ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

I just went on a killing spree on my serial killer nightblade argonian. Had to basically fight guards to have any threat of dying. Intentionally racked up 143k+ bounty on him before dying. Didn't have any gold or loot on me. Felt like I had to try to die. That was when I was going to end my spree. Went on longer than I'd anticipated.

Sounds about right.

Sounds like most any overland casual content, either of the wandering type or the quest type.

Daily delves, delves in general, finding mobs of walking profit, zone quests - just like thieving and the injustice content that is in the casual repeatable model - they are all setup such that if you have some experience and preparation they do not offer any serious chance of death and there are rewards to be gained for investing game play time into those.

Not much difference except that for the injustice and thieving ones there are "non-damage kill" keys to some, brought about by the guards not being killable (well and the slight risk of losing your ill-gotten gains if you screw up badly enough. Not like the ninth pack of wolves are gonna take back the hides you got from killing all their buddies if you get too sloppy, right?)

Since the profit levels and gains over time - overall gains, not necessarily just gold - for the injustice is not by a long margin the best bang for your play time buck - there is no reason to single out that basic content for an overall across the board difficulty increase removing/replacing the current on-par-with-other-content casual play options..

That said, i for one would not mind a set of toggles for "basic game difficulty" for overland content, something akin to the normal-vet-hard mode content settings for dungeons - even though I know for sure we have seen its not as simple as it seems. it can have some success for instanced areas BECAUSE they can change rules and mechanics, not just numbers, and that is something they cannot do in shared overland areas.

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Not that this is really relevant but seems as a good place to share this idea.

I wish they'd introduce a new mechanic for TH and DB similar to heists and sacraments respectively that gives you set requirements to fulfill but in overland areas. Like towns or settlements in each zone. I don't like heists or sacraments because of the timed aspect. But the contracts and tip board is a little simplistic, more so the contracts as you can usually get by with murdering 1 to 3 people without getting caught. Tip board missions are a bit better in that regard but I feel could be expanded on a bit more. Just, the whole justice system feels a bit under developed.

I know what the general feeling is about the scrapped PvP element they were originally going to add but that does seem like the best way to add a bit more nuance to the justice system. Wish they'd give that a second look.

i have suggested the TG/DB needed more daily delves kind of play, again with sets as potential "success" and the more normal pacing aspect. it could work much like a delve does normally but also have bounty triggered within the delve and have that bounty burn off final payments for the daily. that way, you would be hurt for just going in slaughter style and reward the sneaky side (slower pace) of the gameplay.

i found the tip boards and contracts to be useful, even vital, for skill line leveling but not that much after.

BrianDavion wrote: »

I have a question for the OP "is your ledgermain maxed out?" because if it is then yeah, it's gonna be pretty easy, you've invested time and points into making it easy.

I don't have hardly any points in it because I don't do it a whole lot, but when I do on my 'evil' toon it's easy peasy

PlagueSD wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I hear players in chat not even sneaking when they steal, they just grab, run to the hideouts and sell the stuff, no actual stealth involved there, just running.

I guess you don't know about Night's Silence (stam) or Shadow Dancer's Raiment (magica) armor sets. These completely remove the movement speed penalty of sneak. You can also add the 3 piece Night Terror set bonus for reduced detection range and lower sneak cost. (along with wood elf or Khajit racial and medium armor passives) I can easily run up, use "force lock" on a lockbox, loot and be gone in about 2 seconds. With barrels and bags, I barely stop moving.

Why is everyone on this thread so quick to assume things of others? I know the difference between when someone is stealthed or not and they were not stealthed. I know the difference between a stealthed person using these sets or someone who is just sprinting around swiping stuff because it's that easy. Jeesh.

Alchemical wrote: »

Stealing doesn't even reward very much, unless you're selling 150 purples per day, which you are probably not going to accomplish. I got my first purple a week ago after MONTHS of raiding pockets.

Having a huge bounty isn't that big a deal because you can just deposit all your gold and walk around consequence free. If you watch the guard rotations you can still walk around town with, say, a 200k bounty on your head not that I ever did such a thing. It IS an inconvenience not to have freedom of movement without harassment, and it does take a modicum of paying attention to get around it.

