Stamina Damage Shields - Your Initial Instincts Were Right, ZOS

DarkAedin · August 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Blade Cloak requires dual wield.
Brawler requires 2H and multiple enemies.

Not exactly a wealth of options there.

The only other stamina-based weapons you have are Shield (which has a wealth of defensive options and is tank-centric) and Bow (which is the safest of all stamina weapons with its range).

I'm not sure what you want here?

Well. For starters id like a stam version of viscious death.

A pbaoe equivelent ultimate to eots.

A stam morph and proper stam scaling to det.

And a lot more ballance between mag and stam

And many, many more things.

Magicka would like a non class aoe hot.

Weapon skill gap closers + executes.

The ability to roll using main resources.

An equivlant to dawnbreaker, aoe cc thats instant, very cheap, hits hard, has a massive dots and deall bonus dmg.

But magicka won't get that and shouldn't get that.

Not everything is equal.

Magika builds have access to resto staff viably.

3/5 classes with gap closer, 2/5 other classes with a ranged pull ( only magika morphs )

U think i can roll forever and not gear specifically for that?? Stam is pigeonheld in at least 1 sustain set as is. And mind u, they already nerfed this by increasing cost and cp changes amd poisons.

Dawnbreaker is wat we use bc all the morphs of class ultis dont scale well with stam AND magika builds are already using dawnbreaker viably

Dont forget we are primarily melee.

br0steen · August 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Completely removing Major/Minor Evasion would be a lot healthier for the game in general, allowing real and meaningful alternatives to defenses that have counterplay, rather than an RNG bound instance to remove ALL damage that cannot be contended with in most ways, to enter the game. What skill is there in pressing a button every 10-20 seconds and randomly avoiding all damage thrown at me in 1 second intervals? Where is the meaningful interaction and thought process behind passive dodge chance?

@Gilliamtherogue evasion doesn't dodge all skills in a 1 sec window. That's dodge roll. Not sure if it's exactly a 1 sec interval but it's relatively close.

Betsararie · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive

No.

They simply do not. Every single one of your posts about PvP balance are just out there man. I'm sorry.

Stam has soo many ways to survive. If you can't survive as a stam player it is 100% on you.

Kalante · August 2017

People in this thread are obviously really bad at this game and have not played a stamina character competitively in pvp and pve. When people claim there is "balance" i assume they are new because there is no way a top tier player would agree with any of this. Stamina has more dps than magicka? not if you are constantly fighting for your survival. Please gtfo, you have no business talking about stamina let alone balance. I would take any instant defence over RNG defence or gimpy HOTS and blade cloak lol. I would love to see all these people play a stam NB NO PROCS and play in cyrodiil for more than 2 hours without switching to their easy mode mag bol spam templars, healing ward mag nb's, or shield stacking mag sorc.

Savos_Saren · August 2017

The problem with giving Stamina builds shields that are just as strong as Magicka builds is that medium/heavy armor already benefits from higher resistances than light armor.

So, you'd like higher resistances than light armor and equally powerful shields? There's no trade off. While high health builds in heavy armor can achieve high shields- they lose out in damaging abilities. (with the sole exception of the old "blazing shield" build from PVP)

Izaki · August 2017

I dunno Deadly Cloak, Major Resistance buffs, 18k health and a block here and there are more than enough for me to stay alive in any trial. Okay, I might have to slot Vigor instead of Leeching Strikes or Repentance (the latter is a dead slot in boss fights anyway) on the 4th boss of vHoF. Other than that I have 0 issues staying alive.

Izaki · August 2017

TheUrbanWizard wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

In pve you can just use cloak.

Problem solved.

Not everyone wants to run dw, and brawler is just not effective enough to put on my bar.

Brawler gives you a pretty decent shield considering most bosses with heavy incoming damage have adds, which is what I believe the OP was indirectly asking for...

Izaki · August 2017

DarkAedin wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Blade Cloak requires dual wield.
Brawler requires 2H and multiple enemies.

Not exactly a wealth of options there.

The only other stamina-based weapons you have are Shield (which has a wealth of defensive options and is tank-centric) and Bow (which is the safest of all stamina weapons with its range).

I'm not sure what you want here?

Well. For starters id like a stam version of viscious death.

A pbaoe equivelent ultimate to eots.

A stam morph and proper stam scaling to det.

And a lot more ballance between mag and stam

And many, many more things.

Magicka needs a slight DPS buff currently. Stamina does some pretty insane single target damage compared to magicka. And once you learn the content (aka vHoF) it becomes easier to not die, so that's one benefit of being magicka gone. I'd say that its almost pretty well balanced, but that would be a lie, stamina is just flat out better once you know what you're doing. That doesn't mean you don't need magicka DPS in a group. You still need Blockade of Storms and EotS.

