Magsorc ridiculously OP

gibous · August 2017

For anyone on PC NA emotionally traumatized by the sorcerer class, I invite you to my guild where I offer free counseling, tips, and support. I'm not a licensed professional but am willing to help because I care about the community. Posts like this pop up so often here that it's clear to me the forum is not enough of an outlet.

Teabag me in game or send me a message/mail @gibous and I'll pop you an invite.

br0steen · August 2017

I kill mag sorcs all the time....

Maybe try not being a cruddy player?

Takes-No-Prisoner · August 2017

Morgul667 wrote: »

Seriously though, it's been a while I had troubles to kill a mag sorc not sure why they get all the attention

Me neither, like if the MagSorc wants to kite you and play games around rocks, in Open World PvP, I can just pack my bags and leave lol. I don't need that 1,600 AP if hes gonna go rock climbing LoS sniping with me.

gibous wrote: »

For anyone on PC NA emotionally traumatized by the sorcerer class, I invite you to my guild where I offer free counseling, tips, and support. I'm not a licensed professional but am willing to help because I care about the community. Posts like this pop up so often here that it's clear to me the forum is not enough of an outlet.

Teabag me in game or send me a message/mail @gibous and I'll pop you an invite.

This is a really good troll post. Thank you.

Lexxypwns · August 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

There are a couple issue with sorcs in general.

The first and biggest issue is the "animation cancelers" that aren't actually doing it manually. It's sort of a whatever... keep it up and claim otherwise thing. So much grey area in it, it's become useless to even discuss.

The other issues are:

Haunting curse is way overpowered in pvp. It was "added" as a pve dps tool and turned into the thing that every single magsorc runs in pvp. It either needs to be reverted to one explosion, given a cast time, put back to being blockable or all of the above.

The overload "3rd bar" that acts as an utility bar. I'm fine with overload, I'm fine with overload bar being a separate bar that they can use. I'm not fine with the fact that the way overload operates allows them to have a 3rd bar to swap to for all the extra abilities when they aren't really using overload. Overload should act like every other ultimates, where when you use it it's going to cost ultimate just to get to the bar and not being some bar swap utility bar. Every other class has 10 abilities on 2 bars and 2 ultimates. Sorcs get 15 abilities and 2 ultimates (as long as 1 is overload).

Any sorc with a 3rd bar has to give up either an offensive ult(DBoS> soul assault btw) or resto ult,
You lose too much I think.

MarzAttakz · August 2017

gibous wrote: »

For anyone on PC NA emotionally traumatized by the sorcerer class, I invite you to my guild where I offer free counseling, tips, and support. I'm not a licensed professional but am willing to help because I care about the community. Posts like this pop up so often here that it's clear to me the forum is not enough of an outlet.

Teabag me in game or send me a message/mail @gibous and I'll pop you an invite.

flat_drawstring_bag,x1250-bg,f8f8f8.u5.jpg

Alpheu5 · August 2017

TarrNokk wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Sorcs are just so annoying to fight because of shields. I'm tired of all these draws. They just stall fights out. If you play solo sorcs are by far the most annoying class to come across. I just want shields stacking to be toned down a bit nothing crazy just make it to where they can't stall out fights so effectively. Curse is also annoying since about 60% of the player base on xbox na are mag sorcs i often find myself getting blown up by curse over and over and then i die and respawn and still have about 4 curses on me going off lol

Sorc without Shield is insta dead in light armor.

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

TarrNokk wrote: »

Sorc without Shield is insta dead in light armor.
Maybe you only play in CP campaigns and are not strong enough for higher leveld sorcs, maybe its just a l2p issue. For my mag sorc I can say, I am far away from imba or tanky, I just have defensive gear and use shields and healing but still die a lot -not always, but still- and I am far away to get many kills.
Someone told me, many of those imba-tanky-heavy-dps-sorcs are using macroes, which would explain the massive gap between me and other sorcs which are able to throw out 4 combos in 2 seconds.

No ward = insta death for sorc. that's true.

This is just false. There are alternative methods of damage mitigation, even in light armor.

thankyourat · August 2017

@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times

SanTii.92 · August 2017

yawn

Baconlad · August 2017

Think sorcs are OP? Fek...try fighting a mag warden built similarly. They only use two shields, the damage is way higher, which was intended as they dont have a magic execute. I struggle bus HARD on 50k magic wardens. Fighting one feels like fighting a stamblade procblade in light armor without shields.

