Magsorc ridiculously OP

elfantasmo

We've all been there op back in the day, time and time again people retort the phrase git gud. This is the exacerbated way of saying come on guys all you need to do is learn the mechanics you can get there. I'll help you!!!! Simply because the latter has been uttered many many many too many timesand ppl are tired. If you or anyone here is admitting to being one shot or even one 'bursted' by a mediocre/bad sorc and you weren't picking up a stinkhorn naked, you have no business starting any nerf posts. Now if ppls cp AND alliance rank were linked to their forum profile, this ish would be a whole lot easier... just saying. P.s monster is out blame the unplanned outage. Peace.

Derra

davey1107 wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

Surge heals: Surge offers a flat rate heal when you deal critical damage, as often as once per second. I cited a range because its performance will vary. Current buildmaster sorc builds have a 45-50% crit rating. My range estimates a crit every 1-3 seconds. Is this realistic in pvp? Sure, especially we remember that many attacks do multiple sets of damage that can each crit. Crushing shock, for example, deals three hits per proc, offering an 87.5% chance that one of the three will be a crit with a 50% rating. These heals also work in conjunction with shields...sorcs don't need a constant incoming heal, they just need to restore health behind the shields.

Regardless, the point isn't what the actual battle tested results are, it's how this feature compares to other major brutality/sorcery skills. It offers an advanatage that is so far out of line with the others that there's little question it outperforms them.

To put it quite simple: Surge is so bad that a considerable number of sorcs runs entropy to gain major sorcery or use potions to gain major sorcery.

It´s ahead of DKs major sorc buff and that´s about it.

Stop trying to make surge look like some god tier major sorcerey skill. It´s worse than entropy (on a sorcerer that is). It would be better than entropy on any other class no questions asked. But that´s why it´s only accessible on sorc.

You can´t just look at a skill and think: That is so useful if only my DK had XY. You have to put it in the "context" of skills a sorc can access and use it with. It would be better than any other source of major sorcery on any other class. But it´s on sorc and with sorcs skillset in pvp it´s most of the time inferior to entropy.
In practice (and it IS important what the battletested results are - not what someone who looks at a spreadsheet with numbers thinks) surge heals little more than entropy on a typical sorc build but it costs about 3.5 times as much magica while only lasting 50% longer, deals no dmg and does not provide easy access to empower.

maxlacab16_ESO

ak_pvp wrote: »

Eh, I don't want a full nerf. Only tone down shields ...

Guess you weren't here for the last shield nerf?
What, just a few months ago?
Half the duration, and less HPs?
You want that nerfed again?

Roll a Sorc and L2P before you start a thread like this!

mook-eb16_ESO

how to kill a sorc : some suggestions.
1 use stam resource poisons, hard cc to burn stam; burnt stam is a killer for a sorc
2 use oblivion damage enchants, sets.
3 use maits pvp alerts to dodge frags.
4 use good tactics (line of sight) stealth away, wait for the guard to come down.
5 roll a sorc, learn how to play it to know its weaknesses

maxlacab16_ESO

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you cut everything on sorcerer damage in half, it would be inline with the other classes.
that's just the truth and it has been that way since 2013 beta.
anyone who aurgues against that is either trying to defend sorcerers because they play one or they just don't PvP.
not joking, and yes i'm serious.
this is not news and has been spoken of repeatedly since 2013.

LOL

Biro123

Derra wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL

Surge heals: Surge offers a flat rate heal when you deal critical damage, as often as once per second. I cited a range because its performance will vary. Current buildmaster sorc builds have a 45-50% crit rating. My range estimates a crit every 1-3 seconds. Is this realistic in pvp? Sure, especially we remember that many attacks do multiple sets of damage that can each crit. Crushing shock, for example, deals three hits per proc, offering an 87.5% chance that one of the three will be a crit with a 50% rating. These heals also work in conjunction with shields...sorcs don't need a constant incoming heal, they just need to restore health behind the shields.

Regardless, the point isn't what the actual battle tested results are, it's how this feature compares to other major brutality/sorcery skills. It offers an advanatage that is so far out of line with the others that there's little question it outperforms them.

To put it quite simple: Surge is so bad that a considerable number of sorcs runs entropy to gain major sorcery or use potions to gain major sorcery.

It´s ahead of DKs major sorc buff and that´s about it.

