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Tanking is totally and completely out of control.
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Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tanking out of control? How? Don't fight tanks duh.
I don't understand what people like about playing that way. Scrubbiest playstyle. If you wanna cheese out make a bomber it's way more fun making groups explode than doing nothing but holding block.
Strategically yes thats a very logical perspective, but the fundamental notion is antithetical to the concept of pvp itself.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
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NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Part of PvP is picking your battles appropriately. Anyone who feels compelled to waste their time on a zero damage tank probably also tries to chase stam sorcs and permarollers around a resource tower, follows that destro blob into a choke point, thinks they can catch a Run v X magsorc, or tries to bombblade a fully buffed and alert group.
If the tank is successfully distracting you from what you should be focusing on, you are being outplayed.5 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Part of PvP is picking your battles appropriately. Anyone who feels compelled to waste their time on a zero damage tank probably also tries to chase stam sorcs and permarollers around a resource tower, follows that destro blob into a choke point, thinks they can catch a Run v X magsorc, or tries to bombblade a fully buffed and alert group.
If the tank is successfully distracting you from what you should be focusing on, you are being outplayed.
I think you unintentionally pointed out exactly the problem. You mentioned a lot of situations where a "smart" solo player would have to turn around and ignore said situation/not participate in the fight. Theres a bazillion more of those situations that you didn't mention.
So, in summary, what situations are left that are actually desirable for a solo player to engage into?
In my opinion there aren't many in cyrodiil. To put it into made up numbers, the cyrodiil 2-3 years ago offered 50% fights that could produce desirable outcomes even for a solo player, the cyrodiil of now maybe 5-10% (please dont get stuck on the numbers, I'm just trying to point out the change within the same environment). All due to how ZOS decided to balance the game. Which is what OP is trying to point out (as far as I understand it).
Ironically, you had megatanks back then, too. But they were forced to tank by killing people (crit dynamic ultimate regen), which required another layer of skill, in comparison.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy3 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »It does make you scratch your head when 3 of you are bursting some impregnable dude and he just stands there blocking and casting the odd heal/shield.
Stop fighting him or have your group be diversified enough to handle this.
This what has killed solo play. When you need a whole group of different players to counter possible builds, you are basically playing chess with people and that has sucked all the joy out of combat.
Chess is very strategic. And no that's not an issue if they can't kill you bc on group play they sac damage for utility hopefully. If you're strategically dumb enough to attack the block tank in pvp they did thier job.
My favorite thing to do is kill a group that has a bs tank in it, saving the blazing shield for last so he can run around uselessly while his friends die.
Tanks have a big effect in certain situations and battle types though. Not everyone should be a dps machine that burns out in 15 seconds. That IS good game design imo.
Ok great you want to tank fine but tanking is no longer even remotely close to proportionally balanced to damage builds. The team organization may be strategic, but the play itself is not when you can just blockheal indefinitely. Tanking should require more use of skill and should have its weaknesses just like any other strategic focus should. Its the reason nightblades face detect pots and stam sorcs are bashable. Tanks are currently infallible if built certain ways.
This game was built around huge battles, i think that's why tanks are what they are and need to be able to get that way. It does hinder small scale some in cp campaigns but in bg and no cp i haven't encountered a tank my group couldn't kill.
Thats sort of a false assumption though its initial inception showed a comparatively more balanced dynamic between roles and it only in recent design shifted to a more tank orriented dynamic where you musy run tank or some sort of group utility build.
I think the problem is that a lot of play styles hinge on the group now because fighting tanks, especially tank groups, is so draining, and that this has destroyed most potential for non-tank solo engagement.
Not only that but the dynamic highly discourages making attempts to engage in combat - the thing I think we can agree we are generally all here to do.
I think the most accurate words I can put it in is that tanking is out of control in that it is disproportionately making grouping a must-do to derive enjoyment from pvp.
Being tanky has been too damn easy for ages now, with the way heavy armour, s&b/resto ulti and various gear sets work.
If youre not running in the middle of a 60+ swarm youre doing it wrong because "hurr durr cyrodiil has been designed for large scale".
The game gets dumbed down and the community naturally follows.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Almost perma block Tanks = no threat ...
Meanwhile people complain less about night blade proc builds ... Or a Sorc that seems like he endlessly streak across the map and damage shield himself constantly making himself crazy hard to kill ... or stacking of Destro -Ultimates ...Gap closing with destro ults.. Or stacking of healing to the point the server starts show latency... or block casters that can block for a while but still do very good damage without compromising themselves....
