates. Offensive ultimtes are especially valuable and dangerous because they are essential tools for killing good players quickly. I'd rather have an improperly scaling Dawnbreaker than an overperforming resto ultimate because at the end of the day, my goal is to kill an enemy player. Well, you play a sorcerer so it's easy for you to kill players without an ultimate, so maybe that's why you dont value offensive ultimates. I don't think 6 seconds of self-invulnerability is worth trading for the potential to land a killing blow. And again it's not like I'm just trying to protect my build. If i'm fighting some stamina nightbalde and they are going to off bar a resto staff and use Light's champion, by all means I welcome it because I'd much rather face that opponent than one who backbars a bow and uses Incap.

Templar has access to Soul Strike, do you want to tell me that this is a bad option on templar (especially when you can combine with Major Defile)?

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

ThulsaDoomDC wrote: »

My opinion is that it is fine the way it is currently. It is not the best heal in the game, and you can out DPS it if you focus someone down. It is a healing "ultimate" and not a skill. Are there ways to make it overperform? Of course, including the Warden being able to consistently spam it with their heroism, however it is not the ultimate itself that is overperforming. I use the major protection morph and it only heals one person at a time depending on the health and not the whole group. I've used it and had people still get killed, I've also used it and had the group survive because of it.

You won't kill a good player buffed by this ultimate.

You won't ever kill a group (exept you triple them in number) that cicle this ultimate.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I am running Dawnbreaker on my mag toons. Is that also imbalanced?

It would be if it were so strong that you had to slot a Melee weapon to use it but didn't care and did it anyway because it's better than what you give up. The Ultimate is broken AF lol.

You mean, how Vigor is free and I have to use a resto staff?

I mean the Ultimate is so strong you can give up rally, find brutality somewhere else, run the Ultimate and end up ahead in group play. And I bet you run annulment.

Yes, and if stamina players had to sacrifice their main heal, they wouldn't use it. But they can easily go without a bow or suppport sword.

You are missing the point, again. If stamina toons run it: it's becouse is viable or even better

YOU are not grasping it.
It's viable because stamina is not bound to a weapon for survival. Magicka is.
This makes your whole point moot. It's not much of a sacrifice if you don't actually have to give something up. If gapclosers only existed in the bow line or healing in S'n'B, then you had an argument.

P.S.:
Stamina even has the advantage of putting all CPs into healing. Magicka often has a significant shield investment, which is then missing from resto ult heal.

Magicka is not bound to a weapon to live, what are you saying doesn't make sense. Maybe sorcs. But that's since what. 4 patches. and it's not becouse they don't have any other viable option, it's becouse the meta is like this. Shield stak is for sorcs

Bow has a "range knockdown" that's in theme with the skill line.

Magicka doesn't mean shield. If you think so, my magicka templar is happy to greet you in duel.

Point still stands that not every stam player relies on a specific back bar weapon. I mentioned it for example earlier, I run bow backbar only for the speed buff after dodge rolls. Most of the times I don't even have a bow skill on my bars. Since major expedition is easily accessible outside of bow passives, I won't give up anything by changing bow to resto. So it definitely can be like Otto said, no set in stone investment costs. Running resto on back can be useful for more than just the ult, I sometimes run an resto for the resource return on my stam sorc, who can make good use of more mag.

Don't know what the mention of a that "ranged" knockback should accomplish. It's range is only 3m more than flurry.

E: since ultimates scale with highest resources/ dmg it doesn't even matter if you choose an ult from the "wrong resource". Especially in no cp. But if you follow your argument all the way you also need to demand nerfs for dual wielding or SnB using magicka builds that also tend to use dawnbreaker or the SnB ultimate. I mean, they use magicka why should they perform better with stamina weapons/ ultimates, right? Or negate dropping stam sorcs. I don't think your argument is solid. Usage alone is no meaningful indicator for it being overperforming. Not saying it's not too good but still.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Nah, he said "This makes your whole point moot. It's not much of a sacrifice if you don't actually have to give something up. If gapclosers only existed in the bow line or healing in S'n'B, then you had an argument."
Could also have switched that to "if gap closer only existed in the SnB line or healing in bow line", if it's better to understand. He basically said you give nothing up ON SOME BUILDS.

