Magsorc ridiculously OP

Gilvoth · August 2017

just cut sorc damage in half and thier shields in half and they will be almost the same as the other classes.
quite simple.

ak_pvp · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Biro123 · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

Lexxypwns · August 2017

DeHei wrote: »

The OP is right, what he says. But duelling with this very strong makes let me and others getting more skill and become better player.
Its ironic, but i can beat some good sorcs allready. I dont would say change them, because they work fine. A change would just destroy the class.
On the other hand why not buffing some skills from other classes to simliar skills like sorcs have? This would bring more fun to other classes too and nobody would scream!

Templar need more CC (like the old stuneffect from blazing spear!)
Nightblades need some areadamageablitiys and dots
Dragonknights need a spammable Staminaskill for damage, a gapcloser and/or a finisher
Warden really need more damageskills or better working ones for diversity
Sorcs dont need anything because they allready have access to all

Just look here in forum to some ideas, there are great ones to make it happen

NB needs more aoe and dots when they have the best pvp aoe

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

just cut sorc damage in half and thier shields in half and they will be almost the same as the other classes.
quite simple.

Can you show me on the doll where that mean sorc touched you?

MetalHead4x4 · August 2017

Give me a break. I'm a Mag Sorc, I run Kag's, Infernal Guardian and Willpower (2 heavy 5 light), my shields are only about 17k with my 21k health, 36k magicka and 9k stam. I run the witchmother food for sustain with 1900 recovery and I run out of magicka all the time because of poisons. I think some classes have many advantages over Sorcs.

Take Streak/Ball Lightning, whether offensively or defensively, 2H Crit Rush, or the NB gap closer reaches further than we do, if you are running immovable pots, we don't get the stun. Same with frags, same with flaming reach, you don't get the knockdown so when your up close the 7 meter melee range is eating our shields and health.

6 seconds shields, what a joke, when you are taking damage you have to spam them. They are gone in a second or two, which is funny when you come across people like Faso, Xevenex, or Thetruelegend that seem to never lose their shields while eating damage from 5-6 guys and these Sorcs are nuking us down. rarely do you see any kind of animation AT ALL unless its a bar swap. There's no way they are simply that much better using the same skill set. They have some kind of edge.

Radiant Magelight, a joke. I still get insta-killed sometimes by NB's or anyone using a 2H build when hit from behind.

9k stam I'm lucky to get one block and a Dodge Roll out of it.

NB's, give me a break, guys like Mizaru and Miat nuke me in seconds, they dodge 9/10 of my attacks and hit me twice and I'm dead, that's with both shields up. When I do hit with flaming reach or frag, I'm lucky to get a 2k hit and thats with 3k spell damage. Plus that gap closer snare I can't move, lose all mobility.

I can't burn down a DK. I run out of magicka.

If I get gap closed, by the time I react and cast a shield, I've taken 5 hits from melee animation cancellers.

Defensive Rune, a joke, if you are insta-killed with a burst it doesn't protect you.

Healing Ward, sometimes it doesn't cast on you but someone else.

NB's can stealth even when using a Lightning Staff heavy attack.

Boundless Storm, the physical resistance is a joke, EVERY 2H attacks hits me for at least 7-8k, that's one shield I have to recast.

I noticed Templar Biting Jabs ignores my shields, I get my health burned down and my shields are still up.

Noticed lately I can't break free out of Fear, and half the time I get knocked down I can't get back up (I get knocked down! But can't get up again!) That should be the real song lyrics.

So anyone complaining probably has never played a Sorc. In 5 light 2 heavy you don't last long.

IAVITNI · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

And to be fair, that's my theory, not an assertion. My post is an attempt to analyze what a lot of us are seeing observstionally, which is that mag sorcs are light armor builds who feel confident enough to walk unhidden into uneven odds in close quarter open world combat, which seems a bit absurd for a light armor non-tank class, lol.

Ever consider the fact that sorcs seem op because they are the best 1vx class and top tier players who are bored of zergs run a sorc because the only fun they have is when they x other players?

