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Gilliam's critique of new update
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Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is exactly why I avoided pts this update . I finally learned that ZoS is going do to what ZoS wants and that will probably be the opposite of my feedback .8 -
Anlace✭✭✭Hey guys, its really easy to point the finger at zos. And i understand the frustration with the nerfs. But ive been hearing very positive things about the patch from players in game. I think we all need to take a step back and enjoy the content and make the gradual adjustments to accommodate the changes just like any other patch. Gilliam has indeed done alot for the community and works tirelessly at testing information. But hes also the same guy that posted a negative analysis video (
https://youtu.be/fK5D32QGsy0 ) about the morrowind patch changes which launched these boards into hysteria. Fast forward three months and stam dps is not dead and everyone has no sustain issues and dps is at an all time high.
I feel a lot of you should try and find the answers yourselves instead of taking the words of a few as gold.
Everyone has no sustain issues? I can't PUG dungeons since Morrowind because they were suddenly wall-to-wall people with sustain issues. I'm still working the kinks out of playing around the lack of a class ability that was made completely useless when that update came out - oh and hey, if I don't slot it, I lose out on some more sustain - and my DPS numbers still haven't recovered to where I was pre-Morrowind.
Don't do that. It's nice that you're fine and it was no big for you, really, but that was not my experience at all. The world didn't end and I can still play and don't need to complain about it constantly, but the game changed for me and it was not trivial. I doubt my POV is any more unusual than yours.Templar - Warden - Sorc
all magicka all the time17 -
Midori_Oku✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Gilliam is contradicting himself.
In the video, he is saying that "build diversity" is out the window after the live changes.
But if the changes had not happened, EVERY SINGLE SORC would be using Julianos/Mothers Sorrow/Shadow. How is THAT build diversity?
There will always be a BiS no matter what. However, what I believe he is saying is that there are many options that are so close together it doesn't really matter what you use. I would imagine that will still be the case with armor setups, but I think the thing that took the big hit in terms of diversity is the traits and mundus stones. Now it's warrior and most likely apprentice for everyone. Basically there were more options than before and then they took away quite a few of those options.Midori Oku - Female High Elf - Magicka Sorcerer
Allesse Nightvale - Female Wood Elf - Stamina Dragonknight
Raelette Velaoche - Female Breton - Magicka Templar0 -
bubbygink✭✭✭✭✭Honestly I really don't care if there is a BiS mundus stone. Who really even cares as long as everything else is balanced? Does it upset you that much that you have to click on the mundus that says "Warrior" instead of the one that says "Shadow?" It takes two seconds to switch mundus and it has no practical effects on game play.
IMO, the main thing that balance should be focused on is gear and trait diversity. AFAIK that appears to be balanced better than ever. Everyone keeps saying "they killed diversity." Well if that is the case could somebody please enlighten me on what this super OP gear + trait setup is that is so strong that apparently everyone must run it and nothing else? I mean if "diversity is dead" there must be one super OP gear +trait setup right? So what is it?Edited by bubbygink on August 15, 2017 4:14PM4 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭For those who are saying Build Diversity would have been just as one-sided, take a look at my thread here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/366287/comparing-julianos-pre-hotr-to-hotr-live-patch-day-1#latest
The problem was NOT the mundus stones, it was the 55% buff to crit bonuses. Tuning that down to 21% and leaving the mundus stones/precise at 3.1.4 levels would have been perfect.
We all need to get on message here. Tell ZOS to keep the set bonus changes and revert the mundus/precise changes back to 3.1.4.
Yes, Shadow would still beat Apprentice (by about 0.25%), so all of Alcast's builds might have it chosen (because he is a top end min/maxer), but the point of build diversity is that the difference between choices is so small that you can make many things work with very little difference in output. That's what you'd get if ZOS would bring the mundus stones/precise back to their 3.1.4 state.Edited by dpencil1 on August 15, 2017 4:32PM16 -
gard✭✭✭✭✭Because of the unrelenting outcry on the forums to nerf the oblivion damage glyph, ZOS did. But, that glyph was part of the overall equilibrium ... meaning that they couldn't nerf the glyph by itself, thus, other things were nerfed as well ... the most notable being the Thief & Shadow mundus stones, as well as reverting the pts boost to the precise weapon trait.
The glyph itself didn't do an insane amount of damage AND it couldn't crit. What it could do was go through shields. The builds that would 'feel' it the most were very low health builds.