There are so many PVP issues in the game... I literally cant list all of them but the tanking issue is way back on my list... why ....because they dont affect anything except potatoes that want to beat on them for some reason.....
Why do we want to look at a build that can do very little to the outcome of a fight or kill anyone ... They just troll around and pick flowers .... IGNORE THEM KILL EVERY ONE AROUND THEM THEN KILL THE TANK! its not that hard to do! use fear and focus your DPS ... if you cant kill him after that let him go troll around who cares ........he cant do anything ...
Did you just say 'People complain less about sorcs'? O..o.
Anyway, on subject.... Oblivion goes straight through block and shields. Combine with infused and torugs it's roughly 3k DMG every 2 seconds. Reduced by nothing. 4 people with this just spamming light attacks will do 24k DMG in 4 seconds, which is reduced by nothing. That is not counting the damage from the light attacks themselves or any abilities used.
A LOT of people have already started using oblivion enchants in cyro. When the patch hits, I honestly think everyone will. EVERYONE.
With at least infused (if not torugs too). The only defence is to either out heal it or run away.
Also heal reduction abilities will also affect health regen in the next patch..
So as long as somebody attacking the tank is piling on the heal debuffs.... There will be no more 'tanking 10+ people indefinitely'
The problem (if you view it as a problem) is already solved.
Minalan owes me a beer.
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NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I think you unintentionally pointed out exactly the problem. You mentioned a lot of situations where a "smart" solo player would have to turn around and ignore said situation/not participate in the fight. Theres a bazillion more of those situations that you didn't mention.
So, in summary, what situations are left that are actually desirable for a solo player to engage into?
In my opinion there aren't many in cyrodiil.
Sadly true. And I've seen nothing that indicates that the devs see anything wrong with this.0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭.Almost perma block Tanks = no threat ...
Meanwhile people complain less about night blade proc builds ... Or a Sorc that seems like he endlessly streak across the map and damage shield himself constantly making himself crazy hard to kill ... or stacking of Destro -Ultimates ...Gap closing with destro ults.. Or stacking of healing to the point the server starts show latency... or block casters that can block for a while but still do very good damage without compromising themselves....
There are so many PVP issues in the game... I literally cant list all of them but the tanking issue is way back on my list... why ....because they dont affect anything except potatoes that want to beat on them for some reason.....
Why do we want to look at a build that can do very little to the outcome of a fight or kill anyone ... They just troll around and pick flowers .... IGNORE THEM KILL EVERY ONE AROUND THEM THEN KILL THE TANK! its not that hard to do! use fear and focus your DPS ... if you cant kill him after that let him go troll around who cares ........he cant do anything ...
Did you just say 'People complain less about sorcs'? O..o.
Anyway, on subject.... Oblivion goes straight through block and shields. Combine with infused and torugs it's roughly 3k DMG every 2 seconds. Reduced by nothing. 4 people with this just spamming light attacks will do 24k DMG in 4 seconds, which is reduced by nothing. That is not counting the damage from the light attacks themselves or any abilities used.
A LOT of people have already started using oblivion enchants in cyro. When the patch hits, I honestly think everyone will. EVERYONE.
With at least infused (if not torugs too). The only defence is to either out heal it or run away.
Also heal reduction abilities will also affect health regen in the next patch..
So as long as somebody attacking the tank is piling on the heal debuffs.... There will be no more 'tanking 10+ people indefinitely'
The problem (if you view it as a problem) is already solved.
Depending on the skill, Blocking can prevent Damage enchantments such as Oblivion to proc.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »It does make you scratch your head when 3 of you are bursting some impregnable dude and he just stands there blocking and casting the odd heal/shield.
Stop fighting him or have your group be diversified enough to handle this.
This what has killed solo play. When you need a whole group of different players to counter possible builds, you are basically playing chess with people and that has sucked all the joy out of combat.
Chess is very strategic. And no that's not an issue if they can't kill you bc on group play they sac damage for utility hopefully. If you're strategically dumb enough to attack the block tank in pvp they did thier job.
My favorite thing to do is kill a group that has a bs tank in it, saving the blazing shield for last so he can run around uselessly while his friends die.
Tanks have a big effect in certain situations and battle types though. Not everyone should be a dps machine that burns out in 15 seconds. That IS good game design imo.
