Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra defensive ults should be cheaper than offensive ults. Cheaper defensive ults are counters to Offensive ones. If they become more expensive than offensive ults, the TTk decreases and EoTs etc have even less counter play.

You should be able to Panacea against EotS reliably and consistently

No game i´ve ever played had cheaper defense than offense (and eso didn´t either up until resto 1hshield and wardenult got introduced). Cooldown based games had longer defensive CDs than offensive ones.
Why?
Prefering offense over defense leads to people dying - which happens to be the desired outcome of pvp encounters.

I completely disagree, the fact people have such a short TTK is the LEADING complaint of this game, and is almost always the reason for a nerf. FAR more offensive oriented abilities and sets have been nerfed over defensive ones.

Most games have more costly defensive abilities because their TTK is long already, in this game TTK is WAY shorter than any other. TTK needs to be increased in this game not shortened.

This games problem is selfhealing on all classes.
TTK is only short if you don´t know how to play the game/your class.

This game has probably the highest ttk out of all games i´ve played personally when people of atleast mediocre skill face each other.
The ones i played for more than leveling and dipping into pvp for a few weeks:
AoC? 5 to 30s.
Warhammer? 10 to 30s.
DAoC? 2 to 30s (and you could nuke a fulltank in 4).
Swtor? 5s to 30s.
Rift? 10 to 20s.
Aion? 5 to 30s.
Teso? literally 1s (perceived bc executed from invisibility) to never ending.

But then how realistic are those 1s kills and what classes are capable? Only stamina from sneak really.
The biggest problem in terms of ttk in eso is sneak. Remove the abilitie from players to frontload burst from invisibility and eso will have the highest ttk out of all games i´ve played.

Note that in eso the difference is: All other games had healthbars that gradually moved from 100% to 0% when there was no healer involved.
In eso we have healthbars that move in both directions for all roles.
Getting killed fast by an enemy you could see and react to means you made more than one mistake in eso (excepft for getting soulassaulted on a medium armor build that is not a nb).

The state when the game had the most vibrant pvp (disregarding the first 3 months after launch) was patch 1.6 (imo - any magDK and some templars will disagree). Why was that?
Because people could go out and even if they died a lot more than they do now they could expect to score kills themselves (which they can´t now).
It was the patch that 1h+shield as a skillline and tanking in general were the least vaible (out of all of esos patchhistory).

Tanky players lead to bring more people mentality on any scale until you reach ~12+ bc at that point you can build a destro train.

I guess your experience is that of PC games. PC games have (from what I've seen) been extremely fast. Compared to console games.

Sneak gank builds - very low TTk
Proc sets - very low TTK
Right now Sorc is considered "OP" not because of long TTK...

Anyway, it remains a fact that the majority of nerfs in this game have a direct relationship with short TTK

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra defensive ults should be cheaper than offensive ults. Cheaper defensive ults are counters to Offensive ones. If they become more expensive than offensive ults, the TTk decreases and EoTs etc have even less counter play.

You should be able to Panacea against EotS reliably and consistently

No game i´ve ever played had cheaper defense than offense (and eso didn´t either up until resto 1hshield and wardenult got introduced). Cooldown based games had longer defensive CDs than offensive ones.
Why?
Prefering offense over defense leads to people dying - which happens to be the desired outcome of pvp encounters.

I completely disagree, the fact people have such a short TTK is the LEADING complaint of this game, and is almost always the reason for a nerf. FAR more offensive oriented abilities and sets have been nerfed over defensive ones.

Most games have more costly defensive abilities because their TTK is long already, in this game TTK is WAY shorter than any other. TTK needs to be increased in this game not shortened.

What means TTK? Pls dont use this shorter example of a word, when i need to ask what it mean

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra defensive ults should be cheaper than offensive ults. Cheaper defensive ults are counters to Offensive ones. If they become more expensive than offensive ults, the TTk decreases and EoTs etc have even less counter play.

