Magsorc ridiculously OP

Biro123 · August 2017

Just for a bit of clarification on some of the wilder figures out there..

This is one of my most extreme builds. Its pretty much the limit of what you can do for magsorc damagewise in PVP

https://www.screencast.com/t/CCimng5dA

Starts are with major sorcery up. Do those stats look impressive? Hell yes!!

What is this running? Full Necro and Julianos Dual-Wield with mix-matched max-mag monster pieces.
What are my shield-str and frags tooltips?

Hardend = 14.500 in cyro
Frags = 15643 tooltip.

Now lets look at what we lose to get that..

1. Biggest by far - no spammable - not even ranged light-attacks.
2. Mobility. No space for boundless - so streak only, which isn't enough alone to escape.
3. Resto ulti. Need to run overload for bar-space for the major sorc buff.
4. Ulti choice. Part of the max mag comes from the mages guild boost from slotting meteor.
5. No sustain. Just look at that mag recov. 1051. Stam recov is poor too.
6. No full monster set

Basically, it relies on frags hitting to do anything and 3/4 of those are blocked/dodged/reflected on PC.. You also get about 4-5 full burst rotations (with shields inbetween) until you go oom.

You have no def vs higher numbers (since shields scale so badly that way and we have resto ulti)
No escape vs higher numbers (no major exped or snare-removal)
no def vs oblivion/shieldbreaker - oom in no time spamming heals

No heal debuffs
No major breach (or additional pen from gear like spinners)
No on-demand CC (its too tied to your main damaging ability to be situationally useful)
No utility
No impen/poor resists = quick deaths when shields are down (took a 15k incap yesterday)
Lose stats and ALL heals when pet dies.

Its also using Mage to boost shields - would be better with shadow for more dmg - or atro for more sustain - but those max stats wouldn't look 'quite' so impressive!

But it IS a scary turret when hiding behind friendlies.

Sometimes people will see me running this and get caught by it - and it does hurt.

Other times they will see me running a different build - and sustaining fine.. - but its much, much weaker..

Mostly they think I can do both at once... Which just isn't true.

I guess the point is - it looks hella strong on paper (and this seems to be what everyone *thinks* sorcs are running)- but the build has big, huge weaknesses too.

Anyways - on the subject of shields.. You cannot nerf them without destroying them as a defence mechanism for open-world. The fact that they are strong in small-scale but weak in large-scale means that they really need to work under a different mechanism..

If you nerf for 1v1 - you destroy sorc in open-world.. If you balance for open-world - they are too strong 1v1. Currently its somewhere in the middle (for CP anyway) - which isn't great either

*Edit - corrected frag tooltip

Takes-No-Prisoner · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

https://www.screencast.com/t/CCimng5dA

.....Starts are with major sorcery up. Do those stats look impressive? Hell yes!

0% Mount Stamina is quite impressive for Cyrodiil ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Barbaran wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I would also like to point out one more thing, MagSorc shield can be strengthen and manipulated by the player playing the Sorc(Max Mag). I would like to point out how there is no counter balance here for opponent to use. Sure, I can stack Weapon Damage to combat it, but it's not nearly as effective on Shields without having say, something like Power of the Light. So if the Sorcs opponent, if they can't have their abilities counter act Shields directly(IE the post I wrote above), there needs to be something to put more value into how Spell Power and Weapon Power work against shields itself. Without directly relying on using tools like Power of the Light.

how about you invest some points into the cp tree that adds damage against opponents using a damage shield then? middle blue tree.
you act as if there is no counter.
3.5-4k weap damage with 10-15% put in that tree is overkill to melt shields

I have 10 points into Shattering blows, doesn't really feel as effective to me. Plus, why would a DPS PvP toon overly invest into Anti-Shield Star when I have to push more points into the Ritual constellation?? That is a bad idea to invest into putting too much into countering a class shield I run into 1/4th of the time in Cyrodiil.

I run 3k weap damage in PvP, I have to use PoTL to take down Sorcs. If they run purge, it'll be a tricky battle for me.

i see good stam builds burst sorcs no problem.
sfam buds vigor, roll dodge and shuffle.
sorcs have a shield... thats it basically. low stam low stam recov, just keep up CC and a sorc will fall.
on my stamblade i have no issues, fear small burst, fear, small burst, fear, large burst and theyre dead.
on my stamplar PoL with a DB large burst applied and they blow up.
on my DK i do the same as my NB but i use dizzy swing or shield bash to get a few CCs in to kill theyre stam.

so why are you having issues?