I see what you're saying davey, I really do. I play every mag class except magic dk (which I am currently levelling and i have 1v3 cp toons at lvl 25) and mag warden (also levelling). If I'm going to 1vx, 100% I want my sorc and my stam nb comes in second for the sole reason that I can duck out of fights if a 1v6 turns into a 1v24.

In duels, I find my magplar to be much easier to use and I can use it just as effectively as my mag sorc (effective =/ efficient) and I used to main mag sorc until it was mainstream in homestead.

Your signature says khajit stamblade. I can see why you say msorc is op but that really comes down to medium being severely underpowered.

Is sorc strong? yes, absolutely. Overpowered? No. Sorc has 0 pressure outside crushing shock which any destro mag build has access to. Kills are 100% dependant on timing your burst. If you miss your frag (the most televised skill in the game imo) you're not going to kill someone who actually knows how to pvp. Shield stacking is strong but the "op" ness is really more of a psychological thing since players do not see any immediate reward for dealing damage. You can easily Vigor/Rally through the same damage that you would Harden/Harness through, the only difference is you actually get to SEE the damage done. Can't break through shields? Try some CC. Barring Amberplasm+pots, a sorc will go down if you make sure to cc off immunity cooldown. Pro tip: mSorc is most vulnerable when they go in for the kill as a full DPS rotation ends around 6 seconds. Point is Sorc has its strengths and weaknesses.

As for your examples of class skills being imbalanced, your basically saying sorc skills are +A because they are different than other skills. Rally vs Crit Surge? Rally is 100% better. Burst heal on demand and a decent HoT vs a a proc heal that is 100% useless vs other mag classes. On top of that, majority of sorcs will run degeneration anyways. Crit Surge is really a pve skill.

davey1107 wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL
Streak: again, youre missing the point, which is not that individual skills are OP, but that the class is OP due to skills that stack features. Yes, other classes can gap close and other classes can hunt with an AOE...by USING TWO BAR SLOTS. And that's the point...overly multitasking abilities offer the ability to slot more, thereby having more tools at their command.

As for it being a mediocre extender...meh...I'm not saying it's a perfect skill in this regard, but it does offer at least some functionality that no other gap closer offers. And no, I don't consider "running away" to be an ability, lol.

Would you rather all gap closers be the same? Streak is not a gap closer first off. It's a utility skill. Compare it to Petrify, Fear or Cleansing Ritual (i wouldn't know warden equivalent). I can make the same argument for ambush. Ambush lets you reposition, ignoring terrain and even keep doors, deals twice as much damage AND grants Empower. In order for streak to do the same thing I would need to also slot Mage light by USING TWO BAR SLOTS. Sure streak can stun but ambush will grant minor savagery to YOUR WHOLE GROUP if it crits. Sure streak is an AoE but it has an increasing cost where as Ambush can actually refund magicka on kills. Streak gives 2% damage OP? Ambush gives Crit which scales much better. I'll give you implosion. Literally. Take it. It's a useless passive that is op to my enemies and unnoticed by me.

This nerf sorc threads are annoying. Nobody every offers any tangible evidence other than opinion. Sorc is not OP in anyway except Dark Exchange, and only with respect to certain sets/combat scenarios. Will the average sorc kill the average nb? yeah, since the average night blade builds full damage and relies on cloak to survive leaving it hard countered by curse and extremely vulnerable to curse. I've stomped Nightblades and been killed by Nightblades in medium. It's more about player skill. The said, other classes could use some tweaking, but sorc is in a good spot right now.

