Kicking healers other then templars

OC_Justice · August 2017

Got the message too lol.
I was going to mail the leader back and drop out of guild, but I want to go ahead and stay for humors sake. This guild even misspelled their name and I am confident it wasn't intentional. From what was in the guild chat he was on some sort of drunken rage. If I get back on tonight and find myself kicked I would only miss is the humor of MMO drama.

edit:
He wanted to kick warden healers too. Only Templar allowed who knew how to help tanks with stamina.

QuebraRegra · August 2017

[/quote]

A huge part of the problem is people don't know how bad they actually are. I can't speak for other servers but PS4 an I swear to god 95% of the game is carried by whatever is remaining on the top 5% that's even willing to touch a pug group. And most the elite guilds are mostly the same 200 people.

I dunno what changed, but it seems like almost everybody these days spams light attacks with a bow. The game can't take too many more updates like morrowind. At least not the pve scene.
[/quote]
LA with bows is common overland but rare even in normal dungeons, snipe and shards spamming in more common, Lots of twilight for some reason. none use sweeps except me.
[/quote]

I have video footage, in Sanctum, of people spamming bow LA, and I have video footage, because I saw it happening multiple times.

Pugs can surprise you[/quote]

can confirm, it's at least 50% of the time what I encounter with DPS pugs in normals now... LA,LA,LA,LA, etc. Not evena snipe thrown it (whoops they neve unlocked snipe

kichwas · August 2017

I ran a guild in WoW for 5 years. My attitude was always bring the player not the class - long before Blizzard made that their buzz phrase.

Booting people for having the wrong class: that is a failure in leadership.

If a player tells me: I can handle filling that raid spot you need filled... I give them a chance to prove it. If I and everyone elses likes them enough they might even get it while failing. And we can't stand them I don't take them even if they could solo the raid while the rest of us Netflix...
But for the normal situation... if they prove viable, in they go.

Class choice comes after that and I have seen it proven time and time again that a good player is good regardless of class and a bad player is bad regardless. The only notes being that a bad player that is genuinely self reflective can be trained up, and a good player that is not self reflective has peaked and will only fall...

If I take the OP as truthful.. and a guild leader was booting based on class... the only way to call that is failed leadership.

kichwas · August 2017

Above post aside... Now I can see one example where a Warden healer frustrates. Now that I have healed on one a bit, and then went to my tank... I got a healer thay baffled me.

"Stop running around and stay near me" the warden healer said. I made no reply - I was too busy taunting up adds and avoiding effects. Mentally I knew the healer should have been running around and aiming heals and chasing theough things... especially since I had already healed that exact same dungeon on my own Warden.

But also by not saying some dumb snippy comment back, I toned my kiting down a little and slowly ramped it back up: see if the player there could learn how to Warden heal by giving them space to adjust.

O_LYKOS · August 2017

My main healer is a Templar. First week of release I levelled and geared my Warden as a healer. Healed some vet dungeons and got no complaints.
It's typical bs like when someone dies and blame the healer but turns out they were standing in stupid and didn't use a shield. It's thinks like that where people are too quick to blame a healer instead of fixing their own mistakes.

Play how you enjoy playing. But for end game group content, just expect people to have certain expectations and requests. In most cases it's simply to benefit the group.

Artis · August 2017

Johngo0036 wrote: »

but for 4 man content any class can out heal the damage...

I believe your GM is salty because he was out healed by one of the other classes and is now using the resource management as an excuse... on a 4 man dungeon if you are running out of resources the problem is with your build, not your healer

Out healing damage is not the only healer's job. If that's all the healer does - it's a bad healer. Ok maybe not the worst, but definitely not good. It's like saying that any class/build can out damage mob's health in 4 man dungeons. Sure, I can just light attack them to death and the fights will last forever. Am I a DPS or good DPS after that? No. Similarly, a healer who just heals and a tank who just takes hits are not good healer or tank.

Yeah no, if you're a good DPS you don't build resources. In your example the problem is exactly the healer. If DPS will change the build to account for a bad healer, then the DPS loss will be even greater than if he runs out of resources and has to heavy attack to restore them.

Elloa wrote: »

This Min-Maxing attitude is plaguing ESO, ...

...As long as you are doing the job, doesn't matter how you do it.

.

Everyone, please, don't listen to this. Now that's the attitude that's plaguing ESO.

And then you are stuck with a DPS who light attacks with his bow wearing his mix of heavy and light armor. It does get the job done, so it doesn't matter, right? Wrong.

Then again, you play what you want. I can't force you to respect other people's time. You don't even need to try to be a good team member. But just understand the expectations and why they are there.

khai014 wrote: »

so resource recovery is also a job of healers now?

that's bs dude. i always play dps,and for that someone to complain because the healer didn't do something about someone elses sustain is plain bs.

It always has been in this game.

Vizikul wrote: »

What a worthless comment. I love when idiots attempt to argue and leave out any kind of arguments to support their assertions. Next pls!

He's right, you're wrong. Re-read the thread. It has it explained multiple times, including this very comment.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Elitism and high-end optimization for score and progression are 2 very different things though. Being Elite is not the same as being Elitist.

Arguing etymology - sure,being elite and being an elitist are different things. But in fact, being elite includes being an elitist. And that's ok - you won't show you're elite in a bad group. Usually, elite group only accept certain players, not everyone who wants to play with them. So yeah - that's elitism in nature. All requirements to performance are.

nimander99 · August 2017

Yeah, my biggest frustration with the Morrowind Chapter was the major nerf to sustainability. Now I cant fight two mob packs w/o having to swap to staff and recharge a couple times... Its frustrating.

exeeter702 · August 2017

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

The Templar passives such as Mending

Mending reinforces templars exclusive class healing options, many of which are direct analogues to the restoration staff skills, and are not used in unison with one another outside of springs and cleansing ritual. The mending passive will bolser your cleansing ritual ticks and that is really it. Outside of day one progression groups, BoL is a wasted slot. The truth you seem to refuse to accept is that non templar healers actually can make use of rapid regen in a vet trial environment to great effect.

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Sacred ground,

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Sacred ground + Cleansing Ritual + Rune focus + Master Ritualist + Radiant Aura alone covers not having to equip the Sanctuary set, Kagrenac's set, and Worm Cult set.