Stop trying to make surge look like some god tier major sorcerey skill. It´s worse than entropy (on a sorcerer that is). It would be better than entropy on any other class no questions asked. But that´s why it´s only accessible on sorc.

You can´t just look at a skill and think: That is so useful if only my DK had XY. You have to put it in the "context" of skills a sorc can access and use it with. It would be better than any other source of major sorcery on any other class. But it´s on sorc and with sorcs skillset in pvp it´s most of the time inferior to entropy.
In practice (and it IS important what the battletested results are - not what someone who looks at a spreadsheet with numbers thinks) surge heals little more than entropy on a typical sorc build but it costs about 3.5 times as much magica while only lasting 50% longer, deals no dmg and does not provide easy access to empower.

And to add to that, one of the main things that makes it bad is the fact that it only heals when you crit. Now since sorcs in PvP mostly don't have any dots (except perhaps degeneration which would be instead of surge anyway), it means having to actively attack to benefit from thw chance of a heal.

And as we all know, when you're happily spamming attacks, its because you don't really need healing. And when you do need those heals, well, you're too busy shielding and/or escaping to attack anywhere near constantly enough to get any heals.

So yeah, surge, the amazing skill that only heals when you don't need it.

Gothren

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

how to kill a sorc : some suggestions.
1 use stam resource poisons, hard cc to burn stam; burnt stam is a killer for a sorc

that is only affected by stamina cost only abilities. it will do nothing except if they are using dark exchange.

Takes-No-Prisoner

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

how to kill a sorc : some suggestions.
1 use stam resource poisons, hard cc to burn stam; burnt stam is a killer for a sorc

I'd prefer this poison



A couple of months ago, I sold a stack of this to a fellow looking for some for PvP. I recommended these.

10 minutes later, he PMed me back expressing his gratitude with how potent this poison was.

Derra

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

how to kill a sorc : some suggestions.
1 use stam resource poisons, hard cc to burn stam; burnt stam is a killer for a sorc

I'd prefer this poison



A couple of months ago, I sold a stack of this to a fellow looking for some for PvP. I recommended these.

10 minutes later, he PMed me back expressing his gratitude with how potent this poison was.

This is a bugged screenshot. The effects hold for barely 3s all unless you equip a specific set.

Takes-No-Prisoner

Derra wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

mook-eb16_ESO wrote: »

how to kill a sorc : some suggestions.
1 use stam resource poisons, hard cc to burn stam; burnt stam is a killer for a sorc

I'd prefer this poison



A couple of months ago, I sold a stack of this to a fellow looking for some for PvP. I recommended these.

10 minutes later, he PMed me back expressing his gratitude with how potent this poison was.

This is a bugged screenshot. The effects hold for barely 3s all unless you equip a specific set.

I thought something was off. I can never find the right screenshot for poisons.

a1i3nz

So many people cry about how without hardened the way it is works sorcs would be insta killed in light and to that I say boo *** hoo. Other classes have to make trade offs such as wearing heavy to be tanky so why not sorcs?

Yall have always ALWAYS had it easy mode I don't even consider sorcs skilled players compared to other classes. You shield up and point your cursor and just click and kill its a joke. I just stealth away from all you guys.

While I'm here BUFF MOTHER [snip] TEMPLARS TO PRE BLAZING SPEAR NERF, WHY DO YOU HATE THEM SO MUCH?!?! I don't want to be a healer or a dark flare spammer all I do is bomb anymore that's how bad pvp is.

[Edited to remove profanity]

davey1107

@derra I wouldn't argue that entropy isn't a good skill. It can bring a lot to the table too...and like all the other abilities I describe, it overly multitasks for the user. It provides damage and heals, then throws in a massive max health buff.

Whether a sorc wants to use it for major or stick to surge is moot...they're both A+ skills that outperform most any source of 20% damage buffs, and they both far outperform sources of major brutality. If we consider Rally as the best source of major brutality, then over 15 seconds you get:

Entropy: 6500 damage, 6400 health, +8% max health, major
Rally: 4900 health, major

The question is, why is entropy set to offer so dang much? None of its four features are in themselves outlandishly powerful, but as a whole the ability brings more to the slot than most other abilities in the game, the same way that surge brings multiple features onto a single slot.