Maybe you should ask yourself if sorc isn't OP but rather a class that is balanced out performing classes that are under-tuned.

ak_pvp · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Can it be 30k. Yep.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

Waffennacht · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

Huh. Here I thought you just had interrupt Conversion

Waffennacht · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Can it be 30k. Yep.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

Casting more than one ability kind of automatically makes it no longer a "spammable"

Joy_Division · August 2017

@davey1107

Yes, it's your estimate. That doesn't make it true. It's not a fact. And your original post makes your sound like an inexperienced player.

davey1107 wrote: »

Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

No they can't. If they are doing this, doing it to you, then you and those 5 other people do not have good builds and are not experienced players. Period. I will grant that a highly skilled mag sorc who knows what they are doing can hold off 2 experienced players running good builds for a while, but eventually the sorc will either run out of resources or get burst down. And it's not like a templar or warden cant do the same thing. If the sorc is better than those two players, they might be able to burst one down and win, but such a scenario is decided by skill, not an OP class. If a good player with a good build should dies when teaming up with another good player against a single opponent, that was because a mistke was made, not because a class is OP.

Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

If you think surge is an A+ skill, you have low standards. All it does is grant major sorcery and a potentially moderate HoT if they hit and if they crit. By saying it grants "major damage," you are either being intentionally disingenuous as it is the exact same spell damage modifier as every other class's major sorcery buff or just don't know the game very well.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage

What exactly are the "hard button" skills in this game? Just about every ability in this game is easy point and click, no aiming, no cooldown, just spam spam spam. Or are you going to tell me a templar has it hard with purifying light and Jesus Beam? Or that the NB AoE don't have to aim goes through block Fear CC takes a high skill level to pull off? Let's not even being to talk about smart healing. This game is Beer and Pretzels; it's not a hardcore in-depth tactical PvP game and was never intended to be as such.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

Cheetahs are bullied by hyenas on the African Serengeti and a lion that is kicked by zerba or gored by a wildebeest might never hunt again. So much for nature's super-predators.

In any event, all class skills pull double and triple duty. My Templar focus gives me armor buffs and returns resources. My purify cleanse my debuffs, heals me, and further amps my healing. My sweeps are AoE damage and heal me. Purifying light is undogable burst damage that heals me. Sunfire damages and gives me 10% crit. OMG nerf templars. Sorcerers are not different in this regard at all. That's classic myopia, nerf them but not me complaining.

*************

Most of the posts on these forums that insist that X class is "ridiculously OP" or is in major need of a nerf originate either from inexperience or ignorance. If you are half as good as you claim to be, then majority of sorcerers you run across in cyrodiil should not be causing you such distress.

I find a well played sorcerer to be a very challenging opponent, however most of the sorcerers I come across are indistinctive from the masses of players in PvP. They are just there, potentially dangerous when I'm outnumbered, but otherwise meh. I do not find a well played sorcerer to be more dangerous than a well played stamplar or a well played NB. These opponents are dangerous not because of their class, but because of their skill level.

When I slot Defensive posture, 90% of the sorcerers in cyrodiil cannot kill me on their own. They are so dependent on crystal frag procs that it completely messes up their burst and half the time they wind up killing themselves. Inexperienced players who do not know the games mechanics come onto these forums asking ZoS to nerf stuff, experienced players who know the game will use the game's mechanics to deal with is threatening from patch to patch. If people cant burst down a solo sorc with 5 others allegedly good players, i'm sorry, they are neither experienced or good.

I do think sorcerers are easier to play than the other classes, but easy does not mean overpowered. It just means that players are more likely to tap their potential and thus give off the impression they are OP to inexperienced players. A good non-sorc will beat an average sorc, so I don't agree they are OP.

**********

The only two things about sorcerers that bother me are stacking harness magicka plus hardened ward and that somehow dark conversion does not follow the same mechanical restrictions as other channels (snared and interruption loses resources). In my estimation Hardened would have to last a little longer and do something else if it were the only sorcerer defense. But I think trying that plus making Dark Conversion work like other channels would end most complaints about sorcs, such that it would be appropriate to re-examine some previous nerfs I found dubious (such as the loss of momentum to streak).

LegacyDM · August 2017

Magsorcs are not OP. Bastion is. Try fighting a sorc in no Cp campaign. They melt. Because a sorc only needs to shield stack all they need to do is pump all their points into bastion. Whereas all us other classes need to diversify our cps into multiple defensive skills. We could all run shield breaker and shattering blows but then we wouldn't be diverse enough to kill other classes.

