Compensation for time lost

Reivax · August 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

£10 a month.

A day is 33p.

So even if it's down for a whole day, you want 33p back?

I do, but I want it in shillings. 33p should be like 3 shillings, right?

idk · August 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Nobody reads the ToS (I did three years ago) and hides behind the fact it won't stand in court. How do you even know that if you did not read that? Just because someone said that blah blah blah it does not mean anything. In any case, are you going to sue them? Are you suing the electric company for those two hours you had no lights?

Generally speaking, portions of the TOS certainly wouldn't hold up in court. Portions of most TOS wouldn't.

Anything where it's stating you give up future rights for future events are totally bogus.

It's like any restaurant that puts up a "not responsible for lost items" sign at their coat check in. They actually ARE responsible, they just put that up to make you think about it and hopefully not have to deal with the issue if it arises.

That said, technically speaking, lost time to access is likely something you could sue to be compensated on an account for. It would have be unreasonable, capricious and/or incompetence. Thing is, you aren't going to sue...

Many TOS are a combination of legal boilerplate with things thrown in to dissuade behaviors.

And this is pretty much just empty words. Many says things will not hold up in court yet do nothing to prove he their words.

Easy to say. Harder to do. Especially for 50 cents.

JKorr · August 2017

twev wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

And so the entitlement threads begin...

I paid for it.
I want what I paid for.

The server is down for 3 hours?
Tack 3 hours onto the end of my sub.
I've been a sub since launch.
I've probably paid for at least a month by now that I didn't get.

This isn't entitlement.
It's having a contract adhered to and fulfilled.

You don't want the things you pay for?
Fine by me.
But don't come here virtue-signalling and expect a cookie because you're willing to give away other people's stuff.

Strange that you mention a "contract". Let's see what the Terms of Service contract that you agreed to when you installed the game says about always having access to the game......

ZeniMax does not guarantee that any Services will be available at all times, in all countries and/or all geographic locations, at any given time, or that ZeniMax will continue to offer any particular Services for any particular length of time. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content and Game Mods, for any reason.

ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify a Service at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services.

If you didn't agree to the terms of service, you weren't supposed to install the game. If you want to challenge the terms of service you agreed to, a lawyer might be your best option.

notimetocare · August 2017

Granamere wrote: »

Yes I know this has been said before but when the server is down for repairs and code fixes like this why do paying subscribers not get anything for it? Can you not take the time it is down and add it to my subscription? I understand that weekly maintenance is a part of the game and I am as a subscriber willing to pay for that but poor coding that causes down time I do not understand why I do not get anything back for it? When World of Warcraft had problems like this users were credited a day of game time. ZOS when you hear on the forums that people feel you are greedy and are only here for the money things like that do seem the tide of public opinion.

Think of it from the end user point of view.

ZOS had a problem and the game was down for me today. They would not tell me what it was but only tell me it was an exploit so I paid for the day and got nothing in return.

Or

ZOS had a problem and the game was down for me today. While they did not tell me what it was they did credit me back a day of game time since I could not play.

Which one sounds like a responsible and caring company? Which one do you think is more likely to retain customers? People like to feel that they are cared for and not left out when that happens they move on.

Please keep this constructive. This is not for bashing ZOS. If they have said something like this is coming please point me in that direction.

Read the ToS. You agreed that you may not always be able to play.
Enjoy

Bouldercleave · August 2017

twev wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

And so the entitlement threads begin...

I paid for it.
I want what I paid for.

This isn't entitlement.
It's having a contract adhered to and fulfilled.

LOL You need to read the TOS. That is your "contract".

DMuehlhausen · August 2017

Granamere wrote: »

Yes I know this has been said before but when the server is down for repairs and code fixes like this why do paying subscribers not get anything for it? Can you not take the time it is down and add it to my subscription? I understand that weekly maintenance is a part of the game and I am as a subscriber willing to pay for that but poor coding that causes down time I do not understand why I do not get anything back for it? When World of Warcraft had problems like this users were credited a day of game time. ZOS when you hear on the forums that people feel you are greedy and are only here for the money things like that do seem the tide of public opinion.

Think of it from the end user point of view.

ZOS had a problem and the game was down for me today. They would not tell me what it was but only tell me it was an exploit so I paid for the day and got nothing in return.

