PVP Balance - Should ZOS listen to Top Tier or Casuals?

amir412

Not much explination needed,
When ZOS buff / nerf stuff, do you think they should listen more to experience top tier pvpers, or casuals to give em chance to compete?
(Suggestions from the community about sets, overperformed mechanics, skills, etc)
(:

Morgul667

Both ?

Mojomonkeyman

Top Tier

This question has been answered over the course of the past 30 years across several pvp titles:

Competitive pvp games can only be balanced at the level of play where the least number of mistakes is being made. Two flawless players competing in a series of matches, where both play perfect can be very certain that whatever outcome they achieve is due to how the game's mechanics are balanced. That's valuable info for any game developer to base decisions on.

As soon as players are starting to make mistakes, you can never know how the situation would have ended IF those mistakes wouldn't have happened. The only level of play where balance might even become deciding factor, contrary to the number of mistakes being made, is (almost) flawless play.

So, naturally, the only level of play you can possibly balance for is the top.

Qbiken

Why not both?

Asmael

Question: how do you know a PvPer is top tier? At which point do you consider one's feedback to be worth? What kind of knowledge does said player need to have about his own class as well as others?

At this point, you realize that the very definition of "top tier" is subjective, and cannot properly limit the field of "top tier" players by nothing else but artificial ingame factors that may or may not be good enough to properly separate players.

And that's not mentioning that you are basically ignoring the majority of players - not exactly the smartest business decision a company can do either, regardless of actual balance issues.

TL;DR: in theory, you'd ask top tier players for PvP balance suggestions, in practice, you cannot give a proper definition of "being top tier", thus you gotta ask everyone.

Mojomonkeyman

Top Tier

Asmael wrote: »

Question: how do you know a PvPer is top tier? At which point do you consider one's feedback to be worth? What kind of knowledge does said player need to have about his own class as well as others?

At this point, you realize that the very definition of "top tier" is subjective, and cannot properly limit the field of "top tier" players by nothing else but artificial ingame factors that may or may not be good enough to properly separate players.

And that's not mentioning that you are basically ignoring the majority of players - not exactly the smartest business decision a company can do either, regardless of actual balance issues.

TL;DR: in theory, you'd ask top tier players for PvP balance suggestions, in practice, you cannot give a proper definition of "bing top tier", thus you gotta ask everyone.

That's what leagues, ladders, tourneys and MMR are usually for. In combo with quality insights ingame or web platforms. See team liquid & starcraft (or mobas) for reference. I was frequent user of that site for about 10 years and your balance related posts would simply not get published if you were not known to understand the game (being in top positions on ladder, placing high in tourneys, etc.).

It's actually rather easy. And those games still retain a healthy low-mid end customer base (skill wise). Because, they are actually reasonably well balanced and it is desirable for people to take the time and improve.

Asmael

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Question: how do you know a PvPer is top tier? At which point do you consider one's feedback to be worth? What kind of knowledge does said player need to have about his own class as well as others?

At this point, you realize that the very definition of "top tier" is subjective, and cannot properly limit the field of "top tier" players by nothing else but artificial ingame factors that may or may not be good enough to properly separate players.

And that's not mentioning that you are basically ignoring the majority of players - not exactly the smartest business decision a company can do either, regardless of actual balance issues.

TL;DR: in theory, you'd ask top tier players for PvP balance suggestions, in practice, you cannot give a proper definition of "bing top tier", thus you gotta ask everyone.

That's what leagues, ladders, tourneys and MMR are usually for. In combo with quality insights ingame or web platforms. See team liquid & starcraft (or mobas) for reference. I was frequent user of that site for about 10 years and your balance related posts would simply not get published if you were not known to understand the game (being in top positions on ladder, placing high in tourneys, etc.).

It's actually rather easy. And those games still retain a healthy low-mid end customer base (skill wise). Because, they are actually reasonably well balanced and it is desirable for people to take the time and improve.

It is rather "easy" (hint: actually it's pretty darn long to do, if you want to do a proper job) to balance SC/SC2 and MOBAs because we have a single competitive field mode with a limited number of factors for fights in a controlled environment. Except ESO is an MMO, not a MOBA/RTS or else, and has no proper MMR for battlegrounds, no ranking for duels, no eSport scene nor professional play, not specific consideration / ranking for open world play.