Sorcs are easy AF though. Wait for their shield to go down and burst em. I play magplar. And i can confirm here, unless the sorc is using overload one shot set up, magplar outburst them.

I normally let them go balls to the walls damage on me, let them think they have the upper hand, i cast resto ult, flip on them and if they are unshielded, my dark flare unstable core, javelin combo will destroy them. Even if they manage to live through the burst with 20% health, an unstable core in radiant oppression will ensure that theyr shields that are being frantically casted will go down then boom unstable drops them.

Shields are impossible for most toons to burst through, they might be overperforming, but i feel like they are fine. Here would be a good way to deal with them. Make them scale differently. Currebtly they scale only from magic. Hiw about scaling less with magic and more from spell damage, that way other classes could use them as well for a change, rather just classes that can use necropotence. Or *** just fix necro to be 2500 mag outright, no stipulations needed

Waffennacht · August 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

Think sorcs are OP? Fek...try fighting a mag warden built similarly. They only use two shields, the damage is way higher, which was intended as they dont have a magic execute. I struggle bus HARD on 50k magic wardens. Fighting one feels like fighting a stamblade procblade in light armor without shields.

Sorcs are easy AF though. Wait for their shield to go down and burst em. I play magplar. And i can confirm here, unless the sorc is using overload one shot set up, magplar outburst them.

I normally let them go balls to the walls damage on me, let them think they have the upper hand, i cast resto ult, flip on them and if they are unshielded, my dark flare unstable core, javelin combo will destroy them. Even if they manage to live through the burst with 20% health, an unstable core in radiant oppression will ensure that theyr shields that are being frantically casted will go down then boom unstable drops them.

Shields are impossible for most toons to burst through, they might be overperforming, but i feel like they are fine. Here would be a good way to deal with them. Make them scale differently. Currebtly they scale only from magic. Hiw about scaling less with magic and more from spell damage, that way other classes could use them as well for a change, rather just classes that can use necropotence. Or *** just fix necro to be 2500 mag outright, no stipulations needed

Shut up! Sorcerers are OP! Don't you dare get anyone's attention on anything but Sorcs...

*Whispers* Have you tried Malubeth on a Mag Warden? Trellis means auto Mending and Vitality...*whispers*

davey1107 · August 2017

@Zer0oo

If you think that sorcs are the only viable magic class in pvp, then I'm not the one who needs to L2P. I do quite well with my magplar, mag Warden...and magblades are LETHAL in the current patch. I'm not sure about DKs...they've always been too boring for me to pull mine out of storage.

@Derra

Yes, surge is an A+ skill, and here's why. All of the abilities that grant major sorcery or brutality start out as A grade skills, because this is the most sought after buff. Surge then adds a substantial heal. My magsorc gets 3000 health per crit hit. The ability works every second, but let's assume a range of one crit hit every 1-3 seconds. The value of the heals over the 22 seconds becomes 21,000 - 66,000 health.

Then we compare this to other sources of major. None perform close to this. The closest is Rally, which is also an A+ skill. It offers major brutality, then 700 healing every 2 second for 33 seconds. It offers about 10k health over its duration, but to compare apples to apples we need to consider it over 22 seconds and call the heals 7700. To compete with surge's healing capabilities, a stam toon using rally needs to stack vigor, which gives 9k over 5 seconds. So we end up with:

Surge: major sorcery and 66k heals at a cost of 4,000 magic and one slot

Rally + vigor x4: major brutality and 43,700 heals at a cost of 14,900 stamina and two slots.

Of course, none of this makes surge in itself OP, it's just a fair bit better. But when those heals are landing behind the most powerful wards in the game, this is where sorcs are being given an unfair synergy with their tool box.

Vapirko · August 2017

All mag sorcs be like

Zer0oo · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

@Zer0oo

If you think that sorcs are the only viable magic class in pvp, then I'm not the one who needs to L2P. I do quite well with my magplar, mag Warden...and magblades are LETHAL in the current patch. I'm not sure about DKs...they've always been too boring for me to pull mine out of storage.