Me personally? I do not have issues against MagSorcs in this current meta. I've 1-Shotted a MagSorc with PoTL(Morrowind patch) a couple of days ago. So I understand a Stamplars strengths fairly well.

On other classes I play, I could see where there could be improvement made to said class to bring their classes tool kit up to snuff with MagSorcs. Hence the large write ups. It's my attempt at trying to see what other people on the forums are struggling with. I'm not at all married to my suggestions, just taking thoughtful jabs at where other classes could possibly use a few minor buffs. Seeing what others have to say in the process.

Derra · August 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if you cut everything on sorcerer damage in half, it would be inline with the other classes.
that's just the truth and it has been that way since 2013 beta.
anyone who aurgues against that is either trying to defend sorcerers because they play one or they just don't PvP.
not joking, and yes i'm serious.
this is not news and has been spoken of repeatedly since 2013.

You perceived truth is very far away from mine.

Biro123 · August 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

https://www.screencast.com/t/CCimng5dA

.....Starts are with major sorcery up. Do those stats look impressive? Hell yes!

0% Mount Stamina is quite impressive for Cyrodiil ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Barbaran wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I would also like to point out one more thing, MagSorc shield can be strengthen and manipulated by the player playing the Sorc(Max Mag). I would like to point out how there is no counter balance here for opponent to use. Sure, I can stack Weapon Damage to combat it, but it's not nearly as effective on Shields without having say, something like Power of the Light. So if the Sorcs opponent, if they can't have their abilities counter act Shields directly(IE the post I wrote above), there needs to be something to put more value into how Spell Power and Weapon Power work against shields itself. Without directly relying on using tools like Power of the Light.

how about you invest some points into the cp tree that adds damage against opponents using a damage shield then? middle blue tree.
you act as if there is no counter.
3.5-4k weap damage with 10-15% put in that tree is overkill to melt shields

I have 10 points into Shattering blows, doesn't really feel as effective to me. Plus, why would a DPS PvP toon overly invest into Anti-Shield Star when I have to push more points into the Ritual constellation?? That is a bad idea to invest into putting too much into countering a class shield I run into 1/4th of the time in Cyrodiil.

I run 3k weap damage in PvP, I have to use PoTL to take down Sorcs. If they run purge, it'll be a tricky battle for me.

i see good stam builds burst sorcs no problem.
sfam buds vigor, roll dodge and shuffle.
sorcs have a shield... thats it basically. low stam low stam recov, just keep up CC and a sorc will fall.
on my stamblade i have no issues, fear small burst, fear, small burst, fear, large burst and theyre dead.
on my stamplar PoL with a DB large burst applied and they blow up.
on my DK i do the same as my NB but i use dizzy swing or shield bash to get a few CCs in to kill theyre stam.

so why are you having issues?

Me personally? I do not have issues against MagSorcs in this current meta. I've 1-Shotted a MagSorc with PoTL(Morrowind patch) a couple of days ago. So I understand a Stamplars strengths fairly well.

On other classes I play, I could see where there could be improvement made to said class to bring their classes tool kit up to snuff with MagSorcs. Hence the large write ups. It's my attempt at trying to see what other people on the forums are struggling with. I'm not at all married to my suggestions, just taking thoughtful jabs at where other classes could possibly use a few minor buffs. Seeing what others have to say in the process.

He he. Yeah, I hate taking time out from the fun parts of the game to do stuff I think is a drag (horse training, writs, selling stuff etc.)

Takes-No-Prisoner · August 2017

Well, if you run out of Stamina on the mount, and you get CC'ed from stealth, you cannot CC break it. I had this happen to me this weekend where I went and did the falling off horse animation. Which locked my toon down for 6 seconds, enough to get 2v1'ed and died pretty fast.

I wish I could normally CC break that.

I know what you mean about fun stuff. I've had the Emperor once ask for food in zone chat, I found his toon and gave him half a stack of Tri-food for free, though he paid me for my generosity any way. I've done it a couple of times for some of these other guys who only PvP. I get that they don't want to invest time into that kinda stuff.

Ragnaroek93 · August 2017

Barbaran wrote: »

make a sorc and fight a good stamblade,dk or even a good stamplar.
tell me how op a magsorc is when your opponent hits vigor everytime you cast curse, rolldodges your frags or CCs you to kill your tiny stam pool.
also see how "easy" it is to cast dps abilities while ensuring your shield is up.
shields have no mitigation, an ambush suprise attack will melt most shields.