Ok great you want to tank fine but tanking is no longer even remotely close to proportionally balanced to damage builds. The team organization may be strategic, but the play itself is not when you can just blockheal indefinitely. Tanking should require more use of skill and should have its weaknesses just like any other strategic focus should. Its the reason nightblades face detect pots and stam sorcs are bashable. Tanks are currently infallible if built certain ways.
Fear.
Knightslayer.
Oblivion Damage.
Ground Dots (including Eye of the Storm, if I'm not mistaken).
Curse.
PotL.
All go through block and WILL hurt. Want to make them run out of stam? Rapid strikes, jabs, any rapid attack move that maxes out their block cost will have them feel it.
As for what they give up? If you die to a tank, you either have no health, no healing, or both. The people you are mentioning that can block through so much damage? They literally CAN'T hurt you. You can stand there and charge your ult on them while you take the resource from under their feet. I'm not even joking. It happened, I laughed, my two buddies laughed, the tank died in a hailstorm of negates and hard CC, it was a good time.
1 -
Being a tank I can say " Tank got a huge nerf "
I miss my days when I could tank 10+ enemies for a LONG time..
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rimmidimdim✭✭✭Almost perma block Tanks = no threat ...
Meanwhile people complain less about night blade proc builds ... Or a Sorc that seems like he endlessly streak across the map and damage shield himself constantly making himself crazy hard to kill ... or stacking of Destro -Ultimates ...Gap closing with destro ults.. Or stacking of healing to the point the server starts show latency... or block casters that can block for a while but still do very good damage without compromising themselves....
There are so many PVP issues in the game... I literally cant list all of them but the tanking issue is way back on my list... why ....because they dont affect anything except potatoes that want to beat on them for some reason.....
Why do we want to look at a build that can do very little to the outcome of a fight or kill anyone ... They just troll around and pick flowers .... IGNORE THEM KILL EVERY ONE AROUND THEM THEN KILL THE TANK! its not that hard to do! use fear and focus your DPS ... if you cant kill him after that let him go troll around who cares ........he cant do anything ...
Did you just say 'People complain less about sorcs'? O..o.
Anyway, on subject.... Oblivion goes straight through block and shields. Combine with infused and torugs it's roughly 3k DMG every 2 seconds. Reduced by nothing. 4 people with this just spamming light attacks will do 24k DMG in 4 seconds, which is reduced by nothing. That is not counting the damage from the light attacks themselves or any abilities used.
A LOT of people have already started using oblivion enchants in cyro. When the patch hits, I honestly think everyone will. EVERYONE.
With at least infused (if not torugs too). The only defence is to either out heal it or run away.
Also heal reduction abilities will also affect health regen in the next patch..
So as long as somebody attacking the tank is piling on the heal debuffs.... There will be no more 'tanking 10+ people indefinitely'
The problem (if you view it as a problem) is already solved.
Wait, so by solved you mean Nerf armor and spell penetration, then make everyone use Oblivion enchants with infused and torugs. Bah, does not sound like balance or diversity.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rimmidimdim wrote: »Almost perma block Tanks = no threat ...
Meanwhile people complain less about night blade proc builds ... Or a Sorc that seems like he endlessly streak across the map and damage shield himself constantly making himself crazy hard to kill ... or stacking of Destro -Ultimates ...Gap closing with destro ults.. Or stacking of healing to the point the server starts show latency... or block casters that can block for a while but still do very good damage without compromising themselves....
There are so many PVP issues in the game... I literally cant list all of them but the tanking issue is way back on my list... why ....because they dont affect anything except potatoes that want to beat on them for some reason.....
Why do we want to look at a build that can do very little to the outcome of a fight or kill anyone ... They just troll around and pick flowers .... IGNORE THEM KILL EVERY ONE AROUND THEM THEN KILL THE TANK! its not that hard to do! use fear and focus your DPS ... if you cant kill him after that let him go troll around who cares ........he cant do anything ...
Did you just say 'People complain less about sorcs'? O..o.
Anyway, on subject.... Oblivion goes straight through block and shields. Combine with infused and torugs it's roughly 3k DMG every 2 seconds. Reduced by nothing. 4 people with this just spamming light attacks will do 24k DMG in 4 seconds, which is reduced by nothing. That is not counting the damage from the light attacks themselves or any abilities used.
