If, by 'Nerf', you mean - 'Balance' - then yes, they absolutely *SHOULD* nerf stuff - ALL THE TIME.

Or if your view of 'Balance' is only to buff instead - well, that's not really gonna work when you think about it.

I mean - lets give a really OTT example just to show what I mean..:

Setting the scene:
- Lets sat the game has 1000 skills and sets which can be drawn from to create a build...
- Lets say that most PVE fights are fairly balanced as is.
- But lets say that there is ONE overpowered skill on a line that every class/build can use - so everybody uses it.
- That over-performing single ability (used as part of a rotation) was causing an overall 3% dps increase for groups
- But it killed build diversity because everyone had to use it - so something needed to be done (do we agree?)

Nerf scenario:
By this, I mean, the Devs choose to nerf that one ability. So..:
- Dev's make the required code changes to reduce the effectiveness(Nerf) that one ability. Lets say it takes them a week.
- Groups' overall DPS is reduced by 3% - so content is now 3% harder (just an illustration)
- People complain about stuff being harder
- People are happy there is more build diversity.
- Next time around, Dev's look for the next over-performing 'must-have' thing to nerf. (Players should expect this, btw)

or

Buff Scenario
By this, I mean the Dev's choose to buff other stuff to an equivalent power of the over-performing ability - so last patches 'overperforming' becomes this patches 'standard'
- Dev's make changes to 999 abilities to bring them up to par. Takes them 999 weeks (20 years)
- In doing so, they break about 3% of them - resulting in 1% not working, 1% being underpowered, 1% being overpowered
- We now have 10 new overpowered things..
- Where the other 9 abilities on players bars have been buffed, overall group damage has increased by (9x3% = 27%)
- PVE now too easy, so Devs have to buff mobs (We like buffs, right) - so ALL mobs all get a 27% health increase (breaking some in the process and taking time to do)
- Next time around, due to bugs introduced - we will need to re-buff everything again... 20 years later...


I know which I'd prefer..

Honestly, I think the only problem with 'Nerfs' is with players who have the 'Glass half empty' mentality.

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Zerok wrote: »

Nerfs are needed to balance the game

This statement is wrong in a lot of ways.

Firstly, nerfing is a means by which to bind or bring down something which is already working very well and is being enjoyed by a percentage of people. By nerfing we are stepping on their fun. How would you like it if that favorited skill you used suddenly became worthless? Nerfs should only occur in extreme cases, such is the case with the NMS crit nerf.

Secondly, going the buff route, means other players fun abilities and gear items get better to compete with those that are already great.

Thirdly, balance also comes in the form of abilities and gear keeping checks and balances on other gear sets and abilities. Like how Negate(a ~200 point ult) is very strong in PVP and hard counters a lot of gears and magic abilities. So now with HOTR we get an item set that counters that every 35~ seconds. We finally get an item that has counter play to negate.

Ahh, now, see... this is where we have a different view of what the word means.

I understand 'Nerf' to simply mean to make something less effective. Regardless of its current level of effectiveness, or whether the result leaves it trash or not, I see a Nerf as just a simple weakening of its effectiveness.

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Zerok wrote: »

Nerfs are needed to balance the game

This statement is wrong in a lot of ways.

Firstly, nerfing is a means by which to bind or bring down something which is already working very well and is being enjoyed by a percentage of people. By nerfing we are stepping on their fun. How would you like it if that favorited skill you used suddenly became worthless? Nerfs should only occur in extreme cases, such is the case with the NMS crit nerf.

Secondly, going the buff route, means other players fun abilities and gear items get better to compete with those that are already great.

Thirdly, balance also comes in the form of abilities and gear keeping checks and balances on other gear sets and abilities. Like how Negate(a ~200 point ult) is very strong in PVP and hard counters a lot of gears and magic abilities. So now with HOTR we get an item set that counters that every 35~ seconds. We finally get an item that has counter play to negate.

Ahh, now, see... this is where we have a different view of what the word means.

I understand 'Nerf' to simply mean to make something less effective. Regardless of its current level of effectiveness, or whether the result leaves it trash or not, I see a Nerf as just a simple weakening of its effectiveness.

Yeah, this is why I would much much rather a nerf be used in extreme cases. Because there is an argument to be made as to whether or not a nerf is "just enough" or "too much". A few examples? Eye of the Storm and Soul Assult come to mind as PVP example.