Or

ZOS had a problem and the game was down for me today. While they did not tell me what it was they did credit me back a day of game time since I could not play.

Which one sounds like a responsible and caring company? Which one do you think is more likely to retain customers? People like to feel that they are cared for and not left out when that happens they move on.

Please keep this constructive. This is not for bashing ZOS. If they have said something like this is coming please point me in that direction.

It's in the EULA that there will be downtime. This is why. You pay to support the hardware, and development of the game. Not to guarantee 100% up time which is impossible anyway.

JackDaniell · August 2017

Playing site beta, if I got all that server downtime back it would be 6 months worth

idk · August 2017

generalmyrick wrote: »

to me it reads like a contract,

for 15 bucks a month zos agrees to deliver to me the ability to play their game.

breach of contract = minor refund.

@generalmyrick

And there has not been a breach of contract concerning the games availability so no refund should be expected. Certain none isn't forthcoming.

generalmyrick · August 2017

TO ME it reads like a contract! TO ME. :-)

DaveMoeDee · August 2017

When you subscribe, down time is assumed.

Sigtric · August 2017

generalmyrick wrote: »

TO ME it reads like a contract! TO ME. :-)

So since you lack reading comprehension you deserve a refund?

Rocki · August 2017

If you pay for X days of ESO Plus, you should receive X days of ESO Plus. Those of us in EU pretty much missed a whole day yesterday. It's not unreasonable to expect for ESO Plus subscribers to have it extended a day to compensate, any other half decent MMO would have done it already. People should get what they've paid for.

Tan9oSuccka · August 2017

No. They don't owe us anything.

No mention of the them kindly giving away free Dwarven Crates though.

I rather enjoy the Midnight Ordinator costume and Dwarven Eyebrow shields.

Shardan4968 · August 2017

Nice weather we have today...

Sigtric · August 2017

Rocki wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Rocki wrote: »

Wasn't it more like 3pm-10pm UK time? Pretty much the entire day for someone with a job.

That's your schedule, not ZOS'.

Well maybe but a company with half decent customer service would recognise that and give the customer what they paid for.

Nobody expects 100% uptime. What I expect is for the customer to be fairly compensated for when the service they've paid for isn't provided, regardless of whether or not they're obligated by the ToS/EULA.

Blizzard frequently gave out 'free' subscription days if there was unexpected downtime.

Let's take what you're saying to the extreme and see if you stand by it. They're not obligated to provide any compensation for downtime, right? What if there was some hypothetical disaster that brought ESO down for a month and the servers were inaccessible for that time. The ToS says they don't owe us anything so no problem, they just keep all that ESO Plus money and *** the customer, right?

Downtime for 1 month is not the same as a few hours every week for maintenance, scheduled or otherwise. In this case, things needed fixed. We got crybabies droning on everyday yelling 'ZOS FIX YOUR GAME' and then when they try we get the other crybabies 'ZOS YOU OWE ME MY 3 PENNIES FOR THAT DOWNTIME'. It's tiring.

So, thirty days downtime? You and I both know that is a very different circumstance. You can postulate all you want that they'd treat the customer in some unsatisfactory manner like you seem to believe is going on now all you want, but the bottom line is the publishers of ESO aren't stupid and an extreme situation would be handled if it was within their power. (I guess it depends what kind of disaster you're talking about?)

Further, your ESO Plus membership doesn't have anything to do with accessing the servers nor does it have any change on the EULA you agreed to, and specifically regarding their statement on uptime.

If you disagree with it, or don't feel you're getting what you paid for, stop being dumb with your money and change what you're doing.

Sigtric · August 2017

I also find it funny the argument for compensation has the word 'fair' thrown around. Fair would be the $.02 an hour, not 400 crowns. Not an extra day.

That sweet sweet 10cent discount on your next monthly Plus fee for yesterdays maintenance.

idk · August 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Nobody reads the ToS (I did three years ago) and hides behind the fact it won't stand in court. How do you even know that if you did not read that? Just because someone said that blah blah blah it does not mean anything. In any case, are you going to sue them? Are you suing the electric company for those two hours you had no lights?

Generally speaking, portions of the TOS certainly wouldn't hold up in court. Portions of most TOS wouldn't.