What passives do I waste when I equip resto over bow when I don't use any bow skills? [read: what do I sacrifice?]

Accuracy? Only if I run DoTs that tick during that short time I am on bow bar. Otherwise I don't make much use of it.
Ranger/ Hawk Eye/ Long Shot? No, since I don't use bow skill, would only benefit LA/HA.
Hasty Retreat? This. Only this. But major expedition is accessible through various other options. Quick Cloak, pots, Rapid maneuver, cowards gear, etc.

You could say I can return stamina through heavy attacks. True. But I could do that with 2h/ SnB/ DW... basically with whatever I run on front, too.

Now take a look what I gain from running resto besides the ultimate.

Essence Drain. My access to major mending. Although I can't use a resto HA when I'm under that kind of pressure that I would need major mending. The heal is negligible.
Restoration Expert. Really ice to have.
Cycle of life/ Absorb. That's great. More streaks, dark deals, surge, whatever. I can use plenty of magicka. Also resto HA is undodgable.


So I actually find more resto passives usefull than bow passives. Resto Expert, cycle of life - hasty retreat. Seems like a fair trade. So why shouldn't I consider a resto staff over a bow if I use neither for damage?

If I had space for a additional skill I could also have use for quick siphon. But if I had that space, I'd rather run a bow for poison injection, scatter shot, leathal arrow or Bombard. And that is the point. I would chose a bow over resto for the non-ulti active components. But since I only have barspace to slot an ultimate I have to make a choice.
Bow ultimate? DBoS is my dmg ulti.
Class ultimates? Situational.
Or light's champion? Best heal and great buffs.
So as it stands resto ult is far superior to bow ult. Right. But the condition is that I don't have enough space to make use of the better bow skills, so the trade of from resto over bow is non existant in this scenario.

I repeat myself, I too think that the resto ult is a tad too strong. But it's just wrong to say it's so much better that I sacrifice much in order to just use the ultimate. On many builds I wouldn't dare to slot a staff over a stamina weapon, even if the ulti is great. But there are also many builds that gain little to nothing from backbar weapons. These builds don't sacrifce anything. Therefore it's a fallacy to say every stam build sacrifices backbar weapon only for the ult.


I also think you underestimate the power of SnB+2h builds. Definitly got a hard time crushing those "unkillable, permablocking, high healing tank builds" who, strangely, don't use a resto staff.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I feel like you didn't even read what I wrote. Okay, I try again.

Resto damage is miserable - right. That's why I wrote " So why shouldn't I consider a resto staff over a bow if I use neither for damage?"

I also wrote about hasty retreat and accuracy. But I quote myself for your convenience:

"Accuracy? Only if I run DoTs that tick during that short time I am on bow bar. Otherwise I don't make much use of it.
Ranger/ Hawk Eye/ Long Shot? No, since I don't use bow skill, would only benefit LA/HA.
Hasty Retreat? This. Only this. But major expedition is accessible through various other options. Quick Cloak, pots, Rapid maneuver, cowards gear, etc."

How do I get out of combat? Bolt of Lightning, minor expedition from hurricane, major from other sources than bow - I repeat: quick cloak (if you run DW), rapid maneuver, cowards gear or immovable + speed pots. On a 2h/resto build obviously through pots.

Yes, the channel is kinda long and, I repeat myself yet again "Although I can't use a resto HA when I'm under that kind of pressure that I would need major mending." Good thing is, if you don't run around solo there will be windows where you actually can channel a heavy attack without big risk. Obivously, if I need stam, I either use dark deal, pots or HA from DW or 2h. Which also can't be blockcasted and can be blocked. And yes, the resto damage is week, therefore I wrote "I use neither for damage".

" And even for magicka toons, doing staves heavies is a waste of time, it's only used for recources and never for passives." of course it's about resources. But don't underestimate the Resto Expert passive - 15% stronger heals on low health targets"with a resto staff equipped". Assumed on a 2h/resto build you ran rally on front, you will have vigor on back/resto bar, therefore benefitting from the passive.

