Compensation for time lost
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anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »And so the entitlement threads begin...
I don't know why people think it's entitlement to expect customer treatment equivalent to any other industry. The reason ZoS doesn't comp unplanned downtime is because they have a pseudo monopoly. Like pharmaceuticals, there isn't a substantially similar alternative.
I think if an even somewhat close alternative offered to transfer your progress to their game, you would see more movement and consequently better consumer treatment... ZoS would also spend more of their huge profits to make sure this did not happen.
I stand 50/50 on that.
I understand that an MMO with millions of players and a couple megaservers is a very complex piece of both software and hardware, that it requires downtime for maintenance and fixes, sometimes unexpected/unplanned, sometimes longer than wished.
BUT...
Regardless of what's written in the TOS (we're talking customer service and retention here, not legal stuff), it's true that I'm pretty amazed at how lenient we are with a video game provider. We expect 24/7 service and no downtime from many other suppliers, and we get it most times. Our ISP for instance could never afford the downtime ZOS has. We would all call it all kind of names and switch to the competition if we did. I'm also puzzled by the amount of untested - halfbaked software that apparently goes through (and passes ?) ZOS' QA service.
So yeah... OP's questioning is perhaps a little bit over the top, but it's definitely not "entitlement". It's legit...
Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on August 17, 2017 1:05AM0 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I appreciate the people that have posted the terms of service while it is valid to think well you have agreed to this level of service I might hope the company would strive for better. Plus if customers do not ask for change and give reasons for it I doubt any change we would want will happen.
As for not understanding how this all works well I have worked in the IT industry since 1994 so I think I do understand what it takes to keep a system up 99% verses 99.999%. The dollar amount goes up greatly plus your commitment to your customers.
So you would also understand when and why a system might need to be taken down. Like what happened today for instance.
Or maybe some semblance of a clue when it comes to a persistent virtual world with thousands of people logged in and connected to it that all need to see the same thing versus an email service. Just because both things have servers don't mean they operate the same way. But OP would know that, being in IT since 1994.
But no. Cry threads for the win I guess.I appreciate the people that have posted the terms of service while it is valid to think well you have agreed to this level of service I might hope the company would strive for better. Plus if customers do not ask for change and give reasons for it I doubt any change we would want will happen.
As for not understanding how this all works well I have worked in the IT industry since 1994 so I think I do understand what it takes to keep a system up 99% verses 99.999%. The dollar amount goes up greatly plus your commitment to your customers.
So you would also understand when and why a system might need to be taken down. Like what happened today for instance.
Or maybe some semblance of a clue when it comes to a persistent virtual world with thousands of people logged in and connected to it that all need to see the same thing versus an email service. Just because both things have servers don't mean they operate the same way. But OP would know that, being in IT since 1994.
But no. Cry threads for the win I guess.
You bring an interesting point. Do you think every sword swing is kept? The amount needed to be kept is kind of minimal. Google mail service has millions of users connected 24x7. Tons more data than what eso will ever see. They are different kinds of databases but at their heart they do the exact same thing. So when you get right down to it how can Google stay up when eso can not. It boils down to design and how much money you are willing to pour into it. Through enough f5's and server hardware at it and even crappy code can be kept up and running. Now is that price point worth it? I doubt it for a game but Google wants a happy customer and how much do you pay them?
Google Mail goes down all the time. Entire sites are dedicated to tracking when and where it is down. The thing about Google Mail is your mail doesn't need to be on the same server array as my mail. So you would never know if Google Mail were down for me or even my entire area. ESO (assuming NA server) your and my data must be on the same server. We both know when there is a problem. What do you think would happen if Google Mail had to be designed so that at any time any user could real time interact with any other user real time and what one user did could have immediate impact on many other users instantly?
And you obviously use the free service. If you used the business level service you would know it never goes down due to failover redundancy.
And yes, the business service offers realtime interaction between licensees similar to a virtual environment.
People, this is not 2010, IT and coding has progressed to the point where you can provide flawless service. ZoS could easily afford it at their profit level. Downtime is a business choice. Just like their fall from grace to gambling crates, they choose to follow the lower level of service they provide.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I understand why they took it down as I stated eariler. As a paying customer I am just asking when a problem happens on their side that they compensate their customers. No I do not think they can write bug free software. Server problems will happen that is just life. Hackers will try and dos the system.
No reason for them to do so. It is pathetic that someone feel so entitled to a mere 50 cents It is equally sad that someone would want to deter Zos from doing meaningful maintenance as they should do and that, without question, is exactly what this thread is about.