If we want to back peddal on this even further, all of what we are saying in regards to the concept of the "nerfing" mentality-- ALL of it is subjective to the Learn2Play.

This poll to me is silly. The game will constantly be changing as long as it is be developed. A more interesting question and one that you hit upon in this poll is should changes to the game be done separately when considering PVE and PVP. Although this would require a separation of development resources and more than likely and expansion of needed resources to the company. I believe that the overall balance of the game would be much improved as there would not be one side of the game always getting buffed or nerfed because of changes to the other. This would also allow for a more specialised decision tree for changing the game and make the scope of those changes easier to handle.

Based on what I understand about businesses today. I find highly unlikely that a decision that clearly has an end user positives would ever be done. Almost all business that I have worked for are very quarter to quarter profit driven. This change would require a potential loss in a whatever quarter ZOS made the change in. Even if the long term success made them more money later most businesses have a very hard time seeing beyond the end of the current quarter which makes changes like this unlikely.

i want what the top players have but dont want the hassle of getting it so i will scream and stomp my feet so they nerf those sets and all will be fine. sad.

you are exactly right. i have been getting weaker, i am as strong as i ever will be and nothing to strive for. i use to run trials for the top sets and now they suck, no point in doing trials anymore.

what about 30 cp increases, we gave you 30 more cp but lowered the value so it didnt make you stronger lol. i was
stronger in the 500s cp.

If we get more nerfs I will quit this game. And I will uninstall The Elder Nerfs: Online. Everytime nerfs and nerfs "Balance". Uhu, balance the stuff that really need. They just take random stuff and nerf it. Oh wait do you use Precise? Hey look people love PvE so we are going to nerf The Thief by some precent because we did it for PvP too eh? O hey you like templar? We don't. I mean, ESO (IMO) was AWESOME before this stupid nerfs. They are hyped to nerf everything. And yes I am pissed about this.

Ekstak21 wrote: »

If we get more nerfs I will quit this game. And I will uninstall The Elder Nerfs: Online. Everytime nerfs and nerfs "Balance". Uhu, balance the stuff that really need. They just take random stuff and nerf it. Oh wait do you use Precise? Hey look people love PvE so we are going to nerf The Thief by some precent because we did it for PvP too eh? O hey you like templar? We don't. I mean, ESO (IMO) was AWESOME before this stupid nerfs. They are hyped to nerf everything. And yes I am pissed about this.

I mean come on. These mechanics, system, engine all of it. It is Learn to play. But NOPE ZOS will screw us (old players) up and make some weird content (DLC) and name it (Chapter). Aaand ofc NERF all things BECAUSE those NOOBS will be otherwise weak and probably quit the game after 2 levels. WTH ZOS. WE (old players) did it too back in the days/years. Start from the beginning, learn, explore, build. What skills? What rotation? Never heard of it? Yeah... we all made those days. But nope.. ZOS wants that new players do need some (balance) to keep the game alive. A hell no.

There will always be nerfs, buffs, balancing in every MMO. What makes it harder in ESO is some of the decisions cannot be based simply on a skill as there are so many other factors involved from armor sets to lag to mechanics/broken mechanics and complicated even further by PvE and PvP.

In the end despite the doom and gloom of the forums (templars are dead, NB are dead... etc) the game and classes have survived and a majority of the "game ending nerfs" have hardly left even a tiny dent to classes

The biggest question is, why do we need Nerfs?

How about instead of nerfing everything into oblivion everytime, they take a look at what is underperforming and give it a slight buff.

Very few things are actually "overpowered" if you can honestly call it that.

Like this, everyone cries when a sorc kills them, everyone feels they should never die against a sorc and they should always always win so let's pick on shield stacking scum here which the forum seems to think is running rampant, despite in all my thousands of hours playing I've come across it less times than I have Eclipses so here goes.

Oblivion enchant, reworked so it does damage through shields only, no shields = No damage done / taken.

Shield stackers stop spamming them and fight properly and L2heal themselves and prevents everyone else from getting instagibbed by this stupid enchant when used with infused+Torugs.

2 birds 1 stone.

Nerf everything base game skills passives forum post the lot let's have it all especially light armour passive way too tanky for wearing cloth