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive

No.

They simply do not. Every single one of your posts about PvP balance are just out there man. I'm sorry.

Stam has soo many ways to survive. If you can't survive as a stam player it is 100% on you.

Who is talking about PVP?

Micah_Bayer · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Strictly speaking pvp. What about the other 60% sorcerers that don't use pets. They'd be against much more beefy targets considering a Stam buff. Don't give me twil heal in pvp either hit that thing 3 times and you're out of magicka combined with shield stacking. Scamp can be nerfed into the ground would that make you happier?

Sylosi · August 2017

Kalante wrote: »

People in this thread are obviously really bad at this game and have not played a stamina character competitively in pvp and pve.

You have to be pretty bad to think that this game has competitive PvP or that "competitive" PvE is anything but a joke...

Anne_Firehawk · August 2017

It was broken as ***, hence why they changed it back.

Dreepa · August 2017

The solution is to not make a character decide between magicka or stamina. And it has the side effect that not 50% of his skills are useless.

LorDrek · August 2017

Give back stamina regen in block, sprint.

Demolitionary · August 2017

TBH, Stam have Rally too, 2H momentum morph, HoT + 20% weapon damage oh, almost forgot, the longer rally is up the more it heals when it ends. You can end it any time to get on demand heal, that with brawler and Vigor, if Stamplar you also have repentance, it got nerfed yeah but still great for on demand heals and resource recovery if there are dead enemies about.

Yeah some stuff like evasion are useless, but, there are other skills, imagine taking 2H with rally + Brawler and DW with cloak? 25% less AoE, constant HoT's with Vigor and Rally with on demand heals and brawler if situation presents but it also causes bleed so why not?. Yeah then DPS isn't up to standard without Bow but still, you know just take Caltrops with steel tornado, brawler causing bleed to all in the cone in-front of you. Then slice to execute when they are below 10% health, massive AoE included. Not sure about single target though, trap beast with that I guess, but that is just a thought.

The option is there, just need to look into it further.

*Edit - Bleed with axes stacks with brawler fyi.

Feanor · August 2017

Not every stam user plays medium armour, especially in PvP. A stam shield on top of the existing defensive mechanics would lead to everyone playing stam characters. You'd have the highest damage, the best mitigation, and the best active and passive defenses. It's simply too much. If anything the Armour lines should be looked at. For PvP Heavy still needs some tweaks and medium and light armour a buff.

GreenhaloX · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health.

Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

Just going off this portion of your comment, I'm sensing you don't play a stam toon, like a 2H or DW StamDK too much. Not that it matters if you do or not. However, a stamina-based shield like Bone Shield for a stam toon is not really practical, but a stam toon is forced to use Bone Shield since the Morrowind patch. Prior to the Morrowind patch, Igneous Shield, although not the best, was ok for a StamDK, 2H or DW. Unfortunately, Igneous Shield had been nerfed/shredded again with the July patch. So, it has since become utterly useless. I was forced to switch to Bone Shield, and I'm sure other stam toon users may have as well. My StamDK is not as effective with Bone Shield as it was with Igneous Shield, prior to Morrowind patch. Also, with the nerf to Hardy and Elemental with the Morrowind patch, our defenses and resistance to incoming damage have become much lower; thus, the adds and bosses are packing more heat. Just for normal PvE contents like dolmen and world bosses, damages of 4-13k, and even 18k and upward blast, aoe and whatnot are being thrown at you. Most of the toons are anywhere from 18-22k hp, and Igneous Shield isn't doing crap to mitigate those incoming damages. So, many are wiping a lot more these past months.

Ok, so using Bone Shield instead does a bit better job at mitigating those damages, but it eats up the stamina pool which most of a stam toon's skills are stam-based. Everytime you pop up the Bone Shield, it's what 3700 or 3800 stamina cost. That is stamina wasted that could otherwise be use for the damage inducing skills. With Igneous Shield (before it was shredded), it was better because it is majicka-based. So, if you have to pop up Bone Shield, but a boss at a dolmen or a world boss can still knock that out of you with one hit. Let's say you have to pop it again, now that's almost 8k worth stamina gone. Then the barrage or onslaught continue and you pop the Vigor or Rally, which are also both stam-based, your stamina pool is draining down fast. With Bone Shield, you have another factor to consider in stamina resource management. With the average toons carrying 35-36k stamina pool and Warlord's stamina cost reduction is gone, having to use Bone Shield with the other stam-based skillset, it is a bit more challenging in resource management for a stam toon.

