Gilliam's critique of new update
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Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭I got the impression you wanted to throw your hands up and have a good cry about it all, Gilliam. I'm sure you spent many many many hours testing and reckoning you have to do it all over again, with gear you don't have.
Hope you are making beer money or something with your vids, because ye gads. Too much stress unless its a living, man. Just truth. But anyway.
What is puzzling is how they do testing. We had a private test group in the pre-beta called the Psijic Order. Still have a private forum here, that never gets used. Back early on the devs interacted with us, but crickets, for years.
I wish they would create a new group or reboot that group. Maybe they have hired hands filling the role now.
But see, we didn't have the streamers, the wikis, etc back then. Another bit of truth - they may well reckon streamers and youtubers as somewhat adversarial. Where they would like to see BiS discovered over time rather than crunched over night.
And so may do things to frustrate attempts to do so.
Don't know. I do know the lack of communication is frustrating, and I don't mean to minimize people's irritation.
But slot warrior and rock.Esse quam videri.10 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭So the new standard is, that people expect now to have the new BiS gear delivered to them before patch hits? And we complain now if this doesn't work out? I don't think that's what PTS was or should ever be supposed to be. I don't think that's good for a game or any community within.
Isn't aquiring the ressources and time to test & find new setups within the game's boundaries incremental part of the game? Why should the PTS side-game be allowed to circumvent all that?
I prefer a game where it takes months each patch to identify BiS and where people are forced to make their own findings, based on time and ressources invested.
Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy3 -
Agalloch✭✭✭✭✭What's the point to have a PTS?
What's the point of giving feedback to them if they don't listen to it?
The proof they don't give a sh ** for what community say is the last changes they put on live were not tested by the community..and I'm sure nor by them.
ZOS have 2 departments run my amateurs : The balance and the technical one.
ZOS hire better people...dont let ESO die!!
English is not my native language3 -
ofSunhold✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »This is exactly why I avoided pts this update . I finally learned that ZoS is going do to what ZoS wants and that will probably be the opposite of my feedback .
Same. If I need to be treated with contempt, I'm sure I can round that up somewhere that isn't my choice for recreation. And they can find their own damned bugs. Nothing in it for me but frustration.Edited by ofSunhold on August 16, 2017 6:54AMClasses that don't need any class ability nerfs: Nightblades, Dragonknights, Sorcs, Templars, Wardens.1 -
IwakuraLain42✭✭✭✭✭This is the one time that I'm glad that console gets patch 2 weeks after PC... rest assured there will be more changes in the next 2 weeks... we'll just have to see what ZOS will change...
Sorry to burst your bubble but we will get exactly what is Live now on PC because that is what has been submitted to certification with Sony/MS. Any changes in the next weeks on PC we won't see until 5-6 weeks later because ZOS can't be bothered to deliver timely patches to the majority of their player base ...4 -
WhoSlappedThePie✭✭✭Gilliam is a don. Don't know why people are bashing him "contradicting" etc... dude got game. To be honest, if the PTS is meant for X what does it matter if people do Y if they're smart enough or have the dedication?
Yes, I agree that BiS should be found not instantly but what does it matter if it's found by someone right away. That's like creating a treasure hunt and being upset when somebody finds it quicker than everybody else.
This is the age of speed runs my friends and people will find stuff in stupid time now so you gotta work with it. Like the whole balance thing, it wouldn't matter if people discovered what is "best" if there is an actual balance with gear and it is more dependant on unique champion point placement etc...
Gilliam isn't the problem here, it's the developers who can't be bothered to create a system with individual customisation where groups in trials for example each have particular desired roles due to their unique champion builds. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong.Edited by WhoSlappedThePie on August 16, 2017 10:26AM"It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop."
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Arwaut✭✭✭✭Take a deep breath. MMO balance isn't something you achieve. It's more like a journey that never ends.
It is constantly evolving and changing. That is just the reality of creating and running an MMO.
