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Magsorc ridiculously OP
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Zendran✭✭✭Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »
Yeah, it's pretty cool. Though the typo "loose" instead of "lose" infuriates me a little.1 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).
Can some1 explain to me why people complain about streak in the first place? Even assuming no increasing cost, it's countered by 1 gap close. I could see ball of lightning being unbalanced but that can be fixed by placing a cap or some other means.
If I could spam streak I would only run hardened ward. I barely use harness now as it is.
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Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Disregarding the fact it doesn't work anymore anyways, but it sounds like you just want to argue...
Disregarding the fact the resto ult wouldn't have worked on the overload bar, it was still a great spot for a more utility ulti.
It still works.
Resto ult also works on the overload bar. I´ve tested it shortly after the first comment about it no longer working was made a few days ago - and i´ve just tested it again 20s ago.
How are you getting it to work, I have tried dragging it onto that bar and it flips out of overload and applies it to the normal bar. This worked in the past for me but I haven't played my Sorc in a while.
Just tested it again as well, not working for me.
Are you on console where you are a patch back atm?
Are you using an exploit to get it to work? if so shame on you...
I can´t post how i get it to work because that would be posting an exploit which is against the forum rules...
ShadowProc wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »ShadowProc wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.
Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.
This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).
It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.
Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:
Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.
Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst
Or
CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG
Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling
Are you trolling me?
I posted the stats i´m getting. How do you think you´ll run someone dry? Attacking their stampool with 1100 stamrec (without pot active mind you). Good luck with that.
I know you run a warden that can trolltank with the same potential a sorc can. That´s why stacking absorb + harness/dampen should be nerfed aswell.Waffennacht wrote: »Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.
Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.
This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).
It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.
Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:
Remember Sorcs use mag abilities too lol. You can counter their offense or their CC break. Constantly Purging Curse, Blocking or Dodging or reflecting frags will run any sorc dry. Along with these massive shields come a massive cost.
Once the resource heavy starts they are desperate. Then burst
Or
CC them every single chance. Also roots - believe it or not a heavy attack (to change where they are facing while rooted) really messed up burst and gives an opportunity to hard CC. Once Stam is low, CC burst GG
Also like the vast majority of the base doesn't know about heavy moving while rooted so they spend a ton of Stam dodge rolling
I literally can't believe anyone is arguing that a sustain build with very little damage shouldn't be able to turtle for prolonged periods of time(never mind that 3 people will wtfsmash your little shield stack no matter how good you sustain), if you build for sustain on any spec you can turtle forever, what is different?
Yeah that "sustain" build only gets a selfbuffed (no resource not procced not empowered) tooltip of 16500 for crystal fragments.
Ok, then battle spirit, armor mitigation, CP mitigation, block, damage debuffs, etc. what's that hitting for? 6k on a dodgeable, blockable, reflectable, ability. Crushing shock spam is literally harder to deal with 90% of the time
Idk what the meta is on PC EU, but the rest of us run defensive utility sets or take advantage of mechanics that allow the easy trashing of sorcs who aren't running significant damage. At that point you either turtle or die while hopelessly trying to kill an opponent with more damage and better defense than you. Skilled players are always going to perform and the ease of turtling on sorc allows you to wait out mistakes.
Clearly this thread is full of bads and as a good player, you're propping up their false opinions by arguing with logical, experienced players about this straw man you have constructed. Please just stop
Please point out to me where 24k of stacked shields with an effective cost of 261 magica (against a magica opponent) being unkillable for said magica opponent is a strawman argument?
What about this statement is wrong and what about it is a strawman?
How are you going to "trash" a sorc by running defensive utility. By also being unkillable? WOW YOU FINALLY GET TO THE POINT I`M ARGUING ABOUT - CONGRATS. I think being unkillable is idiotic.
Also what is that opponent with more dmg and better defense - i´m intrigued (CS gets a tt just short of 10k - idk what builds go that much higher especially when sustaining destrostaff without heavyattacks).
Edit: I´ve said it two times in this topic aswell. I only think of shieldstacking as problematic against players/builds that trigger harness. I don´t think sorc is op and i don´t think shields per se are op.
I have never met a player (especially since morrowind) that can put out ~11k noncrit dps on a magica build that is needed to break high magica shieldstacking.
This is a sorc is OP thread. It isn't a "people should not be able to turtle forever thread" choosing to focus on that logical fallacy is a joke.