How do you balance ESO? Around BGs? Cyrodiil leaderboard? Duels? 1/2vX and outnumbered play? Even teams in Cyrodiil? According to which rulesets?

I am not saying it's not possible at all, what I am saying is that we don't currently have the tools (be it proper MMR or data on gear/class/ability/anything usage/efficiency, group composition for different sizes, matchmaking stats...) to make proper balance decisions, nor what is/are the competitive field(s) considered.

Mojomonkeyman

Top Tier

Asmael wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

Question: how do you know a PvPer is top tier? At which point do you consider one's feedback to be worth? What kind of knowledge does said player need to have about his own class as well as others?

At this point, you realize that the very definition of "top tier" is subjective, and cannot properly limit the field of "top tier" players by nothing else but artificial ingame factors that may or may not be good enough to properly separate players.

And that's not mentioning that you are basically ignoring the majority of players - not exactly the smartest business decision a company can do either, regardless of actual balance issues.

TL;DR: in theory, you'd ask top tier players for PvP balance suggestions, in practice, you cannot give a proper definition of "bing top tier", thus you gotta ask everyone.

That's what leagues, ladders, tourneys and MMR are usually for. In combo with quality insights ingame or web platforms. See team liquid & starcraft (or mobas) for reference. I was frequent user of that site for about 10 years and your balance related posts would simply not get published if you were not known to understand the game (being in top positions on ladder, placing high in tourneys, etc.).

It's actually rather easy. And those games still retain a healthy low-mid end customer base (skill wise). Because, they are actually reasonably well balanced and it is desirable for people to take the time and improve.

It is rather "easy" (hint: actually it's pretty darn long to do, if you want to do a proper job) to balance SC/SC2 and MOBAs because we have a single competitive field mode with a limited number of factors for fights in a controlled environment. Except ESO is an MMO, not a MOBA/RTS or else, and has no proper MMR for battlegrounds, no ranking for duels, no eSport scene nor professional play, not specific consideration / ranking for open world play.

How do you balance ESO? Around BGs? Cyrodiil leaderboard? Duels? 1/2vX and outnumbered play? Even teams in Cyrodiil? According to which rulesets?

I am not saying it's not possible at all, what I am saying is that we don't currently have the tools (be it proper MMR or data on gear/class/ability/anything usage/efficiency, group composition for different sizes, matchmaking stats...) to make proper balance decisions, nor what is/are the competitive field(s) considered.

I completely agree. That's why many others and me as well asked for decent mmr mechanics in battlegrounds, which represents in my opinion the most meaningful & controlled environment to identify players who could give valuable input regarding pvp mechanics.

amir412

Top Tier

Qbiken wrote: »

Why not both?

Cuz casuals and top tier dont perform the same in pvp, there is a huge gap between em.

Cillion3117

Both.

WildWilbur

ZOS should ban everyone who ever killed me, nerf everyone I killed not fast enough and give cake to the few people I like.

So both I think...

amir412

Top Tier

Both is not an option, its not a black or white thread.
I wrote "...do you think they should listen more to experience..."

Ragnaroek93

Top Tier

I would say both but more with direction into top tier PvP because it would make the game more competitive and encourage players to become better.

KingJ

Top Tier

Listening to casuals like Wrobel got us proc sets so let's not repeat that mistake.

thankyourat

Top Tier

It should be balance around the best players but the problem is there is no way to tell who is the best. Most players on the leaderboard in cyrodill are more group oriented. I don't know if i would consider anyone of them a top tier individual player. Battlegrounds isn't really all that competitive either. The game needs like a dueling que where you can que up for random ranked duels this way you can't change you build depending on who you are facing, and it could rank you by class as well

BNOC

Top Tier

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

This question has been answered over the course of the past 30 years across several pvp titles:

Competitive pvp games can only be balanced at the level of play where the least number of mistakes is being made. Two flawless players competing in a series of matches, where both play perfect can be very certain that whatever outcome they achieve is due to how the game's mechanics are balanced. That's valuable info for any game developer to base decisions on.