Still, with 50 pardon edicts in my bags I don't really worry about being seen. It's easier to just murder someone in broad daylight and write it off. I wish there was more, harder sneaking content besides the sacraments and heists, but pickpocketing/stealing alone as is barely breaks even if you get caught a lot.

Thieving is very profitable If you do it right. You can make about 1K per minute of time spent and only takes about 30 minutes to reach your daily fence limit with the right class and build. The problem is most people are really bad at it and not efficient in the least bit.

They keys are to have a safe box rotation that you follow, any npc that is vulnerable along the rotation should be pick pocketed once then killed with blade of woe. You can cancel kill cam animations by hitting escape speeding up thriving process. Most important, run a build that let's you run a 100% uptime on cloak. Never having to return to hideout even with a bounty is the key to good money earned with low time spent.

Here is a showcase video of the build I use for thieving.

coop500 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

i choose other because i have a disagreement and an agreement.

First, no crime is not too rewarding.

Go run maybe an horu each of the casual repeatable content type and then see what you gained.

1. Delving thru delves as part of dailies, especially ones with motifs and sets that are worthwhile.
2. Just running up and down a beach killing mudcrabs.
3. Running around a good location farming beasties
4. Running around a good location farming mats of value.
5. Running quests in the main line and side lines.
6. Stealing stuff without accruing bounty or paying off bounty sustainably
7. Murder NPCs without accruing bounty or paying off bounty sustainably.

if you do these for a good time each, do each with planning and praparation and skill, dont do any exploit type stuff like finding a repeating insta-spawn chest or something, and you will find that the gains per time overall are not greater for the injustice ones than for the others. You will likely find delving in good motif drop delves with dailies to be the most overall profitable considering the variety of reqards including xp and other goods not just gold.

last time i ran these comparisons, the injustice fell in the middle - with delving and mudcrabbing actulally being pretty much tops. that has been a while but it was after 1T.

So, NO the generic injustice content does not have an out-of-whack risk-to-reward over time ratio for its play when compared to the other casual repeatable content.

As such, it does not need to be changed to get that. there is no reason to change the content others are playing and enjoying just because it isn't challening to those well equipped and well prepared.

Now for the agreement - i would LOVE to see more injustice content added with it including higher level gameplay of higher difficulty. there is nothing wrong with ADDING new higher difficulty or vet-level injustice pve content... none at all.

But to do that does not require replacing or removing the stuff we already have and that is not out of whack.

ADD more or better if what is there is not to your liking, but dont takeaway what some are now enjoying.

maybe take a cue from the dungeons - they did not remove normal dungeons - they added tougher vet and hard modes with higher rewards and kept the normals.

Someone else does not have to lose stuff for you to get stuff you like, really, they dont.

That is not why I made this poll, please don't assume things of people you do not know.

I rarely steal, I am not a master at it, have very little points and time into being good at it or anything, my reasoning for this poll is not a risk = reward thing like everyone is turning it into, my reasoning is the fact that robbing and stealing and murdering, reguardless of reward, should be risky due to the acts in themselves. Why did they even put in a justice system when it's a huge joke?

If stealing and murdering is so not worth it, why does almost every player I talk to bring it up without me even asking? Why is it such a popular go to for getting gold if it's supposedly so bad? These two things do not jive.

oookaaayyy... so a few things in response.

Referencing the bold in specific, perhaps if this was not supposed to be about risk reward then you should have not put in your opening post the following sentence

" What happened to risk and reward? Instead of all just reward with little risk."

That syncs up with pretty much most everything else in your opening post to make risk and reward sure seem like a thing you were focusing on?

Also, as far as this part:

"my reasoning is the fact that robbing and stealing and murdering, reguardless of reward, should be risky due to the acts in themselves."

See, going into underground lairs to kill trolls and especially the big honkin' boss troll should be "risky due to the acts in themselves." too, right? going into an frozen cavern and fighting wisps, wispmothers and finally a giant honkin' ice atronarch should be risky as well, right?

