Stamina Damage Shields - Your Initial Instincts Were Right, ZOS

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

casparian · August 2017

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Gilliamtherogue · August 2017

Completely removing Major/Minor Evasion would be a lot healthier for the game in general, allowing real and meaningful alternatives to defenses that have counterplay, rather than an RNG bound instance to remove ALL damage that cannot be contended with in most ways, to enter the game. What skill is there in pressing a button every 10-20 seconds and randomly avoiding all damage thrown at me in 1 second intervals? Where is the meaningful interaction and thought process behind passive dodge chance?

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Blade Cloak requires dual wield.
Brawler requires 2H and multiple enemies.

Not exactly a wealth of options there.

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Completely removing Major/Minor Evasion would be a lot healthier for the game in general, allowing real and meaningful alternatives to defenses that have counterplay, rather than a RNG bound instance to remove ALL damage that cannot be contended with in most ways, to enter the game. What skill is there in pressing a button every 10-20 seconds and randomly avoiding all damage thrown at me in 1 second intervals? Where is the meaningful interaction and thought process behind passive dodge chance?

Agreed in PVP, but it's actually quite nice sometimes in PVE. My tank has had a few awesomely heroic moments where the group would have wiped but a boss whiffed on an attempt to kill me (thanks to dodge change) while I was resurrecting healer and we were able to get the whole team back into it. We were cheering because we thought death was inevitable.

It's a very specific situation, I know, but dodge chance made that experience awesome. We still talk about that even though it was over a year and a half ago.

Bladerunner1 · August 2017

There's another damage shield you can gain access to on stamina: Brawler

It's situational and relies on hitting multiple enemies to gain a bigger shield, but it's really good as an off tank type of Stam DPS when trash mobs are out of hand. A 2H and bow Stamblade can deal approximately the same single target DPS as a self buffed Mag sorc. The Stamblade also gets an AOE DPS lift by combining power extraction and the two hand forceful passive / reverse slice. I haven't seen exact AOE DPS numbers on a Magsorc, but 2H passives and skills let you hit untargeted enemies within 5 meters with anywhere between 20 kdps to 35 kdps each.

DarkAedin · August 2017

As a stam player, id be up for the removal of major/miner evasion with having access to a legit stam shield.
Id also like for more mitigation when im activly dodging. I have to dip into the same resource for heals, dmg, blocking, and roll dodging and i personally feel that i should be a bit more tankier if im taking up this vital resource for mitigation.

Shacklebreaker isnt as powerful on a stam build then a mag build on most classes, esp. bc we stam builds are limited on which mag abilities we can use.. vs mag builds producing dmg and healing from one pool and mitigating with both, EFFECTIVLY.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Tornaad · August 2017

I can agree with that.

BlazingDynamo · August 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Completely removing Major/Minor Evasion would be a lot healthier for the game in general, allowing real and meaningful alternatives to defenses that have counterplay, rather than a RNG bound instance to remove ALL damage that cannot be contended with in most ways, to enter the game. What skill is there in pressing a button every 10-20 seconds and randomly avoiding all damage thrown at me in 1 second intervals? Where is the meaningful interaction and thought process behind passive dodge chance?

In that case you should actually have to time your dodge roll. Not spam it and successfully dodge things seconds after.

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

s7732425ub17_ESO · August 2017

Stamina builds have much higher DPS but lower survivability. Magicka builds have lower DPS but much higher survivability. This is known as balance.

Jamini · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Blade Cloak requires dual wield.
Brawler requires 2H and multiple enemies.

Not exactly a wealth of options there.

The only other stamina-based weapons you have are Shield (which has a wealth of defensive options and is tank-centric) and Bow (which is the safest of all stamina weapons with its range).

I'm not sure what you want here?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

Enslaved · August 2017

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Yeah, blade cloak. Against aoe. Against direct attacks? DoTs? No damage reduction at all.

Rataroto · August 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Yeah, blade cloak. Against aoe. Against direct attacks? DoTs? No damage reduction at all.

In trials, AKA where that *** matters every Boss mechanic is considered AOE by blade cloak

Rungar · August 2017

All shields should be based on 50% health and 50% cost stat. Its the only way to balance them.

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Danksta · August 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Balanced? Yes. Homogenized? No, but that's ok because we don't want that.

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

Danksta wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Balanced? Yes. Homogenized? No, but that's ok because we don't want that.

