Spell Penetration Examined (a PvE DPS perspective)

paulsimonps · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

Sorry, I guess I missed that info. I thought that all mobs in vMA were 18200 except a couple bosses that were 18500. Can you link the patch note or other source that you got your data from?

If I am not mistaken there was no patch for VMA, which is a reason why it is this way and not the standard way
Back then, when the resistances were standardised (and VMA left out) someone tested it and I havent seen mention of anything changing since (link)

@dpencil1

Like Sodan said, when everything was changed to be standardized vMA was never changed, some mobs have resistance around 18k and others 9k but there are those all over too. And to add something new to what others have already said, the mobs in vMA do not always have the same Physical resistance as they do Spell resistance. So your damage can vary widely.

Lorajet · August 2017

@dpencil1 Was particularly interested in the gaining spell penetration explanation. On a lower character with only blue/purple gear, (no gold) would the basics of the argument still apply?

dpencil1 · August 2017

@Lorajet
Sure. Of course, if you're lower level, you're probably doing mainly Overland content, so wearing 5 light armor and using the Lover stone would be all the penetration you need.

dpencil1 · August 2017

@SodanTok @paulsimonps
So I went onto the PTS, entered the first arena with 100 + 4884 + 4916 = 9180 spell penetration and started hitting mobs with Crystal Fragments both with and without Major Breach applied. What I found was that most of the pre-boss mobs (dremora, daederoth, bone knight) had around 12k resistance. Scamps and Clannfears seemed to have a little less, but more than 9180. The first boss had the full 18.2k resistance.

So...at least in that first round, things seem to be different than back when the linked post was made. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to do a complete test of the arena again.

paulsimonps · August 2017

dpencil1 wrote: »

@SodanTok @paulsimonps
So I went onto the PTS, entered the first arena with 100 + 4884 + 4916 = 9180 spell penetration and started hitting mobs with Crystal Fragments both with and without Major Breach applied. What I found was that most of the pre-boss mobs (dremora, daederoth, bone knight) had around 12k resistance. Scamps and Clannfears seemed to have a little less, but more than 9180. The first boss had the full 18.2k resistance.

So...at least in that first round, things seem to be different than back when the linked post was made. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to do a complete test of the arena again.

I have never been in there myself to do it that much, mob for mob, nor even boss for boss. What I am thinking is that the person in the linked thread did not check both values, like I said they sometimes do not have the same Physical resistance as spell resistance, so if you only checked one of them when you did your testing you are gonna get flawed results. Not sure if that is the case of if it was simply changed since then but like I said, its mob for mob in there. But I do recommend quite high penetration in most scenarios myself.

dpencil1 · August 2017

I did a quick test on one of the first dremora caster with the 2-handed Ulti. It gave me a 18.2k resistance buff, so it looks like 12k Mag / 18.2k Phys resistance on the bigger mobs of the first arena.

paulsimonps · August 2017

dpencil1 wrote: »

I did a quick test on one of the first dremora caster with the 2-handed Ulti. It gave me a 18.2k resistance buff, so it looks like 12k Mag / 18.2k Phys resistance on the bigger mobs of the first arena.

yea I remember back last year I got like 18k spell resistance and 9k physical resistance on a staff wielding dremora on first arena.

dpencil1 · August 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno
I don't suppose we could get you to just tell us what the various resistance values for the mobs in vMA are and why it remains the one place excluded from the normalization of resistances game-wide?

Beardimus · August 2017

Nice work @dpencil1

SodanTok · August 2017

dpencil1 wrote: »

So I went onto the PTS, entered the first arena with 100 + 4884 + 4916 = 9180 spell penetration and started hitting mobs with Crystal Fragments both with and without Major Breach applied. What I found was that most of the pre-boss mobs (dremora, daederoth, bone knight) had around 12k resistance. Scamps and Clannfears seemed to have a little less, but more than 9180. The first boss had the full 18.2k resistance.

So...at least in that first round, things seem to be different than back when the linked post was made. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to do a complete test of the arena again.

Just went there to at least test the first boss and random mobs with 2H ulti.

Random mob (I think dremora archer) had 12k spell and 18k phys
Boss had 18k spell and 9k phys
Melee dremora that boss spawned had 12k spell and 12k phys

So, basically what the old thread said is probably still right but only for physical resistance. All enemies there have probably still 9/12/18k resistance based on the type, but if nobody really tested spell resistance there is small chance that all bosses have (for some reason) 18k or maybe all of them bar first have 9k who knows

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Thanks for this. I have been doing something similar on the stam side of things, trying to figure out what to wear in certain scenarios. The biggest question I had was regarding diminished returns as you get close to the pen cap, and this clears it up nicely.

I would love to see the same thing for stam, as it is argubly more relevant now that raids are back to 50/50 magic/stam and since stam users are more likely going to coordinate sets than magic.