This goes back to my core argument: it's not that the sorc skills (and common skills they have access to) are in themselves OP, it's that the skills throw in too many perks, so that by the time you add up all of these little benefits the class is as a whole over powered.

Certainly there are other skills amongst other classes in need of a nerf, but mag sorcs are in the need of a large scale fine-tuning that completely rebalances the class.

Biro123

Entropy health buff is pretty pointless unless you double-bar it..
Burst heals > heals over time

Surge <> an A+ skill.. Well, for stamsorc it is due to the synergy with hurricane (but even then, the burst heal from rally is more useful in cyro) - not for mag though. I'd put it as a D+.. Goes on my overload bar IF i'm running overload, and IF I have space.. Usually I just use the Cyro vendor pots for major sorcery and free up the slot for something important..

ForsakenSin

Yes magica Sorc so op..... , got killed in 4 sec with crit rush and double Dizzying Swing dealing 13k each! all at the same time , instant death and that was with the shield as well no time to do anything

so please do tell me how sorc are op

waitwhat

You know you've won against a sorc when they streak away at full health.

The sorc situation will sort itself out in time, as the stamblade situation did before it. If not, then their accomplishments will diminish as people become less impressed. Already I'm starting to hear "oh, but you're a sorc" in guild chat convos.

Some constructive things to help out nightblades that really hate sorcs:

1) Slot sword and board on your back bar, just for Absorb Magic. This is a big heal from any spell projectile cast at you. This one skill alone largely solved my sorc problem (Frag me again plz. It'll totally work this time I promise.)
2) Slot guard: Either morph. This might seem nuts, but guard sends it's damage to you as physical damage, after going through the bonded player's mitigation. Big numbers become quite small, and either the healing or the damage bonus will help your new best friend kill/wear down/chase off the sorc more easily.
3) Use Crippling Grasp for when the sorc streaks: It's a cheap, ranged, repeatable CC, that slows them down and gives you major expedition to catch up. The CC doesn't last very long, but it introduces crucial delays between each streak cast.
4) Accept that it's ok for them to get away. One or three sorcs, who streak away when the fight turns against them, are not significant for Campaign Score Evaluation. They're not helping their alliance, and not earning that much AP in today's Cyrodiil. It's an ego game with them, which doesn't matter at the end of the campaign.
5) Reactive is a great set to counter sorcs, among other things, since they have so many CCs.
6) Shacklebreaker isn't just for sorcs, either. Since becoming one with the Hist I now run a stamblade tank in Cyrodiil. Paring that with reactive won't kill anyone, and it won't make great videos, but it helps you keep all your friends alive.

Also, if it's any consolation: what makes a good sorc in PvP can often be a death knell if endgame group PvE. Frags are not, obviously, a good DoT, and it turns out, in endgame trials, that no, you can't ward through that. When they complain about not having enough stamina, tell them you walked out of the AoE to preserve your stam pool.

grannas211

Nerf sorc threads. Best meme of these forums.

Derra

davey1107 wrote: »

@derra I wouldn't argue that entropy isn't a good skill. It can bring a lot to the table too...and like all the other abilities I describe, it overly multitasks for the user. It provides damage and heals, then throws in a massive max health buff.

Whether a sorc wants to use it for major or stick to surge is moot...they're both A+ skills that outperform most any source of 20% damage buffs, and they both far outperform sources of major brutality. If we consider Rally as the best source of major brutality, then over 15 seconds you get:

Entropy: 6500 damage, 6400 health, +8% max health, major
Rally: 4900 health, major

The question is, why is entropy set to offer so dang much? None of its four features are in themselves outlandishly powerful, but as a whole the ability brings more to the slot than most other abilities in the game, the same way that surge brings multiple features onto a single slot.

This goes back to my core argument: it's not that the sorc skills (and common skills they have access to) are in themselves OP, it's that the skills throw in too many perks, so that by the time you add up all of these little benefits the class is as a whole over powered.

Certainly there are other skills amongst other classes in need of a nerf, but mag sorcs are in the need of a large scale fine-tuning that completely rebalances the class.

Ok i´ll be honest with you.

The numbers you´re pulling from whereever are just so rediculously made up in favor of your undeniable "magica is OP" bias it´s not even funny.
After 14s rally on a build with 30k stam and 2400 weapondmg heals for 6k + an additional 6k as burstheal.
Entropy deals 6500 dmg and heals for 3x 1500 with 30k magica 2400 spelldmg while providing additional buffs (but also needs a target and the dmg portion aswell as the corresponding heal can be dodged).