Rune focus is irrelevant, every class in the healing role has access to the major resist buffs. Refreshing path alone covers the buff and heals for more than cleansing ritual will to the caster and the group.

radiant aura alone is not a substitute for worm cult, and no healer is running kags or sanctuary in a trial. Although i suppose i could admit that having a fast rez timer is a nice perk. I would not call it a definitive selling point for a templar healer.

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

This allows for potent heals, easier survival, damage control, increased burst heal, and creativity in equipping sets that can better serve the group in a vet trial scene.

Sacred ground + Cleansing ritual + Mending = Thousands in healing per tick and I average 7k or more per tick....Cleansing Ritual has a nice big AOE and last way longer than healing springs. But when I combine them, I can manage DPS groups in vets trials with just that combination alone. Healing springs + Cleansing Ritual = Steady maintenance of DPS health.

There is nothing here that is exclusive to templar healing. Every healer is going to layer healing springs with other inherent healing abilities. A nb is going to have springs running while refreshing path is down, funnel health ticks are running and possibly mutagen application still running. A dk is going to have major mending up for the entirety of healing springs duration on top of cauterize and rapid regen. Warden has 3 different options to play around with in unison with springs. Mentioning "7k" hot ticks is silly as frankly speaking as far as hps is concerned math and knowledge of each class' passives and resto staff passives will reveal nearly on par potency between all 5 classes.

The only real compelling argument here is one you dont even mention which is the pros and cons of orbs vs shards in application range and accurancy.

The entirety of your argument is based around an illusion of gear flexibility that templar healers are afforded which is non existent, and the belief that templars possess more raw healing potency ie.......

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

If I ever happen to become a typical healer and equipped my Templar with the "expected" trial sets such as Sanctuary, Kagrenac or, Worm Cult, I would be able to heal another trial taking place in another instance while healing mine at the same time.

Which is objectively false.

DjMuscleboy02 · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

klowdy1 wrote: »

I keep.rrading allnthese posts saying it's up to the guild leader, and Templars ARE better healers, and if the focus is trials it's understandable. How many people can a guild hold? How many guilds have 100% of people running trials at all times, even in a trial guild? How many changes have been made to classes over the years?

This is straight up ***. If you got kicked out of that guild, feel lucky. The leader is obviously an elitist PoS, you don't want to deal with that. Give it a month or so and he will be kicking out all of the Templars, and bringing in wardens because of a balance change. There is no reason to kick people out of a guild for the spec they choose, because this crap is changing all the time. You got lucky, take the money and run, and eff that dude in the A.

Trials needs to have its elitist atmosphere. It can be *** impossible to get 3 other people to get a normal dungeon done, but veteran trials can be an unbelievable nightmare in some groups. Though between you and I, I care about people's performance more than I care about their race and class. If they happen to be mostly templars then so be it.

No, flat out no! Trials do NOT need to be elitist. Its one thing to teach people what is better and what will work or not, and what will make a terrible build. BUT its another thing entirely to be elitist. To be on your high horse and say, IT MUST BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR WE WILL NOT RUN YOU. For progression teams, yes, and as I've said, if a person is new and don't know how to make something then help them. But any class in any role can do most trials without issues. I would actually say with enough skill you can do all Trials with sub par class selection. But say you are doing a vAA, you don't have to be an elitist jerk and tell someone not to run a certain class, its not needed, if it is for your team then class selection is the least of your problems.

Player skill, raid awareness and mechanics knowledge is what makes or breaks a trial run, not class selection.

If you're going strictly for completions then yeah. Even moderate score runs you can get away with a dk or sorc healer if they know what they're doing. But when it comes down to seconds for a #1 spot, for the absolute top tier competitive guilds, you need to be completely optimized. And the whole "IT MUST BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR WE WILL NOT RUN YOU" does in fact have a place. And when you have people wanting to get to that point, there arises the issues with non-Templar healers.

Elitism and high-end optimization for score and progression are 2 very different things though. Being Elite is not the same as being Elitist.

You're not wrong. And I think I see what you're saying. However, I think we're talking about two different people.

Yes there are people who go into progression/fun runs and freak out if people die or yell at people who mess up and I agree, those people are jerks. That kind of behavior isn't acceptable. But the elitists I am referring to are the ones who will be stern with people in their core groups, be less willing to forgive simple mistakes, etc..in their core groups Outside of that, they are patient, they help those who don't have as much experience, and so on.

My point is, you cannot be Elite without being an elitist. However you can be an elitist without being a jerk.

paulsimonps · August 2017

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

klowdy1 wrote: »

I keep.rrading allnthese posts saying it's up to the guild leader, and Templars ARE better healers, and if the focus is trials it's understandable. How many people can a guild hold? How many guilds have 100% of people running trials at all times, even in a trial guild? How many changes have been made to classes over the years?

This is straight up ***. If you got kicked out of that guild, feel lucky. The leader is obviously an elitist PoS, you don't want to deal with that. Give it a month or so and he will be kicking out all of the Templars, and bringing in wardens because of a balance change. There is no reason to kick people out of a guild for the spec they choose, because this crap is changing all the time. You got lucky, take the money and run, and eff that dude in the A.

Trials needs to have its elitist atmosphere. It can be *** impossible to get 3 other people to get a normal dungeon done, but veteran trials can be an unbelievable nightmare in some groups. Though between you and I, I care about people's performance more than I care about their race and class. If they happen to be mostly templars then so be it.

No, flat out no! Trials do NOT need to be elitist. Its one thing to teach people what is better and what will work or not, and what will make a terrible build. BUT its another thing entirely to be elitist. To be on your high horse and say, IT MUST BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR WE WILL NOT RUN YOU. For progression teams, yes, and as I've said, if a person is new and don't know how to make something then help them. But any class in any role can do most trials without issues. I would actually say with enough skill you can do all Trials with sub par class selection. But say you are doing a vAA, you don't have to be an elitist jerk and tell someone not to run a certain class, its not needed, if it is for your team then class selection is the least of your problems.

Player skill, raid awareness and mechanics knowledge is what makes or breaks a trial run, not class selection.

If you're going strictly for completions then yeah. Even moderate score runs you can get away with a dk or sorc healer if they know what they're doing. But when it comes down to seconds for a #1 spot, for the absolute top tier competitive guilds, you need to be completely optimized. And the whole "IT MUST BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR WE WILL NOT RUN YOU" does in fact have a place. And when you have people wanting to get to that point, there arises the issues with non-Templar healers.