Okay, so what about these other nerfs? You need to recall that there was a lot of excitement during the pts about crit chance and crit damage. If the last pts version went live, it would have opened the door for builds that could do an insane amount of crit damge ... we are talking about damage that would eat up your shield in no time, and pretty much mean instant death to someone without a shield.
If your build was the type that could NOT achieve an insane level of crit damage, you might go for the glyph. On the other hand, if your build WAS capable of achieving some crazy ass high crit damage, you certainly didn't need the glyph.
One went through a shield, the other exceeded the level of protection the shield provided (or insta-death to the 'unshielded'). Nerfing one meant they had to nerf the other.
... and yes, the nerf was a pvp issue that, unfortunately, effected the pve folks.
Is a shielded target crit-able now? I've been gone a few months but nothing would surprise me.
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Ryan1704✭✭✭In my opinion all that was needed was to "tweak" back the bonuses given to the crit of the set pieces so that it wasnt over the top but instead anything that had any sort of amps to crit or crit damage was also reverted/nerfed. So instead of a minor tweak it was a flat out nerf which has made these once viable traits/mundus stones useless.0 -
sevomd69✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is the one time that I'm glad that console gets patch 2 weeks after PC... rest assured there will be more changes in the next 2 weeks... we'll just have to see what ZOS will change...2 -
Ryan1704✭✭✭I think it's awesome all the people complaining that, "this patch left so much confusion about what's BiS"... then ZOS has done their job perfectly!! People should have to figure things out for themselves and the game should be open to ALL sets, not just a couple that are OP. People kick players who aren't wearing BiS... guess what... now perhaps people will now focus more on their skills and playing the game instead of worrying about what everyone else is wearing.
Its not that they have made the game so balanced that people cant find the bis its purely the fact that the live patch is so different from the pts that people now dont have the time or resources to find the new bis. There will always be a bis even if its only by 100 dps5 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »As always, they had a small issue (crit chance 2-4 bonus overperforming) that could have been fixed with a screwdriver, but instead they drop a nuclear bomb and nerf everything related to that too (Precise, Thief, Shadow).
And then we went from an awesome scenario where 4 traits were viable, 4-5 Mundus were viable, Monster set, no monster combinations were viable all back to one thing being so much better than all others.
I agree with Gilliam... It is such a missed opportunity.
I honestly don't know what goes on ZOS designer's head when they made those decisions.
Really disappointed that an overwhelmingly positive patch got wasted on a last minute bad decision.
Yep. I was impressed by the wonderful job their balance team did on the PTS. And then the live patch hit, and they literally undid EVERYTHING. To say I'm confused would be an understatement.
I was reading the notes but i cant seem the find the undid everything2 -
Pops_ND_Irish✭✭✭✭✭So the "expert" on the internet likes the game. So instead of people who, actually take these to heart, agree with him, they are disagreeing because he likes it. Hmmm0
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theamazingx✭✭✭✭For those who are saying Build Diversity would have been just as one-sided, take a look at my thread here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/366287/comparing-julianos-pre-hotr-to-hotr-live-patch-day-1#latest
The problem was NOT the mundus stones, it was the 55% buff to crit bonuses. Tuning that down to 21% and leaving the mundus stones/precise at 3.1.4 levels would have been perfect.
We all need to get on message here. Tell ZOS to keep the set bonus changes and revert the mundus/precise changes back to 3.1.4.
Yes, Shadow would still beat Apprentice (by about 0.25%), so all of Alcast's builds might have it chosen (because he is a top end min/maxer), but the point of build diversity is that the difference between choices is so small that you can make many things work with very little difference in output. That's what you'd get if ZOS would bring the mundus stones back to their 3.1.4 state.
This is really important. Lots of people getting caught up in "woe is me" and "muh double infused Sorrow", a solution has to be the focus. I think the one proposed here would work out well for everyone.2 -
Nebthet78✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This line from Gilliam's video is telling:I literally do more damage with an attack on a crit with Warrior than I do with Shadow, even though Shadow is all about critical hit damage.
This is a terrific summation of what we have in HotR. Not only are we still in a system in which there is one meta build you must run, but that system is very, very strange.
Am thinking ZOS does this to keep players running for BIS gear each update, rather than playing the actual content, because they can't develop enough new content in a timely manner to keep up with their own schedules.