@Derra

Yes, surge is an A+ skill, and here's why. All of the abilities that grant major sorcery or brutality start out as A grade skills, because this is the most sought after buff. Surge then adds a substantial heal. My magsorc gets 3000 health per crit hit. The ability works every second, but let's assume a range of one crit hit every 1-3 seconds. The value of the heals over the 22 seconds becomes 21,000 - 66,000 health.

Then we compare this to other sources of major. None perform close to this. The closest is Rally, which is also an A+ skill. It offers major brutality, then 700 healing every 2 second for 33 seconds. It offers about 10k health over its duration, but to compare apples to apples we need to consider it over 22 seconds and call the heals 7700. To compete with surge's healing capabilities, a stam toon using rally needs to stack vigor, which gives 9k over 5 seconds. So we end up with:

Surge: major sorcery and 66k heals at a cost of 4,000 magic and one slot

Rally + vigor x4: major brutality and 43,700 heals at a cost of 14,900 stamina and two slots.

Of course, none of this makes surge in itself OP, it's just a fair bit better. But when those heals are landing behind the most powerful wards in the game, this is where sorcs are being given an unfair synergy with their tool box.

Wait you are saying that all classes are lethal in pvp, which means they are extrem strong, but still think sorcs are op? I am confused

Also i said solo pvp if you play at least on pc eu you need a skill to run away from zergs and all magica classes can't move in the perm snare meta.

OdinForge · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

@Derra

Yes, surge is an A+ skill, and here's why. All of the abilities that grant major sorcery or brutality start out as A grade skills, because this is the most sought after buff.

What kind of argument is that?

Gilvoth · August 2017

it is true that magicka sorcerer is overpowered.
it has been this way since beta 2013.
not news, they know it and for some reason allow it.

Lexxypwns · August 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about something or advocate for nerfs when you haven't used the available counters.

I see this a lot, particularly from the sorc is op crowd, but there's no viable sorc build that can handle cost increase poisons if they're turtling. You either give up too much damage to sustain or too much sustain for damage if you're building to compensate for poisons so most sorcs just don't bother

Derra · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

@Derra

Yes, surge is an A+ skill, and here's why. All of the abilities that grant major sorcery or brutality start out as A grade skills, because this is the most sought after buff. Surge then adds a substantial heal. My magsorc gets 3000 health per crit hit. The ability works every second, but let's assume a range of one crit hit every 1-3 seconds. The value of the heals over the 22 seconds becomes 21,000 - 66,000 health.

Are you really giving pve tooltips as an example?

Surge heals for ~1000 hps if at all in actual pvp fights. It´s abysmal - which is the reason why many sorcs prefer to use degeneration over surge.

The only skill worse than surge (for pvp) is igneous weapons in that regard.

thankyourat · August 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about something or advocate for nerfs when you haven't used the available counters.

I see this a lot, particularly from the sorc is op crowd, but there's no viable sorc build that can handle cost increase poisons if they're turtling. You either give up too much damage to sustain or too much sustain for damage if you're building to compensate for poisons so most sorcs just don't bother

You are right I try to be to noble i didn't want to use cost increase poisons because i feel it's too much of advantage over pretty much everyone you fight. I was trying to avoid using something that's broken to combat another broken mechanic, but the rise in sorc popularity and the xbox zergs are sending me to the dark side lol

geonsocal · August 2017

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Once I played all classes, I realized the folly in calling any class OP when its really the player skill factor.

i'm there with ya...i play em all, and, i am most definitely not an OP mag sorc player

it is true though - once you get your shields sorted out - loads of fun...mag sorcs simply breathe high damage output...

OdinForge · August 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about something or advocate for nerfs when you haven't used the available counters.

I see this a lot, particularly from the sorc is op crowd, but there's no viable sorc build that can handle cost increase poisons if they're turtling. You either give up too much damage to sustain or too much sustain for damage if you're building to compensate for poisons so most sorcs just don't bother

You are right I try to be to noble i didn't want to use cost increase poisons because i feel it's too much of advantage over pretty much everyone you fight. I was trying to avoid using something that's broken to combat another broken mechanic, but the rise in sorc popularity and the xbox zergs are sending me to the dark side lol

A person shouldn't need cost increase poisons to combat a Sorc, but if 6 people are getting bullied that bad by a sorc why not everyone else uses them.

leepalmer95 · August 2017

I read until "Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds."