Elitism and high-end optimization for score and progression are 2 very different things though. Being Elite is not the same as being Elitist.

You're not wrong. And I think I see what you're saying. However, I think we're talking about two different people.

Yes there are people who go into progression/fun runs and freak out if people die or yell at people who mess up and I agree, those people are jerks. That kind of behavior isn't acceptable. But the elitists I am referring to are the ones who will be stern with people in their core groups, be less willing to forgive simple mistakes, etc..in their core groups Outside of that, they are patient, they help those who don't have as much experience, and so on.

My point is, you cannot be Elite without being an elitist. However you can be an elitist without being a jerk.

I think then that we are both agreeing but just saying it with different word. Cause I agree with what you are saying about core groups and such.

ComboBreaker88 · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

Literally the job of the tank to buff and debff while maintaining agro. Literally the healert job to buff and debuff while keeping the group alive. These are role requirements if you want to do real end game vet content. Anything else is subpar and is a waste of a group slot.

zaria · August 2017

Aisle9 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Jciampi wrote: »

Was running a 4 man dungeon on normal, a PUG. The healer warps in. He is a sorc. I don't give a flying poo. As long as he can keep my tank healed I'm fine with that. One of the DPS though, "he ain't no healer I ain't gonna play with no dumb sorc healer. Boot him or I don't play". This went on for the next 20 min. Him constantly asking to boot the healer, and me saying no. Everytime i decline the boot, another prompt comes up asking to kick again. Finally after 20 min he just quit on his own and we finished the boss. Like dude, I get it, for a trial you want right specs. But this is a 4 man dungeon... On normal... If you even really need a healer and you're above cp160, then we gotta talk.

Just to clarify, I DO NOT condone this type of behavior (in normal dungeons ?? )

This is disgraceful.

The hardest 4 man content in the game does not even require a healer if you're halfway competent and can keep yourself alive and away from damage.

I want to kick people all the time, but only in 2 main scenarios:

1) They're low cp and it's a vet dlc dungeon

2) They've proven they cannot fulfill the role and are severely hurting the group

Then I want to kick them right away.

Normal dungeons are so easy it will never be necessary to kick someone, unless the entire group is under level 50, or something. I'm sure lowbies have separate things they argue over altogether.

One of my guilds did a vet aa run with no healer. We did just fine lol. Any player that is bad enough to directly,harm the group gets booted. If it's multiple people I usually just leave.

But that's the point.

If it's group content one has to consider he's not playing solo, he's playing with other people. At some point, what you think it's "fun" has to be put into perspective. Actively damaging the group chances at clearing the content or get a good score, if it's a leaderboard run to get the weekly reward, should not be acceptable, nor defended.

That should, of course, be clear from the start. I can't just invite anyone because I don't have enough people, then complain about the lack of deeps.

Blanco wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Belyar wrote: »

I wanted to make a sorc healer, guess I won't

Good. They're garbage

One less sorc healer = a good thing.

Roll templar or warden for heals.

Fun fact about a sorc healer: you can make a magsorc dps and use it as a healer if you want, just morph the twilight to matriarch instead of tormentor.

Then, when you're done healing, go back to OP magsorc dps.

Unlocking resto staff abilities does not precludes using the toon for dps.
Twilight Tormentor is not needed for endgame dps.
Getting orbs does not make any difference in your dps spec.
Aggressive Horn does not precludes the acquisition of a different dps ulti, and power stone makes it easier to get it faster.

Therefore Sorc healer = Sorc dps.

Sorc dps = one of the best dps class in the game atm.

Therefore no, a sorc healer is not garbage, as it's basically a sorc dps used as healer.

Go make a mag sorc, and use it to heal if you need to, they're ok, and you can turn it into a dps at the drop of a dime.

As long as you don't need to heal vet trials, it really doesn't matter what kind of healer you play.

I already do this. It is in fact garbage. lol

You're forgetting one important detail.

Any content short of vCoS, vRoM and vTrials can be completed without a healer, so doesn't really matter if they are garbage or not... OP can play the sorc healer effectively if he wants to

BTW, not garbage in the sense that clearing content is difficult. The content in this game is not hard (which is a separate issue). I provide more than enough healing/dps with my crappy steaming pile of doodoo mag sorc healer/dps build to clear any group content outside of vet trials. After a while even vet dlc dungeons become suupper easy with an even somewhat competent group.

It's garbage in the sense that it's horribly unoptimized. I can't focus on dps 100% of the time, can't focus on healing and buffing 100% of the time. Have to keep ward up so I don't get one shotted by various attacks. Have to use far more heavy attacks then I would like because of the god awful Morrowind changes to sustain.

I devised this build on my main (mag sorc) to get faster queues and it has succeeded in that, that said I do not enjoy playing it. Even then I will often end up with 70%+ of the group dps because, well, pugs. Group finder pugs are a truly awful thing.

So, in sum works more than okay, it's just terrible IMO because it isn't that good within the grand scheme of things. My concern does not lie with completing content, but rather with playing at the highest level possible at every possible opportunity.

On that we agree.

A huge part of the problem is people don't know how bad they actually are. I can't speak for other servers but PS4 an I swear to god 95% of the game is carried by whatever is remaining on the top 5% that's even willing to touch a pug group. And most the elite guilds are mostly the same 200 people.

I dunno what changed, but it seems like almost everybody these days spams light attacks with a bow. The game can't take too many more updates like morrowind. At least not the pve scene.

LA with bows is common overland but rare even in normal dungeons, snipe and shards spamming in more common, Lots of twilight for some reason. none use sweeps except me.

I have video footage, in Sanctum, of people spamming bow LA, and I have video footage, because I saw it happening multiple times.

Pugs can surprise you

Yes we all have horror stories, mine was the tank with empty off hand, did not notice until wipe, thought he was dual wield on trash it was an normal after all. He was 40 something, has not seen it outside of starting island.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

I have to disagree. Sure, any class can heal, but can they heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials? The answer is no. A Nightblade, Sorcerer , or even a Warden healer can only compliment a Templar healer. With the exception of the Warden, the others fall short in every department when being the lead healer. I have seen some pretty solid NB healers, but they can't even pose as a personal healer for the tank in vet trials let alone heal an entire group who almost got wiped in one hit.