Try to chill before the devs end up like Blizzards. Full of contempt for their own customers.
You are right in the description of MMO balancing. The problem here is, if we stay in the journey metaphor, that they are sailing with no Captain, no roadmap and sometimes even without water...
5 -
Rickter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Another bit of truth - they may well reckon streamers and youtubers as somewhat adversarial. Where they would like to see BiS discovered over time rather than crunched over night.
And so may do things to frustrate attempts to do so.
words of wisdom here. Spoken like a true member of the Psijic Order.
There is less than a handful of positive and fun social media content creators and you wonder why zos would rather look elsewhere.RickterESO
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Coilbox✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »So the new standard is, that people expect now to have the new BiS gear delivered to them before patch hits? And we complain now if this doesn't work out? I don't think that's what PTS was or should ever be supposed to be. I don't think that's good for a game or any community within.
Isn't aquiring the ressources and time to test & find new setups within the game's boundaries incremental part of the game? Why should the PTS side-game be allowed to circumvent all that?
I prefer a game where it takes months each patch to identify BiS and where people are forced to make their own findings, based on time and ressources invested.
The problem here is not about finding the BiS gear for each class straight away. Same as you, i preffer to take some time to test and find out myself and enjoy in the meantime, thats great.
The problem here is what ZOS does with the feedback is given by all of us. Again, not talking about BiS gear, but bugs, balance (gear not working properly or bugs making certain skills underperform or overperform) causing the game to break.
People invest a lot of time doing it on the PTS with the only interest of seeing the game working as it should balance-wise and perform-wise... The proccess was going alright... the approach between the community and the developers was getting to a point where communication was being fluent. The community (or most of it) agreed on some balance terms (mundus stones, traits, etc) that was giving some health and fresh air to the game... And in the last minute... BOOM... ZOS decides to simply change most of it, sticking all the feedback in everyone's arses, and doing what they want without testing anything and in a unilateral way.
It's not that they cant do it... of course they can, it's their game and they can modify it as they please... but in the end they do a game for people to play it, to enjoy it, to spend time on it, and most important from the company view... to spend money on it.
To me, the changes in the last minute before going live, is a SLAP in the face of everyone who, without any interest other than help, spent so long in the PTS testing and trying. It's like telling them: We know better, you just shut up.
They might know better, yeah, but ignoring the feedback and the community in general... thats not very healthy in the long run, and as I said some time ago, ZOS is lucky that there isn't a big competitor in the market right now. But that wont stay like that for too long, and people will have other choices. Very interesting choices honestly.
Cheers.Comrade, a word...6 -
maryriv✭✭✭✭Gilliamtherogue wrote: »Seeing this discussion makes me happy.
To comment on the few people who are struggling with a few hitches on "contradicting" myself;
The existence of the Mother's Sorrow + Juli + Shadow combination was obviously over performing. With 55% bonuses on all set bonuses and Mother's insane spike on the 5 piece, Shadow was being enabled too much, same with Stamina. However, merely tuning those values down to their current live versions leaves plenty of room where Shadow is not nearly as a clear choice as it was. The issue was the compacted nerf of 3% base and 4.575% with full Divines, which has literally left Shadow being OUT CRIT by Warrior and Apprentice alone, completely removing the purpose of this Mundus stone. Merely removing the insane crit bonuses would have enabled more choice making, instead of a static BiS.
The combination of Mother's + Juli was also not a completely applicable setup, it required specific CHD values or group buffs to empower it ahead of other sets, which I talked about to great lengths in many of my streams and videos. We finally went to a state of situational BiS, instead of end all be all. I only suggested it in my summary because it was entirely built out of BoE setups that tackle a lot of content reasonably well.
Now that HotR has gone live, instead of choosing between Precise, Nirn, Sharp, or Infused, we chose from Nirn, Sharp or Infused.