This thread is about. A narrow minded, short sighted view that is just plain silly.
@Granamere Do you really feel that entitled? If 50 cents is that important to you then you need to stop playing MMOs because none of them will pay you for regular downtime needs like we experienced today, and you agreed to it being that way.
Edited by idk on August 17, 2017 1:50AM1 -
Elfbait✭✭✭Gosh what a neat idea. I think I'll ask for a subscription cost reduction to reflect the 16 hours a day that I spend sleeping and working, thus not playing ESO.
OK but seriously, does every topic in General Discussion really have to be about crying for nerfs and/or free stuff?0 -
StackonClown✭✭✭✭✭Yes I know this has been said before but when the server is down for repairs and code fixes like this why do paying subscribers not get anything for it? Can you not take the time it is down and add it to my subscription? I understand that weekly maintenance is a part of the game and I am as a subscriber willing to pay for that but poor coding that causes down time I do not understand why I do not get anything back for it? When World of Warcraft had problems like this users were credited a day of game time. ZOS when you hear on the forums that people feel you are greedy and are only here for the money things like that do seem the tide of public opinion.
Think of it from the end user point of view.
ZOS had a problem and the game was down for me today. They would not tell me what it was but only tell me it was an exploit so I paid for the day and got nothing in return.
Or
ZOS had a problem and the game was down for me today. While they did not tell me what it was they did credit me back a day of game time since I could not play.
Which one sounds like a responsible and caring company? Which one do you think is more likely to retain customers? People like to feel that they are cared for and not left out when that happens they move on.
Please keep this constructive. This is not for bashing ZOS. If they have said something like this is coming please point me in that direction.
Do we know how many accounts had action taken for the so called exploit??
tbh I think Zenny is completely FOS.
First its DDOS, now its 'exploit with accounts created in the last 2 days'... How was that a severe exploit with a 2 day old account?? only thing i can think of is botters, but I dont buy it.
The above 2 reasons 'DDOS and severe exploits' *cough* seem to be all too convenient reasons to avoid proper explanations. Beacuse 'they cant talk about it' - which is also FOS. I think they simply had a code screw up or even hardware error and are too proud/arrogant to admit it.
So the sheeple are told its an exploit and then everyone starts focusing on flower memes and sucking up to Gino Bruno. 'Oh wow look!! - she talked to me!' instead of asking some awkward questions. Anyway, whenever we tried to ask, politely also, she ignored those questions and replied to people talking about 6am breakfasts and kitten memes.Edited by StackonClown on August 17, 2017 1:58AM0 -
Mureel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It was taking long before someone post the first ''give me free stuff'' thread after maintenance...
Oi. It's not free stuff. It's give me the stuff I paid for.
I am not asking for it because meh, I can't be bothered - whatever but: IT IS NOT FREE STUFF.
It shouldn't be difficult or an issue to credit a day to all.
IDK why I'm even writing this - whatever.Edited by Mureel on August 17, 2017 2:04AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gosh what a neat idea. I think I'll ask for a subscription cost reduction to reflect the 16 hours a day that I spend sleeping and working, thus not playing ESO.
OK but seriously, does every topic in General Discussion really have to be about crying for nerfs and/or free stuff?
Yes. Did you not get the memo?0 -
Elfbait✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Gosh what a neat idea. I think I'll ask for a subscription cost reduction to reflect the 16 hours a day that I spend sleeping and working, thus not playing ESO.
OK but seriously, does every topic in General Discussion really have to be about crying for nerfs and/or free stuff?
Yes. Did you not get the memo?
I guess I missed it
That's okay though, because I am on board now. Wait, what about combination posts that cry for nerfing free stuff? Are those allowed in Gen Discussion? Because I have some ideas there too. 0 -
Granamere✭✭✭Sorry to anyone that thinks I am trolling I really am not. I just have an opinion and thought I could have an open discussion here.
I am glad to see there are a lot of people on here with a pro ZOS point of view if there were not I would be very concerned for the game. Yes I think everyone is entitled to your own point of view and I am glad to hear them. Just try to keep an open mind and listen to what others have to say.
I would give you one thing to think about if ZOS moved its model to selling minutes of game play and you only lost time that you were online playing how long do you think they would have been down today? We have seen weeks that they do not reboot and have seen how well the servers react. Yes they currently need to reboot but if that time had a direct cost to them I believe we would see a different approach.1 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »And so the entitlement threads begin...
I don't know why people think it's entitlement to expect customer treatment equivalent to any other industry. The reason ZoS doesn't comp unplanned downtime is because they have a pseudo monopoly. Like pharmaceuticals, there isn't a substantially similar alternative.