Again, you're arguing about a mechanic that literally any magika spec can use and complaining about that in a sorc thread. That's a straw man and it's causing all these bads to latch onto your already flawed arguement. If you can't see that you've clearly buried your head in the sand. I'm done with this, have fun arguing your arguement about turtling and never running out of resources when the build you're talking about is one of the worst in the game at it.
Derra is backing his arguments up with math and examples. You offer bad jokes and no valid arguments. You have anything to back up your arguments? Or to actually counter his? If not your one of the bads
Lmfao, both @Lexxypwns and @Derra are really good. I wish I could just say, "Derra you're bad, therefore wrong" or "Lexxypwns you're good, you're right" but sadly not.
Quite frankly, I have been running into DKs and Wardens that make Sorcs look like they're made of Paper. Just for the sake of a chance to kill, I look forward to Sorcs.
I dunno wtf these new builds are running, but unless they over extend, they ain't dying
Him being a good player is not translating very well into a discussion about balancing a broken mechanic. He is demonstrating more feelings than actual counter arguments.
The point is that this is a sorc op thread not a thread about the mechanics of harness magika, it's not even a sorc skill. Arguing that harness is overperforming, while mathematically supported, is irrelevant to this discussion.
I´m pretty convinced 80% of the "sorc OP" forum topics would end the instant shieldstacking becomes a thing of the past.
Also my only problem with harness at this point is that it´s not working according to ZOS own desired designgoals. They nerfed the living hell out of all % based sustain available in the game.
They kept harness a scaling resource return - it makes no sense and it´s overperforming with high resource pools.
The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).
It's not the shield stack that's the problem, shield stacking is no different than any other tanking, except it becomes useless against 3+ targets. It's the ability to 100-0 pugs. I don't run harness on sorc and still get hate tells, it's because the burst is dangerous against squishy(bad) builds while also not being able to be killed in 1 rotation.
You and I can see the curse on us, know the frag is coming and react, bads that can't or don't predict the incoming burst will always get smashed by sorcs, even without harness. Then they come to the forums to cry.Edited by Lexxypwns on August 24, 2017 7:32PM0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).
Can some1 explain to me why people complain about streak in the first place? Even assuming no increasing cost, it's countered by 1 gap close. I could see ball of lightning being unbalanced but that can be fixed by placing a cap or some other means.
If I could spam streak I would only run hardened ward. I barely use harness now as it is.
People complain because clever sorcs streak through them, resulting in a snare, which 1) drains resources for a gap closer, and 2) usually gives the sorc enough time to increase the distance such that they have time to re-cast streak and escape gap-close range. Also, with high enough recovery, and creative use of Balance & Dark Exchange, a sorc can cast streak three or four consecutive times, which is usually enough to get away. The sorc might have to sacrifice damage, but at the point where their opponent has survived their frag spam, the sorc has already switched to a kiting, resource game.
The counter to streak is actually cheap ranged CCs like Crippling Grasp that cost the sorc time.
Ultimately, the best counter to streak is to not follow. If the sorc wants to run, let them. They aren't accomplishing anything for their alliance. Apart from negate and mines, the class doesn't have unique PvP group utility.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."2 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).
Can some1 explain to me why people complain about streak in the first place? Even assuming no increasing cost, it's countered by 1 gap close. I could see ball of lightning being unbalanced but that can be fixed by placing a cap or some other means.
If I could spam streak I would only run hardened ward. I barely use harness now as it is.
People complain because clever sorcs streak through them, resulting in a snare, which 1) drains resources for a gap closer, and 2) usually gives the sorc enough time to increase the distance such that they have time to re-cast streak and escape gap-close range. Also, with high enough recovery, and creative use of Balance & Dark Exchange, a sorc can cast streak three or four consecutive times, which is usually enough to get away. The sorc might have to sacrifice damage, but at the point where their opponent has survived their frag spam, the sorc has already switched to a kiting, resource game.
The counter to streak is actually cheap ranged CCs like Crippling Grasp that cost the sorc time.
Ultimately, the best counter to streak is to not follow. If the sorc wants to run, let them. They aren't accomplishing anything for their alliance. Apart from negate and mines, the class doesn't have unique PvP group utility.
What?
Streak stuns, not snares. You need THREE streaks to escape gapclosers if you streak through the enemy. And then you're out of magicka. Crippling won't work on streak, it ignores roots. Group utility as in not mines, but encase+negate is absolutely war changing.