You should be able to Panacea against EotS reliably and consistently

No game i´ve ever played had cheaper defense than offense (and eso didn´t either up until resto 1hshield and wardenult got introduced). Cooldown based games had longer defensive CDs than offensive ones.
Why?
Prefering offense over defense leads to people dying - which happens to be the desired outcome of pvp encounters.

I completely disagree, the fact people have such a short TTK is the LEADING complaint of this game, and is almost always the reason for a nerf. FAR more offensive oriented abilities and sets have been nerfed over defensive ones.

Most games have more costly defensive abilities because their TTK is long already, in this game TTK is WAY shorter than any other. TTK needs to be increased in this game not shortened.

This games problem is selfhealing on all classes.
TTK is only short if you don´t know how to play the game/your class.

This game has probably the highest ttk out of all games i´ve played personally when people of atleast mediocre skill face each other.
The ones i played for more than leveling and dipping into pvp for a few weeks:
AoC? 5 to 30s.
Warhammer? 10 to 30s.
DAoC? 2 to 30s (and you could nuke a fulltank in 4).
Swtor? 5s to 30s.
Rift? 10 to 20s.
Aion? 5 to 30s.
Teso? literally 1s (perceived bc executed from invisibility) to never ending.

But then how realistic are those 1s kills and what classes are capable? Only stamina from sneak really.
The biggest problem in terms of ttk in eso is sneak. Remove the abilitie from players to frontload burst from invisibility and eso will have the highest ttk out of all games i´ve played.

Note that in eso the difference is: All other games had healthbars that gradually moved from 100% to 0% when there was no healer involved.
In eso we have healthbars that move in both directions for all roles.
Getting killed fast by an enemy you could see and react to means you made more than one mistake in eso (excepft for getting soulassaulted on a medium armor build that is not a nb).

The state when the game had the most vibrant pvp (disregarding the first 3 months after launch) was patch 1.6 (imo - any magDK and some templars will disagree). Why was that?
Because people could go out and even if they died a lot more than they do now they could expect to score kills themselves (which they can´t now).
It was the patch that 1h+shield as a skillline and tanking in general were the least vaible (out of all of esos patchhistory).

Tanky players lead to bring more people mentality on any scale until you reach ~12+ bc at that point you can build a destro train.

I guess your experience is that of PC games. PC games have (from what I've seen) been extremely fast. Compared to console games.

Sneak gank builds - very low TTk
Proc sets - very low TTK
Right now Sorc is considered "OP" not because of long TTK...

Anyway, it remains a fact that the majority of nerfs in this game have a direct relationship with short TTK

Do you notice a parallel between proccsets and sneak ganks? It´s both untelegraphed burst. Though proccsets are way less of an issue this patch.

Sorc offense is about the weakest out of all classes (no pets involved) when figuring all available gear combos. Their offensive is considered OP only by bad players (and you can´t fix bad on the devs side).
The majority of nerfs have a direct correlation to untelegraphed burst leading to short ttk that allows for no counterplay. I think there is a reason why sorc offense never really got nerfed (it mostly got buffed coming to think of it) over the course of the whole game (and that´s bc it´s the complete opposite of sneak ganks or proccsets).

I think sorc is only perceived as op due to a mix of harness sustain, bad people not understand how sorc burst works (literally the whole class revolves around it - there is no alternative) and streak still being the main offender.
If harness stacking were to be removed the class would loose it´s potential for ~70% of all sorcs running around and if streak were to be nerfed again it would possibly be in the same spot as magDK in 1.6.

Most 5p offensive set nerfs were pve related.