Somebody in ZOS management needs to get some fresh monkey's in there who know what the heck they are doing and didn't graduate with C- in mathematics.Far too many characters to list any more.1 -
Gan Xing✭✭✭✭What I always wonder is why people open threads, linking YouTube videos of some guy.
And write things like "he said that...."
When he wanted it to be on forums, he should post it himself.
But in this case it just looks like someone is longing for their "Idol's" appreciation
I posted to create a discussion. If he posted somewhere else, I didn't see it. On another note, I also spent some solid hours in PTS testing things (and even helped him test things on live).
I don't consider him an Idol, but I still see him as a valuable contributor to this game and the community as a whole. He knows the intricacies of the game more so than the vast majority of us average joes.
I am not one who runs BiS, but I still watch the Youtubers to get a better idea of where things currently are, as I don't have the time or energy to do the math and testing myself.
When the PTS gets updated to reflect the current dynamics in live, I will be testing my "unique" builds.Gan Xing - Crafting Nightblade
Elrana Tinuviel - Hybrid Dragonknight
Elentári Peregrine - Sorcerer "bank"
Rán Xīng - Hybrid Templar
Laurïsil Imlachwen - Stamina Templar
Helotë Tinuviel - Hybrid/Magicka Warden
Odin banker - obv banker
Yan of the Red Mountain - lvl 3 DK - not sure when I will work on em
Seeks the unusual and unique playstyles...2 -
Wrecking_Gorilla✭✭✭ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »It's another situation where they decided to be too heavy handed with changes, and I agree with Gilliam.
I wish the decision makers would just look at the one or two "out of balance" things like scaling back Mother's Sorrow/Leviathan and not unilaterally nerf everything that has to do with crit.
It was the same with Morrowind. They couldn't just adjust places that were over performing, they nerfed everything that had to do with resources.
I would love to know if any math was actually done, or if they just watched Gilliam and Alcast and decided they would stop that setup from being good.
Lesson learned: Don't post build videos until after a patch goes live, or you will waste your time.
Zos can do math?0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the new update from a pvp standpoint. Proc sets are gone and oblivion damage is ***. This is literally the best patch in a long while.1 -
bubbygink✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, Shadow would still beat Apprentice (by about 0.25%), so all of Alcast's builds might have it chosen (because he is a top end min/maxer), but the point of build diversity is that the difference between choices is so small that you can make many things work with very little difference in output. That's what you'd get if ZOS would bring the mundus stones/precise back to their 3.1.4 state.
See this is what I don't get - all the testing I have seen with the most recent changes show Apprentice/Warrior beat Shadow by a similar amount - less than a percent. What is the difference? Are people so attached to Shadow mundus for some reason? I honestly don't get what people are complaining about. So some changes made it that a different mundus stone than before is marginally better than the others. What difference does it make if it is Shadow or Apprentice which is just barely BiS? Honestly I think a bunch of people are just butthurt that they jumped the gun on planning out their builds and golded out a bunch of mother's sorrow and are mad stuff was changed. Now they're crying that "diversity was killed."4 -
dpencil1✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes, Shadow would still beat Apprentice (by about 0.25%), so all of Alcast's builds might have it chosen (because he is a top end min/maxer), but the point of build diversity is that the difference between choices is so small that you can make many things work with very little difference in output. That's what you'd get if ZOS would bring the mundus stones/precise back to their 3.1.4 state.
See this is what I don't get - all the testing I have seen with the most recent changes show Apprentice/Warrior beat Shadow by a similar amount - less than a percent. What is the difference? Are people so attached to Shadow mundus for some reason? I honestly don't get what people are complaining about. So some changes made it that a different mundus stone than before is marginally better than the others. What difference does it make if it is Shadow or Apprentice which is just barely BiS? Honestly I think a bunch of people are just butthurt that they jumped the gun on planning out their builds and golded out a bunch of mother's sorrow and are mad stuff was changed. Now they're crying that "diversity was killed."
@bubbygink
I can't speak to what other people have found, but if you want to compare apples to apples:
LIVE: Apprentice over Shadow: 1.37%
PROPOSED: Shadow over Apprentice: 0.25%
Sure, the difference is small and probably not noticable to the "average" player. That's not the point. Which version is MORE balanced? It's a missed opportunity to simply make the balance BETTER.1 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Yes, Shadow would still beat Apprentice (by about 0.25%), so all of Alcast's builds might have it chosen (because he is a top end min/maxer), but the point of build diversity is that the difference between choices is so small that you can make many things work with very little difference in output. That's what you'd get if ZOS would bring the mundus stones/precise back to their 3.1.4 state.