Morgul667 · August 2017

I seriously seldom die to mag sorcs

This nerf sorc thing is gold though

Lord-Otto · August 2017

I think @Joy_Division just won this forum.

Stamicka · August 2017

The amount of Nerf sorc threads I see is scary... Sorc is not an OP class (in pvp at least) in all honesty it's the most balanced class in my opinion. I think a good way to measure how classes compare to each other is in a 1v1. Everything a sorc can do has a counter. Yes, in open world, sorc is probably the best magic class to play solo because of its mobility, but 1v1 sorc is honestly usually outclassed. Make a sorc and 1v1 with it, you'll see that roots and snares from mageblades, templars, and mag dks will make them extremely difficult to target, your frags will be dodge rolled or blocked so not only will you not cc the target but the majority of your burst is gone, your dawnbreaker can easily miss even if you're close, a meteor can be easily blocked, a curse can be cleansed by a Templar, you'll get targeted by unblockable and undodgeable ccs like maelefic wreath, and templars and DKs can reflect your frags at you. So In short, 1v1 you won't be OP at all, you'll be counterable and balanced, like every class should be.

Vanzen · August 2017

Sorcs are OP in BG, period.

Look at scores and tell me they'r not.

I ve stopped complaining about them, unshelved mine and brought him to BG.

Easiest time ever.

You dont need to be really good, you dont even need BIS gear (so many sets combinations work with sorc). Sorc is the easiest class to perform with in BG.

(Talk about DK ...)

Beardimus · August 2017

@Stamicka the number of threads probably relates to increase in player Pop from Morrowind, I e lots of new PvPers.

To noobs Sorcs seem OP, as they don't get the tactics needed, they are also amazed NB's can 'disappear'

Biro123 · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Can it be 30k. Yep.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

Him, OK then.

Does casting 3 different abilities count as spammable? Nope.

Does it have solid counters? Resource cost poisons, oblivion glyphs, shieldbreaker. In fact, shieldbreaker is probably one of the HARDEST counters in game. And since you give shield sizes that are buffed by cp, I'll add shattering blows too.

Can it be 30k? Yes with 3 shields when you are low health, and run a high mag (so probably low sustain) build. So is it a 'spammable' 30k? Well, on a high mag, low sustain setup - only for a bit. BUT one of those shields needs to be left on for 6 seconds to get the heal, and recasting the others pushes that healing ward to the top, so it takes the hits, again meaning you don't get the heal. So realistically, can't you spam 3 shields ? Or only 2?.
If 2, you're looking at a 20-22k shield on a high mag build. More like 15-17k on honed builds who can sustain it indefinitely.

Don't take this as me saying that I think the shield mechanics are fine.. I'm just doing what I normally do in correcting some exaggerations that those less knowledgeable than yourself read as unqualified fact.
Because there will be people who see your claim and then go away thinking that sorcs can spam 30k hardened wards in cyro, indefinitely... And then they start more 'nerf sorc' threads.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

So is every other skill in the game, until you run out of resources.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Damage is the counter to shields, just as damage is the counter to high health.

Can it.be 30k? Yep.

Afraid this is where we run into a roadblock, @Biro123
You can manage a 30k, battlespirited hardened ward (Sorc's only shield)in CP if you do two of three things:

Max out Bastion. Yep, that's 100 points in to get a 25% boost.
Stack Magicka to 134,000. You read it right one hundred and thirty four thousand.
Become completely out of touch or delusional.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

It's the same arguments with the same lack of proof.

You're not getting outclassed. You're getting outplayed.

SanTii.92 · August 2017

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I think @Joy_Division just won this forum.

He usually does. Sometimes when I'm bored I just open his profile and pick a couple random comments. Yeah, I have an interesting life.

Takes-No-Prisoner · August 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

the number of threads probably relates to increase in player Pop from Morrowind, I e lots of new PvPers.

To noobs Sorcs seem OP, as they don't get the tactics needed, they are also amazed NB's can 'disappear'

Honestly, they came from the Mid-year Mayhem event. That is where these new guys are coming from.