Figured out at that point the guy is either lying or over exaggerating a lot and this thread is just another 'nerf sorc because is can't kill them thread'

A mag sorc can't survive against 2 good players in good builds because theirs shields won't hold up.

Lexxypwns · August 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about something or advocate for nerfs when you haven't used the available counters.

I see this a lot, particularly from the sorc is op crowd, but there's no viable sorc build that can handle cost increase poisons if they're turtling. You either give up too much damage to sustain or too much sustain for damage if you're building to compensate for poisons so most sorcs just don't bother

You are right I try to be to noble i didn't want to use cost increase poisons because i feel it's too much of advantage over pretty much everyone you fight. I was trying to avoid using something that's broken to combat another broken mechanic, but the rise in sorc popularity and the xbox zergs are sending me to the dark side lol

What you call nobility another calls being a scrub. I know you're good and don't think you're a scrub, but I can't imagine being willing to gimp yourself so hard as a solo player. The deck is already stacked against you, run a meta-like setup and watch the bodies pile up.

Those xbox zergs are so real that I put cloak back on my bars.

@OdinForge you need resource poisons to counter any class or build going full turtle. There are too many cheap defensive ultis that allow you to reset fights, you only need about 40 seconds of sustain at most between defensive ultis, if you have that you can tank forever against unorganized opponents, even in light armor

OdinForge · August 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about something or advocate for nerfs when you haven't used the available counters.

I see this a lot, particularly from the sorc is op crowd, but there's no viable sorc build that can handle cost increase poisons if they're turtling. You either give up too much damage to sustain or too much sustain for damage if you're building to compensate for poisons so most sorcs just don't bother

You are right I try to be to noble i didn't want to use cost increase poisons because i feel it's too much of advantage over pretty much everyone you fight. I was trying to avoid using something that's broken to combat another broken mechanic, but the rise in sorc popularity and the xbox zergs are sending me to the dark side lol

What you call nobility another calls being a scrub. I know you're good and don't think you're a scrub, but I can't imagine being willing to gimp yourself so hard as a solo player. The deck is already stacked against you, run a meta-like setup and watch the bodies pile up.

Those xbox zergs are so real that I put cloak back on my bars.

@OdinForge you need resource poisons to counter any class or build going full turtle. There are too many cheap defensive ultis that allow you to reset fights, you only need about 40 seconds of sustain at most between defensive ultis, if you have that you can tank forever against unorganized opponents, even in light armor

Not that I necessarily disagree with you when it comes to good tank builds, or pet sorc type builds. Those builds however tend to be minimal threat, and while they're tanky they aren't really beating up 6 people and often crumble under a potl/purifying.

As opposed to the types of sorcs complained about in threads like this, those builds are quite different. A sorc that's actually a threat to you, even if chaining resto ults on cool-down you shouldn't need poisons on.

thankyourat · August 2017

OdinForge wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

@Lexxypwns is not they give me trouble. I've only lost to one sorc since the patch it's that they go full turtle mode and i can't kill them and they can't kill me. I just feel it's bad gameplay design and needs to be changed. I think a big part of it is harness magicka it's needs to be changed or as a solo player i am going to have to start back bar'ing drain magicka poisons like you said, not for 1v1 but for solo play. That honestly would end any problem i have with killing a turtling sorc. I don't think sorcs are op i just feel that shield stacking can get ridiculous at times

Well, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about something or advocate for nerfs when you haven't used the available counters.

I see this a lot, particularly from the sorc is op crowd, but there's no viable sorc build that can handle cost increase poisons if they're turtling. You either give up too much damage to sustain or too much sustain for damage if you're building to compensate for poisons so most sorcs just don't bother

You are right I try to be to noble i didn't want to use cost increase poisons because i feel it's too much of advantage over pretty much everyone you fight. I was trying to avoid using something that's broken to combat another broken mechanic, but the rise in sorc popularity and the xbox zergs are sending me to the dark side lol

A person shouldn't need cost increase poisons to combat a Sorc, but if 6 people are getting bullied that bad by a sorc why not everyone else uses them.