See this is what I don't get - all the testing I have seen with the most recent changes show Apprentice/Warrior beat Shadow by a similar amount - less than a percent. What is the difference? Are people so attached to Shadow mundus for some reason? I honestly don't get what people are complaining about. So some changes made it that a different mundus stone than before is marginally better than the others. What difference does it make if it is Shadow or Apprentice which is just barely BiS? Honestly I think a bunch of people are just butthurt that they jumped the gun on planning out their builds and golded out a bunch of mother's sorrow and are mad stuff was changed. Now they're crying that "diversity was killed."
@bubbygink
I can't speak to what other people have found, but if you want to compare apples to apples:
LIVE: Apprentice over Shadow: 1.37%
PROPOSED: Shadow over Apprentice: 0.25%
Sure, the difference is small and probably not noticable to the "average" player. That's not the point. Which version is MORE balanced? It's a missed opportunity to simply make the balance BETTER.
Just going from this video, he claims Apprentice results in higher crit damage as well, so unfortunately there would be zero reason to use Shadow mundus.
Edited by IcyDeadPeople on August 15, 2017 7:50PM1 -
bubbygink✭✭✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »
Just going from this video, he claims Apprentice results in higher crit damage as well, so there is unfortunately zero reason to use shadow mundus.
Yea I totally get that. So again, I guess they messed up a nerfed shadow mundus a bit too much. So now people will run Warrior instead of Shadow. But paraphrasing the most agreed with comments on the first page here: "the entire patch is ruined because of this change," "diversity is now dead," "they screwed everything up," etc. Appears like insane over reactions. From my point of view all it looks like is Shadow has gone from BiS to not as great and Warrior/Apprentice are now BiS. So again, why does it matter? Before everyone was going to use Shadow. Now they'll use Warrior/Apprentice. How did this kill diversity? Gilliam even says in his video "all I know is that Warrior is now better than Shadow." Like wow, Warrior is now better than Shadow - the sky is falling!!! This is horrible! Other than that one difference I just don't get "how diversity has been killed."
Nobody has yet to tell me what crazy BiS gear + trait combo has killed diversity by becoming the 100% BiS in all situations. Still seems like balance is better than it has ever been - even to the point where Gilliam himself talked about how he just had no idea what was going to BiS and it would take him a lot of time to figure it out.5 -
Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭
Well, maybe you should listen to the whole thing then? You know... listen? Where he explains that before he chose mundus according to the situation? He like... literally says it.IcyDeadPeople wrote: »
Just going from this video, he claims Apprentice results in higher crit damage as well, so there is unfortunately zero reason to use shadow mundus.
Yea I totally get that. So again, I guess they messed up a nerfed shadow mundus a bit too much. So now people will run Warrior instead of Shadow. But paraphrasing the most agreed with comments on the first page here: "the entire patch is ruined because of this change," "diversity is now dead," "they screwed everything up," etc. Appears like insane over reactions. From my point of view all it looks like is Shadow has gone from BiS to not as great and Warrior/Apprentice are now BiS. So again, why does it matter? Before everyone was going to use Shadow. Now they'll use Warrior/Apprentice. How did this kill diversity? Gilliam even says in his video "all I know is that Warrior is now better than Shadow." Like wow, Warrior is now better than Shadow - the sky is falling!!! This is horrible! Other than that one difference I just don't get "how diversity has been killed."
Nobody has yet to tell me what crazy BiS gear + trait combo has killed diversity by becoming the 100% BiS in all situations. Still seems like balance is better than it has ever been - even to the point where Gilliam himself talked about how he just had no idea what was going to BiS and it would take him a lot of time to figure it out.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/17/
Solo:
Group:
That was the beauty of PTS. Mother Sorrow + Shadow was not BiS. It was BiS for raid setup with Warhorn, Minor Prophecy and all else you get in raid.
You're not doing trials? Surpriiiiiiiiise! You're better with Lover. Or hell. Maybe even Warrior sometimes. You know... it depended.
Now? It's always Warrior. Situation, Raid/Solo, group composition? Pffff. Nothing matters - take Warrior.
Explanation enough? I mean, I repeated the same thing Gilliam said. Literally the same. Now you get it?