Anything where it's stating you give up future rights for future events are totally bogus.

It's like any restaurant that puts up a "not responsible for lost items" sign at their coat check in. They actually ARE responsible, they just put that up to make you think about it and hopefully not have to deal with the issue if it arises.

That said, technically speaking, lost time to access is likely something you could sue to be compensated on an account for. It would have be unreasonable, capricious and/or incompetence. Thing is, you aren't going to sue...

Many TOS are a combination of legal boilerplate with things thrown in to dissuade behaviors.

And this is pretty much just empty words. Many says things will not hold up in court yet do nothing to prove he their words.

Easy to say. Harder to do. Especially for 50 cents.

That's exactly the point.

However, there are class action lawsuits.

I'm just pointing out realities, reality is no one is going to challenge the wording of the TOS. That doesn't actually mean the TOS would be legally binding, of course.

It's rather moot. Non of these guys are going to get a class action suit going on the off chance that a judge and jury would find it unreasonable that Zos takes down the server to maintain the game and doesn't refund the 50 cents for a few hours lost only time.

Rocki · August 2017

Fixing the game and being compensated for downtime aren't mutually exclusive, you know that, right?

Sigtric · August 2017

Rocki wrote: »

Fixing the game and being compensated for downtime aren't mutually exclusive, you know that, right?

It doesn't really matter whether it is or isn't. It's a silly request vs the cost of what was lost yesterday. But you don't truly want fair compensation, you want more, a whole day; or others in this thread, 400 crowns. That makes it an absurd request.

I'll be fine with my ESO plus, and losing a few hours of it a week as they maintain their game for me to enjoy.

Granamere · August 2017

Hey OP here um if you read what I asked for it was for the time it was down to be added back to paying accounts. I did state that WOW used to give out a free day for events like this.

If you keep reading you will notice that I have taken suggestions and added them to possible ways to compensate the paying customer base. XP scrolls seem like an easy thing for ZOS to do.

The bottom line is currently I do not feel ZOS cares about their customer base. Maybe that is just me. Some day I will get to a point that I just way away and not look back. ZOS has the ability to change this point of view if they want or care to. As you see in this post others do feel the same way.

For the people that feel down time is just part of the game I really am glad you do. You are going to be the backbone of this game and keep it running. For other players well we will just walk away. ZOS will be wonder why and it will not be just one thing but all the little things they could and in my opinion should have done to fix it.

Nestor · August 2017

FYI: You agreed to server downtime at the will of ZOS:

6. Availability of Services and Content; Game Maintenance, Patches, Updates; Termination of Services

ZeniMax does not guarantee that any Services will be available at all times, in all countries and/or all geographic locations, at any given time, or that ZeniMax will continue to offer any particular Services for any particular length of time. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), ZeniMax reserves the right to change and update Content without notice to You. ZeniMax also reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Content, and to limit or block any request to acquire Content, including, but not limited to, Downloadable Content and Game Mods, for any reason.

ZeniMax may patch, update, or modify a Service at any time with or without notice to You. Notwithstanding the foregoing, ZeniMax has no obligation to make available any patches, updates or modifications or correct any errors or defects in the Services. ZeniMax makes no guarantees about the persistence or availability of any user names or other personas at any time and assumes no liability for lost or deleted Account data. Except as prohibited by applicable law and subject to the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), You agree that ZeniMax will not be liable for any interruption of the Services, delay or failure to perform, any loss of Content (including, but not limited to, UGC, Game Mods and Downloadable Content), and/or Account data (including, but not limited to, Character data) resulting from any causes whatsoever. ZeniMax reserves the right to offer new Services, change and/or discontinue certain Services at any time in its sole discretion.

letsdothedungeonslow · August 2017

There is simply no other equivalent I can think of when you pay for a service and a significant amount of the time the service is not available, often without any explanation.

If you leased a car, and one day you went to get in it, and it wasn't there or wouldn't start, and instead there was a sign that said 'Down for maintenance' and you weren't offered any explanation or compensation, people wouldn't tolerate it.

To me, this is just a sign that as a whole, gamers are way too accepting of being shafted.

Arbit · August 2017

a flying dragon mount would suffice

Drakkdjinn · August 2017

Tandor wrote: »

twev wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

And so the entitlement threads begin...