Our group has found that you can keep Sunder and NM up nearly 100% (sunder is about 99 and NM is about 96). PotL seems to be in the low to mid 80s, and alkosh, never seems to be much over about 60. It is certainly powerful, but I would like to get away from Alkosh as a 60% uptime is hard to rely on.

Thanks for the math as always.

I'd also rather go for an infused torugs crusher, a lot more controllable and reliable as a debuff than alkosh...

I think I am coming around to that as well. Alkosh is strong, but I am not sure it makes sense to build for group penetration with any uptime south of about 80%. You would also free at least one DPS to run another set. As long as you have infused torugs, PotL, sunder, NM, you should be able to get to the cap pretty easy with CP and it will be much more consistent. With alksoh its like you spend half the time at the cap and half the time 3k below it.

Edit: well, I am an idiot. I was looking at combat metrics and didn't realize the alkosh debuff was called linebreaker. The uptime is better than I thought. Changes the math a bit.

dpencil1 · August 2017

vMA Resistance Analysis:

Arena 1 BOSS: 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag

Scamp: 18.2k phys; 18.2k mag
Flesh Atro: 18.2k phys, 12.1k mag
Clannfear: 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Seducer Knight: 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Daederoth: 12.1k phys, 12.1k mag
Bone Collosus: 12.1k phys, 12.1k mag
BOSS Adds: 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Seducer Darkbow: 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag
Seducer Darkfire: 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag

In the 2nd Arena couple of the mobs, such as the Dwermer Spiders only have 9.1k mag resist, but all other mobs in vMA have at least 12.1k mag resist.

The general premise seems to be that mobs that use magicka skills (and sometimes magical beings like Lamia Ghosts in Arena 3 or Lurchers in Arena 6, but not Fire Elementals or Lurcher Bosses in Arena 9) are more resistant to magicka, and vice versa with physical, while those that have a mix of both are in the middle. Since most mobs have 12.1k mag resist, speccing for that and then using Ele Drain on casters makes the most sense as a Magicka character. A similar (opposite) strategy could be taken for Stamina characters.

Assuming the other bosses have the same Phys Resist as the linked post...(someone else can double check if they want)

Arena 2 BOSS 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 3 BOSS 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 4 BOSS 18.2k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 5 BOSS 12.1k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 6 BOSS 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag -> (33.5k mag when enraged)
Arena 7 BOSS 18.2k phys; 12.1k mag
Arena 8 BOSS 18.2k phys; 0 mag (14.4% extra mag damage done during disorient phase, if this was a debuff on top of resistances then perhaps applying Ele Drain would make the damage increase higher, it's worth testing) Note: The 2-hand ult should be tested again during the disorient phase. My guess is it was originally tested when the boss was shielded.
Arena 9 BOSS 9.1k phys; 18.2k mag

dpencil1 · August 2017

OP updated to include vMA analysis.

Inarre · August 2017

@dpencil1 Thank you! I just finished my first run of vMA yesterday and did so using a build with high penetration in mind. While i wish I saw this before so I could fine tune my build better, I really appreciate having this information for my second run

Subversus · August 2017

So that little *** from stage 4 not only is the absolute biggest PITA to deal with as melee but he also has like twice the physical resists compared to mag resists... god I love vMA, such a great arena!!!!!!!

paulsimonps · August 2017

Subversus wrote: »

So that little *** from stage 4 not only is the absolute biggest PITA to deal with as melee but he also has like twice the physical resists compared to mag resists... god I love vMA, such a great arena!!!!!!!

Stage 4? Really? Never had any problems with that as a melee toon. One of the easiest Arenas there is.

Masel · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

So that little *** from stage 4 not only is the absolute biggest PITA to deal with as melee but he also has like twice the physical resists compared to mag resists... god I love vMA, such a great arena!!!!!!!

Stage 4? Really? Never had any problems with that as a melee toon. One of the easiest Arenas there is.

Yup, just put dots on the guy, damage him while sniffing his tin can butt, and as soon as he stops, ballista him to death.

Samwell Slayer · August 2017

dpencil1 wrote: »

I did a quick test on one of the first dremora caster with the 2-handed Ulti. It gave me a 18.2k resistance buff, so it looks like 12k Mag / 18.2k Phys resistance on the bigger mobs of the first arena.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/314221/list-of-physical-resist-in-maelstrom-and-best-dps-set#latest]

I wrote a forum post with all the mobs in VMA here in terms of physical resistance. Took only a few minutes after stratifying my damage numbers. I had also done the sams with magika resist, but never made a post about it.

Locriana · February 2018

@dpencil1 thanks for all this information. I did the math on my magsorc and figured out she's getting about 13.5k spell penetration. Using the lover stone, divines and champ points, plus la passive. This considerably boosted my performance on the skeleton test everyone uses for trial worthiness assessment. It's a bit hard to translate my own numbers into what I might want to change for the trial group I did these tests to get into. Oh the irony... lol.