You can effectively in harder vet content such as trials with any class. Tell me what Sorc, DK or Nightblade lack that makes them unable to heal vet trials effectively. Nothing. It used to be the case that they can't feed stamina to the tank, now they can. They have everything in their kit to heal in vet trials.

Please, demonstrate a build that would be highly effective in veteran trials for a Sorcerer, Dragonknight, or Nightblade? I have yet to see one. Like I said, they can compliment a Templar healer, but can't stand on their own.

Exact the same gear you use on Templar.

Skills:

DK:

Front bar (Restro): Rapid Regen - Combat Prayer- Healing Springs - Healing Ward - Inner Light/Cauterize | Ult: Barrier/Magma Shell
Back bar (Destro): Molten Armanents - Mystic Orb - Elemental Drain - Igneous Shield - Harness Magicka | Ult: Aggressive Warhorn

Sorc:
Front bar (Restro): Rapid Regen - Combat Prayer - Healing Springs - Inner Light/Empowered Ward - Twilight Matriarch | Ult: Overload
Back bar (Destro): Power Surge - Blockade of Lightning - Elemental Drain - Mystic Orb - Twilight Matriarch | Ult: Aggressive Warhorn
Overload bar: Boundless Storm - Ball of Lightning - Dark Conversion - Empowered Ward - Twilight Matriarch

Nightblade:
Front bar (Restro): Rapid Regen - Combat Prayer- Healing Springs - Healing Ward - Inner Light | Ult: Soul Siphon/Barrier
Back bar (Destro): Sap Essence/Entropy - Mystic Orb - Elemental Drain - Refreshing Path/Siphoning Attacks - Harness Magicka | Ult: Aggressive Warhorn

Let's go champ.

Alright pal. I see...I'm not sure if I'm seeing doubles or....quadruples...but.... they all look alike...copy n paste....*goes blind. from generic healing builds....

You are assuming that Templar's healing abilities are a lot different? No lol.
Templar:
Front bar (Restro): Rapid Regen - Combat Prayer- Healing Springs - Breath of Life - Inner Light | Ult: Barrier/Solar Disturbance
Back bar (Destro): Channeled Focus - Luminous Shards - Extended Ritual - Harness Magicka - Radiant Aura | Ult: Aggressive Warhorn

The only difference is that Templar healers run Shards and Radiant Aura instead of Orbs and Ele Drain, then everyone runs Rapid Regen, Combat Prayer, Healing Springs, Inner Light, Barrier and Aggressive Warhorn, and then class-specific abilities.

Yes you are blind. Your attempt to troll is pathetic and you should feel bad about it.

I have 20/20 vision and I don't feel bad about being right. These copy and paste builds still haven't strengthened your case.

You said that non-Templar healers "heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials". Then it was proven that non-Templar healers are totally legit for trials, you changed the argument entirely and talked about how bad they are because they share some skills which are also used by Templar healers. What's your logic exactly, they can't heal in vet trials because they use some skills that Templar healers use? No? So what's with the "non-Templar healers can't heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials"? That's what you were talking about right, or do you have short-term memory? What's next, non-Templar healers aren't legit because they use Restro staves?

Your attempt to troll is pathetic and you should feel bad about it.

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

4) There's no such thing as "DPS classes". All classes are given all the tools needed to heal/tank/DPS. Sorcs can heal. If a player picks sorc but can't heal, if you give that guy a Templar, he will also not be able to heal as Templar. Both sorc and Templar are given the tools they need to heal.

Oh yeah, and this is completely false. It's like saying there are no tools for hammering nails because not only you can do it with a hammer, but also with a saw handle, microscope, laser, and a wrench.

Of course that's not true. There's no reason not to use a hammer for that and thus hammer is a hammering tool. Similarly, there absolutely are DPS, healer, and tank classes.

Because healing as a Sorc or a DK healer (for example) is like hammering with a microscope?

Tell me exactly what does a Sorc or a DK healer lack from his toolkit to heal effectively? I am all ears. Please answer the question directly.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Belyar wrote: »

I wanted to make a sorc healer, guess I won't

Good. They're garbage

One less sorc healer = a good thing.

Roll templar or warden for heals.

game-of-thrones-stannis-fewer.gif?w=500&h=277

Malmai · August 2017

Yez.

Artis · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Because healing as a Sorc or a DK healer (for example) compared to healing as a Templar healer is like hammering with a microscope?

Tell me exactly what does a Sorc or a DK healer lack from his toolkit to heal effectively? I am all ears.

Yes, precisely that. It gets the job done, but why would you do that?

And how come you aren't asking about tanking? Forgot, just like you forgot that shards >orbs + they have purge and nice burst heal and nova for utility if needed, not to mention that that purge is an aoe heal with huge radius that can proc SPC. That's just things that come to mind right away.

Or wait, are you saying that templars aren't better in healing and DK in tanking? Or maybe they are even worse and competitive groups in this game run what they like and not what works the best?

DocFrost72 · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Because healing as a Sorc or a DK healer (for example) compared to healing as a Templar healer is like hammering with a microscope?

Tell me exactly what does a Sorc or a DK healer lack from his toolkit to heal effectively? I am all ears.

Yes, precisely that. It gets the job done, but why would you do that?

And how come you aren't asking about tanking? Forgot, just like you forgot that shards >orbs + they have purge and nice burst heal and nova for utility if needed, not to mention that that purge is an aoe heal with huge radius that can proc SPC. That's just things that come to mind right away.

Or wait, are you saying that templars aren't better in healing and DK in tanking? Or maybe they are even worse and competitive groups in this game run what they like and not what works the best?

Orbs and shards are situational. Orbs don't require you to stop healing to throw, and pushing more than one at once can give more people the chance at resources while healing. Shards is direct, and thus useful for specific individuals like the tank. One thing you ought to know though, is one healer can be a templar, still give the one or two tanks shards, and benefit from the other classes' strengths.

All classes have a purge, and tbh a better one that doesn't involve a synergy with a cooldown (purge is life saving in HoF). It also heals and has a massive radius. Nightblades have more hots to proc SPC than templars may, DKs can shield allies to ensure overhealing to proc SPC, and wardens have a delayed aoe heal they can activate as a burst AOE heal on demand, something templars definately don't have outside their ultimate.