Irylia · August 2017

@davey1107

CyrusArya wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

Their toolbox therefore offers them a meta that is 10-20% more powerful than any other class. Of course they'll still sometimes die. Of course they're screwed if caught without the shields up. Of course some players won't fare well in this setup...but that doesn't mean it isn't OP. They just are, because their max potential is mathematically higher than any other class.

Damn, that was some impressive math right there. Your calculus is impeccable and totally not just gut feelings.

my max potential is mathematically higher because I have to manually and proactively mitigate damage (worse the more people that stack on me) while shuffle users can passively and rng mitigate (scaling vs x players in usefulness) I get that.

Joy_Division wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@leepalmer95

I have vets of every class too, stam and magic. When I wrote this post, my definition of OP is not "invincible" or "invulnerable," but rather that they are slightly more powerful than other classes.

Overload isn't the most amazing skill in the world that will make a poor player invincible...but it does give sorcs an avenue to slotting longer term buffs or skills in a manner than no other class has. So there's a tiny power boost there if used well.

Dark exchange offers mag sorcs their most valuable resources at the cost of a moderately useless one, and at a very good ratio. It creates a resource surplus, generating more than is lost. Again, this doesn't make them invincible, but because their dps output and shields are entirely generated by magicka, the ability to heal and sustain for longer than other classes makes them a little more powerful.

I can go on. The bottom line is that sorcs can be configured to have ridiculously high magic and not pay a price for it, because that magic fuels massive dps, endless heals, and endless shields. Then the developers have thrown multiple skills, gear and CPs that return magic, allowing the cycle to perpetuate for longer.

Their toolbox therefore offers them a meta that is 10-20% more powerful than any other class. Of course they'll still sometimes die. Of course they're screwed if caught without the shields up. Of course some players won't fare well in this setup...but that doesn't mean it isn't OP. They just are, because their max potential is mathematically higher than any other class.

Please do. I am sure many people who are actually interested in a discussion would just love to know the methodology how you arrived to the conclusion that sorcs are 10-20% more powerful than any other class. Because all that's here is gut-feeling and most of it specious.

Mag sorc is mathematically more powerful
"It is known"

Really want these players to enter cyro on a sorc and not in a Zerg, but solo or small group and tell me how easy it is to mitigate while also trying to hit the miat using roly poly.

Irylia · August 2017

LegacyDM wrote: »

Magsorcs are not OP. Bastion is. Try fighting a sorc in no Cp campaign. They melt. Because a sorc only needs to shield stack all they need to do is pump all their points into bastion. Whereas all us other classes need to diversify our cps into multiple defensive skills. We could all run shield breaker and shattering blows but then we wouldn't be diverse enough to kill other classes.

You actually mitigate more damage. Y putting 22% into iron clad 9% hardy & elem defender and 1k pen than you do by putting 100 into bastion
25% stronger ward isnt amping wards as much as you think.

Consider this
In no cp I have 30-31kmag back bar with a simple set up using 2 max mag bonuses and my ward is 7.3k

Put me in cp and now I have 36k mag
Give me 25% bastion and now my ward is 10.272

With 16% bastion and the same mag my ward becomes 9.748 for 40 points. The remaining 60 are best used in ironclad to give me and my wards 20% dmg mit.

In short I could drop bastion by 10% and put all of that into mitigation and effectively make my ward "bigger"

Big shields may be big but that doesn't mean they can take many hits

Takes-No-Prisoner · August 2017

Irylia wrote: »

Really want these players to enter cyro on a sorc and not in a Zerg, but solo or small group and tell me how easy it is to mitigate while also trying to hit the miat using roly poly.

-

ak_pvp · August 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

So is every other skill in the game, until you run out of resources.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Damage is the counter to shields, just as damage is the counter to high health.

Can it.be 30k? Yep.

Afraid this is where we run into a roadblock, @Biro123
You can manage a 30k, battlespirited hardened ward (Sorc's only shield)in CP if you do two of three things:
Max out Bastion. Yep, that's 100 points in to get a 25% boost.