Edited by Dantaria on August 15, 2017 8:10PMEnglish isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.12 -
bubbygink✭✭✭✭✭
Well, maybe you should listen to the whole thing then? You know... listen? Where he explains that before he chose mundus according to the situation? He like... literally says it.IcyDeadPeople wrote: »
Just going from this video, he claims Apprentice results in higher crit damage as well, so there is unfortunately zero reason to use shadow mundus.
Yea I totally get that. So again, I guess they messed up a nerfed shadow mundus a bit too much. So now people will run Warrior instead of Shadow. But paraphrasing the most agreed with comments on the first page here: "the entire patch is ruined because of this change," "diversity is now dead," "they screwed everything up," etc. Appears like insane over reactions. From my point of view all it looks like is Shadow has gone from BiS to not as great and Warrior/Apprentice are now BiS. So again, why does it matter? Before everyone was going to use Shadow. Now they'll use Warrior/Apprentice. How did this kill diversity? Gilliam even says in his video "all I know is that Warrior is now better than Shadow." Like wow, Warrior is now better than Shadow - the sky is falling!!! This is horrible! Other than that one difference I just don't get "how diversity has been killed."
Nobody has yet to tell me what crazy BiS gear + trait combo has killed diversity by becoming the 100% BiS in all situations. Still seems like balance is better than it has ever been - even to the point where Gilliam himself talked about how he just had no idea what was going to BiS and it would take him a lot of time to figure it out.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/page/17/
Solo:
Group:
That was the beauty of PTS. Mother Sorrow + Shadow was not BiS. It was BiS for raid setup with Warhorn, Minor Prophecy and all else you get in raid.
You're not doing trials? Surpriiiiiiiiise! You're better with Lover. Or hell. Maybe even Warrior sometimes. You know... it depended.
Now? It's always Warrior. Situation, Raid/Solo, group composition? Pffff. Nothing matters - take Warrior.
Explanation enough? I mean, I repeated the same thing Gilliam said. Literally the same. Now you get it?
If you read further in the very thread you linked to you will see that Asayre (who posted those charts) says that while before it was Lover for Solo and Shadow for group that was BiS, it is now Lover for Solo (still) and Apprentice for group. So again, as I keep saying, the only difference here is that now for group Apprentice is BiS over Shadow. They just flip-flopped. Why does this "ruin diversity?" It still "depends" as you said. Before Lover or Shadow, now Lover or Apprentice. This whole "before you had a choice but now you don't" is just not true - unless you think Asayre's calculations are premature or wrong.
More to your question - In my comment I said that I get that Warrior/Apprentice is now better than Shadow in groups (Lover is still better solo). What I don't get is why people are freaking out and saying everything is ruined and diversity is dead. You have not explained that to me. Again, the own thread you linked to in justifying your response said that before it was Lover for solo and Shadow for group and now it is Lover for solo and Apprentice for group - so we have the same exact situation. Is this entire thread's premise really that before in groups you would have to use Shadow but now you have to use Warrior/Apprentice? Is that really what is making people say "diversity is dead?" I'm not asking this rhetorically. I'm genuinely wondering. Is this simple mundus change what is freaking everyone out?Edited by bubbygink on August 15, 2017 8:46PM2 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭Kurkikohtaus wrote: »Gilliam is contradicting himself.
In the video, he is saying that "build diversity" is out the window after the live changes.
But if the changes had not happened, EVERY SINGLE SORC would be using Julianos/Mothers Sorrow/Shadow. How is THAT build diversity?
100% agree...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught that...Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s2 -
Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gilliam is one of those people you meet in business sometimes. They are extreme specialists, they know their poop inside and out on a particular vein. Like a commodities trader, or a brain surgeon or DNA researcher. Ive watched a lot of his videos and he is able to retain a great deal of detail over time through different iterations to form a comparative.
Im not here to blow smoke up his poop shoot but lets just say I have two observations:
1. Given the opening paragraph, imagine someone like that having their apple cart upset. He's a bit of a geek, its not a put down its meant in a positive light but its clearly an overreaction. He's talking about things being "nerfed to oblivion" which they werent.
2. he is correct in his overall observation of the situation pertaining to Zenimax. They are not very good at this, there is really no reason we should be at this place at this time. The game has been out for years we should be much closer to balance then we are.
I like Gilliam a lot, the problem is one of expectations. He placed too high expectations on ZOS.
Dude, this is a company that is making a product for us to consume and spend money on, you SHOULD have high expectations.