So with the damage shield aspect for a stam toon like a DK or NB, it is a crying shame what they have done to Igneous Shield, then forcing to use Bone Shield for a stam-based damage inducing toon. Ok, sure, minus the Major Mending from the Igneous, Bone Shield is more effective for a MagDK versus the StamDK. Prior to Morrowind patch, I was still using Igneous for my MagDK. Even though it eats up majicka, it is easier to regain majicka with the lightning staff's heavy hits for a MagDK. Now, I had to slot Bone Shield for my MagDK as well. Good thing is I don't have worry about my majicka being eaten up when popping the Bone Shield with the MagDK. However, for a stam toon, it's rough going trying to regain stamina back with a 2H or DW heavy attack of the stam toon.

Prior to Morrowind patch, I could practically solo any of the world bosses, even the DLC ones and also went through certain vet dungeons sololy with my StamDK. Now, with a StamDK or a StamBlade, forget about it.. especially having to use Bone Shield. When soloing, you're practically running around constantly trying to refresh your stam resource. Using a stam-based shield for a stam-based toon.. what a crying shame. It should be criminal! It is just sad, really. Every time something is nerfed is supposedly "for balance." Yeah, for balance efforts in PvP, but there is no separation for PvE. So, we feel the effect in PvE land hard when the toons have been shriveled down while the enemies/bosses are becoming stronger. Thus, there is no damn balance for PvE.

Feanor · August 2017

@GreenhaloX

One could make the point dungeons and world bosses should not be soloable to begin with...

Skayaq · August 2017

@GreenhaloX last I checked both Bone shield and igneous Shield shielded the caster for 30% of max Health.

brandonv516 · August 2017

Nope terrible idea. Bone Shield was reverted and that reason is...

ZoS doesn't know how to balance PvP and PvE.

Gilliamtherogue · August 2017

br0steen wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Completely removing Major/Minor Evasion would be a lot healthier for the game in general, allowing real and meaningful alternatives to defenses that have counterplay, rather than an RNG bound instance to remove ALL damage that cannot be contended with in most ways, to enter the game. What skill is there in pressing a button every 10-20 seconds and randomly avoiding all damage thrown at me in 1 second intervals? Where is the meaningful interaction and thought process behind passive dodge chance?

@Gilliamtherogue evasion doesn't dodge all skills in a 1 sec window. That's dodge roll. Not sure if it's exactly a 1 sec interval but it's relatively close.

Correct, it dodges one source of damage (non DoTs unless it's their application). I was speaking in 1v1 situations since each ability is on a 1 second ICD, it effectively removes that 1 second from the fight and gives me time while my enemy wastes resources and loses time. Evasion isn't a very reactionary skill, it just goes off randomly.

Dodge roll avoids all dodgeable attacks for ~1s interval. There are a few things to increase the duration though.

technohic · August 2017

I'd personally hate shields. Recasting a bubble every 6 seconds or less is not my idea of fun gameplay. Rather it not become the defense of stam as well here

GreenhaloX · August 2017

Skayaq wrote: »

@GreenhaloX last I checked both Bone shield and igneous Shield shielded the caster for 30% of max Health.

@Skayaq, nahh.. Igneous aren't 30%. Ha ha. Nowhere close.. 10% maybe.

GreenhaloX · August 2017

technohic wrote: »

I'd personally hate shields. Recasting a bubble every 6 seconds or less is not my idea of fun gameplay. Rather it not become the defense of stam as well here

I hear you.. but, for a lonewolf who prefers to solo what he can and relies on self-healing and self-defenses rather than a healer and/or another 2 or 3 other dpsers, a damage shield is one of the meats and potatoes for this one (in homage to khajiits here, ha ha.) However, in a trial or group outing in a dungeon or so, yeah, you shouldn't need so much to fret on such a damage shield.

Skayaq · August 2017

@GreenhaloX 10% of your max health on others, additional 200% on yourself = 30% max health.

Wreuntzylla · August 2017

My personal view is that no defensive ability should scale off of your primary stat pool, and if you want both damage and defense, you should be required to hybridize.

Take hircine's bounty in the WW skill line. WW is a stam skill line with a magicka/spell power heal that scales arguably better than any other heal in the game. However, since it scales off of stats other than your primary, If you want survivability as a ww, you essentially have to wear Pellinals.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

br0steen wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Completely removing Major/Minor Evasion would be a lot healthier for the game in general, allowing real and meaningful alternatives to defenses that have counterplay, rather than an RNG bound instance to remove ALL damage that cannot be contended with in most ways, to enter the game. What skill is there in pressing a button every 10-20 seconds and randomly avoiding all damage thrown at me in 1 second intervals? Where is the meaningful interaction and thought process behind passive dodge chance?