Nova gives major maim. One templar healer can deliver this while a nightblade healer drops veil, granting twice as powerful a defense for the party by combining the two strengths. Sorcs can nullify entire areas of spells and heal while inside it for pretty sizeable amounts, and have a utility temp don't in their root (similar to DKs). Dk healers can chain adds or problems where they need to be to let the tank focus on their resources, and wardens can use frozen gate to do the same or even get allies out of tight spots.

I won't say any one class is the best. I'll say they're better together

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Because healing as a Sorc or a DK healer (for example) compared to healing as a Templar healer is like hammering with a microscope?

Tell me exactly what does a Sorc or a DK healer lack from his toolkit to heal effectively? I am all ears.

Yes, precisely that. It gets the job done, but why would you do that?

And how come you aren't asking about tanking? Forgot, just like you forgot that shards >orbs + they have purge and nice burst heal and nova for utility if needed, not to mention that that purge is an aoe heal with huge radius that can proc SPC. That's just things that come to mind right away.

Or wait, are you saying that templars aren't better in healing and DK in tanking? Or maybe they are even worse and competitive groups in this game run what they like and not what works the best?

Every class can Purge, not just Templar. Every class has a burst heal (Healing Ward, Pet), not just Templar. Every class has Barrier, which is an equivalence to Nova.

So, you can't point out why a Sorc or a DK can't heal effectively. That means non-Templar healers have all the tools needed to heal effectively. You can use a microscope to hammer a nail, but it's not an effective way to do. Healing with non-Templar healers is an effective way to heal. It's the difference. Yes, Templar healers are slightly better at that, by a small margin, so healing with a Templar is like hammering a nail with a German hammer, while healing with a non-Templar healer is like hammering a nail with a French hammer. Yes, competitive groups will go for a German hammer instead of a French hammer anytime, but if you are French and or you don't like German stuffs for some reasons, who can blame you if you pick up some French hammer? You can use a French hammer to do your job effectively, it's just slightly worse than a German one.

Same goes for DPS. Though i am not sure with all the changes which class is the best one at DPSing right now, meta hasn't been stable yet because we are going to have an update soon and people are still testing, but words on the street is that the difference between classes is small, so we probably have a German hammer, a French hammer, a Swedish hammer, a Japanese hammer, all can get their job done effectively.

Non-DK tanks need buffs, they are like Chinese hammers right now.

Artis · August 2017

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Because healing as a Sorc or a DK healer (for example) compared to healing as a Templar healer is like hammering with a microscope?

Tell me exactly what does a Sorc or a DK healer lack from his toolkit to heal effectively? I am all ears.

Yes, precisely that. It gets the job done, but why would you do that?

And how come you aren't asking about tanking? Forgot, just like you forgot that shards >orbs + they have purge and nice burst heal and nova for utility if needed, not to mention that that purge is an aoe heal with huge radius that can proc SPC. That's just things that come to mind right away.

Or wait, are you saying that templars aren't better in healing and DK in tanking? Or maybe they are even worse and competitive groups in this game run what they like and not what works the best?

Orbs and shards are situational. Orbs don't require you to stop healing to throw, and pushing more than one at once can give more people the chance at resources while healing. Shards is direct, and thus useful for specific individuals like the tank. One thing you ought to know though, is one healer can be a templar, still give the one or two tanks shards, and benefit from the other classes' strengths.

All classes have a purge, and tbh a better one that doesn't involve a synergy with a cooldown (purge is life saving in HoF). It also heals and has a massive radius. Nightblades have more hots to proc SPC than templars may, DKs can shield allies to ensure overhealing to proc SPC, and wardens have a delayed aoe heal they can activate as a burst AOE heal on demand, something templars definately don't have outside their ultimate.

Nova gives major maim. One templar healer can deliver this while a nightblade healer drops veil, granting twice as powerful a defense for the party by combining the two strengths. Sorcs can nullify entire areas of spells and heal while inside it for pretty sizeable amounts, and have a utility temp don't in their root (similar to DKs). Dk healers can chain adds or problems where they need to be to let the tank focus on their resources, and wardens can use frozen gate to do the same or even get allies out of tight spots.

I won't say any one class is the best. I'll say they're better together

yawn, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Orbs and shards are situational yes, no reason not to have both. NBs and DKs don't have burst heals, so not sure why bring them up at all. Veil has a small radius and is kinda useless. Moreover - it requires everyone to stack there. Not sure it will work vhof or even vhrc... What areas of spells can sorcs nullify in trials? In which fights? Where is it important and better than having an extra warhorn? I mean, all this theoretical blahblah is good and all to convince people, especially new, that class doesn't matter, but it just doesn't seem to be related to reality and what groups have to deal with in practice.

And you are ignoring the main question. Why are best group running templar (and now warden sometimes) healers? Why not NBs and DKs if they are better? Did they suddenly stop running what works better and started running what they like instead?

No, sorry, but that's just not true. There are classes that are the best in certain roles, it's just what it is.

And again you can play whatever you want and keep waiting for that situation where DK healer will be better ... in practice. But so far there's just no reason to bring another class over a templar(+warden maybe if you need 2 healers). Like, where exactly would it be needed? In which trials/dungeons?

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

And you are ignoring the main question. Why are best group running templar (and now warden sometimes) healers?

My two cents:

If you are rich and you want the best driving experience in the world, will you pick up a German car or a French car? You will go for the German car every time.

But if you are French, or you just don't like German stuffs for some reasons, can I blame you if you pick up a French car?

Artis · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Every class can Purge, not just Templar. Every class has a burst heal (Healing Ward, Pet), not just Templar. Every class has Barrier, which is an equivalence to Nova.

What? Are you trolling? In what fight is it an equivalence to Nova when Nova reduces all damage done to every and barrier simply gives a damage shield to 6 players, not even a full raid? + nova is still dealing some damage and provides 1 more synergy for Alkosh.

Healing ward is delayed, pet can die and requires to be slotted on all bars. They are much much worse and less reliable than templar's burst heal.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

So, you can't point out why a Sorc or a DK can't heal effectively.

Yes I can and I did.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

That means non-Templar healers have all the tools needed to heal effectively.

No it doesn't. Even if I didn't point out, which I did, it would only mean that I can't point it out. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Moreover, you are the one making an affirmative claim so you need to prove other classes are as effective, which you tried, but didn't. The arguments are shown to be wrong the first paragraph.