Frontloaded untelegraphed burst = bad burst
Backloaded telegraphed burst = good burst

Magicka sorcs can bring there burst nearly allways without been interupted from any pressure because of shieldstacking. Now other classes have access to do that too with 1H+S ult or restoult. In relation this was no nerf for sorcs but a buff for all other. Maybe this ults are a bit strong (restoult maybe more then the reflecting ult), but only because many guys never learned to play wisely. When you allways played very offensiv, because you never got much pressure, that you need to spam your healbutton or try to survive on any way, then you will surely fail, when you start your finish rotation and your opponent do more pressure to you in same time. DKs and Templar learned nothing other then defensive gameplay.. First time i learned some offensiv rotations was after 1 1/2 years. Why is that?
Because for example in duells i needed to play 80% defensive. My damagerotations i allways needed to interupt because of to much pressure. Sorcs and for example nightblades played allways 80% of time offensiv. Now they are angry about this 2 very defensive ultimates. I give a tip: Dont use just directdamage, when the opponent activate his reflectult. Just stay defensiv for this few seconds. Same for the restoult, save your skills, ressources and stay defensiv. When its over start will full pressure.
Its not very difficult... And yes its more tactically fighting then ever before in Teso.

Nerf the healingeffect then and its all fine.. maybe for 50% of the effect now, that nobody just need to activate it for staying alive next 6 seconds. Thats the nerf i could accept. But like i know zos they will completly destroy it because of this or other threads.. After that nobody will use it again..

Derra wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra defensive ults should be cheaper than offensive ults. Cheaper defensive ults are counters to Offensive ones. If they become more expensive than offensive ults, the TTk decreases and EoTs etc have even less counter play.

You should be able to Panacea against EotS reliably and consistently

No game i´ve ever played had cheaper defense than offense (and eso didn´t either up until resto 1hshield and wardenult got introduced). Cooldown based games had longer defensive CDs than offensive ones.
Why?
Prefering offense over defense leads to people dying - which happens to be the desired outcome of pvp encounters.

I completely disagree, the fact people have such a short TTK is the LEADING complaint of this game, and is almost always the reason for a nerf. FAR more offensive oriented abilities and sets have been nerfed over defensive ones.

Most games have more costly defensive abilities because their TTK is long already, in this game TTK is WAY shorter than any other. TTK needs to be increased in this game not shortened.

What means TTK? Pls dont use this shorter example of a word, when i need to ask what it mean

time to kill

Ty

Skander wrote: »

The more i play in cyrodill, the more groups with all resto ulti pop up. It's a pandemic. We need the cure

Just a simple fact. Look for the templar who activate the templarhealult... they are target nr.1 for the next 10sec. The ult brights like the sun, nobody need to mark this easy target to kill him. He cant do anything while channel this idiotic skill.. i dont need to explain, that static skills like that arent a good option.. so many do like i do, i go with resto ult for solohealing and group healing. The templarhealingult is much more effective, but only in a coordinated group. When i dont want to marked as healer, i choose the worse grouphealingoption, but can survive more in reason of that.

We have so much skills, which are not useful, but we dont have other good options. Reworking all of this skills would bring diversity together with balancing.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just fyi @Skander making a post (and it is a popular one) about how an ability is OP is a sure fire way to get everyone to run it.

I'm happy with it. The more the meta spreds, the shorter is to zenimax to fix that ultimate

Skander wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just fyi @Skander making a post (and it is a popular one) about how an ability is OP is a sure fire way to get everyone to run it.

I'm happy with it. The more the meta spreds, the shorter is to zenimax to fix that ultimate

Run eyes of mara backbar decisive + bloodspawn. That´s the spirit of never dying again.

I love how a skill that´s clearly as overperforming as restoult because every class + build tries to use it (even stam builds) is being alternate facted by stating we just don´t have good alternatives.
Yeah the whole game and all classes don´t have good alternative ultimates...
Or maybe when something is more desirable than any other ultimate it is performing above average?

Just real quick, just one of my Sept 2016 posts

Waffennacht wrote: »

gdefter wrote: »

Well the ult that i am most disappointed about is the resto one.It is too expensive,250 ult pointa,and for that amount it does not provide nearly as much as expected personally.It is essentially 3 abilities in one ,along with a h.o.t. for one person.From my perspective,an experienced healer with decent animation cancelling can achieve that,if not better.And i also want to point out that all the animations are a little...dull?I dont know,the biggest letdown was the bow ult,i was expecting something like firing the arrows like shooting an SMG lol,but that s just me.