As soon as players are starting to make mistakes, you can never know how the situation would have ended IF those mistakes wouldn't have happened. The only level of play where balance might even become deciding factor, contrary to the number of mistakes being made, is (almost) flawless play.

So, naturally, the only level of play you can possibly balance for is the top.

Literally, that's it.

Sandman929

ZOS should listen to as many as they realistically can. Many "top tier" players are interested in preserving broken mechanics or over-performing aspects of the game (ever notice someone getting told to "shhhh " when talking about a build?) and most if not all newer players, while they don't understand the underlying mechanics very well they know when they're having fun or when they're completely frustrated. It's not good for a game when long term players leave and it's worse for a game when new players are completely turned off from the experience.

IMO ZOS simply needs to rethink a great many ideas about their game and follow through with their vision while listening to what the player base says and ideally acknowledging concerns expressed when possible. I don't post a complaint on the forums expecting ZOS to change to my whims but on the rare occasion that they at least respond it lets me know they're listening.

ZOS absolutely puzzles me in so many ways though. They know they have performance issues and they continue to add new ways to stress servers further (AoE mobs/Destro Ultis/spawn little volcanos every 2 seconds/AoE Caps still here), and part of their solution to this is to hide ally animations which to me is a little too smoke-and-mirrors and makes the game feel somewhat cheap and less immersive.

Anyway, I'll drone on for hours. ZOS should listen to all and do the bidding of neither.

Beardimus

NEITHER

Go off data

Forums whines and streamers wrecked HotR by screaming about meta when ZOS wanted none = nerfs to crit, MS, Shadow....

buttaface

Neither.

1. They should ignore almost entirely what people with thousands of forum posts want, casual or otherwise, because those people are usually advocating for their particular playstyle in the guise of "helpful feedback." Listening to them is like listening to drunks in a bar as to when they should be cut off from further drinks. This has been a fact since the dawn of MMOs, and you can see it daily here in dozens-hundreds of posts. The recent shield stacker whining about oblivion damage resulting in its overnerf is a prime example.
2. They should ignore almost entirely what people with hundreds-thousands of hours pvping want because those people are geared with macro keyboards, gaming mouse, and a large percentage of them exploit, unlike 90% of the paying player base.

Both of those groups take video games -way- too seriously.

They should actively poll only paying customers, listen most to subscribers and people who buy crowns with respect to most any direction of the game. This game, like almost all other MMOs since WOW will -never- be some uber competitive top tier pvp game because it has sticky aim, tab target and laughable parkour. Moreover it doesn't even have any true asset control pvp, just flipping back and forth with no significant benefit to players and guilds who consistently hold assets... unlike real asset control games. It will -always- be a casual game despite how much tryhards want to make it into some showcase for their "skillz." Go play a tactical shooter that actually requires skill and movement in three axes if you want that. This game isn't and will never be that.

So in short do what the $$ want in all aspects of the game that will satisfy the most paying players and gin up revenue. ESO is a great, fun, casual game, especially in pvp, and will always be so. Don't try to make it into something it isn't.

Drazkyth

Top Tier

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

This question has been answered over the course of the past 30 years across several pvp titles:

Competitive pvp games can only be balanced at the level of play where the least number of mistakes is being made. Two flawless players competing in a series of matches, where both play perfect can be very certain that whatever outcome they achieve is due to how the game's mechanics are balanced. That's valuable info for any game developer to base decisions on.

As soon as players are starting to make mistakes, you can never know how the situation would have ended IF those mistakes wouldn't have happened. The only level of play where balance might even become deciding factor, contrary to the number of mistakes being made, is (almost) flawless play.

So, naturally, the only level of play you can possibly balance for is the top.

"where both play perfect"

This is just not possible.

bubbygink

Top Tier

Ideally for me ZOS would balance PVP around top-tier no-cp Battlegrounds - as in 3 high quality premade teams going at it. This is where the most even, highest level of PVP competition takes place. And to ZOS's credit, I feel that Battlegrounds are actually very balanced. Sorcs with endless fury are annoying in death match but otherwise classes seem to be on relatively equal footing.

Merlin13KAGL

To phrase your question another way:

Which set of players should ZoS ignore?