Against meele opponents you can just sit in mines and Atronach. Against ranged builds (which are all magicka based, there is basically no viable stamina ranged dps build outside of ganking) you have infinite sustain with Harness. You don't need to roll or block anything because shields are so strong that you can facetank almost everything from a single opponent. I can't think of an easier class to play (which also has so much kill potential). Magsorc open world in 1vX is completely fine as well with wizard set and resto ult, I don't get why people always say the class is bad in 1vX.

Biro123 wrote: »

There's also the addons telling you when to dodge/block those frags..

I honestly wonder if most of the 'sorc op' crowd are on console, yet most of the 'sorcs strong, but not really op' crowd are on PC.

So we can just reduce the requirements to fire Assassins Will right? It's blockable, dodgeable and has a short channel time. It's funny to always see this "you just need to dodge" argument coming from people who are used to block or roll nothing at all because shields just carry them.

Reasons why sorc is too strong and suggestions about what could get changed (of course don't implement all of the following changes, this are just a few suggestions - probably one or two of these are enough):
1. Shieldstacking
2. Mines
3. Curse (some counterplay mechanic yay, also the Curse buff could just be reverted in my opinion)
4. Cooldown on frags (no 10 procs in a row anymore)

Furthermore they should just buff the base shield value a bit and nerf this busted shieldscaling with max magicka.

Biro123 · August 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

There's also the addons telling you when to dodge/block those frags..

I honestly wonder if most of the 'sorc op' crowd are on console, yet most of the 'sorcs strong, but not really op' crowd are on PC.

So we can just reduce the requirements to fire Assassins Will right? It's blockable, dodgeable and has a short channel time. It's funny to always see this "you just need to dodge" argument coming from people who are used to block or roll nothing at all because shields just carry them.

.

I've fought you before. You dodged all but one of my frags *shrug*. I also dodge most frags that come my way too - along with most snipes etc.. Afterall, its better than letting your shields get wiped by them if you have the stam.

Assassins will? Not a good comparison. Magblade gets decent class spammables to fill inbetween bursts, the burst is also much less telegraphed. So yeah, take more frequent burst if you want - but you gotta pay the price, which is losing your spammable.

but idk.. 3 out of 4 of my level 50's are stam.. so yeah, I know how blocking/dodging goes.

CyrusArya · August 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You don't need to roll or block anything because shields are so strong that you can facetank almost everything from a single opponent. I can't think of an easier class to play (which also has so much kill potential).

If this is your experience fighting sorcs, you need to step up your damage big time. I can't think of a single duel vs a sorc where they could simply sit there and face tank the damage coming out of my stamplar. Your other comments also really demonstrate your ignorance, or the incompetence of non sorcs on EU. Melee stam builds (especially in heavy) can literally dance around mines. Shuffle->Vigor->Run/Roll thru mines. Now the mines are gone and the sorc wasted 5 k magicka. Or you could just throw a trap beast inside the mines if you really wanna shut the mines down. Ranged builds? What are you talking about? The only meta ranged builds are mageblade and warden and it is frankly common knowledge that mageblades destroy sorcs in a duel. The match up heavily favors the nightblade caster. Vs a warden? Ya that's a tougher fight but wardens also have shimmering shield which is basically a counter to sorcs.

Maybe on EU there are vastly different dynamics. But from my experience, (non pet) sorcs do not have an inherent advantage 1v1 vs other classes. I'll give you that it's easier to stay alive on. But not easier to kill with, when sorc is the easiest class to counter. Strong, yes. Overpowered? Nope.

Takes-No-Prisoner · August 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Melee stam builds (especially in heavy) can literally dance around mines.

Too add to this comment, Mist Form for Vampire users. Those running it laugh as they press the Mist Form button and go over the mines like they didn't exist at all.

Mines are terrrrribly expensive as well. I love using them on my MagSorc, but hell if I'm not using them correctly its just magkica wasted.

exeeter702 · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

There's also the addons telling you when to dodge/block those frags..

I honestly wonder if most of the 'sorc op' crowd are on console, yet most of the 'sorcs strong, but not really op' crowd are on PC.

So we can just reduce the requirements to fire Assassins Will right? It's blockable, dodgeable and has a short channel time. It's funny to always see this "you just need to dodge" argument coming from people who are used to block or roll nothing at all because shields just carry them.

.

Assassins will? Not a good comparison. Magblade gets decent class spammables to fill inbetween bursts, the burst is also much less telegraphed. So yeah, take more frequent burst if you want - but you gotta pay the price, which is losing your spammable.

Stop it, crushing shock is a perfectly respectable spammable in line with any of mNB options for the same filler.

Assasins will is entirely telegraphed, any good player will know when assasins will is loaded and it is even easier to react to than frags, id argue, when its fired.