I think if an even somewhat close alternative offered to transfer your progress to their game, you would see more movement and consequently better consumer treatment... ZoS would also spend more of their huge profits to make sure this did not happen.
So when your car breaks down do they give you some cash to make up for the down time?Wreuntzylla wrote: »I appreciate the people that have posted the terms of service while it is valid to think well you have agreed to this level of service I might hope the company would strive for better. Plus if customers do not ask for change and give reasons for it I doubt any change we would want will happen.
As for not understanding how this all works well I have worked in the IT industry since 1994 so I think I do understand what it takes to keep a system up 99% verses 99.999%. The dollar amount goes up greatly plus your commitment to your customers.
So you would also understand when and why a system might need to be taken down. Like what happened today for instance.
Or maybe some semblance of a clue when it comes to a persistent virtual world with thousands of people logged in and connected to it that all need to see the same thing versus an email service. Just because both things have servers don't mean they operate the same way. But OP would know that, being in IT since 1994.
But no. Cry threads for the win I guess.I appreciate the people that have posted the terms of service while it is valid to think well you have agreed to this level of service I might hope the company would strive for better. Plus if customers do not ask for change and give reasons for it I doubt any change we would want will happen.
As for not understanding how this all works well I have worked in the IT industry since 1994 so I think I do understand what it takes to keep a system up 99% verses 99.999%. The dollar amount goes up greatly plus your commitment to your customers.
So you would also understand when and why a system might need to be taken down. Like what happened today for instance.
Or maybe some semblance of a clue when it comes to a persistent virtual world with thousands of people logged in and connected to it that all need to see the same thing versus an email service. Just because both things have servers don't mean they operate the same way. But OP would know that, being in IT since 1994.
But no. Cry threads for the win I guess.
You bring an interesting point. Do you think every sword swing is kept? The amount needed to be kept is kind of minimal. Google mail service has millions of users connected 24x7. Tons more data than what eso will ever see. They are different kinds of databases but at their heart they do the exact same thing. So when you get right down to it how can Google stay up when eso can not. It boils down to design and how much money you are willing to pour into it. Through enough f5's and server hardware at it and even crappy code can be kept up and running. Now is that price point worth it? I doubt it for a game but Google wants a happy customer and how much do you pay them?
Google Mail goes down all the time. Entire sites are dedicated to tracking when and where it is down. The thing about Google Mail is your mail doesn't need to be on the same server array as my mail. So you would never know if Google Mail were down for me or even my entire area. ESO (assuming NA server) your and my data must be on the same server. We both know when there is a problem. What do you think would happen if Google Mail had to be designed so that at any time any user could real time interact with any other user real time and what one user did could have immediate impact on many other users instantly?
And you obviously use the free service. If you used the business level service you would know it never goes down due to failover redundancy.
And yes, the business service offers realtime interaction between licensees similar to a virtual environment.
People, this is not 2010, IT and coding has progressed to the point where you can provide flawless service. ZoS could easily afford it at their profit level. Downtime is a business choice. Just like their fall from grace to gambling crates, they choose to follow the lower level of service they provide.
You are still comparing the texture of a granite stone to the taste of a fried egg sandwich. Basically you are claiming if I sent someone a message using the paid version of google it could potentially affect every person that has a google account. You know this isn't true. With ESO though it is true. Redundancy isn't an answer when redundancy would mean less interaction in a game designed specifically for interaction.
Oh and it took me maybe eight seconds to find examples of wide spread down times with the business service. Some lasted for hours.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
MakoFore✭✭✭✭✭
✭i agree- we should be compensated....
... with servers that work and a game that is stable. its been 3 *** years people. this isn't a beta game- this should be a mature game in its peak years- after bugs have been ironed out, while the game is still technically relevant to the hardware of the time, its very peak years. and it runs like a gypsy brothel. in other words- messily and cheaply... out of a creaky wagon that dips every time you ...i forgot what we were talking about.Edited by MakoFore on August 17, 2017 3:22AM1 -
Dracofyre✭✭✭✭wow, you want ZOs to hand out for down times?
just reminding you, we all signed EULA that anytime the company need to fix exploits, then we do nothing.2 -
Slick_007✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So, you're tired of people complaining when they don't get what they pay for and apply the label 'entitlement'.