Dude...0 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭
People complain because clever sorcs streak through them, resulting in a snare, which 1) drains resources for a gap closer, and 2) usually gives the sorc enough time to increase the distance such that they have time to re-cast streak and escape gap-close range. Also, with high enough recovery, and creative use of Balance & Dark Exchange, a sorc can cast streak three or four consecutive times, which is usually enough to get away. The sorc might have to sacrifice damage, but at the point where their opponent has survived their frag spam, the sorc has already switched to a kiting, resource game.
The counter to streak is actually cheap ranged CCs like Crippling Grasp that cost the sorc time.
Ultimately, the best counter to streak is to not follow. If the sorc wants to run, let them. They aren't accomplishing anything for their alliance. Apart from negate and mines, the class doesn't have unique PvP group utility.
I mean this was my understanding of it. As a solo sorc, the only time I ever really streak (to run) is when a duel or 1vx turns into a 1vZerg. I really feel every class should have a means to escape zergs. Definitely my bias as a solo player coming into play here, but anyways, off topic. Thank you for clearing that up for me.Edited by IAVITNI on August 25, 2017 11:49AM0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).
Can some1 explain to me why people complain about streak in the first place? Even assuming no increasing cost, it's countered by 1 gap close. I could see ball of lightning being unbalanced but that can be fixed by placing a cap or some other means.
If I could spam streak I would only run hardened ward. I barely use harness now as it is.
People complain because clever sorcs streak through them, resulting in a snare, which 1) drains resources for a gap closer, and 2) usually gives the sorc enough time to increase the distance such that they have time to re-cast streak and escape gap-close range. Also, with high enough recovery, and creative use of Balance & Dark Exchange, a sorc can cast streak three or four consecutive times, which is usually enough to get away. The sorc might have to sacrifice damage, but at the point where their opponent has survived their frag spam, the sorc has already switched to a kiting, resource game.
The counter to streak is actually cheap ranged CCs like Crippling Grasp that cost the sorc time.
Ultimately, the best counter to streak is to not follow. If the sorc wants to run, let them. They aren't accomplishing anything for their alliance. Apart from negate and mines, the class doesn't have unique PvP group utility.
What?
Streak stuns, not snares. You need THREE streaks to escape gapclosers if you streak through the enemy. And then you're out of magicka. Crippling won't work on streak, it ignores roots. Group utility as in not mines, but encase+negate is absolutely war changing.
Dude...
1. Stun, snare, both are CCs. The delay in opponent reaction is the relevant point here.
2. Rusty has no problem streaking three or more times, and dealing damage. With enough recovery, and creative use of Balance + Dark Exchange, it can be done.
3. Crippling doesn't interrupt the streak. You cast it during the streak so that it hits when the streak ends, thus delaying the next cast of streak. It buys you time.
4. Encase and negate are war-changing in the current bomb meta, but the streak sorcs aren't the ones in coordinated groups changing the war.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I really feel every class should have a means to escape zergs.
Quote of the day.
If you want people to pvp you need to give them tools to atleast evade 20 people that want to pvp (reactively not proactive).
Eventually people stay to fights even if they have the theoretical chance to run bc ultimately running gains them nothing.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭I would like sorc to become harder to play so that the sorc players get better and don't die to Shehai's sword-throw on the second phase every time.
I would also appreciate wider awareness in the sorc community that oblivion damage exists in PvE as well, and their shield duration isn't the thing that's failing them.
As a stamblade, I would appreciate sorcs costing me less soul gems.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭I would also like Winged Twilight attacks to count as formal taunts on the summoning sorc, so that Velidreth can acquaint that sorc with not running that pet in a group with me.Edited by waitwhat on August 24, 2017 8:43PMPS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Once you know how to fight them, it's not really a problem even accounting for harness sustain vs. your magicka skills.
That is until you meet that sorc that enjoys having 30 minute duels standing in mines and attronarch stacking shields until you fall asleep.
That said - i have pretty solid stats vs sorc on my magblade aswell. In general dying to sorcs is really hard if you understand the class.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
alext89✭✭✭I used to main a sorc. And i agree, i really Think They overpeform. If we took a new player, gave him 100 hours to Master a Class. I Think he Would being most succes to the sorc. If we all could agree, he woulnd have any favorate Class or play style to begin whit.
The issue is the easy combined burst. Time a dawnbreaker, when curse blows, While having a proc c-frag ready. And endless fury. Which Can even work if applyed just before the combo.
If u are in medium armor. Or light armor, and not a shieldstacker too. Then its pretty Much over for u.
These tools whit the movility and survivalbility seems in my eyes too Much. Not to mention how u Can run a low regn build. Whit Dark Exchange and lich. And focus on High Damage stats.