Biro123 · August 2017

exeeter702 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

There's also the addons telling you when to dodge/block those frags..

I honestly wonder if most of the 'sorc op' crowd are on console, yet most of the 'sorcs strong, but not really op' crowd are on PC.

So we can just reduce the requirements to fire Assassins Will right? It's blockable, dodgeable and has a short channel time. It's funny to always see this "you just need to dodge" argument coming from people who are used to block or roll nothing at all because shields just carry them.

.

Assassins will? Not a good comparison. Magblade gets decent class spammables to fill inbetween bursts, the burst is also much less telegraphed. So yeah, take more frequent burst if you want - but you gotta pay the price, which is losing your spammable.

Stop it, crushing shock is a perfectly respectable spammable in line with any of mNB options for the same filler.

Assasins will is entirely telegraphed, any good player will know when assasins will is loaded and it is even easier to react to than frags, id argue, when its fired.

For one its a LOT cheaper - and being a spammable and all, it allows for much less regen (so more dmg), and secondly allows for DW setups to use it.
Those are the biggest barriers a magsorc has with staff/crushing shock when trying to maximise burst.

Its an example of why its stupid to just suggest removing an intended limitation that a particular class has just because another class doesn't have that exact same limitation - they obviously have different limitations of their own.

Morvane · August 2017

permaban for this sir, please

thankyourat · August 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You don't need to roll or block anything because shields are so strong that you can facetank almost everything from a single opponent. I can't think of an easier class to play (which also has so much kill potential).

If this is your experience fighting sorcs, you need to step up your damage big time. I can't think of a single duel vs a sorc where they could simply sit there and face tank the damage coming out of my stamplar. Your other comments also really demonstrate your ignorance, or the incompetence of non sorcs on EU. Melee stam builds (especially in heavy) can literally dance around mines. Shuffle->Vigor->Run/Roll thru mines. Now the mines are gone and the sorc wasted 5 k magicka. Or you could just throw a trap beast inside the mines if you really wanna shut the mines down. Ranged builds? What are you talking about? The only meta ranged builds are mageblade and warden and it is frankly common knowledge that mageblades destroy sorcs in a duel. The match up heavily favors the nightblade caster. Vs a warden? Ya that's a tougher fight but wardens also have shimmering shield which is basically a counter to sorcs.

Maybe on EU there are vastly different dynamics. But from my experience, (non pet) sorcs do not have an inherent advantage 1v1 vs other classes. I'll give you that it's easier to stay alive on. But not easier to kill with, when sorc is the easiest class to counter. Strong, yes. Overpowered? Nope.

I'm not so sure magblade completely destroys sorc any more. Up until this patch i would've agreed with you because siphoning attacks was so op i could stack all damage and literally one shot most players in the game. I don't believe a build like that is still viable open world. We have to build alot more sustain than in the past which is causing fights between magblades and sorcs to end in a draw. Because magblade damage comes in spikes a sorc can pretty much face tank you since you can't pressure their stam pool anymore. I actually tested it with my friend yesterday he wore lich and amberplasm and i had him Just stack shields and not fight back. I couldn't break through his shields and even with cc'ing every 7 seconds with tri pots he never ran out of stamina. I do agree magblade is the better duelist overall but if a sorc is played this way you might as well forfeit or run away and save your potions. Or eqiup resource poisons which is what I'm doing now. If harness magicka ever gets nerfed I'll stop using them again

I'm almost pretty sure a magsorc can stall out any magicka build if they chose to turtle in shields. Before any nerfs to mag sorc take place i would like to see a nerf to harness magicka. Which I've been saying for almost 2 years now it's op.

leepalmer95 · August 2017

Countcalorie wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Countcalorie wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Countcalorie wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

20k Frag tool tip and 50k mag, is balanced. dunno what u talk about kappa

Aaand another uninformed post.

Alright.. 50k mag.. What, exactly in the sorc toolkit gives you 50k mag? Last I heard it was gear and passives that gave stats.. and guess what? sorc doesn't have any max mag passives (unlike some classes).

NOBODY gets a 20k frag tooltip. Mine sits between 12 and 14k depending on build - and I ususally use around 50k max mag.

I'm not disputing sorcs are strong - but the amount of sheer BS coming from these nerf threads is unreal.

If you have less then 50k mag on a sorc your doing something wrong.oh and bound armor is a 8% magic boost and sorc shields have more magic scaling then any ability in the game(except maybe hircine's rage)also the fact that sorcs dont need impen in pvp is also pretty disgusting.and yes Ive played sorc before you ask.

No one uses bound armor
Even pet builds aren't hitting 50k magicka and those need 2 slot at least.