You can;t continue to excuse zenimax for their bad work. There should be someone to do the balancing properly, and this kind of *** in inexcusable, the guys who are balancing are PAID workers, which means that they should be some kind of expert on the subject.
If you continue to excuse their work, by saying, oh your expectations were just too high, then you will continue to get a *** product.
The things that gilliam does, they should do it also, instead, most of the time i see the developers responding to *** threads like what is your favorite pet in the game, instead, on the the threads that talk about balancing, absolute silence, is this the mark of a great company? I think not.
I dont excuse them. Ive been playing since beta and while I dont expect you to go through my post history if you had you'd find I place most of the blame on them.
The expectations comment was in the context of historical precedent. They are bold face liars, seemingly the only way to obtain the ZOS perspective is the lodge ones head up their rectum.
Gilliam should have known better, we've been down this road before.2 -
Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭
It's mundus + crit. What they did was nerfing all crit in comparison to PTS. And now you're stuck in limbo, because you still need crit.If you read further in the very thread you linked to you will see that Asayre (who posted those charts) says that while before it was Lover for Solo and Shadow for group that was BiS, it is now Lover for Solo (still) and Apprentice for group. So again, as I keep saying, the only difference here is that now for group Apprentice is BiS over Shadow. They just flip-flopped. Why does this "ruin diversity?" It still "depends" as you said. Before Lover or Shadow, now Lover or Apprentice. This whole "before you had a choice but now you don't" is just not true - unless you think Asayre's calculations are premature or wrong.
More to your question - In my comment I said that I get that Warrior/Apprentice is now better than Shadow in groups (Lover is still better solo). What I don't get is why people are freaking out and saying everything is ruined and diversity is dead. You have not explained that to me. Again, the own thread you linked to in justifying your response said that before it was Lover for solo and Shadow for group and now it is Lover for solo and Apprentice for group - so we have the same exact situation. Is this entire thread's premise really that before in groups you would have to use Shadow but now you have to use Warrior/Apprentice? Is that really what is making people say "diversity is dead?" I'm not asking this rhetorically. I'm genuinely wondering. Is this simple mundus change what is freaking everyone out?
Suppose, you got vMA Lightning Infused stuff. Nice drop in PTS reality even without Infused bug (it was a bug, after all). But now... Now you lack both crit and penetration.
Suppose you take Lover. Okay, one problem solved. But what about crit? Presice is veeeery meh now (7% instead of PTS 9%). You will be... If I recall right, you will be just above 50% in crit with Precise on frontbar and Julianos.
Okay, you take Thief. Now you have to make up for penetration fully with CPs and that's catastrophic (EDIT - you can try Spinner, but... meh, I think. Was meh for me at least).
"Lover for solo" doesn't ring the same bell it did on PTS. It's mathematically right if you ignore all other parameters. It's the best plus from zero. But... waaaaaait for it... yep. You need crit.
Pretty much every creative combination you can think of shatters because of either "you need crit" or "you need penetration". So we're back to BiS again. To some very specific combination that covers crit, penetration and magicka/SPD/stamina/WD. For now what it is remains a question. But there is one 100% and that combination will noticeably win over every pathetic attempt to make your Infused vMA Lightning Staff work, so to speak.
They pretty much created diversity and then made this system collapse on itself because of crit exclusion.
EDIT. P. S. One plus though - everything is very vague right now, but I think we will now have several BiSes. Several combinations, which are quite close to each other. It's not "Sharp + Thief only". But it's still far from what it was on PTS, where you actually could make everything work, because sets gave enough.Edited by Dantaria on August 16, 2017 12:09AMEnglish isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.6 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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It's mundus + crit. What they did was nerfing all crit in comparison to PTS. And now you're stuck in limbo, because you still need crit.If you read further in the very thread you linked to you will see that Asayre (who posted those charts) says that while before it was Lover for Solo and Shadow for group that was BiS, it is now Lover for Solo (still) and Apprentice for group. So again, as I keep saying, the only difference here is that now for group Apprentice is BiS over Shadow. They just flip-flopped. Why does this "ruin diversity?" It still "depends" as you said. Before Lover or Shadow, now Lover or Apprentice. This whole "before you had a choice but now you don't" is just not true - unless you think Asayre's calculations are premature or wrong.