The same goes with Mundus stones; instead of choosing between Thief, Lover, Shadow, or Warrior/Apprentice, we take Warrior/Apprentice or Lover. While there are still situational choices, we now have a much smaller choice pool, and less overall power.
I like this response better than your video, much more concise. I agree, precise and shadow should go back to their final PTS values.1 -
Johngo0036✭✭✭✭✭I dunno why zenni dont employ him to sort this out and put him in a position for fire some useless people there.
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Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Take a deep breath. MMO balance isn't something you achieve. It's more like a journey that never ends.
It is constantly evolving and changing. That is just the reality of creating and running an MMO.
Try to chill before the devs end up like Blizzards. Full of contempt for their own customers.
I would rather they did, and left.
This is not an adequate reason to stop pushing them to do a better job. Because the current balance is atrocious, and has been for ages. needless changes and nonsensical 'solutions' to problems that nobody wanted fixed.
They. Need. To. Learn. By feedback or by profit loss.
Yeah, keep up the awful attitude and I promise you they will continue to ignore whatever it is you have to say. No one is going to read hundreds of posts everyday from people just bashing them nonstop with the mentality of a tween.
Accuses other person of having an awful attitude and then uses an insult to wrap up their position. Way to show them the light.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Johngo0036 wrote: »I dunno why zenni dont employ him to sort this out and put him in a position for fire some useless people there.
Technically they have. He was one of the players brought in for a multi day play testing of Morrowind and feedback on base game mechanics.
In the end Zos introduced changes (the CP and other sustain changes) that were not part of or even discussed with the players Sos brought in.0 -
Aeolwind✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Gilliam is contradicting himself.
In the video, he is saying that "build diversity" is out the window after the live changes.
But if the changes had not happened, EVERY SINGLE SORC would be using Julianos/Mothers Sorrow/Shadow. How is THAT build diversity?
Even after the changes they made, this may still best in slot for sorcs if I'm not mistaken lol. Mundus might be Apprentice now, maybe Thief again. Sorc is overperforming compared to most other classes & builds.
The diversity came in situational DPS as he explained in earlier videos. So, if you watch this in a vacuum it does look like he is contradicting himself. Even sorcs would need to carry multiple sets of gear and weapons to achieve the 'sharp' meta performance.
I'm kinda glad they reversed it; it really cuts down on the gear and weapons you have to carry. I was about to have to buy some bag space for a few characters to keep it from being overwhelming.
But, now I'm back to Juli/Moon or Infal/Monster/Maelstrom on most characters and BSW/infal/monster/maelstrom on my DK. None of my gear changed because the difference would be fairly small. Just needed to swap mundus stones. Well, technically while infal is bugged it is tops; but that will be short lived.
Basically, a bunch of stuff got nerfed, a few things got buffed and we ended up on a slightly worse place than we were before HOTR dropped & there was no significant change in gameplay.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »
Serious raiders would probably have had multiple sets as so much was close enough that varuous builds performance would depend on the situation.Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Gilliam is contradicting himself.
In the video, he is saying that "build diversity" is out the window after the live changes.
But if the changes had not happened, EVERY SINGLE SORC would be using Julianos/Mothers Sorrow/Shadow. How is THAT build diversity?
In the video I recall him saying build diversity was minimized as a result of the changes.
The most important take away was that Zos chose to not make a change in an incremental PTS patch to obtain more information which would have permitted Zos to better adjust the set bonuses.
Gilliam has also stated the crit build was over performing on the PTS in certain situations, moreso because shadow was over performing in those situations. He isn't blind to that. I think he merely thinks it was scaled back to far making shadow not very useful. Now shadow is not a solid choice which minimizes the worthy choices we have in the end.1 -
sevomd69✭✭✭✭✭
✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »This is the one time that I'm glad that console gets patch 2 weeks after PC... rest assured there will be more changes in the next 2 weeks... we'll just have to see what ZOS will change...