I cant really see the downsides of a sorc. Other than shield stacking is borring.
I Think People complain is bc u dont have to be that good a player, to kick ass on a sorc,. If your build do not counter specific Them, But maybe more all arround. Then most sorc u meet, Can be pretty dangours.
For other classes. Meeting an avarage player, i Think there are bigger Windows for having your buffs up, or counter Them. The burst stacking isnt as Big, u Can fight your Way out of execute zone and your own burst Windows seem to succes more. Since u dont have to destroy or wait for 2 shield to disapear.
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Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
✭2. Rusty has no problem streaking three or more times, and dealing damage. With enough recovery, and creative use of Balance + Dark Exchange, it can be done.
The player Rusty_accordion69?
Anyway, if this is the same Rusty, he's also out there baiting zergling potatoes to come to his MagSorc + anyone else that teams with him-- so they can AP Farm bads. His Streaking is probably a lot more relaxed because he doesn't have to over exert his mana pool to kill the bads. Potato players are not necessarily the same thing as fighting a guy like kfresh26 or someone else who knows very cleary what they are doing. Rusty would knowingly adjust his play style according to the guy he is fighting. Any good player would pull out the serious sam toolkit for hard core fights.Edited by Takes-No-Prisoner on August 24, 2017 8:49PM0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »2. Rusty has no problem streaking three or more times, and dealing damage. With enough recovery, and creative use of Balance + Dark Exchange, it can be done.
The player Rusty_accordion69?
Anyway, if this is the same Rusty, he's also out there baiting zergling potatoes to come to his MagSorc + anyone else that teams with him-- so they can AP Farm bads. His Streaking is probably a lot more relaxed because he doesn't have to over exert his mana pool to kill the bads. Potato players are not necessarily the same thing as fighting a guy like kfresh26 or someone else who knows very cleary what they are doing. Rusty would knowingly adjust his play style according to the guy he is fighting. Any good player would pull out the serious sam toolkit for hard core fights.
@Takes-No-Prisoner I completely agree, and yes it is that Rusty.
This in keeping with the point I made earlier about the streakers being, in the grand scheme of the campaign, insignificant. The sad thing about sorcs is that the relative ease of success with the class induces a kind of complacency that prevents many players from reaching the same levels of insight and cleverness as kfresh and Rusty possess.
I used to really hate sorcs in PvP, but then I slotted Absorb Magic, Mystic Guard, and Crippling Grasp.
Now, in PvE, I still hate them, but it's complicated.
1) I hate them because they have it so much easier than I do as a 7 medium stamblade in vMA and vet trials (imagine being just a squishy as a light armor build, but WITHOUT wards and a tighter roll-dodge margin).
2) I hate them because their image of ease among the playerbase has caused many in the sorc community to not develop a keen sense of situational awareness and proper positioning, costing me an inordinate amount of soul gems.
I always appreciate having good sorcs in my group, and I love that scamp to death, but I refuse to switch classes and am committed to getting Flawless Conquerer and the vMoL skin on my stamblade despite the challenge. I don't think the wider sorc population would remain sorcs if being one was as unforgiving as being a stamblade, but perhaps that's a statement on the damage the playerbase is doing to the class.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.
Stacking hardened + harness (i morphed it just so i could make this point) costs me 6156 magica.
Harness returns 5895 magica.
You need 261 magica regeneration (that stat in your character sheet) to stack shields for infinite amounts of time against a magica build with these stats.
I think the lowest rec a maxlevel char can get is ~800.
This is on a build with 4 necro 5 amber 2x maxmagica (22k hp 48kmaxmag 16k stam 1.1k stamrec 1.8k magrec) putting you at ~48k. You can build to get up to around ~52k magica without sacrificing too much (hint: at that point stacking shields gains you magica).
It´s literally impossible to run a shieldstacker out of magica when using magica based attacks.
Show me the experienced pvp player that´s telling me shieldstacking isn´t overperforming with a face not looking like this:
If I'm not mistaken harness has the ability to return magicka 3 times. 3 separate instances for 3 individual magicka attacks.
Harness is 7-10k from low to high size scale and a dk can whip once and pull it off and even if a 1-3k ward remains you aren't going to let that sit but instead will recast it perhaps before the full 3 tick returns are given.
I believe when you cover harness with ward, harness will give you magicka back even if it is the ward that is taking the damage. So you always get magicka back 3 times (unless someone can remove stacked harness+ward in just 2 attacks, which isn't very likely).