More to your question - In my comment I said that I get that Warrior/Apprentice is now better than Shadow in groups (Lover is still better solo). What I don't get is why people are freaking out and saying everything is ruined and diversity is dead. You have not explained that to me. Again, the own thread you linked to in justifying your response said that before it was Lover for solo and Shadow for group and now it is Lover for solo and Apprentice for group - so we have the same exact situation. Is this entire thread's premise really that before in groups you would have to use Shadow but now you have to use Warrior/Apprentice? Is that really what is making people say "diversity is dead?" I'm not asking this rhetorically. I'm genuinely wondering. Is this simple mundus change what is freaking everyone out?
Suppose, you got vMA Lightning Infused stuff. Nice drop in PTS reality even without Infused bug (it was a bug, after all). But now... Now you lack both crit and penetration.
Suppose you take Lover. Okay, one problem solved. But what about crit? Presice is veeeery meh now (7% instead of PTS 9%). You will be... If I recall right, you will be just above 50% in crit with Precise on frontbar and Julianos.
Okay, you take Thief. Now you have to make up for penetration fully with CPs and that's catastrophic (EDIT - you can try Spinner, but... meh, I think. Was meh for me at least).
"Lover for solo" doesn't ring the same bell it did on PTS. It's mathematically right if you ignore all other parameters. It's the best plus from zero. But... waaaaaait for it... yep. You need crit.
Pretty much every creative combination you can think of shatters because of either "you need crit" or "you need penetration". So we're back to BiS again. To some very specific combination that covers crit, penetration and magicka/SPD/stamina/WD. For now what it is remains a question. But there is one 100% and that combination will noticeably win over every pathetic attempt to make your Infused vMA Lightning Staff work, so to speak.
They pretty much created diversity and then made this system collapse on itself because of crit exclusion.
EDIT. P. S. One plus though - everything is very vague right now, but I think we will now have several BiSes. Several combinations, which are quite close to each other. It's not "Sharp + Thief only". But it's still far from what it was on PTS, where you actually could make everything work, because sets gave enough.
how much crit do you need? you keep saying that but i am genuinely curious how much crit you think a player needs.2 -
Gilliamtherogue✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seeing this discussion makes me happy.
To comment on the few people who are struggling with a few hitches on "contradicting" myself;
The existence of the Mother's Sorrow + Juli + Shadow combination was obviously over performing. With 55% bonuses on all set bonuses and Mother's insane spike on the 5 piece, Shadow was being enabled too much, same with Stamina. However, merely tuning those values down to their current live versions leaves plenty of room where Shadow is not nearly as a clear choice as it was. The issue was the compacted nerf of 3% base and 4.575% with full Divines, which has literally left Shadow being OUT CRIT by Warrior and Apprentice alone, completely removing the purpose of this Mundus stone. Merely removing the insane crit bonuses would have enabled more choice making, instead of a static BiS.
The combination of Mother's + Juli was also not a completely applicable setup, it required specific CHD values or group buffs to empower it ahead of other sets, which I talked about to great lengths in many of my streams and videos. We finally went to a state of situational BiS, instead of end all be all. I only suggested it in my summary because it was entirely built out of BoE setups that tackle a lot of content reasonably well.
Now that HotR has gone live, instead of choosing between Precise, Nirn, Sharp, or Infused, we chose from Nirn, Sharp or Infused.
The same goes with Mundus stones; instead of choosing between Thief, Lover, Shadow, or Warrior/Apprentice, we take Warrior/Apprentice or Lover. While there are still situational choices, we now have a much smaller choice pool, and less overall power.
Old member of The Order of Mundus, Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. How far we've come!
Have questions? Send me a message on the forums or my other social media. Seeing people learn is my dream and passion.
Guides and other fun videos at https://youtube.com/c/gilliamtherogue14 -
generalmyrick✭✭✭✭✭
✭How about zos does a = you all complain the sets you use are worthless and wah wah wah over the gold you spent and the hours of farming.
But an expert says its going to be OK and your equipment is fine cuz the games balanced!
Then zps changes its mind because???
Expert produces video = ***!
Chill the *** out people. Wait til moses tells you all where to go and what to think again...you'll be OK....and zos' executives probably know it too."The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are a popular cultural meme, a metaphor representing the choice between:
Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality (red pill)
Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)"
Insight to Agree to Awesome Ratio = 1:6.04:2.76 as of 1/25/2019
Compared to people that I've ignored = I am 18% more insightful, 20% less agreeable, and 88% more awesome.2
Dafek?