The thing is if a sorc builds enough stam sustain and has enough mag sustain you can't burst through them if they go full defensive especially with harness being a free cast against me as well as the resto ultimate being cheap. Im having a lot of fights against mag sorc ending in draws in duels and since i play solo engaging in a fight with a sorc open world will often times get me zerged down. It's just impossible to kill a sorc who goes into full turtle mode as a solo player. And even with two utility sets a sorc can still deal ok damage, enough to where you can't really ignore them when their group arives. I'm really not seeing away to get over the sorc shields as a solo open player open world without cost poisons. I just feel it shouldn't have to come to this, but im tired of sorcs just stacking shields waiting for their group to arrive

TheDoomsdayMonster · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

1000000% agreed; excellent, excellent, post...

Proof of what you say can be seen ingame as I see soooooo many d@mn Magicka Sorcs in game nowadays; I was in a large group earlier where two guys logged off the character they were playing to log on their Magicka Sorcs...

When you see sooooo many people using a given class in an MMO, you can bet your life savings that that particular class is OP in some significant fashion...

Mag Sorcs are OP at current...

Anyone with their eyes open can see this...

leepalmer95 · August 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

1000000% agreed; excellent, excellent, post...

Proof of what you say can be seen ingame as I see soooooo many d@mn Magicka Sorcs in game nowadays; I was in a large group earlier where two guys logged off the character they were playing to log on their Magicka Sorcs...

When you see sooooo many people using a given class in an MMO, you can bet your life savings that that particular class is OP in some significant fashion...

Mag Sorcs are OP at current...

Anyone with their eyes open can see this...

" i was in a large group earlier " lmao.

Anyway maybe those guy were bored?

TheDoomsdayMonster · August 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

1000000% agreed; excellent, excellent, post...

Proof of what you say can be seen ingame as I see soooooo many d@mn Magicka Sorcs in game nowadays; I was in a large group earlier where two guys logged off the character they were playing to log on their Magicka Sorcs...

When you see sooooo many people using a given class in an MMO, you can bet your life savings that that particular class is OP in some significant fashion...

Mag Sorcs are OP at current...

Anyone with their eyes open can see this...

" i was in a large group earlier " lmao.

Anyway maybe those guy were bored?

Yeah, a large group; I typically run solo or with a small group...

And no, they weren't bored, the group leader wanted more dps in the group, so...they both said we'll be back on our Mag Sorcs.

leepalmer95 · August 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

[Snip]

Seriously, though, magsorcs continue to be a ridiculously OP class. I kill a lot of everyone in pvp. Right now magsorcs are tankier than DKs and more lethal than NBs. Mag sorcs can fend off 6+ experienced players running good builds.

For a long time there's been a community theory that ZOS simply love sorcs, and that Eric Wroebel plays a mag sorc. Mmm...maybe. I think it's more that they don't understand what makes mag sorcs OP currently. The problem is that it's not one ability that is making them over perform. We've had that before...the golden age of wrecking blow. When it's one ability the dev team can identify it and nerf it. With sorcs, it's not a single skill. The problem is that their tool box has been gifted with so many A+ skills that you can build a simple, efficient bar that does absolutely everything for you, as opposed to other classes that have to make trade offs to get a benefit.

Here's one example. Haunting curse is a great dps skill. However, it brings two other invaluable pvp benefits to the table. One, it prevents an enemy from hiding...they're pulled out of sneak after both blasts. This enables a sorc to track an enemy, one of the hardest challenges in pvp. Secondly, it procs a second time. The value in this isn't the damage, it's that the sorc **doesn't have to target the enemy for that hit.** Being able to visually track a player and put an attack on them is a core skill in this game. Unlike other classes, sorcs get a buy-one-get-one-free EVERY time they use this skill. They don't have to land the attack...the computer does it for them.

If Curse were the only A+ skill, it'd be okay. Every class has their golden skill. But sorcs benefit from too many.

Their current meta build starts with hardened ward and harness magicka. If they can keep these up by stacking in constant rotation, each proc is negating one or two incoming hits. Thus the tankiness. Then they add power surge. This is another A+ skill because not only does it grant major damage, it returns a lot of health. So any damage that does get through the wards is being healed behind the next shield cast.

Now we add damage abilities. Curse, mages wrath, crushing shock and crystal frag...all "easy button" skills that allow a point and shoot approach to dispensing mass damage. Because they're so easy, it's pretty simple to keep the wards and buffs up in the background. Throw in boundless storm for an AOE that keeps enemies off them.