First, does my SP apply just to MY spell penetration? Seems to be the way it's presented. Which would be different from a general resistance debuff which, say, made less SP necessary... Is that what you're saying?
Meaning, because I have SP, that wouldn't enable my teammate to penetrate their spells any better. But if I had say Elle drain which reduces the target resistance, that would affect how much SP each team member doing dps would need .... Right?

Though I tried doing a dps test with my SP at 13,500 with and without ele drain. Did much better WITH the ele drain, so apparently it wasn't enough even at that level without debuff. Makes me wonder how these factorrs really inter-relate.

In light of this what would you suggest for my sorc going into vet trials.? Keep the lovers stone that got me the scores to get into the vet trials? Or use the apprentice or thief stone and drop the the SP significantly (along with the test dps). On the idea there will be something more powerful than ele-drain going on so I wouldn't need as much penetration.

Do trial groups compare SP needed by individuals to the debuffs available, or to the other members bringing SP.?

Just trying to think of this in terms of a practical situation...

Asardes · February 2018

It depends a lot what others are bringing in trials. Buffs that can have 100% up time: your own penetration is 0.1K by default, Light Armor:Concentration passive is 4.9K, major Breach (elemental drain) is 5.3K, 40 CP into Spell Erosion give 3.3K, so a total of 13.6K penetration. Others will not have 100% up time, or not be present at all: Crusher enchant from Torug's infused is 2.7K (~90%), minor breach is 1.3K from Stamina Templar:Power of the Light (~80%), Alkosh is another 3K (~70%). Theoretically that's about 7K, but the uptime overlap on all 3 is slightly less than 70% even in a well coordinated group. In that kind of scenario Apprentice is still better than Lover.

If you run mostly with PuGs I would say you should stick to Lover, since that adds 4.2K penetration, which results in 17.8K, so almost full penetration regardless of the unreliable debuffs.

jnelson1182 · April 2018

*Great info guys thanks, I was wondering when it comes to solo pve mostly some group stuff what is a good number to aim for when it comes to my resistances? I'm a mag DK dps and I am trying to figure out if I need to run resist buff from mundus stone or if I should run volatile armor instead, or if I even need either.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

jnelson1182 wrote: »

*Great info guys thanks, I was wondering when it comes to solo pve mostly some group stuff what is a good number to aim for when it comes to my resistances? I'm a mag DK dps and I am trying to figure out if I need to run resist buff from mundus stone or if I should run volatile armor instead, or if I even need either.

As a dps you don't worry about resists, you worry about getting your health to 17-18k and then pumping your damage. Then just stay out of red and slot harness as a mag dps if the healer is crap or vigor if you are Stam.

jnelson1182 · April 2018

so don't worry about them at all, even if they are under 10k if I run a setup completely ignoring the resistance changes the gear gives me? its not much under 10k but its under unless I run volatile armor or the mundus for resistance, do u think by running that mundus I am losing out on dps for no reason?

if it makes a difference I am a mag DK, my thought behind this was that I have heard they are not doing so hot in pve endgame groups so I figured maybe if I was a DK but didn't die as often as others maybe they would keep me dispite whatever reasoning behind people disliking DK's right now

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2018

so don't worry about them at all, even if they are under 10k if I run a setup completely ignoring the resistance changes the gear gives me? its not much under 10k but its under unless I run volatile armor or the mundus for resistance, do u think by running that mundus I am losing out on dps for no reason?

Yes.

if it makes a difference I am a mag DK, my thought behind this was that I have heard they are not doing so hot in pve endgame groups so I figured maybe if I was a DK but didn't die as often as others maybe they would keep me dispite whatever reasoning behind people disliking DK's right now

If the stuff we are hearing from the people that have played the next patch is to be believed, magdk will be the best mag dps in the game. Do you have the light armor skill annulment unlocked? If you don't, get that and use it if you think you will die too much. Way better then resists, like a 15k ward.

jnelson1182 · April 2018

Yea I have it slotted almost always, between it and the class dot that heals its the only things I really use to stay alive, the skills work really well with each because if my health gets low I can pop shield then place dot and by time shield is done health is full or at least almost. I was thinking about trying the mundus for crit to see if it gives me a bump in dps, I was wondering also how I would be able to tell if I should run the penetration stone or if what I have now is enough?

I also just got the willpower necklace and 2rings, all purple, But I also have the embershild necklace, lich, bsw, and silks as well as 2 rings for lich and bsw, due to playing on console I can't use any addons so I am having a hard time determining which are better. I have a embershield inferno staff as well as lich, bsw lightning staff's which is one reason I mix sets, in general is it better to finish one 5-piece set rather than mix and match to get higher numbers in max mag/health?

sorry if I am asking for a lot of info I am just a new player still but am very interested in getting the most out of my dk than possible .

Waffennacht · April 2018

Darn I remember when this was written. Gave me a flashback, was glad I saw the date lmfao.

The info here isn't bad, just very outdated.

CPs have changed, Sharpened value has changed, and soon sets will also change

jnelson1182 · April 2018

yea I figure most of it was probably outdated I'm just trying to find all the information I can to get the most out of it as possible