Where is this 20k frag tooltip build?

Sorc don't need impen? Have you even played a sorc? Let me guess your another sorc is OP crying forum warrior without a mag sorc.

Lets be honest you was talking out your ass and got called out for? Show me the proof and stats.

can you read?I would Love to show you the 18k shield tooltips(while in pvp with battle spirit) and the 17k frag tooltip.
Not only that I would be pleased to show proof.but I'm on Xbox and cant post xbox screenshots even if I used my pc can I?
sounds like you need to learn play your own class.
your the only one speaking out your ass.

Just post the build and post your stats and i'll put your build into uesp and see if your talking out of your ass.

Well *** you caught me.its not even my own character.but I seen the screenshots.truth is I dont know what he's running but hes hit me with a 9k frag proc and posted a screenshot of a 17k shield in pvp.but your pretty *** if you cant reach 50 max magic on a sorc.its extremely easy even now with this patch.
5 necropotence
4 spinners
1 inferno guardian heavy
1 grothdar medium
divines on small pieces and infused on big pieces
slot innerlight and bound armor
slot meteor
get all mages guild passives
play as a high elf
get full undaunted
profit?
gonna asume your on pc na due to the fact that you have no clue what your talking about.
I did exaggerated the frag tooltip though not what it hits for when wearing 2600 impen and 20k restences.

Lmao so stack everything into magicka.

Use pets (in pvp lmao)
Use bound armor
Innerlight

Give all most of your skill slots for passives.
Have no mag sustain
Have no stam sustain

Whats the point again? I'd cc you twice and that would be it.

NBrookus · August 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You don't need to roll or block anything because shields are so strong that you can facetank almost everything from a single opponent. I can't think of an easier class to play (which also has so much kill potential).

If this is your experience fighting sorcs, you need to step up your damage big time. I can't think of a single duel vs a sorc where they could simply sit there and face tank the damage coming out of my stamplar. Your other comments also really demonstrate your ignorance, or the incompetence of non sorcs on EU. Melee stam builds (especially in heavy) can literally dance around mines. Shuffle->Vigor->Run/Roll thru mines. Now the mines are gone and the sorc wasted 5 k magicka. Or you could just throw a trap beast inside the mines if you really wanna shut the mines down. Ranged builds? What are you talking about? The only meta ranged builds are mageblade and warden and it is frankly common knowledge that mageblades destroy sorcs in a duel. The match up heavily favors the nightblade caster. Vs a warden? Ya that's a tougher fight but wardens also have shimmering shield which is basically a counter to sorcs.

Maybe on EU there are vastly different dynamics. But from my experience, (non pet) sorcs do not have an inherent advantage 1v1 vs other classes. I'll give you that it's easier to stay alive on. But not easier to kill with, when sorc is the easiest class to counter. Strong, yes. Overpowered? Nope.

I'm not so sure magblade completely destroys sorc any more. Up until this patch i would've agreed with you because siphoning attacks was so op i could stack all damage and literally one shot most players in the game. I don't believe a build like that is still viable open world. We have to build alot more sustain than in the past which is causing fights between magblades and sorcs to end in a draw. Because magblade damage comes in spikes a sorc can pretty much face tank you since you can't pressure their stam pool anymore. I actually tested it with my friend yesterday he wore lich and amberplasm and i had him Just stack shields and not fight back. I couldn't break through his shields and even with cc'ing every 7 seconds with tri pots he never ran out of stamina. I do agree magblade is the better duelist overall but if a sorc is played this way you might as well forfeit or run away and save your potions. Or eqiup resource poisons which is what I'm doing now. If harness magicka ever gets nerfed I'll stop using them again

I'm almost pretty sure a magsorc can stall out any magicka build if they chose to turtle in shields. Before any nerfs to mag sorc take place i would like to see a nerf to harness magicka. Which I've been saying for almost 2 years now it's op.

Depends on the sorc build. A DW sorc will lose almost every time to an equally skilled magblade or destro sorc; they have no real stam pool and CC's plus constant pressure from crushing shock/swallow soul will usually win out in the long run if the DW sorc doesn't get the drop on them early. This kind of build is essentially for killing stam players or group play. I play it when I (rarely) play sorc, I like it, but it has counters. A lot of them. (And I'd call DW essentially dead with HotR, but I've said that before and might change my mind again.)

The sorcs stacking a robust amount of stam and regen via amberplasm, shacklebreaker, etc. can't dish out the extreme burst damage but it's VERY hard to win by pressuring their stam pool.

And then there's the Run v X builds that drain you of resources and then kill you.