But the best part? It is shown in practice by top groups that templar is better period. Otherwise, other classes would be represented roughly as much.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

You can use a microscope to hammer a nail, but it's not an effective way to do. Healing with non-Templar healers is an effective way to heal. It's the difference. Yes, Templar healers are slightly better at that, by a small margin, so healing with a Templar is like hammering a nail with a German hammer, while healing with a non-Templar healer is like hammering a nail with a French hammer. Yes, competitive groups will go for a German hammer instead of a French hammer anytime, but if you are French and or you don't like German stuffs for some reasons, who can blame you if you pick up some French hammer? You can use a French hammer to do your job effectively, it's just slightly worse than a German one.

The second best doesn't matter. If you choose between the two options, choosing between German and French hammer is the same as choosing between German hammer and a microscope. There is NO REASON to use the one that's less effective if you can choose the one that's more effective.

So wait, templars are better? Then why arguing? Slightly? Small margin? Then where are those 2nd tier groups that have slightly smaller scores in trials? No, the margin isn't small when you take into account how classes work with each other. Not that the value of that margin was important anyway. The fact that it's there and it's not negligible is enough.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Same goes for DPS. Though i am not sure with all the changes which class is the best one at DPSing right now, meta hasn't been stable yet because we are going to have an update soon, but words is the street is that the difference between classes is small, so we probably have a German hammer, a French hammer, a Swedish hammer, a Japanese hammer, all can get their job done effectively.

Non-DK tanks need buffs, they are like Chinese hammers right now.

Indeed, same with DPS. No reason not to bring the best. But yes, that meta is not quite formed yet.

Artis · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

And you are ignoring the main question. Why are best group running templar (and now warden sometimes) healers?

My two cents:

If you are rich and you want the best driving experience in the world, will you pick up a German car or a French car? You will go for the German car every time.

But if you are French, or you just don't like German stuffs for some reasons, can I blame you if you pick up a French car?

No, you can't. You also can't say that the cars are equally good when they objectively aren't. It's like that butthurt guy who can't afford a better car and is saying on every corner how he didn't even want a better car and how his car is good enough and even better if he drives reverse on ice on the Moon. I mean, I guess? But those conditions aren't realistic and in practice that other car is better everywhere where it matters.

But that guy has an excuse, he doesn't want to think about himself that he's a loser. Played don't have that excuse. It's a game! You can afford any character and play any character. If you don't want to or want to play something suboptimal? Sure, go for it. I just don't understand why you're arguing and distorting reality.

I play a suboptimal race. I don't go to threads saying that it's just as good as best races. I just like it so I play it. Not trying to prove or convince anyone that it's normal to play that race. I mean, they are right when they say it's not optimal and that it matters. Not sure why some people can't accept that regarding races or classes.

Going back to your question - your approach is just not the best here. No one is blaming anyone for not having a better car. We're just saying that one is better and correct you when you say all cars are equal and there are no sports cars and family cars. All cars are give seats and wheels needed to drive on the track and to drive a family around or go camping/drive off-road. Off-roaders can race. If you give someone an off-roader and he can't drive, he will also not be able to race on a nascar. Both off-roaders and nascar are given the parts they need to be driven.

4) There's no such thing as "DPS classes". All classes are given all the tools needed to heal/tank/DPS. Sorcs can heal. If a player picks sorc but can't heal, if you give that guy a Templar, he will also not be able to heal as Templar. Both sorc and Templar are given the tools they need to heal.

Or if you like German, French, etc. cars than you can see, again, they don't have the same technical characteristics. No matter how you spin it...

And I'll repeat - I'm not "blaming" anyone or saying that healers should only play one class. All I'm saying is that some classes are better inherently or just by current numbers than others in certain roles.

Alchemical · August 2017

Things that matter about healing:

> Did anyone die?
>> No
>>> You are a good healer

That's it. Literally nothing else matters. If someone can perform their job, their class, build, etc does not matter.

'buh its not optimal!!1!'
Did you die? No? Then it's not a problem. The healer's job is keeping you alive.
If you did die then your healer needs to reevaluate the way they are playing.

It's that simple. Period. Case closed.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Every class can Purge, not just Templar. Every class has a burst heal (Healing Ward, Pet), not just Templar. Every class has Barrier, which is an equivalence to Nova.

What? Are you trolling? In what fight is it an equivalence to Nova when Nova reduces all damage done to every and barrier simply gives a damage shield to 6 players, not even a full raid? + nova is still dealing some damage and provides 1 more synergy for Alkosh.

Healing ward is delayed, pet can die and requires to be slotted on all bars. They are much much worse and less reliable than templar's burst heal.

Barrier moves with you and makes you immortal while Nova stays where it is and only reduces 30% of the damage done so apparently Barrier has its edge compared to Nova, what to use entirely depends on your own group's strategy, example first boss AA instead of dropping Nova along the way, you can pop Barrier, or first boss HRC both Nova and Barrier are good options, many groups utilize Barrier there, it was also suggested by Alcast as a good strategy. Oh and Barrier provides a 10% magicka regen bonus.

It doesn't matter if Healing ward is delayed, once you pop it that low health guy is saved, and there's no "cone" so you can save the guy behind you. Pet isn't going to die if you Command Pet + Right click, first rule in "How to train your Twilight 101", try it.

You agree with me about Purge? Good.

Artis wrote: »

Yes I can and I did.

No you didn't.

Artis wrote: »

No it doesn't. Even if I didn't point out, which I did, it would only mean that I can't point it out. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Moreover, you are the one making an affirmative claim so you need to prove other classes are as effective, which you tried, but didn't. The arguments are shown to be wrong the first paragraph.

Sure. Non-Templar healers now can feed resources to the group with the change to orb, Templar doesn't have access to Major Mending anymore, it's now an open playfield.
They have access to HoTs, burst heal, combat prayer, healing springs, ele drain (minor magickasteal), orbs etc.. all the tools needed to heal the group effectively while providing buffs, debuffs and extra resources to the group.
So yeah non-Templar healers can heal effectively in all kinds of content.

Artis wrote: »

But the best part? It is shown in practice by top groups that templar is better period. Otherwise, other classes would be represented roughly as much.

Yes, healing with Templar is like hammering a nail with a German hammer, and healing with non-Templar healers is like hammering with a French hammer, if I want to compete in my village's hammering contest, I would probably pick up a German hammer. Of course in a contest you will see mostly German hammers. But if someone wants to use a French hammer, please, by my guess.