Sorry to burst your bubble but we will get exactly what is Live now on PC because that is what has been submitted to certification with Sony/MS. Any changes in the next weeks on PC we won't see until 5-6 weeks later because ZOS can't be bothered to deliver timely patches to the majority of their player base ...
True, but we will be eventually getting the changes... i am not of the ilk where I need my "BIS" sets NOW....0 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hey guys, its really easy to point the finger at zos. And i understand the frustration with the nerfs. But ive been hearing very positive things about the patch from players in game. I think we all need to take a step back and enjoy the content and make the gradual adjustments to accommodate the changes just like any other patch. Gilliam has indeed done alot for the community and works tirelessly at testing information. But hes also the same guy that posted a negative analysis video about the morrowind patch changes which launched these boards into hysteria. Fast forward three months and stam dps is not dead and everyone has no sustain issues and dps is at an all time high.
I feel a lot of you should try and find the answers yourselves instead of taking the words of a few as gold.
yeah... gonna have to call shenanigans on that one bud. High quality players have no sustain issues.
The rest of Tamriel is out of breath trying to keep up before hand, and it would have been worse without the feedback they gave. The final iteration of the Morrowind balance patch shows that they scaled back their tsunami of sustain nerfs from the first iteration.
Also, oblivion damage hurts shield users? Man, what class double stacks shields? I... hang on... it's almost like the class notorious for shield stacking was just spared being ripped a new one? Hmmm m.....#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
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Dasovaruilos✭✭✭✭✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »This is the one time that I'm glad that console gets patch 2 weeks after PC... rest assured there will be more changes in the next 2 weeks... we'll just have to see what ZOS will change...
Sorry to burst your bubble but we will get exactly what is Live now on PC because that is what has been submitted to certification with Sony/MS. Any changes in the next weeks on PC we won't see until 5-6 weeks later because ZOS can't be bothered to deliver timely patches to the majority of their player base ...
True, but we will be eventually getting the changes... i am not of the ilk where I need my "BIS" sets NOW....
If the recent past is any indication, the first console patch will only come around 45 days after HotR launches.
Whatever bugs people are finding on PC now, we will probably have to live with for one and half month.Edited by Dasovaruilos on August 17, 2017 11:18AM0 -
C4Bliss✭✭✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »This is the one time that I'm glad that console gets patch 2 weeks after PC... rest assured there will be more changes in the next 2 weeks... we'll just have to see what ZOS will change...
Sorry to burst your bubble but we will get exactly what is Live now on PC because that is what has been submitted to certification with Sony/MS. Any changes in the next weeks on PC we won't see until 5-6 weeks later because ZOS can't be bothered to deliver timely patches to the majority of their player base ...
True, but we will be eventually getting the changes... i am not of the ilk where I need my "BIS" sets NOW....
If the recent past is any indication, the first console patch will only come around 45 days after HotR launches.
Whatever bugs people are finding on PC now, we will probably have to live with for one and half month.
Consoles have always gotten the most recent patch... I am gonna guess all that will get fixed before the end of the month will get implemented in the patch.0 -
Dasovaruilos✭✭✭✭✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »This is the one time that I'm glad that console gets patch 2 weeks after PC... rest assured there will be more changes in the next 2 weeks... we'll just have to see what ZOS will change...
Sorry to burst your bubble but we will get exactly what is Live now on PC because that is what has been submitted to certification with Sony/MS. Any changes in the next weeks on PC we won't see until 5-6 weeks later because ZOS can't be bothered to deliver timely patches to the majority of their player base ...
True, but we will be eventually getting the changes... i am not of the ilk where I need my "BIS" sets NOW....
If the recent past is any indication, the first console patch will only come around 45 days after HotR launches.
Whatever bugs people are finding on PC now, we will probably have to live with for one and half month.
Consoles have always gotten the most recent patch... I am gonna guess all that will get fixed before the end of the month will get implemented in the patch.
Not really.
Since One Tamriel, we get 95% of what PC gets on launch week, with sometimes a couple of added bug fixes from the first week post launch on PC. Anything other than that will only be fixed in a big incremental patch that only comes 40-45 days after launch on consoles.