Some people seem to think you get all 3 in one sorc package; it just doesn't happen.

elfantasmo · August 2017

SHATTERING BLOWS oh and ltp

Derra · August 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Countcalorie wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Countcalorie wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Countcalorie wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

20k Frag tool tip and 50k mag, is balanced. dunno what u talk about kappa

Aaand another uninformed post.

Alright.. 50k mag.. What, exactly in the sorc toolkit gives you 50k mag? Last I heard it was gear and passives that gave stats.. and guess what? sorc doesn't have any max mag passives (unlike some classes).

NOBODY gets a 20k frag tooltip. Mine sits between 12 and 14k depending on build - and I ususally use around 50k max mag.

I'm not disputing sorcs are strong - but the amount of sheer BS coming from these nerf threads is unreal.

If you have less then 50k mag on a sorc your doing something wrong.oh and bound armor is a 8% magic boost and sorc shields have more magic scaling then any ability in the game(except maybe hircine's rage)also the fact that sorcs dont need impen in pvp is also pretty disgusting.and yes Ive played sorc before you ask.

No one uses bound armor
Even pet builds aren't hitting 50k magicka and those need 2 slot at least.

Where is this 20k frag tooltip build?

Sorc don't need impen? Have you even played a sorc? Let me guess your another sorc is OP crying forum warrior without a mag sorc.

Lets be honest you was talking out your ass and got called out for? Show me the proof and stats.

can you read?I would Love to show you the 18k shield tooltips(while in pvp with battle spirit) and the 17k frag tooltip.
Not only that I would be pleased to show proof.but I'm on Xbox and cant post xbox screenshots even if I used my pc can I?
sounds like you need to learn play your own class.
your the only one speaking out your ass.

Just post the build and post your stats and i'll put your build into uesp and see if your talking out of your ass.

Well *** you caught me.its not even my own character.but I seen the screenshots.truth is I dont know what he's running but hes hit me with a 9k frag proc and posted a screenshot of a 17k shield in pvp.but your pretty *** if you cant reach 50 max magic on a sorc.its extremely easy even now with this patch.
5 necropotence
4 spinners
1 inferno guardian heavy
1 grothdar medium
divines on small pieces and infused on big pieces
slot innerlight and bound armor
slot meteor
get all mages guild passives
play as a high elf
get full undaunted
profit?
gonna asume your on pc na due to the fact that you have no clue what your talking about.
I did exaggerated the frag tooltip though not what it hits for when wearing 2600 impen and 20k restences.

Lmao so stack everything into magicka.

Use pets (in pvp lmao)
Use bound armor
Innerlight

Give all most of your skill slots for passives.
Have no mag sustain
Have no stam sustain

Whats the point again? I'd cc you twice and that would be it.

It´s a great build if all you plan to do is shooting people out of your own factions zerg.

However most peoples irritation about sorcs is based on them getting 1vXed by sorcs (or atleast the sorc not dying when getting zerged) and their absolute refusal to understand the class, how they work and what gear they use in those situations.

The templates getting thrown around here are nowhere near what anyone that does run solo as a sorc wears - but admitting that would at the same time admit that they are not getting killed by OP class with an OP template but that they simply die because they´re not good enough to fight against a sustain setup and atleast get a draw.

amir412 · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

20k Frag tool tip and 50k mag, is balanced. dunno what u talk about kappa

Aaand another uninformed post.

Alright.. 50k mag.. What, exactly in the sorc toolkit gives you 50k mag? Last I heard it was gear and passives that gave stats.. and guess what? sorc doesn't have any max mag passives (unlike some classes).

NOBODY gets a 20k frag tooltip. Mine sits between 12 and 14k depending on build - and I ususally use around 50k max mag.

I'm not disputing sorcs are strong - but the amount of sheer BS coming from these nerf threads is unreal.

I dont expect casuals to reach that kind of stats... try harder and u'll see its possible.
I'll tell u even more, ive reached 53k mag and 23k EMPOWERD frag tool tip. and i didnt even invested much like i do on my main building this. (didnt even needed to slot a pet btw)

Cyrediath · August 2017

OP you are overreacting. I have the easiest time in cyrodiil with my sorcerer its true that they may be a lil bit more powerful but not op as you say. They usually run out og stamina and die after few stuns but there are some builds with good amount of stamina regen and yea they are very powerful...

leepalmer95 · August 2017

amir412 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

20k Frag tool tip and 50k mag, is balanced. dunno what u talk about kappa

Aaand another uninformed post.

Alright.. 50k mag.. What, exactly in the sorc toolkit gives you 50k mag? Last I heard it was gear and passives that gave stats.. and guess what? sorc doesn't have any max mag passives (unlike some classes).