That means you get 12k heal for rally in combination of HOT and burstheal compared to 6.5k dmg 4.5k heal + empower with entropy in the same timeframe if you choose to not make up numbers but instead compare those skills with similar stats.

Rally is easily the best source of a major buff available (i´d use it any day of the week if it was magica based on any of my magica chars that being NB, Sorc and DK).

Countcalorie

magsorc op.

Micah_Bayer

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

4k per shield is cheap 3 shields you have to spam constantly 4 times three = 12. 12k Magicka for shields you spam every 6 seconds. L2p

Joy_Division

Surge an A+ skill? Did the OP read a 1.5 description on an old website?

Merlin13KAGL

You read it right, @JoyDivsion .

After he's done here, OP is going to start a thread about Devouring Swarm next. I hear it heals for about 100k over 4 seconds, at least according to OP math.

Takes-No-Prisoner

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

4per shield is cheap 3 shields you have to spam constantly 4 times three = 12. 12k Magicka for shields you spam every 6 seconds. L2p

That's not including any other button that isn't a shield. A lot of folks tend to forget magic is expensive to cast. Which is why it carries quite a few good benefits compared to staminas.

Ragnaroek93

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

4k per shield is cheap 3 shields you have to spam constantly 4 times three = 12. 12k Magicka for shields you spam every 6 seconds. L2p

You don't need to cast Healing Ward every 6 seconds, only if you are low health and Harness Magicka turns sustain into easymode as soon as you get hit by magicka abilities (hell, even Shadow Image or Volatile Armor dot restores magicka). I can't take anyone serious who doesn't see issues in shieldstacking (nor can I take anybody serious who wants to overnerf the class completely by "cutting everything from sorc into half"). Best approach would probably be to remove shieldstacking from the game or reworking that light armor skill.

Biro123

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

4k per shield is cheap 3 shields you have to spam constantly 4 times three = 12. 12k Magicka for shields you spam every 6 seconds. L2p

You don't need to cast Healing Ward every 6 seconds, only if you are low health and Harness Magicka turns sustain into easymode as soon as you get hit by magicka abilities (hell, even Shadow Image or Volatile Armor dot restores magicka). I can't take anyone serious who doesn't see issues in shieldstacking (nor can I take anybody serious who wants to overnerf the class completely by "cutting everything from sorc into half"). Best approach would probably be to remove shieldstacking from the game or reworking that light armor skill.

Harness is an odd one though. You take risks to rely on it for sustain.. big risks. Come up against a stam-only player 1v1 and if you can't sustain without harness - you're toast.

Play in many vs many, but don't get targeted (but still have to shield up just in case) - you can easily run dry.

The alternative is to run enough sustain so you don't need what harness gives... but then, it doesn't really benefit you anymore.. (unless poisoned)..

Removing stacking raises a whole bunch of questions though, about what happens with the small shields you can get from, say a friendly DK casting igneous, certain gear sets, the shield glyph etc.. I think all those 8Should* be additive with your shield.

Honestly though, I don't think removing stacking is the answer. I think the whole shield mechanics need some kind of re-work to make them more balanced in both solo and outnumbered situations. I mean, I think that for a magsorc to be tanky, shield shouldn't be enough on its own - but it should be able to work well in conjunction with other defences.. (heavy armour/heals/blocking etc.).. I mean, idk, some totally imperfect idea's I've had floating around could include stuff like changing hardened to a 'shield over time' - ie give a longer duration, but let it give you x shield every second (each having a 1-second duration).. So you would always take damage over that amount and need further mitigation/heals to handle it..
Or instead maybe make hardened only absorb maybe the non-crit part of the hit - with crits getting through (so impen becomes important).... ie. Give Hardened/Harness different mechanics that can still be a benefit when combined - but when not combined can still synergise with other defences - and are not too strong 1v1 and not too weak xv1..

A problem is pets though. Sorcs best heals come from pets - and heals synergise great with mitigation builds (heavy armour/blocking) - but the only way to keep those pets alive is with shields.. and to do that you need a lot of mag/mag-regen which means you can't build to block/hvy armour too (and the fact that your shielded makes that heavy armour/blocking pointless) - I've tried it.... If only you could get those heals WITHOUT having to run shields..