It's essential that we have that in some areas. Shielding is one of them.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

Danksta wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Balanced? Yes. Homogenized? No, but that's ok because we don't want that.

Exactly!!! Making all classes/specs equal in all roles is homogenization. It is also Boring AF and renders classes meaningless. What most people want are for their choices in build design to be meaningful. I am not saying that the game is balanced because stam does more damage. I am saying the game is balanced (not perfectly i might add), because for the first time in a long while, we have tradeoffs. If you want to go super glass cannon, stamina is for you. If you want a better mix of damage and survival, you have that option with other class/roles.

Also, OP, you are talking 4 man content. Try to heal or tank a vet trial on HM with that same build and see what happens. It wont work. In true end game content you need to specialize. If you want a jack of all trades type character for solo or 4-man, then yes, magic is probably better for that. That said, the game needs to be balanced around true end game content, not pug runs. To go the other way, give stamina a damage shield and we would swing completely the other way. Nobody would play magic.

Oh yeah, and vigor is actually a pretty solid group heal. Not saying I am going to heal for man content with it, but you can certainly keep your group up if the healer goes down for a bit. I can also kite a boss in a pinch much better with a dodge roll than with a shield.

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

In one of the past balance patches, I believe it was around the time of One Tamriel or Thieves Guild, ZOS made a change on PTS that saw the Bone Shield undaunted skill scale on max stamina instead of health. This would have allowed stamina builds the option to have a damage shield similar to magicka builds. The change never made it to live, but it shows that ZOS was aware at the time that stamina builds needed a better way to survive.

ZOS, your initial instincts were right. Stamina needs a better way of surviving in PVE because dodge roll just isn't as valuable as magicka damage shields. On my magicka sorcerer I can DPS, Tank in a pinch thanks to damage shields, and Heal allies in a pinch, all in one character, which makes for a very valuable and fun experience. Most, if not all of my stamina builds just don't have that luxury - but it would be great if they did. Adding a stamina shielding option would at least allow stamina builds to survive/off-tank well enough to match what magicka builds can currently do.

I imagine a lot of people will express concern that stamina shielding would be too OP in Cyrodiil/PVP. I share that concern, and perhaps certain measures could be taken to ease that concern - such as disabling dodge change while a stamina shield is active, or something along those lines. Testing would be required, but I think ZOS was right with their idea of introducing a stamina shield.

Stamina has Bladecloak and Vigor. And because stamina manages resources so much better than magic at the moment, you should also have an enormous resource pool to block or roll. You dont need anything else to survive in PVE content other than a healthy dose of L2P. Most good raid groups are back to 4 stam/4 magic this patch. Stam Shileds would be beyond broken in PVP as you indicated, which is also why they never made it to live.

Is it harder to survive on stamina? Sure is. But you also have the potential for way more damage on every class. With risk comes reward. This is also known as Balance.

Balance? I disagree. You are talking about a skill that requires your character to equip dual wield (Blade Cloak) and a heal that doesn't have as much burst as magicka heals (Vigor).

Give me a Sorc shielding with either class or armor shield, or both, along with Twilight Matriarch over any stamina build in any dungeon, every time.

And I will hop on my stamina sorc (or any stamina class) and out DPS you every single time. Balance is not about all things being equal, it is about meaningful trade offs for the choices we make. 2 patches ago when a pet sorc had the best survivability AND the best defense, the game was NOT Balanced. There was no objective reason to go stamina.

Right now if you want to play it safe, hop on a ranged magic class. You can avoid most mechanics, shield through the rest, and pull plenty of DPS to clear any content in the game. If you want to assume more risk, well get on stamina, get in the thick of things and have at it. Your DPS will have a much higher ceiling, but you will also be much more vulnerable.

Please explain how that is not balanced.

Edit: Also, you arent using vigor correctly. It is a short duration HOT. Much like a shield, it needs to be cast before you get hit, not after.

On my 7 piece light armor magicka sorcerer I can do this all in one build in dungeons when teammates die or someone lags out:
1) DPS for group
2) Tank for group (damage shields)
3) Heal for group (Matriarch 2 target burst smart heal)

On my 7 piece medium armor stamina it's the following:
1) DPS for group (no change)
2) Tank for group (requires that I equip dual wield and/or 2H for Brawler, which requires multiple enemies, and neither of these options are as effective as damage shields)
3) Heal for group (requires teammates needing heals to be within 15 meters for Vigor and can't burst heal them or smart heal them)

Let's say someone needs to be resurrected while boss is attacking you. Stack up shields with magicka sorcerer and it's easy. On a stamina character your only hope is passive dodge chance.