Well, in the base up-front normal casual overland gameplay level of the game, the risk from this is pretty much the same as it is from stealing or robbing from 'normal folks" and businesses. that is to say that with a little bit of competence or planning a character can likely get success more times than not and should rarely die.

So, compared to other activities in the game that should also, by any logic, be risky, the risk is comparable and so, no, there is no obvious problem about the risk for injustice being out of whack low in the context of overlad/delve content in this game.

now, maybe you have this other source for "how risky ABC should be" thaqt comes from something outside this game? maybe you have a scroll or a book or a set of rune stones you can throw that gives you a broader value and scoring system that says "nope, stealing loaves of bread and picking safe boxes must be more risky than killing giants" but for the rest of us we have most likely just the game play itself to use as a basis for comparison.

When that comparison is made, when we look at the other content and see play over time and compared success-fail and net rewards over time, then the "spend an hour doing injustice" gameplay does not net more overall rewards than the others as a whole, fitting in the same general range of those activities.

Now, IDk and cannot say who you talk with in chat or much anything but for me in the few cases i pay attention to chat the vast majority of posts are either nonsense, folks wanting to group for group content or folks wanting to sell stuff, not folks going on about how great stealing is for profits.

But i can say that, having actually taken time to run same day time vs reward comparisons with a variety of the casual overland type content - injustice did not turn into this major honkin' better than the rest profit center. the best was actually delving - especially in terms of motif drop delves and the second was good chosen farming of beasties - mudcrabs being one of the best - go figure,

However, as you slip into mixed terminology, let me say this - if you look at rewards just from getting gold perspective - solely from once i get done how much gold do i have without thinking about selling thru guild vendors or gaining sets and the like or even Xp and skill advancement - then yes injustice if better "for gold" because all the rewards from injustice, almost all, all the routine ones, are only sellables. injustice is geared to give you more straight out NPC sellable for coins and very little else. You really aren't gonna pickpocket a noble and get a set of rubedite leather to decon for mats. or a sharpened spriggan weapon or whatever with any kind of comparable frequency.

Different activities generate different type of overall rewards, with some crossover. but as far as "just give me gold or stuff i sell to NPCs for gold" - yeah that is the flavor of loot that injustice gives in higher ratio than others.

Delves? Well they give you different drops, more armor or weapons and a guaranteed set piece from the boss. they also tend to give you Xp for killing that advances skills and such a lot more than say the advancement of the legerdem skill line or the value gained from shanking citizens does.

But that kind of makes sense right, different flavors of reward vary by tasks and the overall being more or less in sync with the other types of activities?

So it does depend on what you are after... if you want more coin in hand without guild vendoring and are willing to suffer fewer set pieces and less overall Xp and skills, then maybe thieving is the better choice for time-v-reward. Just like if you have a hankering for ice cream baskin robbins might be a better choice than Wendy's.

But, if you want to construct an argument for taking all the content that is thieving and making it riskier, you need a bit more than what guys told you in chat and your own innate sense of risk to base it on **if** you want to float it to others who don't have your same innate psychic vision of risk and likely chat with different people.

More risk, same reward.

MercyKilling wrote: »

Before the "justice system", I'd wander towns and gather materials for crafting whenever I needed them.

After the "justice system", I no longer wandered towns to gather my materials. Turned off auto loot as well. I had to change my play style to avoid something I wanted no part of.

Ditto pretty much everything added by Zenimax has changed my play style. I got sick and tired of being told how to play the game, where the tag line was "Play how you want". Apparently, I cannot play how I want. This is why I don't log in anymore.

Still, I frequent the forums and patch notes to see if a glimmer of hope returns to the game.


Seeing threads like this makes me think it'll never get here, though.

I really don't understand this. Gathering materials for crafting is still done in the open world through harvest nodes and ordinary containers, nothing to do with stealing at all if you don't want it to be. I doubt I get more than 1% of my materials from stealing and even then I'm selective as I have never had auto-loot enabled.