Idk what the answer is - but a straight nerf isn't it.

Irylia

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.

The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.

The other issues are:

Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.

The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).

How can you complain about the second det of curse when most sorcs are putting it up again instantly after the first proc. It doesn't make sense to wait unless seriously pressured and/or low mag.

CyrusArya

Irylia wrote: »

How can you complain about the second det of curse when most sorcs are putting it up again instantly after the first proc. It doesn't make sense to wait unless seriously pressured and/or low mag.

If you knew who that player is behind his anonymous forum handle, it would make all the sense in the world.

Hint: its an AD Xv1 ganker.

Takes-No-Prisoner

Biro123 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

4k per shield is cheap 3 shields you have to spam constantly 4 times three = 12. 12k Magicka for shields you spam every 6 seconds. L2p

You don't need to cast Healing Ward every 6 seconds, only if you are low health and Harness Magicka turns sustain into easymode as soon as you get hit by magicka abilities (hell, even Shadow Image or Volatile Armor dot restores magicka). I can't take anyone serious who doesn't see issues in shieldstacking (nor can I take anybody serious who wants to overnerf the class completely by "cutting everything from sorc into half"). Best approach would probably be to remove shieldstacking from the game or reworking that light armor skill.

Harness is an odd one though. You take risks to rely on it for sustain.. big risks. Come up against a stam-only player 1v1 and if you can't sustain without harness - you're toast.

Play in many vs many, but don't get targeted (but still have to shield up just in case) - you can easily run dry.

The alternative is to run enough sustain so you don't need what harness gives... but then, it doesn't really benefit you anymore.. (unless poisoned)..

Removing stacking raises a whole bunch of questions though, about what happens with the small shields you can get from, say a friendly DK casting igneous, certain gear sets, the shield glyph etc.. I think all those 8Should* be additive with your shield.

Honestly though, I don't think removing stacking is the answer. I think the whole shield mechanics need some kind of re-work to make them more balanced in both solo and outnumbered situations. I mean, I think that for a magsorc to be tanky, shield shouldn't be enough on its own - but it should be able to work well in conjunction with other defences.. (heavy armour/heals/blocking etc.).. I mean, idk, some totally imperfect idea's I've had floating around could include stuff like changing hardened to a 'shield over time' - ie give a longer duration, but let it give you x shield every second (each having a 1-second duration).. So you would always take damage over that amount and need further mitigation/heals to handle it..
Or instead maybe make hardened only absorb maybe the non-crit part of the hit - with crits getting through (so impen becomes important).... ie. Give Hardened/Harness different mechanics that can still be a benefit when combined - but when not combined can still synergise with other defences - and are not too strong 1v1 and not too weak xv1..

A problem is pets though. Sorcs best heals come from pets - and heals synergise great with mitigation builds (heavy armour/blocking) - but the only way to keep those pets alive is with shields.. and to do that you need a lot of mag/mag-regen which means you can't build to block/hvy armour too (and the fact that your shielded makes that heavy armour/blocking pointless) - I've tried it.... If only you could get those heals WITHOUT having to run shields..

Idk what the answer is - but a straight nerf isn't it.

I agree harness needs to be adjusted. But how is it possible to adjust it without totally screwing over the LA wearing Magic Builds out there, that are not Sorcs?

I also don't think the skill does enough against stamina builds like you mentioned. It gives the user enough tools to work with when there are magic attacks hitting that shield, but once its a physical attacker, all it really does is just be a generic expensive shield at that point. Then we're playing a tricky game of keeping the stamina user right where the magic user wants him.

Durham

I think much of the issue with this class is when upper tier players (outlyers) get a hold of this class it becomes crazy good ... Most rank an file sorcs struggle imo...

What do you want your best player playing in your group?

Sorc is my number 1 pic ... A good Temp healer number 2.... A truly good pvp sorc is rare but very visiable on the battlefield...

A great Sorc is just plain nasty compared to all other classes that are just as good.....

Derra

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

4k per shield is cheap 3 shields you have to spam constantly 4 times three = 12. 12k Magicka for shields you spam every 6 seconds. L2p

You don't need to cast Healing Ward every 6 seconds, only if you are low health and Harness Magicka turns sustain into easymode as soon as you get hit by magicka abilities (hell, even Shadow Image or Volatile Armor dot restores magicka). I can't take anyone serious who doesn't see issues in shieldstacking (nor can I take anybody serious who wants to overnerf the class completely by "cutting everything from sorc into half"). Best approach would probably be to remove shieldstacking from the game or reworking that light armor skill.