Doesn't sound as pleasant when you put it that way, does it?

I would think balance, by definition would cover both groups. You assemble the skills/gear and compare it. Then player difference is simply player skill, as it should be.

DeadlyRecluse

Yes.

Mojomonkeyman

Top Tier

Drazkyth wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

This question has been answered over the course of the past 30 years across several pvp titles:

Competitive pvp games can only be balanced at the level of play where the least number of mistakes is being made. Two flawless players competing in a series of matches, where both play perfect can be very certain that whatever outcome they achieve is due to how the game's mechanics are balanced. That's valuable info for any game developer to base decisions on.

As soon as players are starting to make mistakes, you can never know how the situation would have ended IF those mistakes wouldn't have happened. The only level of play where balance might even become deciding factor, contrary to the number of mistakes being made, is (almost) flawless play.

So, naturally, the only level of play you can possibly balance for is the top.

"where both play perfect"

This is just not possible.

I was providing a hypotethical event to further explain the sentence before. Key point is "least number of mistakes".

Mojomonkeyman

Top Tier

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

To phrase your question another way:

Which set of players should ZoS ignore?

Doesn't sound as pleasant when you put it that way, does it?

I would think balance, by definition would cover both groups. You assemble the skills/gear and compare it. Then player difference is simply player skill, as it should be.

I've never understood that way of thinking. Those "sets of players", "groups", "skill tiers" however you want to call it are not set in stone.

Skill is not a static factor. It's constantly moving every second you play. That's the beauty within, me being low end today, doesn't mean I can't be top tier tomorrow. Balance is just providing somewhat reasonable frameworks to help ensuring that my efforts will be rewarded and me doing fewer mistakes equals to better results.

PureEnvelope35

Casuals

amir412 wrote: »

Not much explination needed,
When ZOS buff / nerf stuff, do you think they should listen more to experience top tier pvpers, or casuals to give em chance to compete?
(Suggestions from the community about sets, overperformed mechanics, skills, etc)
(:

Voted casuals just to ruin amir's post

CyrusArya

Top Tier

When Porsche designs a coupe or Rolex designs a timepiece, do you think they build to the specifications, needs, and wants of casual peasantry or to those who seek to push the product to its limits? To those artist, designers, and machinists to whom these products are a labor of love, what appeals more? Seeing the display of grace and power that their product is capable of showcasing or watching their work linger in mediocrity? To the fandom of beautiful products and the activities associated with them, what appeals more? What captures their imagination? Because ultimately passion and awe is what gives life flavor and purpose.

Me personally? I'd rather watch a 911 turbo gripping the edges of a track at 100 miles per hour than than a toyota corolla going to the grocery store to buy milk and eggs. Id rather revel in the flawless and seamless movement of a Rolex as it fluidly demonstrates the flow of time rather than have to bear the mind numbing 'tick, tock' of a bargain bin watch.

I prefer excellence. And you do not attain excellence by catering to the lowest common denominator.

That being said, the realist in me understands that this is a video game and not a luxury product meant to highlight finesse. For this product to be profitable, it needs to have appeal to a much wider cross section of the consumer base than a Porsche or Rolex. But that does not mean the pursuit of excellence has to fall to the wayside.

The best solution, in my opinion, is to cater to both. Such that high end top tier performance is possible, but that entertainment and satisfactory performance is available to all to enjoy.

Sorry for the rambling rumination, I'm bored at work.

TL;DR: Got to cater to both. If either end is neglected, something vital is lost.

Taleof2Cities

Both.

The top tier PvP players are what drive the ideas and changes needed in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

The PvP casuals are the largest player base ...

MehrunesFlagon

Top Tier

I always have to say top tier because while in both there are people they know,and don't know what they are doing. I have to be inclined to say that it's much less frequent with the top tier. Not meaning streamers by top tier either.

Avran_Sylt

Both.

More Experience: Mechanics Changes (Set Balance, Ability Balance)
Less Experience: Gameplay Changes (I.E. Battlegrounds Relic Carrier Debuff)

WuffyCerulei

Shoulda added a both option. Both sides have pretty good opinions about things in pvp. There are some things top players love that less skilled players hate, and vice versa. The top few people don't reflect the entire community.