Stack Magicka to 134,000. You read it right one hundred and thirty four thousand.

Become completely out of touch or delusional.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

It's the same arguments with the same lack of proof.

You're not getting outclassed. You're getting outplayed.

Wow you are ignorant and cocky aren't you, or should I say out of touch and delusional. I never said only hardened ward. You can reach 30k with stacking very easily.

I am not comparing shields to other skills, I am comparing them to other defenses. No, not every other defense is as mindlessly spammable as shields are. Heals often do less at high health, obviously can't go above your own health so less reason to spam, and can be defiled to make them less effective. Blocking, sprinting, mist and rolling stops regen, streak/roll have cost increases. Cloak doesn't, but you can't pull someone out of a shield can you?

"Damage is the counter to shields" that might be the most idiotic statement I have ever seen. Last I checked its hard to burn 30k of shields before someone reups. OK, so to counter tanks, just damage them, exploiters? Damage them? Zergs? Damage them. Shield breaker is probably the only actual (specific for shields) counter, but in other circumstances its useless. A shield defile, or a maj/min system is necessary.

Waffennacht · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

So is every other skill in the game, until you run out of resources.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Damage is the counter to shields, just as damage is the counter to high health.

Can it.be 30k? Yep.

Afraid this is where we run into a roadblock, @Biro123
You can manage a 30k, battlespirited hardened ward (Sorc's only shield)in CP if you do two of three things:
Max out Bastion. Yep, that's 100 points in to get a 25% boost.

Stack Magicka to 134,000. You read it right one hundred and thirty four thousand.

Become completely out of touch or delusional.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

It's the same arguments with the same lack of proof.

You're not getting outclassed. You're getting outplayed.

Wow you are ignorant and cocky aren't you, or should I say out of touch and delusional. I never said only hardened ward. You can reach 30k with stacking very easily.

I am not comparing shields to other skills, I am comparing them to other defenses. No, not every other defense is as mindlessly spammable as shields are. Heals often do less at high health, obviously can't go above your own health so less reason to spam, and can be defiled to make them less effective. Blocking, sprinting, mist and rolling stops regen, streak/roll have cost increases. Cloak doesn't, but you can't pull someone out of a shield can you?

"Damage is the counter to shields" that might be the most idiotic statement I have ever seen. Last I checked its hard to burn 30k of shields before someone reups. OK, so to counter tanks, just damage them, exploiters? Damage them? Zergs? Damage them. Shield breaker is probably the only actual (specific for shields) counter, but in other circumstances its useless. A shield defile, or a maj/min system is necessary.

Hard CC after a sec or two. If shields drop it's gg. Unless your damage output is too low to kill with one combo

Zer0oo · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

So is every other skill in the game, until you run out of resources.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Damage is the counter to shields, just as damage is the counter to high health.

Can it.be 30k? Yep.

Afraid this is where we run into a roadblock, @Biro123
You can manage a 30k, battlespirited hardened ward (Sorc's only shield)in CP if you do two of three things:
Max out Bastion. Yep, that's 100 points in to get a 25% boost.

Stack Magicka to 134,000. You read it right one hundred and thirty four thousand.

Become completely out of touch or delusional.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

It's the same arguments with the same lack of proof.

You're not getting outclassed. You're getting outplayed.

Wow you are ignorant and cocky aren't you, or should I say out of touch and delusional. I never said only hardened ward. You can reach 30k with stacking very easily.

I am not comparing shields to other skills, I am comparing them to other defenses. No, not every other defense is as mindlessly spammable as shields are. Heals often do less at high health, obviously can't go above your own health so less reason to spam, and can be defiled to make them less effective. Blocking, sprinting, mist and rolling stops regen, streak/roll have cost increases. Cloak doesn't, but you can't pull someone out of a shield can you?

