Compensation for time lost
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Darcwolf✭✭✭lets see, you pay 15 a month, I have been at work all day so I don't know how long it's been down, lets says 12 hours and be generous. So 30 days in a month, and you pay 15 a month, so that's 50 cents a day, lets cut that in half now to 12 hours. How would you like to receive your 25 cents, by check? money order? credit to your account?1 -
Kahsa✭✭✭Some were referencing Blizzard, and they do not always compensate--depends on the amount of time, etc. SWTOR, GW2,, etc., often have similar issues with no form of refund unless it were a full day or similar. Blizzard and FF14 do it because you PAY to play. It is a game sub. ESO has no game sub. ESO+ is paying for something else. The game is B2P.
Also, many posts here said there is no real-world equivalent where someone would have downtime and accept it, keep coming back, and not demand and expect compensation: Electric Power is often out. Now, while you are billed by how much you use, and assuming the power is out, you are using none so not billed, you do not get any kind of special compensation.
Likewise, a subscription for ESO+ is NOT paying for the game--it is for bonuses listed under the the ESO+ page. The game itself is B2P, in short, there is no compensation for something that is free.
I agree it's annoying sometimes, but I'm not one of those people raging at the ticket counter for free stuff when a flight is delayed a couple hours.
-Edited by Kahsa on August 18, 2017 6:51AM0 -
theher0not✭✭✭✭✭And so the entitlement threads begin...
Lets say you went to a resturant and bought a meal, but they never provided it (or they just gave you half of what you paid for) would you be fine with that? if not then how can you be fine with allowing gameing companies to pay for things not available?
It doesn't matter weither someone payed 1 dollar or one hundread, if someone pays for something they should get it and be compensated if the seller is unable to provide it.2 -
Kahsa✭✭✭theher0not wrote: »
Again, you didn't pay for game time. ESO+ is for other bonuses. The game is B2P, basically free to play. Blizzard and FF14 may give compensation, but they require mandatory subscription.
Edited by Kahsa on August 18, 2017 6:52AM0 -
Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Read the Service Terms and Agreement ZOS covered their arse on down time. You will not get reimbursed.0 -
MakoFore✭✭✭✭✭
✭theyre under no legal obligation to cover or recompense- but it would go a mile for goodwill considering now we re upon our 5th hour- prime time in oceania - on a friday after noon after work- thats peak hours- and friday morning on the west coast of america. if netflix we re say down this long- id imagine we d be looked after. i know netflix is a bigger company- but hey- i give zos 15 bucks a month- plus crown crates- and i give netflix 10 bucks a month. just sayin- for the money we re giving these guys- the service has been a bit crap. they got a game i cant help but love- i m stuck with it like a marriage. but i wish it would treat me better.3 -
Lenithriel✭✭I'm a firm believer in getting what you paid for, except we also signed a contract with them when we made our accounts, this being part of that. We paid them money but we were never promised anything other than the game will work sometimes maybe....
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Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »
So when your car breaks down do they give you some cash to make up for the down time?
False premise. You don't have downtime when your car breaks down. Dealerships immediately deliver a temporary vehicle to an address of your choice and typically comp you some future planned maintenance.
Either you have never purchased a new car or you are buying ford pinto knockoffs....
You are still comparing the texture of a granite stone to the taste of a fried egg sandwich. Basically you are claiming if I sent someone a message using the paid version of google it could potentially affect every person that has a google account.
Utter nonsense @kargen27 - I am saying the paid service has a different reliability than the free service.You know this isn't true. With ESO though it is true. Redundancy isn't an answer when redundancy would mean less interaction in a game designed specifically for interaction.
You don't appear to have any understanding of redundancy failover. It does not limit interaction in any way. It provides a bridge while root cause analysis is performed on the failed server instance(s). The servers for ESO don't fail immediately after a patch....
All you have to do to understand how reliable service without downtime can be provided is look to other MMOs.Oh and it took me maybe eight seconds to find examples of wide spread down times with the business service. Some lasted for hours.
And if it exceeds Google's 99.9% uptime guarantee, they comp you your payments for that month.
This thread is not about whether unreasonable downtime occurs. It's about compensation for the downtime when you pay the subscription fee....
Actually what you said, and I quote, "And you obviously use the free service. If you used the business level service you would know it never goes down due to failover redundancy."