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Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Disregarding the fact it doesn't work anymore anyways, but it sounds like you just want to argue...
Disregarding the fact the resto ult wouldn't have worked on the overload bar, it was still a great spot for a more utility ulti.
It still works.
Resto ult also works on the overload bar. I´ve tested it shortly after the first comment about it no longer working was made a few days ago - and i´ve just tested it again 20s ago.
lel no , or you are a Cheater .. or you are just trying to spill false rumor about the sorc to get your " sorc nerf " quickly ... like all these person who say that the Sorc is OP in PVE dps ... it's not the case cause as you can see ( leaderboard ) there is a lot of stam DK ... more that sorc .Edited by Apherius on August 24, 2017 9:18PM0 -
Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Takes-No-Prisoner I completely agree, and yes it is that Rusty.
This in keeping with the point I made earlier about the streakers being, in the grand scheme of the campaign, insignificant. The sad thing about sorcs is that the relative ease of success with the class induces a kind of complacency that prevents many players from reaching the same levels of insight and cleverness as kfresh and Rusty possess.
I used to really hate sorcs in PvP, but then I slotted Absorb Magic, Mystic Guard, and Crippling Grasp.
Now, in PvE, I still hate them, but it's complicated.
1) I hate them because they have it so much easier than I do as a 7 medium stamblade in vMA and vet trials (imagine being just a squishy as a light armor build, but WITHOUT wards and a tighter roll-dodge margin).
2) I hate them because their image of ease among the playerbase has caused many in the sorc community to not develop a keen sense of situational awareness and proper positioning, costing me an inordinate amount of soul gems.
I always appreciate having good sorcs in my group, and I love that scamp to death, but I refuse to switch classes and am committed to getting Flawless Conquerer and the vMoL skin on my stamblade despite the challenge. I don't think the wider sorc population would remain sorcs if being one was as unforgiving as being a stamblade, but perhaps that's a statement on the damage the playerbase is doing to the class.
This in keeping with the point I made earlier about the streakers being, in the grand scheme of the campaign, insignificant. The sad thing about sorcs is that the relative ease of success with the class induces a kind of complacency that prevents many players from reaching the same levels of insight and cleverness as kfresh and Rusty possess.
This can be said with any class honestly. Sorc has the most obtuse skills in the game, that don't behave nearly the same way as Nightblade or Templars. MagSorc's Timing/execution barrier to kill the target with 5 strikes going off at once takes more thought process.
I used to really hate sorcs in PvP, but then I slotted Absorb Magic, Mystic Guard, and Crippling Grasp.
Yup, I've gotten hit with Snares on my MagSorc and it's a bad feeling to feel cooped up. Something MagSorc never wants.
Now, in PvE, I still hate them, but it's complicated.
1) I hate them because they have it so much easier than I do as a 7 medium stamblade in vMA and vet trials (imagine being just a squishy as a light armor build, but WITHOUT wards and a tighter roll-dodge margin).
2) I hate them because their image of ease among the playerbase has caused many in the sorc community to not develop a keen sense of situational awareness and proper positioning, costing me an inordinate amount of soul gems.
That's not what trial leaderboards say. Ask the PC players here, they will tell you. Stam is doing very well even after HoTR patch. Especially StamDK, a class we never see in PvP. With HoTR patch coming to Console, we will see less pet builds because of the Necro nerf.
I always appreciate having good sorcs in my group, and I love that scamp to death, but I refuse to switch classes and am committed to getting Flawless Conquerer and the vMoL skin on my stamblade despite the challenge. I don't think the wider sorc population would remain sorcs if being one was as unforgiving as being a stamblade, but perhaps that's a statement on the damage the playerbase is doing to the class
I tried vMA, but I'm not a PvEr. You'll always see my blooded face out in Cyro.0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Once you know how to fight them, it's not really a problem even accounting for harness sustain vs. your magicka skills.
That is until you meet that sorc that enjoys having 30 minute duels standing in mines and attronarch stacking shields until you fall asleep.
That said - i have pretty solid stats vs sorc on my magblade aswell. In general dying to sorcs is really hard if you understand the class.
This just fills me with rage. i just ignore that sorc. Or if the sorc zergs are on i just log off0 -
Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »Once you know how to fight them, it's not really a problem even accounting for harness sustain vs. your magicka skills.
That is until you meet that sorc that enjoys having 30 minute duels standing in mines and attronarch stacking shields until you fall asleep.
That said - i have pretty solid stats vs sorc on my magblade aswell. In general dying to sorcs is really hard if you understand the class.