@Gilliamtherogue evasion doesn't dodge all skills in a 1 sec window. That's dodge roll. Not sure if it's exactly a 1 sec interval but it's relatively close.

Correct, it dodges one source of damage (non DoTs unless it's their application). I was speaking in 1v1 situations since each ability is on a 1 second ICD, it effectively removes that 1 second from the fight and gives me time while my enemy wastes resources and loses time. Evasion isn't a very reactionary skill, it just goes off randomly.

Dodge roll avoids all dodgeable attacks for ~1s interval. There are a few things to increase the duration though.

Last I checked, 0.7 sec. Dodge rolls can essentially be chained at 1sec intervals and the dodge period is 0.7 sec. The 0.3 seconds from the crusader set allows you to be within the dodge period continuously.

I used that set way back when dodge roll 2h/bow was at it's height. It's useful if you are able to effectively animation cancel attacks with your rolls.

Joy_Division · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Someone at sometime will make a stamina magicka thread that doesn't assume that magicka sorcerer = Magicka build.

And, yes, that's balanced. Jack of all trades is master at none. You want stamina to have a higher DPS with comparable suriviability, check that more because of stuff like Blade cloak and non class/weapon HoT, which is not balanced.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Balanced? Yes. Homogenized? No, but that's ok because we don't want that.

Exactly!!! Making all classes/specs equal in all roles is homogenization. It is also Boring AF and renders classes meaningless. What most people want are for their choices in build design to be meaningful. I am not saying that the game is balanced because stam does more damage. I am saying the game is balanced (not perfectly i might add), because for the first time in a long while, we have tradeoffs. If you want to go super glass cannon, stamina is for you. If you want a better mix of damage and survival, you have that option with other class/roles.

Also, OP, you are talking 4 man content. Try to heal or tank a trial with that same build and see what happens. It wont work. In true end game content you need to specialize. If you want a jack of all trades type character for solo or 4-man, then yes, magic is probably better for that. That said, the game needs to be balanced around true end game content, not pug runs. To go the other way, give stamina a damage shield and we would swing completely the other way. Nobody would play magic.

Oh yeah, and vigor is actually a pretty solid group heal. Not saying I am going to heal for man content with it, but you can certainly keep your group up if the healer goes down for a bit.

"If you want a jack of all trades type character for solo or 4-man, then yes, magic is probably better for that."

Yes, you're making my point. 4 person is not balanced because magicka is an overall better option.

It is a better option for some. I can clear 4 man stuff much faster on stamina in a good group. In a group with questionable support, I will concede magic is probably better. That said, if you need to shield spam in 4 man content, you have bigger issues.

But again, I dont think we should balance content around pug runs. We should balance it around true end game content, otherwise things have a tendency to become ridiculously OP (see magic sorc 2 patches ago, where one class was best at damage and survival and everyone ran one).

I will not say the game is perfectly balance, but news flash, that is an unrealistic goal. I will say it is more balanced than it was 2 patches ago. We have gone from the best raid groups using 7-8 magic sorcs for DPS to raid groups using 4 stam and 4 magic, with a pretty diverse class composition. Even if it's not perfect, it's a step in the right direction. If stamina had a damage shield on par with magic users, it would swing the other way. Currently, Stam has higher DPS and lower mitigation, magic has lower DPS and higher Mitigation. That is the simplest trade-off there is (damage vs survival), and from that standpoint, the game is more balanced now than it has been in a long while.

Sylosi wrote: »

Kalante wrote: »

People in this thread are obviously really bad at this game and have not played a stamina character competitively in pvp and pve.

You have to be pretty bad to think that this game has competitive PvP or that "competitive" PvE is anything but a joke...

Troll Fail. Please show me your name next to a 600k VMA score or a 160K maw run and then you can make that statement. End game PVE is certainly competive with trials, and PVP is the definition of direct competition.

Megabear · August 2017

Read through the posts, and I agree w/ Oreyn_Bearclaw is pretty much everything.

Barbaran · August 2017

DarkAedin wrote: »

As a stam player, id be up for the removal of major/miner evasion with having access to a legit stam shield.
Id also like for more mitigation when im activly dodging. I have to dip into the same resource for heals, dmg, blocking, and roll dodging and i personally feel that i should be a bit more tankier if im taking up this vital resource for mitigation.

Shacklebreaker isnt as powerful on a stam build then a mag build on most classes, esp. bc we stam builds are limited on which mag abilities we can use.. vs mag builds producing dmg and healing from one pool and mitigating with both, EFFECTIVLY.

i enjoy that all stam players say its harder and more skilled to play stam and all mag players say its harder and more skilled to play mag