"never goes down"
<sigh> https://uptime.is/ - 99.9% uptime equates to less than 9 hours out of 2,080 hours or a full year. This is considered 'never" in most industries, including IT. It's insignificant. Compare ZoS' unplanned downtime just this week...and you are correct this thread is about compensation for downtime so why did you bring Google into it? A couple of hours of downtime doesn't equate something that should be compensated. Participation ribbons is what brought us to this kind of false entitlement.
and the granite/egg sandwich still applies. If you have the background you claim you know this...
I bring Google into this because it is a single example of the SLA's provided to consumers for complex internet services in the contemporary setting. In other words, it's support for my claim that ZoS chooses to assume the risk of excessive downtime in order to increase profits. If they so desired, they could reach 99.9% uptime. They don't, in large part due to uninformed consumers that believe getting what you pay for involves entitlement...
I also mentioned, as does the OP, that other MMOs provide more reliable service (and OP also asserted that WoW compensates players for downtime). Limiting your attempted rebuttal to Google is, at best, intellectually dishonest.
As to a couple of hours of downtime not needing to be compensated, you clearly started playing this game today.... If only a couple of hours of unplanned downtime occurred in a given year, even the most consumer friendly posters would not be talking about compensation. As it is, if you add up all the unplanned downtime by ZoS in the last twelve months, it probably stretches into weeks. Do you even know how much unplanned downtime has occurred JUST THIS WEEK??? You can't isolate the request from the context.
In general, I am completely flabbergasted by the passive tolerance attitude by people in these forums. It's akin to the fatalistic, post-communism mentality in Russia. Can you provide an example of another industry that could ever get away with the downtime inflicted on gamers? I can't. It's far from clear that the amount of downtime inflicted on ESO customers is reasonable even within the gaming industry.
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theher0not✭✭✭✭✭Read the Service Terms and Agreement ZOS covered their arse on down time. You will not get reimbursed.
the ToS also says that they can ban anyone for any reason or even without a reason, does that mean they should randomly start banning people?theher0not wrote: »
Again, you didn't pay for game time. ESO+ is for other bonuses. The game is B2P, basically free to play. Blizzard and FF14 may give compensation, but they require mandatory subscription.
I never subbed because I don't trust the devs to provide the service I'd be paying for. I am just saying that compensating people is the right thing to do, and that if this where to happen anywhere else outside of the gamming "community" it'd cause a major outrage.2 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Servers have been down more than they've been up this week. That's pretty ridiculous for a game that's in it's 4th year.
Don't lie.
It's been like 20-24 hours. Out of 96.
It's been up around 300% more than down.0 -
Cocorocho✭✭✭letsdothedungeonslow wrote: »There is simply no other equivalent I can think of when you pay for a service and a significant amount of the time the service is not available, often without any explanation.
If you leased a car, and one day you went to get in it, and it wasn't there or wouldn't start, and instead there was a sign that said 'Down for maintenance' and you weren't offered any explanation or compensation, people wouldn't tolerate it.
To me, this is just a sign that as a whole, gamers are way too accepting of being shafted.
Its not the gamers, its the Fanboys pretty much. This is not the first and won't be the last as long as these guys are around, they don't understand its not about money but customer satisfaction.1 -
Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Sorry sir, but you are wrong. I sent my money for an exact game time which was 6 months of subscription for me last time.Again, you didn't pay for game time. ESO+ is for other bonuses.
No idea why this conversation goes in a direction to compensate in real money, this not gonna happen for sure. But if it was considered to compensate only time when the game was unavailable because of the developer, the solution is quick and easy. I'm not an IT speciallist, but if ZOS can so easily manage the subscription period time, I believe they also can add the lost hours to all accounts by some subprogram or script. If only the community was speaking one voice. But then I don't understand why so many people would not want a free time added to their subscriptions. People are weird, don't want the free time they deserve.
The rules we all accepted with game are okay and valid, but I agree to these voices that we as customers have the moral right to keep influencing on the seller (ZOS) to change the rules if they give benefits only to ZOS. The benefits should be given to both sides. It's simple but only when all speak one voice
PC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."2 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭theher0not wrote: »
Again, you didn't pay for game time. ESO+ is for other bonuses. The game is B2P, basically free to play. Blizzard and FF14 may give compensation, but they require mandatory subscription.
Yup, but those bonuses are for 30 day (depending on which sub you bought of course) and when added up, the maintenance has probably only allowed around 28 or 29 days. I mean, if i wanted a 29 day sub, I'd have bought one had the option been there. Instead we're left with a 30 day one.0 -
JasonSilverSpring✭✭✭✭✭letsdothedungeonslow wrote: »There is simply no other equivalent I can think of when you pay for a service and a significant amount of the time the service is not available, often without any explanation.