Just check the Xbox patch history. You will see that it is basically a copy of the very first PC patch, and the next patch is almost two months away. Has been like that since One Tamriel, that I remember.0 -
Haquor✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »So the new standard is, that people expect now to have the new BiS gear delivered to them before patch hits? And we complain now if this doesn't work out? I don't think that's what PTS was or should ever be supposed to be. I don't think that's good for a game or any community within.
Isn't aquiring the ressources and time to test & find new setups within the game's boundaries incremental part of the game? Why should the PTS side-game be allowed to circumvent all that?
I prefer a game where it takes months each patch to identify BiS and where people are forced to make their own findings, based on time and ressources invested.
No.
I do not want to spend my game time focussed on gear. I just want to have my character as good as he can be equiped so i can actually just focus on playing content both pvp and pve as much as possible.
For you playing the game may mean trialing gear and crunching numbers. To me... not so much.
The PTS is for testing new equipment and content and abilities. So yes its completely feasible that BIS should be understood before live. If not then it means that it has not been tested and if it is suitable or stupid OP to the point of broken.
Your statement about this being bad for the community is just rediculous.Edited by Haquor on August 17, 2017 12:19PM1 -
NotNormanBates✭✭✭ZOS are just so clumsy with their changes- like watching a bull in a china shop. this isn't experimental- its mathematical- its logical- its scientific- yet the way they do things is ridiculous- "oh lets try taking a 1000 off this and putting 8 percent into that! no? lets try putting on 1000 and taking away 8 percent!" its stupid. gamers have a finer understanding of their own calculations they they do- its really embarrassing to seem them stumble about each time.
to me theyre like idiot teens who inherited dads fortune and company. like jerry buss or something. the people that made this fine game have long gone- now we re left with dumpsties who dont know how to balance a game. we all want the same thing- multiple weapons, traits, builds that are viable- but they can't get it right. its been 3 years.
i want for example to duel 3 people- same skill and class, different builds, and each of us to have an advantage over another- but a disadvantage over someone else- and for it to be contextual as gil says.
so that if i go into a trial- i might have better damage over light targets- but another dps does more damage aoe- or anther guy does more damage on bosses. each of us needed specific builds and weapons for our tasks. as it is- we ve seen meta- where everyone has the same crap - but it changing to different metas each time- thats just rearranging of the same problems. to condense that- you ADD more Cp to an already overflowing cup of dps increase that is swallowing the content of the game.
I'm close to being done zos- I've given you so much money and time- but you guys stuff it up time and time again- please make some changes - not to the balance - that is obvious- but to your company, strategy , staff and structure. you're not doing it wrong- its more fundamental- the wrong people are doing it.
I couldn't agree more with your post. That is exactly what i want. The problem seems to be that most peoples version of build diversity is having everything be the exact same, so that mundus stones, traits, and sets can all be jumbled together to have the same outcome. Which really isn't good for the game. So for all of you pointing to Alcast's builds as proof of a lack of build diversity is ridiculous. Assuming that his builds were infact "Bis", it was only best at one thing, end-game, coordinated, raiding.(Mothers sorrow gets considerably less powerful w/o a good warhorn rotation to up your crit damage modifier). The way this patch could have turned out was just as Gilliam described, a non-static best in slot, one that changed depending on the type of content you ran, but also didn't overly penalize those who didn't have perfect traits or those who wanted to run other viable gear sets. Instead we were stuck with a change to the game that made it so every single viable gear set-up functions the same. This type of system does nothing to promote game play and removes a lot of the incentive to replay old content. Dont want to get a monster set? Doesnt matter. Dont want to get vMA/vDSA weapons? Doesnt matter. Don't want to get dungeon set's? All good, crafted sets are just as good. Dont want to get trial sets? No worries, you can buy overland jewelry thats just as good.