This just fills me with rage. i just ignore that sorc. Or if the sorc zergs are on i just log off
Lol same
I will peace out if the guy wants to engage in forever warfare. Big nopes to that!0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).
Can some1 explain to me why people complain about streak in the first place? Even assuming no increasing cost, it's countered by 1 gap close. I could see ball of lightning being unbalanced but that can be fixed by placing a cap or some other means.
If I could spam streak I would only run hardened ward. I barely use harness now as it is.
People complain because clever sorcs streak through them, resulting in a snare, which 1) drains resources for a gap closer, and 2) usually gives the sorc enough time to increase the distance such that they have time to re-cast streak and escape gap-close range. Also, with high enough recovery, and creative use of Balance & Dark Exchange, a sorc can cast streak three or four consecutive times, which is usually enough to get away. The sorc might have to sacrifice damage, but at the point where their opponent has survived their frag spam, the sorc has already switched to a kiting, resource game.
The counter to streak is actually cheap ranged CCs like Crippling Grasp that cost the sorc time.
Ultimately, the best counter to streak is to not follow. If the sorc wants to run, let them. They aren't accomplishing anything for their alliance. Apart from negate and mines, the class doesn't have unique PvP group utility.
What?
Streak stuns, not snares. You need THREE streaks to escape gapclosers if you streak through the enemy. And then you're out of magicka. Crippling won't work on streak, it ignores roots. Group utility as in not mines, but encase+negate is absolutely war changing.
Dude...
1. Stun, snare, both are CCs. The delay in opponent reaction is the relevant point here.
2. Rusty has no problem streaking three or more times, and dealing damage. With enough recovery, and creative use of Balance + Dark Exchange, it can be done.
3. Crippling doesn't interrupt the streak. You cast it during the streak so that it hits when the streak ends, thus delaying the next cast of streak. It buys you time.
4. Encase and negate are war-changing in the current bomb meta, but the streak sorcs aren't the ones in coordinated groups changing the war.
Snare isn't really a hard cc, it doesn't effect streak either. The only cc that affects streak are hard cc's, roots doesn't work and neither does stuns.
Steak was nerfed because being able to infinetly streak across the map was annoying. Yes you could gap close them but most of the time they'd either streak through you are be out of range before you can gap close. Then they simply was not catchable.
Even now you can only really catch a streaking/ dark conversion sorc if your on a medium build and sprint with expedition or somehow get on your horse and hope the sorc keeps going in a straight line.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »The other 20% are probably related to streak (i´d love to see mobility brought back into the game btw).
Can some1 explain to me why people complain about streak in the first place? Even assuming no increasing cost, it's countered by 1 gap close. I could see ball of lightning being unbalanced but that can be fixed by placing a cap or some other means.
If I could spam streak I would only run hardened ward. I barely use harness now as it is.
People complain because clever sorcs streak through them, resulting in a snare, which 1) drains resources for a gap closer, and 2) usually gives the sorc enough time to increase the distance such that they have time to re-cast streak and escape gap-close range. Also, with high enough recovery, and creative use of Balance & Dark Exchange, a sorc can cast streak three or four consecutive times, which is usually enough to get away. The sorc might have to sacrifice damage, but at the point where their opponent has survived their frag spam, the sorc has already switched to a kiting, resource game.
The counter to streak is actually cheap ranged CCs like Crippling Grasp that cost the sorc time.
Ultimately, the best counter to streak is to not follow. If the sorc wants to run, let them. They aren't accomplishing anything for their alliance. Apart from negate and mines, the class doesn't have unique PvP group utility.
What?
Streak stuns, not snares. You need THREE streaks to escape gapclosers if you streak through the enemy. And then you're out of magicka. Crippling won't work on streak, it ignores roots. Group utility as in not mines, but encase+negate is absolutely war changing.
Dude...
1. Stun, snare, both are CCs. The delay in opponent reaction is the relevant point here.
2. Rusty has no problem streaking three or more times, and dealing damage. With enough recovery, and creative use of Balance + Dark Exchange, it can be done.
3. Crippling doesn't interrupt the streak. You cast it during the streak so that it hits when the streak ends, thus delaying the next cast of streak. It buys you time.
4. Encase and negate are war-changing in the current bomb meta, but the streak sorcs aren't the ones in coordinated groups changing the war.
Snare isn't really a hard cc, it doesn't effect streak either. The only cc that affects streak are hard cc's, roots doesn't work and neither does stuns.