"Also, if your target is intelligent, he will block your heavy attack neglecting the little mag your get back."
Right, so will he avoid/ block any heavy attack from any weapon. Just to lessen/ avoid dmg and running you dry. Although a resto heavy is rather obvious, I'll give you that.

For absorb: sometimes you just have to block with no time to bar swap. Also shouldn't matter if you block on a 2h or a resto staff. It's just added resource return "for free". Don't assume someone extra blocks unnecessarily for that passive. Many people run infused or defending on backbar.

All these are just free perks. If you have no space but the ultimate, of course you use what is strong and fill holes in your build. If you got dmg from dawnbreaker, the need for the bow ult is small. So you either go with utility or defense. Point is, I loose nothing when I run a resto over a bow on my build.[/b] Resto ult is strong and it presents itself with no drawbacks on my build. But if i had room for more active skills, I'd take bow over resto any day.

Also, when it is soooooo op, why is not everybody using it? Maybe bc of the drawbacks that others suffer on their builds? Therefor it cant be out of galaxy good, so good that it offsets these sacrifices on their builds. See?

Finally, would you say DW/ SnB is too strong because magicka builds use them?

ManDraKE wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It a bad option Vs. good players that can beat me. It's (too) effective Vs. medium armor users that can't LOS, but that's all as it won't kill anyone else who knows what they are doing. A mag player or a block build easily counters Soul Assault, which, even if not interruptible, still leaves the caster defenseless to attack from other players.

Not really. If used properly, SA can destroy any medium armor player, no matter how good it is, plenty of ways of use SA properly and put a medium armor build in a no-escape situation (especially in non-cp).
I agree with @Derra, you can kill good players with it. And the "caster being defenseless" is irrelevant when you have a group around you, even if you are defenseless, i can't go offensive while you are casting soul asasult, not only because i need to go full defensive/kite to survive the SA, but because if i run towards the caster i get melted by the rest of the group.

SA is a medium armor killer and a zerg empowering tool, the perfect ultimate to Xv1 people.

Joy division wrote:

My class ultimates are so unsuited for 1v1 gameplay that I am stuck using Dawnbreaker...

Skander wrote: »

Let's stick to Resto Ultimate guys. Open another topic for SA if you want

Valencer wrote: »

TTK is too low? What universe are some of you guys living in?

Yeah, a 0 CP 0 crit resist newbie who is clueless about game mechanics will probably get wrecked in seconds (and the game STILL doesnt teach new players anything) but a fully geared / specced player who is actually somewhat (and only somewhat, don't mistake this for actually being a long-time highly experienced player) aware of game mechanics will never die in a reasonable amount of time. *** hell, a heavy armour player can just keep his buffs and heals up and he will never die, combined with blocking a bit when health starts getting low.

That is without adding abilities like resto and 1h+s ulti on top of that.

I wonder how much bigger the unstoppable tank pug zergs in Vivec have to get before people consider TTK "high enough".

Waffennacht wrote: »

The campaign is endless, after resto and SnB and trees get nerfed, after SA, after shields, after destro, after defile, what's next? Probably back to Riposte and Rend (lmfao) maybe DboS, oh wait Fury and Legion and HA

But don't [snip] dare touch Stam or medium... Well not until the above mentioned are nerfed and all the players re roll back to Stam.

Eventually we'll get buff threads because the current L2P group levels up and learns and their younger get pwned and come to the forums having them be nerfed.

I would take these nerf threads seriously if they didn't change as often as the FoTM.

olsborg wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

TTK is too low? What universe are some of you guys living in?

Yeah, a 0 CP 0 crit resist newbie who is clueless about game mechanics will probably get wrecked in seconds (and the game STILL doesnt teach new players anything) but a fully geared / specced player who is actually somewhat (and only somewhat, don't mistake this for actually being a long-time highly experienced player) aware of game mechanics will never die in a reasonable amount of time. *** hell, a heavy armour player can just keep his buffs and heals up and he will never die, combined with blocking a bit when health starts getting low.

That is without adding abilities like resto and 1h+s ulti on top of that.

I wonder how much bigger the unstoppable tank pug zergs in Vivec have to get before people consider TTK "high enough".

Id like to emphasize on the fact that restoration ulti is overperforming and then some at that cost, but so is sword and board ulti.