You call this balanced? Just because stamina does more damage does not mean that the game is balanced.

Balanced? Yes. Homogenized? No, but that's ok because we don't want that.

Exactly!!! Making all classes/specs equal in all roles is homogenization. It is also Boring AF and renders classes meaningless. What most people want are for their choices in build design to be meaningful. I am not saying that the game is balanced because stam does more damage. I am saying the game is balanced (not perfectly i might add), because for the first time in a long while, we have tradeoffs. If you want to go super glass cannon, stamina is for you. If you want a better mix of damage and survival, you have that option with other class/roles.

Also, OP, you are talking 4 man content. Try to heal or tank a trial with that same build and see what happens. It wont work. In true end game content you need to specialize. If you want a jack of all trades type character for solo or 4-man, then yes, magic is probably better for that. That said, the game needs to be balanced around true end game content, not pug runs. To go the other way, give stamina a damage shield and we would swing completely the other way. Nobody would play magic.

Oh yeah, and vigor is actually a pretty solid group heal. Not saying I am going to heal for man content with it, but you can certainly keep your group up if the healer goes down for a bit.

"If you want a jack of all trades type character for solo or 4-man, then yes, magic is probably better for that."

Yes, you're making my point. 4 person is not balanced because magicka is an overall better option.

DarkAedin · August 2017

Jamini wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Blade Cloak requires dual wield.
Brawler requires 2H and multiple enemies.

Not exactly a wealth of options there.

The only other stamina-based weapons you have are Shield (which has a wealth of defensive options and is tank-centric) and Bow (which is the safest of all stamina weapons with its range).

I'm not sure what you want here?

Well. For starters id like a stam version of viscious death.

A pbaoe equivelent ultimate to eots.

A stam morph and proper stam scaling to det.

And a lot more ballance between mag and stam

And many, many more things.

idk · August 2017

If anything the pts changes OP speaks of demonstrated the shield was to OP considering the other damage reductions available to Stam. It's why they rolled it back. Was good to test it.

leepalmer95 · August 2017

In pve you can just use cloak.

Problem solved.

leepalmer95 · August 2017

DarkAedin wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

You've made an entire post about stamina survivability in PVE without mentioning Blade Cloak or Brawler. Blade Cloak in particular is extremely strong.

Blade Cloak requires dual wield.
Brawler requires 2H and multiple enemies.

Not exactly a wealth of options there.

The only other stamina-based weapons you have are Shield (which has a wealth of defensive options and is tank-centric) and Bow (which is the safest of all stamina weapons with its range).

I'm not sure what you want here?

Well. For starters id like a stam version of viscious death.

A pbaoe equivelent ultimate to eots.

A stam morph and proper stam scaling to det.

And a lot more ballance between mag and stam

And many, many more things.

Magicka would like a non class aoe hot.

Weapon skill gap closers + executes.

The ability to roll using main resources.

An equivlant to dawnbreaker, aoe cc thats instant, very cheap, hits hard, has a massive dots and deall bonus dmg.

But magicka won't get that and shouldn't get that.

Not everything is equal.

TheUrbanWizard · August 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

In pve you can just use cloak.

Problem solved.

Not everyone wants to run dw, and brawler is just not effective enough to put on my bar.

MakoFore · August 2017

stamina needs a way to stop incoming damage- give time and recover the way shields do. outhealing something isnt the same as stopping all damage. case in point- the poison stage in vMA. if u get hit as a stamina- ur ***. if ur magicak- its pop shields and ur fine- in fact as a s magicka thruout- u just pop shields and u can survive any wave.

SnubbS · August 2017

I just want CP damage reduction trees to stop reducing the damage that shields take in PvP. Is that too much to ask?

GrumpyDuckling · August 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

In pve you can just use cloak.

Problem solved.

What?

deepseamk20b14_ESO · August 2017

Not a fan of shields on a stamina character.

To fix medium armor I say make dodge roll dodge single attacks (as they currently do) but also make it so if dodging an AoE attack you only take 50% damage.

Wind running should also give a 15% chance to not get dodge roll fatigue from dodge rolling for 5 seconds or perhaps .5 seconds per piece of medium armor pieces equipped.