"Damage is the counter to shields" that might be the most idiotic statement I have ever seen. Last I checked its hard to burn 30k of shields before someone reups. OK, so to counter tanks, just damage them, exploiters? Damage them? Zergs? Damage them. Shield breaker is probably the only actual (specific for shields) counter, but in other circumstances its useless. A shield defile, or a maj/min system is necessary.

What exactly is the point of a build spamming those shields? (Don't think 30k spammable shields are realistic but just for the sake of argument assume they are true) Every time you use a shield you don't do any damage, every shield last 6 sec so to keep up the shields if you need to bar swap you have a 2 sec time window to attack don't think anyone will die from 2 attacks and shields alone will cost you ~11k (~15.5 with curse and fp)magica. If you factor in that the opponent can cc you you don't have any time to attack if you want to keep all 3 shields up. At that point i think it is impossible to die to that sorc.

Also a low damage build will not kill a sorc that is probable meant with statement: " Damage is the counter to shields"
But if you play a higher damage build you can burst down the shield easy and the sorc has to play defensive which means he doesn't attack and wastes a lot of magica to spam shields.

ak_pvp · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@CyrusArya @Joy_Division

The 10-20% is an estimate based on my theories of what makes sorcs OP, which I state as a theory in my original post and say that we can't measure unless we had access to ZOS's internal numbers. To be fair, based on comments made on ESO Live about class balance, they seem aware that sorcs over perform in pvp. Their discussion about that insinuated that they were concerned that needing sorcs in pvp would hurt them in pve where they're better balanced, and also that they don't want to make changes that hurt the bottom 80% of players just to fix the 20% who take advantage of the situation.

A hard number of how over powered they are in pvp would be difficult to quantify scientifically...there are too many factors in play. However, one method of proving my case might be diving into a specific skill and questioning that math, which is easier to quantify.

For example, Dark Conversion. For stats I will use Alcast's latest Wrath build, found at Alcasthq.com, so we can all look at the same numbers. The build features ~43k max magic and ~13k max stam. 2800 mag recovery and 750 for stam. Dark Con costs 2400 stam and returns 8,000 health and 4600 magic.

If we presume a 30 second battle, the sorcs stam recovery would produce 750 every 2 seconds, or 11,250 added to their bank of 13k. Therefore, they can pretty easily cast Dark Con as part of a 5 second rotation. Six procs in 30 seconds cost 15k stam. They don't need the stam for dodging or blocking since the shields take care of that, but they have a healthy reserve regardless.

These six procs produce 27,600 magic and 48k health. So this produces pertinent questions:

1. How do similar abilities compare? If we consider resource returning mechanisms, I can't think of anything in the game that is this strong. Potions return 8k/8k every 45 seconds. Proc sets that return magic or stam are capped at like 9k once per minute. I know the peanut gallery will chime in with reasons why Dark Con isn't endlessly powerful...and it isn't. It's simply more powerful than other abilities that return a fighting resource.

(And, btw, @ZOS_GinaBruno - ask Eric Wroebel if Dark Con is so fair, why can't nightblades get an ability that costs 2400 magic in exchange for 8k health and 4.5k stamina, instead of the stupid leeching strikes mechanism).

2. Why is this problematic? Dark Con isn't a problem on its own. The problem arises when we consider what it enables. It's this massive return of magic that allows sorcs to maintain one or two very strong shields. The meta rotation involves throwing up shields that wipe out incoming attacks, then dark Con to restore that magic and heal anything that gets through.

I think the bottom line is that update 14 brought this concept of resource scarcity into the game that reduced the tankiness of everyone. EXCEPT SORCS. Lol. If you read the dev notes, Vigor had this snide little comment, "we felt it was too powerful to make it easy to keep up all the time." Yeah...the 3k stam cost ability returning 10k health over 5 seconds was too powerful, but not the many, many mechanisms sorcs have to return magic and stack defense.

We can agree to disagree, but objectively, scientifically and rationally you're both totally wrong.

I still don't think that the 10/20% makes sense. At all, so throwing that around is fake news.

If shields are taken care of, sorcs are more in line. Anyone who plays BGs or noCP can see the lack of spammable 30k defences with no counter, really helps.