A LOT of people have already started using oblivion enchants in cyro. When the patch hits, I honestly think everyone will. EVERYONE.
With at least infused (if not torugs too). The only defence is to either out heal it or run away.
Also heal reduction abilities will also affect health regen in the next patch..
So as long as somebody attacking the tank is piling on the heal debuffs.... There will be no more 'tanking 10+ people indefinitely'
The problem (if you view it as a problem) is already solved.
Wait, so by solved you mean Nerf armor and spell penetration, then make everyone use Oblivion enchants with infused and torugs. Bah, does not sound like balance or diversity.
Didn't say I liked the solution, but its there.Minalan owes me a beer.
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montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Tanks are a joke and are part of the problem with state of play in PVP. The people who play them are garbage (frankly afraid to play the game) and should be bagged the moment they go down. There is too much healing and defense built into the game that needs to go away.
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paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭montiferus wrote: »Tanks are a joke and are part of the problem with state of play in PVP. The people who play them are garbage (frankly afraid to play the game) and should be bagged the moment they go down. There is too much healing and defense built into the game that needs to go away.
You're funny2 -
montiferus✭✭✭✭✭Not funny just a truth speaker.
BTW this is with regards to PVP NOT PVE. I think in PVE tanking should be a vital part of the game and enhanced even further than its current state.
Tanking wouldn't even be that bad in PVP if it was a small subsection of the base but its getting to the point on console where the majority of players are tanks. I've seen fights rage on forever because literally nobody can kill each other. It is literally pointless gameplay. I always walk away from this nonsense but we are fast approaching a point where there will be almost nobody to fight with the exception of gankers.2 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭montiferus wrote: »Not funny just a truth speaker.
BTW this is with regards to PVP NOT PVE. I think in PVE tanking should be a vital part of the game and enhanced even further than its current state.
Tanking wouldn't even be that bad in PVP if it was a small subsection of the base but its getting to the point on console where the majority of players are tanks. I've seen fights rage on forever because literally nobody can kill each other. It is literally pointless gameplay. I always walk away from this nonsense but we are fast approaching a point where there will be almost nobody to fight with the exception of gankers.
I'm not even against tanking in pvp, but tanking is in such a place where you can completely resource out on a tank and not even scratch them or put them in a disadvantaged position.
That's just ridiculous.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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rimmidimdim✭✭✭montiferus wrote: »Not funny just a truth speaker.
BTW this is with regards to PVP NOT PVE. I think in PVE tanking should be a vital part of the game and enhanced even further than its current state.
Tanking wouldn't even be that bad in PVP if it was a small subsection of the base but its getting to the point on console where the majority of players are tanks. I've seen fights rage on forever because literally nobody can kill each other. It is literally pointless gameplay. I always walk away from this nonsense but we are fast approaching a point where there will be almost nobody to fight with the exception of gankers.
I'm not even against tanking in pvp, but tanking is in such a place where you can completely resource out on a tank and not even scratch them or put them in a disadvantaged position.
That's just ridiculous.
It's not rediculous, it's redonkulous.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Battlegrounds is designed for those who want to play small scale. It makes perfect sense to need more numbers to take castles.
While I kind of agree, I think the OP is correct with his sentiment
Tanking is beyond a joke
The other night 12 people where seiging when a team of tanks turned up they were pretty much unkillable, we managed to kill a 2 maybe 3 of them of them if they got separated from group n all 12 of us burst them down but it should not take 12 men to kill one player
That is unbalanced
Especially when all they were doing is spamming sheilds and negate
They basically make you burn your resources until a pothead hankering comes n finishes you
But did they kill you?1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I have a suggestion which can be added to battle spirit, or maybe even to the whole game though I doubt it. Probably nothing new.
The suggestion is to add ``block fatigue''. The cost of block should increase gradually if there has recently been damage taken under block, with this debuff dropping after 1 second of non-block or so. Alternatively, do the same thing with diminishing the amount of damage blocked.
Honestly, I would add such mechanics to some other abilities as well, like gap closers (some NB should really learn about other skills than spambush) or rework streak (so that triple streak gets even more expensive than double etc). Even the main spammables maybe need some of that, but that I'm undecided on.
Otherwise yes, HoTR will mean Heals on Tanks Rule (in pvp).
