PVP Balance - Should ZOS listen to Top Tier or Casuals?

Valen_Byte · August 2017

Neither, I think they should do mostly internal testing.

IAVITNI · August 2017

People seem to be selectively reading the op. Question is who should they listen MORE to. It's not one or the other.

To answer the actual question and not the illiterate one, hands down it's top tier players. Casuals don't have enough understanding of mechanics and game theory to provide the bulk of input. Majority of casual players will complain about shield stacking instead of applying any form of crowd control to pressure stamina pools. And I've dueled sorcs on my medium armor nightblade and had them complain I was dodging too much after I beat them by dodging their ridiculously telegraphed c-frag that they neglected to set up.

They complain by spouting opinion is fact. If the support opinion with fact, such ass "sheild stacking is op because harness magicka enables you to infinitely recast your sheild" or "dodge roll is op because you can dodge 8 times in a row while HoTing through my damage and having enough stamina/burst to kill me" then honestly i would say casuals. Unfortunately, majority of casuals will only ever offer opinions. Sure, they may be right at times but imagine if the president made decisions based on what he "felt" was right without consulting people who actually understood the ramifications of the actions to be taken.

From a "theoretical" political example, the president represents the will of the people (casuals) cuz democracy, but before any decisions are made, experts (top tier) are consulted and there are mechanisms in place to prevent questionable decisions from moving forward until all parties agree to an extent.

*Disclaimer-the above example is used for its concept, not real world applicability

STEVIL · August 2017

Always include an other.

They should LISTEN to both plus others and add that info to their considerations alongside collected metrics and such.

All should weigh provable data more than just opinion or belief.

Net result should be most everyone heard even if the suggestion is not implemented.

Gilvoth · August 2017

niether one.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · August 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

NEITHER

Go off data

Forums whines and streamers wrecked HotR by screaming about meta when ZOS wanted none = nerfs to crit, MS, Shadow....

this, this and this

listen to this man

Banana · August 2017

Trends in the crown store would be what they are most concerned with.

Derra · August 2017

Top Tier

Asmael wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Question: how do you know a PvPer is top tier? At which point do you consider one's feedback to be worth? What kind of knowledge does said player need to have about his own class as well as others?

At this point, you realize that the very definition of "top tier" is subjective, and cannot properly limit the field of "top tier" players by nothing else but artificial ingame factors that may or may not be good enough to properly separate players.

And that's not mentioning that you are basically ignoring the majority of players - not exactly the smartest business decision a company can do either, regardless of actual balance issues.

TL;DR: in theory, you'd ask top tier players for PvP balance suggestions, in practice, you cannot give a proper definition of "bing top tier", thus you gotta ask everyone.

That's what leagues, ladders, tourneys and MMR are usually for. In combo with quality insights ingame or web platforms. See team liquid & starcraft (or mobas) for reference. I was frequent user of that site for about 10 years and your balance related posts would simply not get published if you were not known to understand the game (being in top positions on ladder, placing high in tourneys, etc.).

It's actually rather easy. And those games still retain a healthy low-mid end customer base (skill wise). Because, they are actually reasonably well balanced and it is desirable for people to take the time and improve.

It is rather "easy" (hint: actually it's pretty darn long to do, if you want to do a proper job) to balance SC/SC2 and MOBAs because we have a single competitive field mode with a limited number of factors for fights in a controlled environment. Except ESO is an MMO, not a MOBA/RTS or else, and has no proper MMR for battlegrounds, no ranking for duels, no eSport scene nor professional play, not specific consideration / ranking for open world play.

How do you balance ESO? Around BGs? Cyrodiil leaderboard? Duels? 1/2vX and outnumbered play? Even teams in Cyrodiil? According to which rulesets?

I am not saying it's not possible at all, what I am saying is that we don't currently have the tools (be it proper MMR or data on gear/class/ability/anything usage/efficiency, group composition for different sizes, matchmaking stats...) to make proper balance decisions, nor what is/are the competitive field(s) considered.

Eso has to be balanced the other way around.

You have to look at mechanics that are absolutely mandatory to be competetive on certain chars or absolutely hardcounter something.

Just that there are people running around with torugs infused oblivion + shieldbreaker doing nothing but light attacks marks two problems:
Shields are too good (evaluate which scenarios).
The counters available are too good when all used together.

Same goes for soulassault against medium armor.

Hardcounters in general are not desireable in a game like eso as they only create a frustrating gameplay experience.

lucky_Sage · August 2017

Top Tier

balance should start with cp removed for a couple weeks how everything works with out cp arenas arnt enough most bgs are to one sided I have yet to see 3 good pre made groups in one match. the balance classes the re add cp see what happens for a couple weeks.

idk · August 2017

Top Tier

Morgul667 wrote: »

Both ?

Zos should, and from what I have seen does, get information from across the spectrum, however, balancing for inefficient builds will not balance the game.

Granted, true balance is a myth and with as many variables as there are in ESO it's even harder and I question how effectively Zos analyzes data they have available.

DeadlyRecluse · August 2017

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Yes.

Upon reflection, no.