Then we have streak. Yet another A+ skill that does quadruple duty. It's useful as an escape, it closes gaps, but it also reveals hidden enemies and IT ALSO SNARES. This is a ridiculous skill. You get a curse on someone, then ten seconds later when they're revealed you can close the gap, find them again, stun them, and start dishing damage. It's not that all of this is unreasonable...it's just that every other class has to slot at least two skills to do all of this. And that's the basic problem with sorcs...when a skill does what two other skills do for other classes, the freed bar space allows for all these amazing abilities with no trade offs. Sorcs can choose from the best of everything.

In theory, this wouldn't be possible if sorcs "ran dry." But here too they've been gifted too much power. Their skills are pretty cheap...but there are also a ton of mechanisms and gear in the game that is returning magic to them constantly. Harness magic is pretty good, but OF COURSE in this area they're gifted another A+ skill...dark exchange, which converts their stamina pool into magic and health at a very good rate. Other classes use their alt resource primarily for defense. But sorcs get to convert it directly into their primary mana. Where my stamblade can convert his magic into invisibility or snares, a magsorcs converts their stamina directly into magic, meaning it becomes whatever they need that second.

The sorc front and back bars then become a very efficient engine: magic ==> shields and damage ==> returned health and magic ==> shields and damage, while any surplus stamina is converted and thrown into the formula.

Think of it like this...sorcs have become like cats. (Which is ironic, I guess, since Khajiit don't make good sorcs). Cats are evolution's super predator. They survive due to utter efficiency. Their claws are relatively simple, but they allow them to shred, to stab, to climb and to snare. Because their claws work so well, they can expend energy on other massive perks...like night vision and balance. Sorcs are not unlike cats. Each slot on their bar can be filled with choice skills that pull double and triple duty, making room for other skills pulling double or triple duty.

In this regard, it's not that sorcs need a true nerf. Their hits don't land THAT hard. What they need, I believe, is for several of their skills to reduce the number of things they accomplish. (Yes I understand that's still a nerf). Give them access to major sorcery, but don't make it a massive heal as well. Let them get magic or health from exchange, but not both. Eliminate the second cast of curse. Simplify streak. And increase the cost of some of their skills. But do any or all of these with the goal of forcing mag sorcs to choose between perks, which is something that feels like a major challenge for the other classes, but not sorcs.

[Edited to remove non-constructive intro]

1000000% agreed; excellent, excellent, post...

Proof of what you say can be seen ingame as I see soooooo many d@mn Magicka Sorcs in game nowadays; I was in a large group earlier where two guys logged off the character they were playing to log on their Magicka Sorcs...

When you see sooooo many people using a given class in an MMO, you can bet your life savings that that particular class is OP in some significant fashion...

Mag Sorcs are OP at current...

Anyone with their eyes open can see this...

" i was in a large group earlier " lmao.

Anyway maybe those guy were bored?

Yeah, a large group; I typically run solo or with a small group...

And no, they weren't bored, the group leader wanted more dps in the group, so...they both said we'll be back on our Mag Sorcs.

If they wanted the most burst dmg they would of went with mag nb's.

And by burst dmg he likely mean't destro ults.

Dps is a pve term as dps isn't useful in pve.

MisterBigglesworth · August 2017

gibous wrote: »

For anyone on PC NA emotionally traumatized by the sorcerer class, I invite you to my guild where I offer free counseling, tips, and support. I'm not a licensed professional but am willing to help because I care about the community. Posts like this pop up so often here that it's clear to me the forum is not enough of an outlet.

Teabag me in game or send me a message/mail @gibous and I'll pop you an invite.

Here's one of your actual in-game screenshots. What addon are you using?

ForsakenSin · August 2017

you know every time when i see thread about nerf Sorc and how op they are im just going wow .. i really suck in pvp

I just don't understand it , so shield up 6 sec i get cc , brake cc i get ganked by nightblade shield up again set proc shield up fear cant brake dead..

. Shield up throw curse i get cc, brake cc shield up crystal frag misses ambush dead...

.. shield up curse ok getting good got SA i get him with SA he just use vigor and heals up like nothing ambush fear proc dead..

LOL i know i don't pvp much and yhea sometimes i get kills but always reading how amazing sorc are just makes me go damm i really need to l2p and when i am in pvp im always thinking.. need to get my NB up and running .

Easy way to kill sorc cc them twice and we are dead ..i wish i was OP as sorc as evrebody states we are ..sigh..