STEVIL wrote: »

i choose other because i have a disagreement and an agreement.

First, no crime is not too rewarding.

Go run maybe an horu each of the casual repeatable content type and then see what you gained.

1. Delving thru delves as part of dailies, especially ones with motifs and sets that are worthwhile.
2. Just running up and down a beach killing mudcrabs.
3. Running around a good location farming beasties
4. Running around a good location farming mats of value.
5. Running quests in the main line and side lines.
6. Stealing stuff without accruing bounty or paying off bounty sustainably
7. Murder NPCs without accruing bounty or paying off bounty sustainably.

if you do these for a good time each, do each with planning and praparation and skill, dont do any exploit type stuff like finding a repeating insta-spawn chest or something, and you will find that the gains per time overall are not greater for the injustice ones than for the others. You will likely find delving in good motif drop delves with dailies to be the most overall profitable considering the variety of reqards including xp and other goods not just gold.

last time i ran these comparisons, the injustice fell in the middle - with delving and mudcrabbing actulally being pretty much tops. that has been a while but it was after 1T.

So, NO the generic injustice content does not have an out-of-whack risk-to-reward over time ratio for its play when compared to the other casual repeatable content.

As such, it does not need to be changed to get that. there is no reason to change the content others are playing and enjoying just because it isn't challening to those well equipped and well prepared.

Now for the agreement - i would LOVE to see more injustice content added with it including higher level gameplay of higher difficulty. there is nothing wrong with ADDING new higher difficulty or vet-level injustice pve content... none at all.

But to do that does not require replacing or removing the stuff we already have and that is not out of whack.

ADD more or better if what is there is not to your liking, but dont takeaway what some are now enjoying.

maybe take a cue from the dungeons - they did not remove normal dungeons - they added tougher vet and hard modes with higher rewards and kept the normals.

Someone else does not have to lose stuff for you to get stuff you like, really, they dont.

Awesome. There is a point : let the difficulty of crime scale with level and cp and there we go. If someone like to be a pro thief at cp660+ then he has to be REAL pro.

Can this thread be closed please? The theives and murders have said their peace, they won, just get it over with and close this damn thing,

coop500 wrote: »

Can this thread be closed please? The theives and murders have said their peace, they won, just get it over with and close this damn thing,

just to be clear - no CHARACTERS make posts on this forum, only PLAYERS do, and some non-players.

So by saying the thieves and murderers have had their say here, you are aware you are calling the people posting here thieves and murderers, not their characters?

Right?

Well, no matter what you may want to portray for your soapbox, derezing one flavor of pixels in a video game does not make anyone a murderer.

its not a real crime, right, you get that?

On the otherhand, Zos could make things easier... They currently have the Monks robes disguise that disguises your bounty for a limited time, they could also have a guard disguise that allows the player to see others with a bounty and attack them. That disguise is lost should the "guard" player dies, and the bounty on the other player is increased significantly.

In order to get the guard disguise, the player should speak to the guard captain of the city they are in. While wearing the guard disguise, the player cannot enter the outlaw den, and the player cannot put on the guard disguise if they are in the outlaw den.

Should a player with a bounty kill a "guard" player, they take a small percentage (2%) of the gold on that player, causing the act of being a guard/vigilante to be a risk; however, should the guard player kill the player with the bounty, the guard/vigilante receives 50% of that bounty (with the rest going to the city to pay for losses) and the bounty is paid from the gold on the thief/murderer's pocket, and they lose that which they stole.

Should the guard/vigilante not have any gold on them when they die from their failed attempt at justice, the player that had the bounty will receive no gold, but also have no increase on their bounty. Should the player with the bounty not have any gold on their character, they will still lose what they stole, and the guard/vigilante receives 10% of the bounty as collection for their efforts. The player with the bounty will still have a bounty after they res.

@ZOS_GinaBruno (While I am aware of the decision to scrap the justice system, here are my 2 cents)

It seems to me the obvious fix is to just have the "heat" timer only count down while that character is logged in.

It's already pretty good the way it is I don't see why it needs to be harder... Besides it would be harder to get money...