Lmao smg arrows! Im pretty sure it's so we don't lag out any worse.

Resto staff ult - im thinkin this is for a non healer. Im lookin at, let's say a sorc cuz why not? That's a pretty big heal and duration- allowing for some nice dps. Or a DK, hit it, switch bars, and go all out offense - just a thought.

In the same thread I mentioned how 2H isn't much to worry about, and SnB and resto were the ults I was looking at

Derra wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just fyi @Skander making a post (and it is a popular one) about how an ability is OP is a sure fire way to get everyone to run it.

I'm happy with it. The more the meta spreds, the shorter is to zenimax to fix that ultimate

Run eyes of mara backbar decisive + bloodspawn. That´s the spirit of never dying again.

I love how a skill that´s clearly as overperforming as restoult because every class + build tries to use it (even stam builds) is being alternate facted by stating we just don´t have good alternatives.
Yeah the whole game and all classes don´t have good alternative ultimates...
Or maybe when something is more desirable than any other ultimate it is performing above average?

I fall into the camp that I'd rather have one ultimate performing above average if all the other choices suck than having all the ultimates suck.

I do think the resto ultimate is a bit much but, I'm sorry, I do not have a problem killing 80% of players in cyrodiil who use the resto ultimate, even those allegedly OP sorcs. If they use the resto ultimate then I don't have to worry about dying to their offensive ultimate (good for me) and I simply heavy attack them for 5 seconds to get my resources back while the heal is going off. I have 30 seconds or so to defeat them before the next is available and if I cant do so in that time period, then it's not the resto ultimate keeping the player alive, its their build and their skill.

I dont even use the resto ultimate so it's not like i'm defending it for the sake of my templar build. My class ultimates are so unsuited for 1v1 gameplay that I am stuck using Dawnbreaker, which scales off the wrong stats and having to do so is more than dumb, it is utterly frustrating.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned that how defensive skills should cost more then offensive ones. I do think this is correct for regular skills, but I am not so sure that it the case for ultimates. Offensive ultimtes are especially valuable and dangerous because they are essential tools for killing good players quickly. I'd rather have an improperly scaling Dawnbreaker than an overperforming resto ultimate because at the end of the day, my goal is to kill an enemy player. Well, you play a sorcerer so it's easy for you to kill players without an ultimate, so maybe that's why you dont value offensive ultimates. I don't think 6 seconds of self-invulnerability is worth trading for the potential to land a killing blow. And again it's not like I'm just trying to protect my build. If i'm fighting some stamina nightbalde and they are going to off bar a resto staff and use Light's champion, by all means I welcome it because I'd much rather face that opponent than one who backbars a bow and uses Incap.

Derra wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Because for example in duells i needed to play 80% defensive. My damagerotations i allways needed to interupt because of to much pressure. Sorcs and for example nightblades played allways 80% of time offensiv. Now they are angry about this 2 very defensive ultimates. I give a tip: Dont use just directdamage, when the opponent activate his reflectult. Just stay defensiv for this few seconds. Same for the restoult, save your skills, ressources and stay defensiv. When its over start will full pressure.
Its not very difficult... And yes its more tactically fighting then ever before in Teso.

Every time i see people channeling uninterruptable heavyattacks in duels i just think about how much the game has deteriorated over time. The game lost it´s most interesting tactical component the moment heavyattacks got uninterruptable to provide players with infinite resources.

To be fair, this mechanic has the proper counter on blocking the last tick of it. Pushing clear and distinct goals for light attacks, dps, and heavies, sustain and some burst, was a great move from zos.

But about the resto ult, think would be a good idea to reduce to 2 seconds of major protection per tick. 5 is far too much, and it even missguides people, since it has no visual cue, into thinking that it's over, and you should unload your burst, when enemy is actually still heavily buffed.