Or simply change the way how block costs are calculated. The lates changes hurt normal builds far more than those permablockers. IIrc, on live the % cost decrease get taken into account first and then the flat value cost decrease. Turn it around and you have your solution.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭How about you leave tanks to do their thing so that cyro doesn't become nothing but sorcs and NBs. If you build into tanking, you should be able to stay tanky because you are sacrificing damage. (Unless you are a shield spammer in which case you get both.) Also, the tanks of now are nothing compared to the malutards from before that could sit in zergs with a cup of tea.
BTW the no CP campaigns are infinitely better for this. Probably the best balance. No build is OP beyond the odd procstack, but that has been taken care of.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.3 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭How about you leave tanks to do their thing so that cyro doesn't become nothing but sorcs and NBs. If you build into tanking, you should be able to stay tanky because you are sacrificing damage. (Unless you are a shield spammer in which case you get both.) Also, the tanks of now are nothing compared to the malutards from before that could sit in zergs with a cup of tea.
BTW the no CP campaigns are infinitely better for this. Probably the best balance. No build is OP beyond the odd procstack, but that has been taken care of.
The tanks I see are not in any way sacrificing damage, at least vs nightblades/sorcs. No CP campaigns are MILDLY better, but still more or less the same problem. I have no problem with tanking, I used to prefer a mildly more tanky build. Still do in some ways at times, but there is a difference between being able to endure higher damage attacks and being able to completely absorb players damage without taking a resource hit or any kind of disadvantage.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Not our fault we don't wanna get ganked every 6 seconds
True.
One of the reasons why i´ve been advocating to get rid of that playstyle for a long time.
It pushes people towards zerging and tanky builds (if they don´t want to gank themselves) - which makes cyrodiil boring.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I think you unintentionally pointed out exactly the problem. You mentioned a lot of situations where a "smart" solo player would have to turn around and ignore said situation/not participate in the fight. Theres a bazillion more of those situations that you didn't mention.
So, in summary, what situations are left that are actually desirable for a solo player to engage into?
In my opinion there aren't many in cyrodiil.
Sadly true. And I've seen nothing that indicates that the devs see anything wrong with this.
Cyrodiil is too irrelevant when looking at total players of the game to make changes trying to get people to play it.
Also they would need someone on their team that actually understands their open world pvp system and the potential it held/holds.
That ship has sailed more than two years ago.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hopefully the changes coming up will balance some things out. The problem is ZoS has a way of changing one thing then altering another that completely negates to reason for the initial change in the first place. We get this "round robin" of FOTM Cancer builds.
I know people don't like to say but CE is a thing. There is no doubt in my mind there's a fair (not) number of folks getting a little help from their friend CE.Edited by Vizier on August 14, 2017 7:19AM0 -
Betsararie✭✭✭✭✭
✭Been saying this for a while. Especially in BGs it takes the attention away from combat and legitimate 1v1 or small scale fights.0 -
WaltherCarraway✭✭✭✭✭Not every Dragonknight permablocks. Thanks.
The real problem is shield stacking
Edited by WaltherCarraway on August 14, 2017 8:54AMBack from my last hiatus. 2021 a new start.0 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Battlegrounds is designed for those who want to play small scale. It makes perfect sense to need more numbers to take castles.
While I kind of agree, I think the OP is correct with his sentiment
Tanking is beyond a joke
The other night 12 people where seiging when a team of tanks turned up they were pretty much unkillable, we managed to kill a 2 maybe 3 of them of them if they got separated from group n all 12 of us burst them down but it should not take 12 men to kill one player
That is unbalanced
Especially when all they were doing is spamming sheilds and negate
They basically make you burn your resources until a pothead hankering comes n finishes you
But did they kill you?
I've no idea ...
The problem on ps4 is this one group of about 20 Templars that all run together
18 tanks 2 DD plus 2 nightblades ...I know the the nightblades used to kill me but I got wise to them so made sure I never let my self be too open at the rear
But it's hard to tell if it was a tank Templar or DD Templar that killed me
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Betsararie✭✭✭✭✭
✭WaltherCarraway wrote: »Not every Dragonknight permablocks. Thanks.
Not at all.
There are some very good stam DKs out there. They are not at all an issue to me.
I'm merely personally put off by players who distinctly don't make an attempt to fight, and either merely perma block or run away at the soonest opportunity.
If the point of PvP is to fight other players, then that playstyle is counterproductive to the objective of PvP.0 -
murdomac101✭✭✭most of the tanky players i come across in pvp are magicka sorcs who still deal a ridiculous amount of damage.1