If you leased a car, and one day you went to get in it, and it wasn't there or wouldn't start, and instead there was a sign that said 'Down for maintenance' and you weren't offered any explanation or compensation, people wouldn't tolerate it.
To me, this is just a sign that as a whole, gamers are way too accepting of being shafted.
Let's take that analogy and expand on it. I do lease my car. If it fails to start I have to tow it to the dealer for repairs. Perhaps that takes several days. Does my lease get extended or do I get any credit for the day's I don't have the car? No.
Anyway it is a bad analogy because no one pays for playtime. The game is free to play once bought with a one time purchase. ESO+ gives perks not playtime. And one of those perks is reduced research time which even works while the game is down.0 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭theher0not wrote: »
Again, you didn't pay for game time. ESO+ is for other bonuses. The game is B2P, basically free to play. Blizzard and FF14 may give compensation, but they require mandatory subscription.
Oh, so i can take advantage of those other bonuses when the game servers are down?
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Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Well it's not a bad analogyJasonSilverSpring wrote: »Let's take that analogy and expand on it. I do lease my car. If it fails to start I have to tow it to the dealer for repairs. Perhaps that takes several days. Does my lease get extended or do I get any credit for the day's I don't have the car? No.
Anyway it is a bad analogy because no one pays for playtime.
. The good dealer, I emphasize - a good dealer - will give you a replacement car to let you drive for the period you paid for. The bad dealer though would not give you any replacement, instead you'd see a bunch of rules and restrictions written and signed by you, giving them the right to refuse anything. The main problem is when this dealer has an exclusiveness for leasing cars and when all customers are accepting these rules without questions.
PC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."2 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JasonSilverSpring wrote: »letsdothedungeonslow wrote: »There is simply no other equivalent I can think of when you pay for a service and a significant amount of the time the service is not available, often without any explanation.
If you leased a car, and one day you went to get in it, and it wasn't there or wouldn't start, and instead there was a sign that said 'Down for maintenance' and you weren't offered any explanation or compensation, people wouldn't tolerate it.
To me, this is just a sign that as a whole, gamers are way too accepting of being shafted.
Let's take that analogy and expand on it. I do lease my car. If it fails to start I have to tow it to the dealer for repairs. Perhaps that takes several days. Does my lease get extended or do I get any credit for the day's I don't have the car? No.
Anyway it is a bad analogy because no one pays for playtime. The game is free to play once bought with a one time purchase. ESO+ gives perks not playtime. And one of those perks is reduced research time which even works while the game is down.
Stop leasing cars from Joe's hack shop on 25th and 3rd. Seriously, any reputable dealer is going to have a loaner driven out to you for your use while they (or their third party service) arrange the towing and perform maintenance. Same for every new car I have purchased, during the warranty period. It's typically written into the warranty itself. Heck, rental companies will do the same for your rental.. Like the Geico commercial... In many cases, if you were not at fault, they will also give you breaks on other costs, such as mile based maintenance.
Unless you are comparing ESO to a used car dealership that provides the minimum warranty required under lemon laws? Oh, my bad, nowadays called a pre-owned dealership...1 -
JasonSilverSpring✭✭✭✭✭
Well it's not a bad analogyJasonSilverSpring wrote: »Let's take that analogy and expand on it. I do lease my car. If it fails to start I have to tow it to the dealer for repairs. Perhaps that takes several days. Does my lease get extended or do I get any credit for the day's I don't have the car? No.
Anyway it is a bad analogy because no one pays for playtime.. The good dealer, I emphasize - a good dealer - will give you a replacement car to let you drive for the period you paid for. The bad dealer though would not give you any replacement, instead you'd see a bunch of rules and restrictions written and signed by you, giving them the right to refuse anything. The main problem is when this dealer has an exclusiveness for leasing cars and when all customers are accepting these rules without questions.
I still say it is a bad analogy since you are not paying for playtime.
Yes, my dealer does give me a loaner when under warranty but that is a different car which might not have every feature I enjoy on my car.
There is no exclusiveness here. No one forced you to accept the terms. There are plenty of other games you can play.
We are all getting what we agreed to. If you are not satisfied then cancel ESO+. It is simple as that.2 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JasonSilverSpring wrote: »I still say it is a bad analogy since you are not paying for playtime.