Steak was nerfed because being able to infinetly streak across the map was annoying. Yes you could gap close them but most of the time they'd either streak through you are be out of range before you can gap close. Then they simply was not catchable.
Even now you can only really catch a streaking/ dark conversion sorc if your on a medium build and sprint with expedition or somehow get on your horse and hope the sorc keeps going in a straight line.
All you need is a gap closer0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorcs are very strong, they have a good spreadsheet or skills.
A strong burst dot: curse
A strong instant cc with good damage and low cost: frags
One of the best kiting/ escape skills in the game: streak
Good defence ability: Ward
The best execute: mage's wrath
Strong sustain ability: Dark deal
More good utility moves: surge, encase, defensive rune, negate, aegis
Does any of these skills make sorcs op? No, no single ability would make a class op, the combination of them is very strong as each skill works perfectly for the whole picture.
Sorcs have one of the easiest rotation: curse, mage's wrath, frags + ult is often enough to kill inexperienced/ inattentive players.
On the other hand it's hard to strengthen the burst against better players.
And if the sorcs begins to lose the fight he can easily disengage with streak, it's the old police/ thief game but in this case the thief catches the police, when the sorc can't be hit with a gap closer one time he's in charge to decide when he wants to fight again. Most of the time the sorc can disengage because of lag / bugged gap closers / LoS even though it's range is smaller than the range of most gap closers
While the sorcs are untouchable due to range they can restore more resources than any other class in a short period of time with dark deal with no risk as they can't be interrupted.
An opponent chasing them with sprint has to spent lots of resources making them vulnerable to a sorc that is at full resources.
This is a huge part to why many people think sorcs are op.
They only have to win once but you have to survive every attack and if you win the first two or three fight round in which the sorc flees but he gets lucky in the next attempt you got 0 ap wasted your time and he got your kill and the ap.
This is frustrating, you don't get anything when the opponent flees.
This is something you can't change without ruining many skills or full class specs or changing the whole game system.
What you can change is the ability of the sorcs opponent to kill the sorc.
The main survivability of a sorc comes from shields combined with small heals to fill the health you lost when your shields dropped.
With Harness magicka and hardened ward and healing ward you can become unkillable in a 1v1 1v2 and even in a 1v3 if you aren't fighting organised enemies as long as you can sustain it, which is easy doable when fighting magicka chars.
As @Derra said he reaches 23k shields without healing ward and there are builds with more max magicka leading to higher shields.
The best thing I can think of is to remove shield stacking of hardened ward and harness magicka.
Now there is the next shield healing ward.
Don't let it fully stack either, make it that your maximum amount of healing ward you can get while using hardened ward is a percentage of hardened ward meaning at 100% live you only get a 10% higher shield which consists of
100% of the healing ward strength and the missing x% of the hardened ward
At 50% health it's increased to 20% of your hardened ward tooltip and below 30% health it is increased to 50% of your hardened ward tooltip.
With these changes its still good to stack max magicka builds but not making it as strong as it is now and you can still protect the healing ward shield.
1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Quite frankly, I think la mDKs and Magden's have more going for them than Sorcs.
I think both mDKs and mDens have a much higher skill requirements than Sorcs.
I really don't have a vested interest in keeping Sorcs from getting nerfed, I truly do not have the same issues other players do.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭C'mon guys, stay realistic.
Streak won't get you away from gapclosers as easily as you make it out. The range is tiny. Plus, Cyrodiil terrain is a nightmare for its behaviour. A stam player with Expedition will run for longer than you streak, and if you rely on Conversion's 1.2 second channel, anyone will easily catch up. Streak is only good if you're still out of range. Once the gap is closed, it's over.
That cheap and damaging CC is actually telegraphed as hell, and can be reactively dodged or blocked thanks to the slow travel time. No competition to Fossilize and Fear. You also gotta hope you get that frag proc when you need it, which is not always the case.
Shield stacking with Harness only works against magicka players, who could run Harness themselves. But even as mag, those shields can be beaten by timing. They expire shortly after that oh-so-OP four second burst combo. A simple CC interrupts the combo and causes shields to expire before the combo is applied, wasting the sorc's efforts. And this is 1v1. Which never happens in Cyro. Prepare to have your almighty shields roflstomped by two enemies.
Curse is a good move, but you got 4 seconds to prepare. Fury has the lowest execution threshold and lowest damage. It often fails to deliver a killing blow, making it questionable.