And i've only spoke on the content side of game play. Those of us who enjoy farming and playing the market are also going to be hit hard because of what these changes are doing to the in-game economy. Now that the only necessary items are jewelry, weapon prices and armor prices are most likely going to dive bomb, and because of the so called "diversity", that these changes are bringing about, jewelry prices will drop across the board as well.
Of course this all just my speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
Edited by NotNormanBates on August 17, 2017 12:59PM0 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NotNormanBates wrote: »ZOS are just so clumsy with their changes- like watching a bull in a china shop. this isn't experimental- its mathematical- its logical- its scientific- yet the way they do things is ridiculous- "oh lets try taking a 1000 off this and putting 8 percent into that! no? lets try putting on 1000 and taking away 8 percent!" its stupid. gamers have a finer understanding of their own calculations they they do- its really embarrassing to seem them stumble about each time.
to me theyre like idiot teens who inherited dads fortune and company. like jerry buss or something. the people that made this fine game have long gone- now we re left with dumpsties who dont know how to balance a game. we all want the same thing- multiple weapons, traits, builds that are viable- but they can't get it right. its been 3 years.
i want for example to duel 3 people- same skill and class, different builds, and each of us to have an advantage over another- but a disadvantage over someone else- and for it to be contextual as gil says.
so that if i go into a trial- i might have better damage over light targets- but another dps does more damage aoe- or anther guy does more damage on bosses. each of us needed specific builds and weapons for our tasks. as it is- we ve seen meta- where everyone has the same crap - but it changing to different metas each time- thats just rearranging of the same problems. to condense that- you ADD more Cp to an already overflowing cup of dps increase that is swallowing the content of the game.
I'm close to being done zos- I've given you so much money and time- but you guys stuff it up time and time again- please make some changes - not to the balance - that is obvious- but to your company, strategy , staff and structure. you're not doing it wrong- its more fundamental- the wrong people are doing it.
I couldn't agree more with your post. That is exactly what i want. The problem seems to be that most peoples version of build diversity is having everything be the exact same, so that mundus stones, traits, and sets can all be jumbled together to have the same outcome. Which really isn't good for the game. So for all of you pointing to Alcast's builds as proof of a lack of build diversity is ridiculous. Assuming that his builds were infact "Bis", it was only best at one thing, end-game, coordinated, raiding.(Mothers sorrow gets considerably less powerful w/o a good warhorn rotation to up your crit damage modifier). The way this patch could have turned out was just as Gilliam described, a non-static best in slot, one that changed depending on the type of content you ran, but also didn't overly penalize those who didn't have perfect traits or those who wanted to run other viable gear sets. Instead we were stuck with a change to the game that made it so every single viable gear set-up functions the same. This type of system does nothing to promote game play and removes a lot of the incentive to replay old content. Dont want to get a monster set? Doesnt matter. Dont want to get vMA/vDSA weapons? Doesnt matter. Don't want to get dungeon set's? All good, crafted sets are just as good. Dont want to get trial sets? No worries, you can buy overland jewelry thats just as good.
And i've only spoke on the content side of game play. Those of us who enjoy farming and playing the market are also going to be being hit hard because of what these changes are doing to the in-game economy. Now that the only necessary items are jewelry, weapon prices and armor prices are most likely going to dive bomb, and because of the so called "diversity", that these changes are bringing about, jewelry prices will drop across the board as well.
Of course this all just my speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
Well said. The problem seems to be that it isn't just "some people" who think that build diversity means having everything be the same, it's that ZOS seems to think that's what diversity means. Witness the most recent patch notes: their aim is explicitly to bring all bonuses, values, and choices into brute mathematical equivalence with one another. Their vision of diversity in this patch is: choose whatever you want, because it's all the same anyway.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.0 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People have been crying about "balance", devs don't listen, feedback isn't appreciated in mmo's since there were mmo's.
Problem is, they are mostly crying about self interest and have no idea what the devs were/are looking at.0