NOBODY gets a 20k frag tooltip. Mine sits between 12 and 14k depending on build - and I ususally use around 50k max mag.

I'm not disputing sorcs are strong - but the amount of sheer BS coming from these nerf threads is unreal.

I dont expect casuals to reach that kind of stats... try harder and u'll see its possible.
I'll tell u even more, ive reached 53k mag and 23k EMPOWERD frag tool tip. and i didnt even invested much like i do on my main building this. (didnt even needed to slot a pet btw)

'Casuals'

By casuals you mean investing everything into dmg throwing on 5 mage guild skills, drinking a pot, continuous, procing the frag then empowering it and taking a s/s xD

I too can fake over inflate my tooltips. But whats the point with no skills, pets and no sustain.

amir412 · August 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

I dont expect casuals to reach that kind of stats... try harder and u'll see its possible.
I'll tell u even more, ive reached 53k mag and 23k EMPOWERD frag tool tip. and i didnt even invested much like i do on my main building this. (didnt even needed to slot a pet btw)

'Casuals'

By casuals you mean investing everything into dmg throwing on 5 mage guild skills, drinking a pot, continuous, procing the frag then empowering it and taking a s/s xD

I too can fake over inflate my tooltips. But whats the point with no skills, pets and no sustain.

lel, I had only meteor + mage light slotted to maximize it, and had full sorc utility. pretty sad, i know.
ofc u can create other builds with less stats and higher sustain, but this one was ez mode.

Ocelot9x · August 2017

Bad players loves sorc: its so easy to survive as one even without having to l2p. Even if someone is bad he can easily spam two button being really hard to kill (try bursting 35khp),and don't tell me mag/Stam recovery is a issue for you because you'll lose every right to write here.

And negate. Period.

Not saying that sorc damage need to be toned down but I think his survivability needs to be in line with other classes. Try playing a medium build or a light armor templar/mag dk and you will see why we have so many nerf sorc thread: they're the easiest and most rewarding class

Merlin13KAGL · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

Yes, surge is an A+ skill, and here's why. All of the abilities that grant major sorcery or brutality start out as A grade skills, because this is the most sought after buff. Surge then adds a substantial heal. My magsorc gets 3000 health per crit hit. The ability works every second, but let's assume a range of one crit hit every 1-3 seconds. The value of the heals over the 22 seconds becomes 21,000 - 66,000 health.

66k heals over 22 seconds...in Cyrodiil...with Battle Spirit active? This is perhaps my favorite part. You're counting on an extemely high crit build (generally not the case in PvP because of Impen) or every single hit is landing in those 22 seconds. Maybe, I don't know? Dodge? Move? CC? Interrupt? Stun?

Even if you're standing there eating every single hit (and apparently offering no counter damage to help offset the ensuing super heal), there's no Battle-Spirited 66k healing going on by Surge alone.

davey1107 wrote: »

@leepalmer95

If you read my post (and no offense if you don't, it's long and thorough), you'll see that I say that it's not that any given skill is in itself OP...it's that sorc skills do too much, opening bar slots for them to bring in additional skills, which gives them increased capacity and that's what makes them OP.

You cite streak. Streak is a gap closer that stuns. Other classes have this, and there are weapon gap closers. However, streak is slightly different in that it doesn't require a target lock. Thus it can be used to hunt, unlike most other gap closers.

If by "hunt," you mean "guess," you are correct. (I suppose it's like limited Nightblade "Battleship," except the (smart) ships move.)

Any class can equally "hunt" by placing random AoE about. Steak is pretty limited and costly hunting mechanism. If you're getting consistently revealed by Streak, it's got nothing to do with an OP class skill. It's simply the other player out-thinking you.

Don't be predictable.

This feature also allows it to act as a "gap extender" - it can be used to escape. And this illustrates my point - stamblades have gap closers and gap extenders via ambush and cloak. But that's two skills on the bar to do those two things. It's not a direct apples to apples comparison, but that's not the point. The point is that when sorcs have sorc skills that are a little better at bringing addl features, and they can free up a couple of slots, that's when they become OP.

So can the speed boost from roll dodge/bow line, rapids, speed pots...

None of those lock you into one direction or bug out on inclines. The only way it's being used as an 'extender' is if you already have some distance in the first place - other gap closers can cover almost 2x the distance of a single streak.

Biro123 · August 2017

amir412 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

20k Frag tool tip and 50k mag, is balanced. dunno what u talk about kappa

Aaand another uninformed post.