I paid for it.
I want what I paid for.

The server is down for 3 hours?
Tack 3 hours onto the end of my sub.
I've been a sub since launch.
I've probably paid for at least a month by now that I didn't get.

This isn't entitlement.
It's having a contract adhered to and fulfilled.

You don't want the things you pay for?
Fine by me.
But don't come here virtue-signalling and expect a cookie because you're willing to give away other people's stuff.

Thanks for confirming my point.

But do tell. When you buy a car from a dealer and at some point it needs to go in for a recall repair, do you ask the dealer for compensation because you paid for the car so you could always drive it?

No, you get a discount or even a waived maintenance fee from the dealership b/c your under warranty and paid for something that isn't *** working.

MudcrabSammich · August 2017

Everstorm wrote: »

Those ppl demanding compensation: do you sleep or go to work/school? You are paying for ESO when you're doing that as well! The outrage!

I think the point you may be missing here is that yes, a lot of us DO work, so when we set aside time to play and its not available, well... you get the idea, I hope.

I know an hour or two doesn't seem like much, if you look at isolated incidences; however, it has been down a whole lot these past few weeks, so as a paying customer, I do feel that an experience scroll or possibly a purple gem would be a wise way to show some customer appreciation and ease frustrations.

Slick_007 · August 2017

Rocki wrote: »

Like a guy said earlier in the thread, it seems insane to me that you guys are white-knighting a faceless corporation over a *** business practice that screws the consumer. There's not even a decent counter argument just "yep that's in the ToS so stfu or dont pay". Just insane.

is a 'decent' counter argument needed against an argument that itself isnt 'decent'?

it seems insane to me, that people hurl abuse at the devs on the forum yet continue to play, and even PAY to play a game they clearly hate.

idk · August 2017

Rocki wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Rocki wrote: »

Fixing the game and being compensated for downtime aren't mutually exclusive, you know that, right?

It doesn't really matter whether it is or isn't. It's a silly request vs the cost of what was lost yesterday. But you don't truly want fair compensation, you want more, a whole day; or others in this thread, 400 crowns. That makes it an absurd request.

I'll be fine with my ESO plus, and losing a few hours of it a week as they maintain their game for me to enjoy.

One day IS fair compensation if the servers are down for the almost entirety of prime time, nothing absurd about it, maybe this is your first MMO.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Not at all. It seems insane and short sighted to think that maintenance should be discouraged. I think the people complaint about this petty issue of wanting a pathetic return of a few pennies are either forum trolls or it's sad that this is the big issue that choose to take arms against.

Just lol, no one is discouraging maintenance. We're encouraging decent customer service. If it's not a big deal, just a few pennies, why don't they just add the extra day like Blizzard do? Seems like a small cost to avoid leaving a sour taste in the mouths of your customers.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Rocki wrote: »

Like a guy said earlier in the thread, it seems insane to me that you guys are white-knighting a faceless corporation over a *** business practice that screws the consumer. There's not even a decent counter argument just "yep that's in the ToS so stfu or dont pay". Just insane.

No one is "White Knighting" anything. I'm sure if the game was down for a substantial amount of time they would compensate for it. And no - 4-5 hours once a week is NOT a substantial amount of time. Inconvenient? Yes.

Well that's interesting, so you agree in principle, it just wasn't a long enough amount of time for you to consider significant. How long would it have to be for you?

Granamere wrote: »

The bottom line is currently I do not feel ZOS cares about their customer base. Maybe that is just me.

Nope.

lol, you are absolutely discouraging maintenance. You are clearly blinded to this absurd idea you cannot see it.

Your points are, well, pointless and your posts in this thread will amount to nothing. The TOS is solid and binding unless a court says otherwise and well, lol, a court is not even considering it. So enjoy talking about it all you want. now, if someone ahs the balls to actually try to do something, then that is something, otherwise, just empty words.

hamgatan · August 2017

Server unavailable almost every Monday night since launch.. Asia/Aus/NZ learns to live with it.

A new patch and one of the few ever single server downtimes in US peak time and Murricans lose their sh*t.

Lol.