Presumably, you're quite OK with handing money over for less than what is agreed.
and therein lies the heart of the matter. they are getting what they paid for, under the terms they agreed to. you seem to think its a matter of not getting what you paid for. we say you did get what you paid for.
we can only point out facts for you. we can't force you to be right. so continue arguing by all means.1 -
Pele✭✭✭✭✭We are all paying for a service. Part of that service is maintenance and fixes. What happened today was emergency maintenance and fixes. You got what you paid for.5 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭^ spot on.
I mean seriously, it's a few pennies. Who would cover the administration costs of ZOS finance team checking and making those payments? The volume of transactions alone would take time, who would pay for those staff?
We would. Most likely in increased monthly costs.
Just be realistic, you are asking a company with millions of users to compensate a few pennies here and there, it's just not realistic.
Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach2 -
malicia✭✭✭✭While I also feel that complaining about a few hours of downtime is silly, the OP's principle is valid. Will we still be happy if the downtime was a week, instead of just a few hours?
I don't think a refund is a good solution. Instead I'd suggest that ZOS give subs crowns to the value of the downtime . So, for last night's downtime, it would be about 10 cents worth of crowns.PC, EU
Not elite, not the best. Just enjoying ESO.
Not the worst either. "Casual" != "totally ignorant"
@taciti0 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, threads like this only show how addicted some people are and how badly they should get outdoors with real human beings.
With this being said, before complaining, how many of you have read the Terms of Service you accepted?"Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.4 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »Honestly, threads like this only show how addicted some people are and how badly they should get outdoors with real human beings.
With this being said, before complaining, how many of you have read the Terms of Service you accepted?
I think threads like this come more from people who actually HAVE a life. For a nolifer, 5 hours downtime means nothing, they'll catch up the next 5 hours. But for busy people, 5 hours downtime during the few hours they manage to get free can mean a whole day, several days, a whole week of not playing at all.
Also, reading TOS is really a task for people with plenty of time on their hands. And as many have already pointed out, TOS doesn't mean much and wouldn't hold in court in many countries.
As I said, I do understand both sides of the story here, but arguing "get a life" with people who simply expect the service they've been paying for makes little sense.0 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭People with a life have plenty of alternatives to ESO.
What do you do when there's a thunderstorm and a blackout? No tv, no electronics whatsoever, ...
What do you do when the train you are waiting for is a hour late?
What do you do when you planned a weekend at the beach but the weather had other plans for you?
I have a couple of hours to dedicate to ESO during the day. A week ago there was a huge thunderstorm so no lights, no computers, no internet. We made a picnic in the living room and played bingo. Nobody suicided.
Nobody reads the ToS (I did three years ago) and hides behind the fact it won't stand in court. How do you even know that if you did not read that? Just because someone said that blah blah blah it does not mean anything. In any case, are you going to sue them? Are you suing the electric company for those two hours you had no lights?
Always have a plan B. And C. And D."Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.3 -
altemriel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nope, no compensation, they can take the server down for a whole week if the need and we can not do anything about it0 -
ConeOfSilence✭✭✭✭If you read the terms you know what you are in for if you then got the sub after reading you have nothing to complain about. You chose to get the sub and you choose to hand over money even with the terms in place if you are not happy with this you have the freedom to choose to play another game and spend your money elsewhere. You are entitled to nothing.2 -
Granamere✭✭✭For the people that are concerned I do not have a life I do appreciate the concern. While this is not really on topic just to try and put this to try and remove this part of the thread. I am on vacation with the family and I had a little time yesterday that the wife and kids were off doing their thing that I could try and hop on and play. When I did, I found that because of a bug in the software I could not. If this was a normal scheduled time they would be offline then I would not have even tried to play. Do I want them to fix bugs they find yes I agree that exploits are bad and need to be fixed but this did take value away from me during the time I have paid for that I did expect to be able to use the service.
I do like the idea of XP scroll given out for down time. I think that strikes a good balance maybe for those at max CP level the scroll would increase their luck at getting items or a gold increase for and hour.
I still would prefer that they credit people back the time which they could do through a script but the main thing is that they acknowledge the problem and say customers we value you. We value your commitment to the game. We are sorry it was down but here is what we feel is appropriate compensation for that down time.0 -
Yamenstein✭✭✭✭✭I have given up on people. Seriously. Get your lives together if you're going to be on this forum complaining about 50c worth of ESO time being lost. People have more worries in the world than that crap. If you don't like it then don't sign contracts that say a business can do anything they want. Just because you can't read the terms and conditions doesn't mean everyone else can't as well.
You're not smart when you talk about ZOS needs to fulfil contracts and obligations that they have to you because of the loss of game time.
Boo hoo. You didn't get to play a video game for a couple of hours after school or work.