Alright.. 50k mag.. What, exactly in the sorc toolkit gives you 50k mag? Last I heard it was gear and passives that gave stats.. and guess what? sorc doesn't have any max mag passives (unlike some classes).

NOBODY gets a 20k frag tooltip. Mine sits between 12 and 14k depending on build - and I ususally use around 50k max mag.

I'm not disputing sorcs are strong - but the amount of sheer BS coming from these nerf threads is unreal.

I dont expect casuals to reach that kind of stats... try harder and u'll see its possible.
I'll tell u even more, ive reached 53k mag and 23k EMPOWERD frag tool tip. and i didnt even invested much like i do on my main building this. (didnt even needed to slot a pet btw)

Let's have it then.

I've showed an extremely high toolti-dmg setup that gets nowhere near that.

So show the goods. Let's see some proof.

Ghostbane · August 2017

tl;dr: "I should be able to kill people experienced with a class quickly and efficiently"

RadRzRg · August 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc.

It's not a "theory" though, Wroebel does in fact heavily favor Magicka Sorcs.

Oh, give us a rest.
Streak=nerfed
Frags=nerfed
Shields=nerfed
CPs favouring the above: nerfed
From my experience, all of you sorcerer haters are stamina nightblades that get pulled off your trusty cloak by our soul assaults and curses. Word of advice: Git gud.

RadRzRg · August 2017

Countcalorie wrote: »

"wards require skil" l LMFAO
I main a magwarden and the main reason its so effective is the wards+living trevelis combo.I play with ungodly amounts of ping 500(just being connected to xbox live not even my eso ping which is definitely more then that) being a good day and I do quite fine due to how much slack wards give.You get around 27k+shields when stacking harness on any decent sorc build.top that up with unlimited sustain and you have your average day in Xbox eu.

What kind of build has 27k+ shields at 100% HP with "unlimited sustain". I have not seen a sorc with this shield strength since Thieves guild. At least not a sustain-more-than-30-seconds one.

RadRzRg · August 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Eh, I don't want a full nerf. Only tone down shields and give DK a slightly changed implosion passive. Also adjust bolt to not stop roots, but if shields are balanced, buff bolt a little so sorcs can keep survivability via movability.

Have you ever played a sorc?If a DK talons you and you streak you REMAIN rooted.

incite · August 2017

"This thread will now be closed as it has been discussed thoroughly and concluded that sorcs are well balanced."

"Thank you for your input"

davey1107 · August 2017

@Merlin13KAGL

Surge heals: Surge offers a flat rate heal when you deal critical damage, as often as once per second. I cited a range because its performance will vary. Current buildmaster sorc builds have a 45-50% crit rating. My range estimates a crit every 1-3 seconds. Is this realistic in pvp? Sure, especially we remember that many attacks do multiple sets of damage that can each crit. Crushing shock, for example, deals three hits per proc, offering an 87.5% chance that one of the three will be a crit with a 50% rating. These heals also work in conjunction with shields...sorcs don't need a constant incoming heal, they just need to restore health behind the shields.

Regardless, the point isn't what the actual battle tested results are, it's how this feature compares to other major brutality/sorcery skills. It offers an advanatage that is so far out of line with the others that there's little question it outperforms them.

Streak: again, youre missing the point, which is not that individual skills are OP, but that the class is OP due to skills that stack features. Yes, other classes can gap close and other classes can hunt with an AOE...by USING TWO BAR SLOTS. And that's the point...overly multitasking abilities offer the ability to slot more, thereby having more tools at their command.

As for it being a mediocre extender...meh...I'm not saying it's a perfect skill in this regard, but it does offer at least some functionality that no other gap closer offers. And no, I don't consider "running away" to be an ability, lol.

These two abilities involve heals and escape. In a nerf post like this, people will often cite other classes that perform as well or better. It's valid to say that magplars are better healers, A+ compared to mag sorcs' A- heals. And nightblades are A+ escapists compared to mag sorcs A- escapes. But when you list all of the various elements of fighting in pvp, mag sorcs rate as an A in about every category - damage, wards, heals, mobility, range, etc. They don't have any major weaknesses, like magplar's dps challenges or stamblade's lack of shields and squishiness. And they can stack all of their advantages - multiple damage types, multiple shields, multiple heals. This is what's making them OP, through various mechanisms, CPs and abilities.

And to be fair, that's my theory, not an assertion. My post is an attempt to analyze what a lot of us are seeing observstionally, which is that mag sorcs are light armor builds who feel confident enough to walk unhidden into uneven odds in close quarter open world combat, which seems a bit absurd for a light armor non-tank class, lol.