Azuramoonstar · August 2017

Rocki wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Rocki wrote: »

Fixing the game and being compensated for downtime aren't mutually exclusive, you know that, right?

It doesn't really matter whether it is or isn't. It's a silly request vs the cost of what was lost yesterday. But you don't truly want fair compensation, you want more, a whole day; or others in this thread, 400 crowns. That makes it an absurd request.

I'll be fine with my ESO plus, and losing a few hours of it a week as they maintain their game for me to enjoy.

One day IS fair compensation if the servers are down for the almost entirety of prime time, nothing absurd about it, maybe this is your first MMO.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Not at all. It seems insane and short sighted to think that maintenance should be discouraged. I think the people complaint about this petty issue of wanting a pathetic return of a few pennies are either forum trolls or it's sad that this is the big issue that choose to take arms against.

Just lol, no one is discouraging maintenance. We're encouraging decent customer service. If it's not a big deal, just a few pennies, why don't they just add the extra day like Blizzard do? Seems like a small cost to avoid leaving a sour taste in the mouths of your customers.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Rocki wrote: »

Like a guy said earlier in the thread, it seems insane to me that you guys are white-knighting a faceless corporation over a *** business practice that screws the consumer. There's not even a decent counter argument just "yep that's in the ToS so stfu or dont pay". Just insane.

No one is "White Knighting" anything. I'm sure if the game was down for a substantial amount of time they would compensate for it. And no - 4-5 hours once a week is NOT a substantial amount of time. Inconvenient? Yes.

Well that's interesting, so you agree in principle, it just wasn't a long enough amount of time for you to consider significant. How long would it have to be for you?

Granamere wrote: »

The bottom line is currently I do not feel ZOS cares about their customer base. Maybe that is just me.

Nope.

you are acting like this is your first mmo.

No mmo dev team compensates for time lost during down times. They don't have to explain anything.

They loose money for compensating, as you do not compensate for 1 person, but the entire playerbase.

when ff11 was first out, and down times happen, no one cried. Why is it lately (since 2010) do people expect to be compensated for the servers going down.

Stuff happens, they run the servers 24/7, that's a lot of heat and wear/tear. People need to stop being a cry baby asking for candy -_-;;

its in the ToS, a contract you agree'ed to when you started playing. I played over 30 mmo and none of them do any sort of compensation like you claim. And the Times they do, it is over something major.

Like ff14 being absolute crap, and waived the fee for a year as they got 2.0 ready.

1 day maint. isn't worth the compensation of hundreds of thousands+ players.

kargen27 · August 2017

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

So when your car breaks down do they give you some cash to make up for the down time?

False premise. You don't have downtime when your car breaks down. Dealerships immediately deliver a temporary vehicle to an address of your choice and typically comp you some future planned maintenance.

Either you have never purchased a new car or you are buying ford pinto knockoffs....

kargen27 wrote: »

You are still comparing the texture of a granite stone to the taste of a fried egg sandwich. Basically you are claiming if I sent someone a message using the paid version of google it could potentially affect every person that has a google account.

Utter nonsense @kargen27 - I am saying the paid service has a different reliability than the free service.

kargen27 wrote: »

You know this isn't true. With ESO though it is true. Redundancy isn't an answer when redundancy would mean less interaction in a game designed specifically for interaction.

You don't appear to have any understanding of redundancy failover. It does not limit interaction in any way. It provides a bridge while root cause analysis is performed on the failed server instance(s). The servers for ESO don't fail immediately after a patch....

All you have to do to understand how reliable service without downtime can be provided is look to other MMOs.

kargen27 wrote: »

Oh and it took me maybe eight seconds to find examples of wide spread down times with the business service. Some lasted for hours.

And if it exceeds Google's 99.9% uptime guarantee, they comp you your payments for that month.

This thread is not about whether unreasonable downtime occurs. It's about compensation for the downtime when you pay the subscription fee....

Actually what you said, and I quote, "And you obviously use the free service. If you used the business level service you would know it never goes down due to failover redundancy."

"never goes down"

and you are correct this thread is about compensation for downtime so why did you bring Google into it? A couple of hours of downtime doesn't equate something that should be compensated. Participation ribbons is what brought us to this kind of false entitlement.

and the granite/egg sandwich still applies. If you have the background you claim you know this...