You aren't entitled to anything. No one is going to say you win. Because you said it yourself, if ZOS is expect to fulfil the terms and conditions that you agreed to, the contract you agreed to, then they all ready are by not giving a crap if you lose out on 5hrs of gaming. If you don't like it welcome to the real world, as you play this virtual one.Crown Crates are a trap. Don't fall for the gamble! Balance? What Balance? Balance, smellance.
Necro for them RP feels.2 -
Yamenstein✭✭✭✭✭People never cease to amaze me. I work in a large corporation handling customer complaints and such. And one time this guy was screaming, literally screaming at me because his order was 5 cents more than what a sales agent quoted him like 3 weeks prior.
Now we have people here demanding to be compensated for losing 6 cents worth of gaming.
A sub in the US is $15. A month with 31 days (like August) has 744 hours in it. That means, for a full 31 days of a sub it comes out to about 2 cents per hour. The server being down for 3 hours means that you are coming at ZOS for $0.06 of compensation.
It has taken me 3 minutes to write this response. Going off of my normal working rate, I spent $0.80 of my time responding to you.
Its so fun to monetize everything to the exact minute, isn't it?
People are idiots. That's all I've figured out. I work at a bank dealing with merchants. They complain about everything. I'm sorry but if you signed a contract you don't get to cry over the fact it isn't nice, 10 years later.
Real world issues out there and some people just complain about the smallest of things. I've said it before, all complainers go complain to your partners. At least until they ditch you for being so negative and petty. Then you can complain to yourself.Crown Crates are a trap. Don't fall for the gamble! Balance? What Balance? Balance, smellance.
Necro for them RP feels.2 -
Yamenstein✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Azuramoonstar wrote: »sorry to say, but that isn't how mmo work
WoW only compensate people if problems are roughly a week- month long.
there is a cause in every tos for every mmo that does state "you are not guaranteed service, servers can be shut down at the discretion of <insert company>, including times of war, political embargo, etc"
if Zos wants to compensate, they will do so. But you are not guaranteed service.
Then MMOs need to be brought up to the same expectations of quality service that every other industry has to follow.
I'm going to go to McDonald's, buy some fries and then count the number of fries I get so I can be compensated the correct value the next time I go.Crown Crates are a trap. Don't fall for the gamble! Balance? What Balance? Balance, smellance.
Necro for them RP feels.3 -
Yamenstein✭✭✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »MasterSpatula wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »And so the entitlement threads begin...
How silly of people to feel entitled to something they pay for. We should just give ZOS money since they attempted to make an MMO.
Doesn't matter if it has any uptime, quality, or playability, It's the thought that counts.- I shouldn't complain when my cable TV doesn't work for half of the month I pay for it.
- I shouldn't complain when I order a magazine subscription and half of the magazines don't arrive on time.
- Hell even if I go to a store, buy a pack of gum and then the clerk doesn't give it to me, why feel entitled? He tried to give it to me but he's on break now. I should just be grateful that I had a chance to pay money for a product I can't enjoy.
Your lost time comes out to approximately four cents. I'll mail you 4 pennies myself if you cover the postage.
Will you mail me enough to cover all of the completely preventable interruptions that I have experienced in this game since launch in 2014?
The month where PvP was unplayable at single digit frames? The patch that crashed and had to be patched again?
All of those pennies add up bro.
Did you sign and terms and conditions effectively saying that all of this stuff is disregarded due to some reason or another.
I remember clicking an I agree button multiple times. All of those buttons add up bro.
Edit: I must have missed when we lost half a month's worth of gaming for ESO? My connection has been more or less the same. And I was at work when any unexpected maintenance went down. Guess with your logic I'll be compensated as well right? I mean I only really had to wait for the standard maintenance each week.
Oh wait so if ZOS takes two whole days to do maintenance so they can release the patch with no problems, does that mean you still get compensation? Because you know maintenance is coming and we don't get given a specific end time. But it's an expected start and not something random. So ZOS can do that right?
Also when you lose your cable TV do you lose it because of network maintenance in the area. Oh man! There was a car accident on my street a couple of days ago, telephone plll went down. I should probably talk about getting compensation for the 6hrs I couldn't play ESO. My network provider should have something in place already for situations like this. So I can still continue to get my days worth of internet still.
Also I think your mail man is stealing your magazines. Watch that one.Edited by Yamenstein on August 17, 2017 2:25PMCrown Crates are a trap. Don't fall for the gamble! Balance? What Balance? Balance, smellance.
Necro for them RP feels.2
This discussion has been closed.