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Because for example in duells i needed to play 80% defensive. My damagerotations i allways needed to interupt because of to much pressure. Sorcs and for example nightblades played allways 80% of time offensiv. Now they are angry about this 2 very defensive ultimates. I give a tip: Dont use just directdamage, when the opponent activate his reflectult. Just stay defensiv for this few seconds. Same for the restoult, save your skills, ressources and stay defensiv. When its over start will full pressure.
Its not very difficult... And yes its more tactically fighting then ever before in Teso.

Every time i see people channeling uninterruptable heavyattacks in duels i just think about how much the game has deteriorated over time. The game lost it´s most interesting tactical component the moment heavyattacks got uninterruptable to provide players with infinite resources.

To be fair, this mechanic has the proper counter on blocking the last tick of it. Pushing clear and distinct goals for light attacks, dps, and heavies, sustain and some burst, was a great move from zos.

But about the resto ult, think would be a good idea to reduce to 2 seconds of major protection per tick. 5 is far too much, and it even missguides people, since it has no visual cue, into thinking that it's over, and you should unload your burst, when enemy is actually still heavily buffed.

There is a visual clue, but is very light

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra defensive ults should be cheaper than offensive ults. Cheaper defensive ults are counters to Offensive ones. If they become more expensive than offensive ults, the TTk decreases and EoTs etc have even less counter play.

You should be able to Panacea against EotS reliably and consistently

No game i´ve ever played had cheaper defense than offense (and eso didn´t either up until resto 1hshield and wardenult got introduced). Cooldown based games had longer defensive CDs than offensive ones.
Why?
Prefering offense over defense leads to people dying - which happens to be the desired outcome of pvp encounters.

I completely disagree, the fact people have such a short TTK is the LEADING complaint of this game, and is almost always the reason for a nerf. FAR more offensive oriented abilities and sets have been nerfed over defensive ones.

Most games have more costly defensive abilities because their TTK is long already, in this game TTK is WAY shorter than any other. TTK needs to be increased in this game not shortened.

Then don't create an ultimate that dramatically increases survivability (and offense) with virtually no offensive penalties.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Derra defensive ults should be cheaper than offensive ults. Cheaper defensive ults are counters to Offensive ones. If they become more expensive than offensive ults, the TTk decreases and EoTs etc have even less counter play.

You should be able to Panacea against EotS reliably and consistently

No game i´ve ever played had cheaper defense than offense (and eso didn´t either up until resto 1hshield and wardenult got introduced). Cooldown based games had longer defensive CDs than offensive ones.
Why?
Prefering offense over defense leads to people dying - which happens to be the desired outcome of pvp encounters.

I completely disagree, the fact people have such a short TTK is the LEADING complaint of this game, and is almost always the reason for a nerf. FAR more offensive oriented abilities and sets have been nerfed over defensive ones.

Most games have more costly defensive abilities because their TTK is long already, in this game TTK is WAY shorter than any other. TTK needs to be increased in this game not shortened.

Then by that logic you, and everyone else, should be screaming for nerfs to Destro ult, Soul Assault, curse, endless fury, skoria, cliff racer, PoTL, Jabs, and all the other zero counter play abilities I can't think of right now. But I don't see that happening. When people say TTK needs to be increased what they really mean is TTKM. Time To Kill Me.

TTK is too low? What universe are some of you guys living in?

Yeah, a 0 CP 0 crit resist newbie who is clueless about game mechanics will probably get wrecked in seconds (and the game STILL doesnt teach new players anything) but a fully geared / specced player who is actually somewhat (and only somewhat, don't mistake this for actually being a long-time highly experienced player) aware of game mechanics will never die in a reasonable amount of time. *** hell, a heavy armour player can just keep his buffs and heals up and he will never die, combined with blocking a bit when health starts getting low.

That is without adding abilities like resto and 1h+s ulti on top of that.

I wonder how much bigger the unstoppable tank pug zergs in Vivec have to get before people consider TTK "high enough".