A few things I'd change otherwise that wouldn't break the class is that streak shouldn't go though roots, and interrupting conversion should take away the resources. I feel like these two lack early counters. (The late counters: Being resource heavy don't actually kick in until its too late.)

Spammable 30k defences with no counter is kind of fake news too.

In Cp campaign.

Is the shield spammable. Yes.

Does it have solid counters. No.

Can it be 30k. Yep.

The only real counter is oblivion damage... Which always deals same damage. Nothing like a shield cost increase, shield defile, shield regen stop, etc.

That is the only reason I would consider "OP. " other things are just slightly silly mechanics. The burst+mobility is good.

Him, OK then.

Does casting 3 different abilities count as spammable? Nope.

Does it have solid counters? Resource cost poisons, oblivion glyphs, shieldbreaker. In fact, shieldbreaker is probably one of the HARDEST counters in game. And since you give shield sizes that are buffed by cp, I'll add shattering blows too.

Can it be 30k? Yes with 3 shields when you are low health, and run a high mag (so probably low sustain) build. So is it a 'spammable' 30k? Well, on a high mag, low sustain setup - only for a bit. BUT one of those shields needs to be left on for 6 seconds to get the heal, and recasting the others pushes that healing ward to the top, so it takes the hits, again meaning you don't get the heal. So realistically, can't you spam 3 shields ? Or only 2?.
If 2, you're looking at a 20-22k shield on a high mag build. More like 15-17k on honed builds who can sustain it indefinitely.

Don't take this as me saying that I think the shield mechanics are fine.. I'm just doing what I normally do in correcting some exaggerations that those less knowledgeable than yourself read as unqualified fact.
Because there will be people who see your claim and then go away thinking that sorcs can spam 30k hardened wards in cyro, indefinitely... And then they start more 'nerf sorc' threads.

ftr, I never said hardened ward only. 30K is pretty easily achieved and decently sustainable even at high health with Necro+amber (Necro nerf may have slightly changed this,) People using pets to keep the heat off a little and dark convert a little when low.

"Does casting 3 different abilities count as spammable? Nope." If I spam DB and embers, its spamming heals right? Same with shields

And I wouldn't consider the oblivion and resource as a direct counter, unlike defile to heals. Resource and oblivion affect everyone, and I wouldn't be surprised if resource poisons are nerfed soon. I'll give you shieldbreaker, and a maybe on shattering blows, but the way it works is awful. It just adds damage, which isn't imo a proper counter to the shield.It should instead be like the siphoner, reducing effectiveness of the shield.

Lexxypwns · August 2017

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

However, as you progress as a pvp player you will be always working towards these goals in a fight if your initial burst doesn't kill. As a result killing shieldstacking builds becomes second nature to good pvp'ers.

This is the reason why numerous experienced players are here with math and facts telling you sorc isn't strong while other players, some experienced some not, are in here with just their gut feeling. This is also the reason most good PVPers don't run shield stack builds, sorc or otherwise

ak_pvp · August 2017

Righty, it appears I have ruffled a few sorc's feathers in that they many have been searching for technicalities in what I am saying. Its not like I can't kill a sorc, or am consistently outplayed, as the waah l2p police say. Its that most of my fights on my DK/Templar with a sorc end in a stalemate against a much more damaging/mobile opponent because they can tank as well as me.

The main issue is: Sorcs shouldn't be allowed to be this tanky without sacrificing something. The NB is an example of what I think is a well balanced class, good damage and movability, but they have to sacrifice tankiness, but still have a worth while defense.

Sorcs however a getting too big for their boots. We all know the issue is shields, and giving it similar counters to other old offenders, (Roll spam/permablock) would mean more would have to be invested in it for the same level of results.

Ragnaroek93 · August 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Killing shield stacking builds is the gateway to becoming a good pvp'er, they require you to monitor your resources, drain their resources, maintain pressure, and time burst.

I'm glad that it is so easy to run someone with Harness Magicka out magicka. KappaClaus.