ESO+ doesn't pay specifically for playtime, but it does pay for something that is only available during playtime, thus downtimes affects the ability of ESO+ directly. That's it.
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DarkAedin✭✭✭✭✭JasonSilverSpring wrote: »So many white knights. Even more who missed the point of the OP completely.
If zos actually listens to the pts testers most of the bugs wouldnt have been in the release patch. Zos dont listen. So few pts test. Bugs go live bc:
Patch was released with faulty q&a.
Game taken down to fix.
(Not what paying members mindfully paid for ^^^)
Zos continues to show lack of appreciation toward its paying members by discontinueing time-for-sub pets (remember those? the monkey, the spider, the sphere, etc?). Have yet to give out anything to show appreciation since then, even though u have players paying for subs + crowns for 3 years.
Game taken down for x amount of time.
Zos doesnt giaf.
Let me paint a different scenario for u:
Zos takes game down for 5 hours. Sends everyone 1 xp scroll in mail - no cost out of zos pocket. And now the playerbase is excited bc they feel they are appreciated by zos and then throws money at zos for rando *** like crown crates, as a thanks for being appreciated consumer.
Whats healthier for the game. Rewarding ur players for sticking around?
Zos doesnt think so. And thats why the majority of the old playerbase is GONE. And those of us who are still around are waiting for a better game to jump ship to.
The only thing keeping me around is my friends.
Zos hasnt tried anything to keep me around or entice me to sub, bc all they do is make terrible decisions for the game - a different topic.
Me personally. I am nearly finished my crowns from my first year of subbing. I havent subbed since then, ive used those crowns only to purchase dlc.
Zos is a horrible company that cares only about money and not the ppl giving them the money. Track record is public.
White knighting zos for anything is so sad. Bc ur so off base, especially here.
All these players are asking for is zos showing them a little appreciation for throwing them cash month after month.
Pre coffee... why did i read the forums now
I did not miss the point. There is valid arguments about the amount of downtime. And, I feel it is totally valid to choose to not financially support the game if it is not living up to your expectations. And, I would agree it would be nice if ZOS gave us some token to recognize the issue and thank us for hanging in there (even for those that are not on ESO+).
But, to take it to the point of wanting compensation for time lost is where I disagree.
So, you and I agree on some show of appreciation at least.
But, I do not agree that ZOS is a horrible company that only cares about money. Obviously earning a profit is important to any business, but that is not all ZOS is about in my opinion. I just wish ZOS would hire a few more people like Gina. She cannot be here 24/7 and with some additional resources they could really improve communication. But, while they don't always listen to feedback on the forums there have been cases where they have.
This is one of the MANY reasons i stopped my sub. If i am paying with mind that zos does proper q&a then these downtimes wouldnt occur. Money was given to zos for this. They failed. But they do not reimburse. Even with somethings as simple as an xp scroll.
The OP is correct. He paid for something, not only did he not get it. But he wasnt even shown appreciation for what he paid for after not getting it:
Proper q & a so these downtimes dont occur.
Downtime occured due to lack of above mentioned. Something consumer pay for. Zos does nothing to compensate for thier failure of releasing a (once again) busted DLC and having to do maint multiple times.
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Defilted✭✭✭✭✭
✭Paying for a sub, does not get you anything back. Software and servers will stop working or go down. This is understood by any reasonable person. Paying for the Sub helps ZOS have the personnel on hand to fix the issue. In no way does ZOS owe anyone money if the server or the software stops working.
Just think about for a moment the president you would be setting if for example something at google stopped working for 10 min. All the paying business that have paid adds and other things would need a pro-rated 10 min money reversal. This premise would absolutely break the software/service and cloud hosting industry.XBOX NA
XBOX Series X
#NightmareBear0 -
Phlathead✭✭Every single one of you clicked Accept at the ToS screen or you would not have been allowed to play. This means every single one of you accepted the fact that ZOS does not guarantee 100% access to the game. If you are not ok with that then why did you select Accept?! Why is this so hard to understand?
This game does not run on democratic principles. There is no Bill of Rights. If you don't like this then you have one and only one option, find a different game.
Send feedback if it makes you feel any better but to believe you deserve compensation is flat out wrong.
And wow are some of these analogies so bad...0 -
ZOS_MattL✭✭✭Hey there,
We had to remove quite a lot of posts from this thread. As a result, we have decided to close this thread as it seems to be heading in an unhealthy direction.
Regards,
MattThe Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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