Seriously, some pretend sorcs are forces of nature that fart lightning and disintegrate your HDD. Maybe you should spend less time b***ing here and improve your gameplay against them through analysis and exploiting their weaknesses.1 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭
Disregarding the fact it doesn't work anymore anyways, but it sounds like you just want to argue...
Disregarding the fact the resto ult wouldn't have worked on the overload bar, it was still a great spot for a more utility ulti.
It still works.
Resto ult also works on the overload bar. I´ve tested it shortly after the first comment about it no longer working was made a few days ago - and i´ve just tested it again 20s ago.
How are you getting it to work, I have tried dragging it onto that bar and it flips out of overload and applies it to the normal bar. This worked in the past for me but I haven't played my Sorc in a while.
Just tested it again as well, not working for me.
Are you on console where you are a patch back atm?
Are you using an exploit to get it to work? if so shame on you...
I can´t post how i get it to work because that would be posting an exploit which is against the forum rules...
Ah so it doesn't work anymore. Why argue balance over an exploit? One would have to be dumb as a stump to do that, it's like arguing a class is OP because you can install CE and play it.
You didn't have to exploit to slot 3 ultis before, I'm happy they changed it.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The best thing I can think of is to remove shield stacking of hardened ward and harness magicka.
Now there is the next shield healing ward.
Don't let it fully stack either, make it that your maximum amount of healing ward you can get while using hardened ward is a percentage of hardened ward meaning at 100% live you only get a 10% higher shield which consists of
100% of the healing ward strength and the missing x% of the hardened ward
At 50% health it's increased to 20% of your hardened ward tooltip and below 30% health it is increased to 50% of your hardened ward tooltip.
With these changes its still good to stack max magicka builds but not making it as strong as it is now and you can still protect the healing ward shield.
You can´t just take away healing ward.
You´re only figuring in the shield - healing ward is also sorcs main heal if they don´t slot twilight. So unless you were to change sorcs selfhealing capabilities drastically you can´t touch healing ward without making the class a sitting duck against any experienced player.
Disregarding the fact it doesn't work anymore anyways, but it sounds like you just want to argue...
Disregarding the fact the resto ult wouldn't have worked on the overload bar, it was still a great spot for a more utility ulti.
It still works.
Resto ult also works on the overload bar. I´ve tested it shortly after the first comment about it no longer working was made a few days ago - and i´ve just tested it again 20s ago.
How are you getting it to work, I have tried dragging it onto that bar and it flips out of overload and applies it to the normal bar. This worked in the past for me but I haven't played my Sorc in a while.
Just tested it again as well, not working for me.
Are you on console where you are a patch back atm?
Are you using an exploit to get it to work? if so shame on you...
I can´t post how i get it to work because that would be posting an exploit which is against the forum rules...
Ah so it doesn't work anymore. Why argue balance over an exploit? One would have to be dumb as a stump to do that, it's like arguing a class is OP because you can install CE and play it.
You didn't have to exploit to slot 3 ultis before, I'm happy they changed it.
It was always an exploit. It still works - which is why i can´t post it.
I honestly never realized they fixed one "lazy" was of achieving it but the more obvious stayed in.Waffennacht wrote: »Quite frankly, I think la mDKs and Magden's have more going for them than Sorcs.
I think both mDKs and mDens have a much higher skill requirements than Sorcs.
I really don't have a vested interest in keeping Sorcs from getting nerfed, I truly do not have the same issues other players do.
Well permablock really does hardcounter sorc because the dmg is all projectile based (1h + shield that is).
Also you´re mainly warden. Warden is probably even more broken than sorc when fighting magica opponents using projectile builds.
So not seeing issues with sorcs playing a class that absolutely hardcounters them comes kinda naturally
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well permablock really does hardcounter sorc because the dmg is all projectile based (1h + shield that is).
Also you´re mainly warden. Warden is probably even more broken than sorc when fighting magica opponents using projectile builds.
So not seeing issues with sorcs playing a class that absolutely hardcounters them comes kinda naturally
0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When it comes to shieldstacking and stuff I´ve notice that the best way to burn down a shieldstacking sorc is to stack a lot of weapon/spelldamage.
The only issue I have with sorc is that they can streak away while being rooted (Talons). Doesn´t make sense to me...2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Streak should have its cost increase removed. The sorcs is already gone by the time it does anything. In my opinion mobility and range via streak and mines should be magsorcs defence. Leave face tanking to heavier specs.
It shouldn't work in roots. Also give melee classes a way to reach sorcs who streaked up a rock.Edited by ak_pvp on August 25, 2017 9:00AMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0