Artis wrote: »

The second best doesn't matter. If you choose between the two options, choosing between German and French hammer is the same as choosing between German hammer and a microscope. There is NO REASON to use the one that's less effective if you can choose the one that's more effective.

"Choosing between German and French hammer is the same as choosing between German hammer and a microscope." lol this is going to be in my signature (EDIT: forget it, French people will probably burn me alive). Did you realize that you just pissed off 66.9 millions people (aka the entire French population)? Yes there are many reasons why you would go for a French hammer instead of a German hammer.
1) You are French.
2) You don't like German stuffs for some reasons. (Gods know why but you don't like them, probably just a personal preference).
3) You look at the price, the German hammer is significantly more expensive, and you don't want to spend that much for something that is only slightly better.
Translating to ESO:
1) You are a DK main, you love that class so much.
2) Templar bores you to death, you hate that class with a passion.
3) You want to be a healer, but you don't have a lot of time playing so you can't really level up an alt, also you hate Skyreach grinding so much you would rather uninstall the game than spending time in it. You have a vet Sorc already, so, sorc healer here we go.

Artis wrote: »

So wait, templars are better? Then why arguing? Slightly? Small margin? Then where are those 2nd tier groups that have slightly smaller scores in trials? No, the margin isn't small when you take into account how classes work with each other. Not that the value of that margin was important anyway. The fact that it's there and it's not negligible is enough.

paulsimonps ran with non-Templar healers and he was impressed by them, are you implying that paulsimonps isn't a top tier raider?
I have always said that Templar is the best class in healing, I argued a lot with people who say it isn't. But i am a reasonable person, I understand that being the best doesn't mean other classes aren't viable, and it is a matter of fact that other classes are viable in healing even in vet trials. As for why go for why go for the 2nd best, if people ask me what class should they go for if they want to heal, I always suggest people to go for the best, as in, go for Templar healers. But if a person wants to be a DK healer for example, then I am not going to stop them because I know for a fact that DK healers are viable to do everything even vet trials.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

And you are ignoring the main question. Why are best group running templar (and now warden sometimes) healers?

My two cents:

If you are rich and you want the best driving experience in the world, will you pick up a German car or a French car? You will go for the German car every time.

But if you are French, or you just don't like German stuffs for some reasons, can I blame you if you pick up a French car?

No, you can't. You also can't say that the cars are equally good when they objectively aren't. It's like that butthurt guy who can't afford a better car and is saying on every corner how he didn't even want a better car and how his car is good enough and even better if he drives reverse on ice on the Moon. I mean, I guess? But those conditions aren't realistic and in practice that other car is better everywhere where it matters.

But that guy has an excuse, he doesn't want to think about himself that he's a loser. Played don't have that excuse. It's a game! You can afford any character and play any character. If you don't want to or want to play something suboptimal? Sure, go for it. I just don't understand why you're arguing and distorting reality.

I play a suboptimal race. I don't go to threads saying that it's just as good as best races. I just like it so I play it. Not trying to prove or convince anyone that it's normal to play that race. I mean, they are right when they say it's not optimal and that it matters. Not sure why some people can't accept that regarding races or classes.

Going back to your question - your approach is just not the best here. No one is blaming anyone for not having a better car. We're just saying that one is better and correct you when you say all cars are equal and there are no sports cars and family cars. All cars are give seats and wheels needed to drive on the track and to drive a family around or go camping/drive off-road. Off-roaders can race. If you give someone an off-roader and he can't drive, he will also not be able to race on a nascar. Both off-roaders and nascar are given the parts they need to be driven.
4) There's no such thing as "DPS classes". All classes are given all the tools needed to heal/tank/DPS. Sorcs can heal. If a player picks sorc but can't heal, if you give that guy a Templar, he will also not be able to heal as Templar. Both sorc and Templar are given the tools they need to heal.
Or if you like German, French, etc. cars than you can see, again, they don't have the same technical characteristics. No matter how you spin it...

And I'll repeat - I'm not "blaming" anyone or saying that healers should only play one class. All I'm saying is that some classes are better inherently or just by current numbers than others in certain roles.

Please point out where I said that non-Templar healers are better than Templar healers.

I even argued with people who said so to prove that Templar healers are the best.

My point is that French cars work perfectly so if someone wants to go for one of them, I am not going to stop them. If someone asks me "Which car should I buy", I will always say "Buy the German car", but people who say "French cars are *** don't buy them" *** me off, because it is objectively wrong. French cars are good enough, they are just slightly worse than German cars. AND THEY ARE ALL CARS. LIKE, DRAGONKNIGHT HEALERS ARE GOD DAMN HEALERS, GET IT? It's the point. Dragonknight healers are healers, performing slightly worse than Templar healers doesn't make them a microscope or a freaking apple, they are still healers, they are good enough to do all kinds of content effectively. Like French cars are cars, not the best cars but they are cars, good ones, get it?

DjMuscleboy02 · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Every class can Purge, not just Templar. Every class has a burst heal (Healing Ward, Pet), not just Templar. Every class has Barrier, which is an equivalence to Nova.

What? Are you trolling? In what fight is it an equivalence to Nova when Nova reduces all damage done to every and barrier simply gives a damage shield to 6 players, not even a full raid? + nova is still dealing some damage and provides 1 more synergy for Alkosh.

Healing ward is delayed, pet can die and requires to be slotted on all bars. They are much much worse and less reliable than templar's burst heal.

Barrier moves with you and Nova stays where it is so apparently Barrier has its edge compared to Nova, what to use entirely depends on your own group's strategy, example first boss AA instead of dropping Nova along the way, you can pop Barrier, or first boss HRC both Nova and Barrier are good options, many groups utilize Barrier there, it was also suggested by Alcast as a good strategy.

It doesn't matter if Healing ward is delayed, once you pop it that low health guy is saved, and there's no "cone" so you can save the guy behind you. Pet isn't going to die if you Command Pet + Right click, first rule in "How to train your Twilight 101", try it.

You agree with me about Purge? Good.

Artis wrote: »

No it doesn't. Even if I didn't point out, which I did, it would only mean that I can't point it out. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Moreover, you are the one making an affirmative claim so you need to prove other classes are as effective, which you tried, but didn't. The arguments are shown to be wrong the first paragraph.