Harness is an odd one though. You take risks to rely on it for sustain.. big risks. Come up against a stam-only player 1v1 and if you can't sustain without harness - you're toast.

Play in many vs many, but don't get targeted (but still have to shield up just in case) - you can easily run dry.

The alternative is to run enough sustain so you don't need what harness gives... but then, it doesn't really benefit you anymore.. (unless poisoned)..

Removing stacking raises a whole bunch of questions though, about what happens with the small shields you can get from, say a friendly DK casting igneous, certain gear sets, the shield glyph etc.. I think all those 8Should* be additive with your shield.

Honestly though, I don't think removing stacking is the answer. I think the whole shield mechanics need some kind of re-work to make them more balanced in both solo and outnumbered situations. I mean, I think that for a magsorc to be tanky, shield shouldn't be enough on its own - but it should be able to work well in conjunction with other defences.. (heavy armour/heals/blocking etc.).. I mean, idk, some totally imperfect idea's I've had floating around could include stuff like changing hardened to a 'shield over time' - ie give a longer duration, but let it give you x shield every second (each having a 1-second duration).. So you would always take damage over that amount and need further mitigation/heals to handle it..
Or instead maybe make hardened only absorb maybe the non-crit part of the hit - with crits getting through (so impen becomes important).... ie. Give Hardened/Harness different mechanics that can still be a benefit when combined - but when not combined can still synergise with other defences - and are not too strong 1v1 and not too weak xv1..

A problem is pets though. Sorcs best heals come from pets - and heals synergise great with mitigation builds (heavy armour/blocking) - but the only way to keep those pets alive is with shields.. and to do that you need a lot of mag/mag-regen which means you can't build to block/hvy armour too (and the fact that your shielded makes that heavy armour/blocking pointless) - I've tried it.... If only you could get those heals WITHOUT having to run shields..

Idk what the answer is - but a straight nerf isn't it.

I agree harness needs to be adjusted. But how is it possible to adjust it without totally screwing over the LA wearing Magic Builds out there, that are not Sorcs?

I also don't think the skill does enough against stamina builds like you mentioned. It gives the user enough tools to work with when there are magic attacks hitting that shield, but once its a physical attacker, all it really does is just be a generic expensive shield at that point. Then we're playing a tricky game of keeping the stamina user right where the magic user wants him.

Simple: Make harness replace hardened ward and vice versa until someone at zos figues out a way to adress the skill properly for all classes.

Killset

Baconlad wrote: »

Think sorcs are OP? Fek...try fighting a mag warden built similarly. They only use two shields, the damage is way higher, which was intended as they dont have a magic execute. I struggle bus HARD on 50k magic wardens. Fighting one feels like fighting a stamblade procblade in light armor without shields.

Sorcs are easy AF though. Wait for their shield to go down and burst em. I play magplar. And i can confirm here, unless the sorc is using overload one shot set up, magplar outburst them.

I normally let them go balls to the walls damage on me, let them think they have the upper hand, i cast resto ult, flip on them and if they are unshielded, my dark flare unstable core, javelin combo will destroy them. Even if they manage to live through the burst with 20% health, an unstable core in radiant oppression will ensure that theyr shields that are being frantically casted will go down then boom unstable drops them.

Shields are impossible for most toons to burst through, they might be overperforming, but i feel like they are fine. Here would be a good way to deal with them. Make them scale differently. Currebtly they scale only from magic. Hiw about scaling less with magic and more from spell damage, that way other classes could use them as well for a change, rather just classes that can use necropotence. Or *** just fix necro to be 2500 mag outright, no stipulations needed

Ahhhh... Let their shields go down then burst them!... I'll bet no one tries that. LOL all joking aside, I'm not sure what Sorcs you are fighting where this is even possible. The Sorcs I run into do not let their sheilds down ever. Not once. The exception of course are bad players which will be bad on any class. Back in the day it used to be you had to run them out of resources but that's not really possible anymore either. Streak and Dark Deal took care of that.

And if shields go down a second before you stun them, you have exactly 1 second to 21-24k of damage before stun is broken and shields are up. Not an easy task.