Sure. Non-Templar healers now can feed resources to the group with the change to orb, Templar doesn't have access to Major Mending anymore, it's now an open playfield.
They have access to HoTs, burst heal, combat prayer, healing springs, ele drain (minor magickasteal), orbs etc.. all the tools needed to heal the group effectively while providing buffs, debuffs and extra resources to the group.
So yeah non-Templar healers can heal effectively in all kinds of content.

1) Barrier lasts all of like 2 seconds in a situation you'd drop it. Nova also lasts what, 8 seconds or something? And it provides a 30% damage mitigation to any enemy standing in it, so it doesn't matter if you move or not. I don't remember hearing anything from Alcast about barrier, but I'd imagine he says that because Nova does not affect the lightning on first boss. So dropping one would do nothing, however barrier would give people an extra 2-3 seconds to find the safe spot.

2) Major Mending was nice, but is not needed. Templar passives and support abilities make them superior, not their past access to MM. Wardens are nice, but provide nothing that can't be obtained elsewhere.

Alchemical wrote: »

Things that matter about healing:

> Did anyone die?
>> No
>>> You are a good healer

That's it. Literally nothing else matters. If someone can perform their job, their class, build, etc does not matter.

'buh its not optimal!!1!'
Did you die? No? Then it's not a problem. The healer's job is keeping you alive.
If you did die then your healer needs to reevaluate the way they are playing.

It's that simple. Period. Case closed.

You are just entirely wrong. The longer a boss takes to die the more room for mistakes. You can heal and support the group. It is NOT one or the other. Your job is to do both. Healing and support are not mutually exclusive.

Flameheart · August 2017

khai014 wrote: »

so resource recovery is also a job of healers now?

It always was, because it's the most efficient method in an ideal group.

The game gave healers nice tools for this, because only healers have the slot space on their bars for Eledrain, bubbles and shards. A DD on the other side uses potions mostly on cooldown in addition to other synergies for the Undaunted passive effect. DDs use heavy attacks to refill ressources somewhat, but just doing heavy attacks results in a remarkable dps loss.

The other way round, DDs support the healer by avoiding inc damage by movement, blocking and shielding and killing a boss as fast as possible to avoid potentially deadly mechanics.

Btw it's not the DDs alone who need support, good tanks need it too even if built for support and sustain. You know people actually love it that a tank pulls all trash close together so everything is hit by AoE and can be killed fast (and a healer can heal all by just doing springs), but taunts, chains and claws or caltrops cost ressources and there is a healer doing nothing but just healing ?

You know...do ut des.

As PUGs come along often with "not ideal groups" (sugarcoated) and especially with DDs who aren't worth the DD icon in the group tool, you might slot some damage. But in a group with 2 DDs capable of doing 30k+ dps with the right support it would be a waste to not slot for support (Eledrain, shards, warhorn).

Actually I sometimes watch healers in PUGs rearranging skills after the first few trash groups to adapt to the group. Those healers are good ones.

If you want to use a good dps skill as a healer then use lightning wall.The added dps isn't bad especially for AoE and - much better - it delivers the out of balance effect for 8% more dps and nice whipprocs for magDKs.

You know...that's called "synergy".

paulsimonps · August 2017

@Artis

Yes, Templar healers are better in Trials, and Wardens #2. Does that mean that people that like the play style of a Dragonknight, Sorcerer or Nightblade healer should never ever play them? Should they get a free pass to heal end game progression groups even though they are sub par? No probably not, but its up to the individual Raid leader. But can they or should they get to heal non competitive Vet Trials and Vet Dungeons? Absolutely.

We can spend all day listing the different pros and cons of the five different classes. But the bottom line is, can they keep a group alive while still helping with other support abilities? The answer is yes, they can. So lets stop looking down on non Templar healers like if they were some second rate citizen to shame and shun.

They have a right to play the classes they want in whatever role they want cause they have the ability and effectiveness enough to do it. Now the word effective has been thrown out a lot in the thread, but we got to remember that its all based on what you are comparing it too. Are they effective compared to a Templar? Perhaps not. But are they effective enough to do the content? Yes, they are. And that is all we need to know. Let people play how they want, and if you are leading a Trial group or preforming a group dungeon team that is not using Group Finder then you can be as picky as you want, beyond that you can't do much else.

People will play sub par classes, roles and races all the time, cause its fun for them. If you want them to be better then you can help them be better at their sub par choices and make them as best as possible given what they have. Hating on them for their choices and demanding that they change does not help anyone, not that I am saying that you have done so cause quite frankly I am to lazy to go over the thread to see if you did, just making a point.

So lets all agree that for end game progression or #1 leaderboard chasing groups they are sub par but for everything else they are good enough for the job and we can all help each other grow as players instead and have much more fun doing so.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Every class can Purge, not just Templar. Every class has a burst heal (Healing Ward, Pet), not just Templar. Every class has Barrier, which is an equivalence to Nova.

What? Are you trolling? In what fight is it an equivalence to Nova when Nova reduces all damage done to every and barrier simply gives a damage shield to 6 players, not even a full raid? + nova is still dealing some damage and provides 1 more synergy for Alkosh.

Healing ward is delayed, pet can die and requires to be slotted on all bars. They are much much worse and less reliable than templar's burst heal.

Barrier moves with you and Nova stays where it is so apparently Barrier has its edge compared to Nova, what to use entirely depends on your own group's strategy, example first boss AA instead of dropping Nova along the way, you can pop Barrier, or first boss HRC both Nova and Barrier are good options, many groups utilize Barrier there, it was also suggested by Alcast as a good strategy.

It doesn't matter if Healing ward is delayed, once you pop it that low health guy is saved, and there's no "cone" so you can save the guy behind you. Pet isn't going to die if you Command Pet + Right click, first rule in "How to train your Twilight 101", try it.

You agree with me about Purge? Good.

Artis wrote: »

No it doesn't. Even if I didn't point out, which I did, it would only mean that I can't point it out. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Moreover, you are the one making an affirmative claim so you need to prove other classes are as effective, which you tried, but didn't. The arguments are shown to be wrong the first paragraph.

Sure. Non-Templar healers now can feed resources to the group with the change to orb, Templar doesn't have access to Major Mending anymore, it's now an open playfield.
They have access to HoTs, burst heal, combat prayer, healing springs, ele drain (minor magickasteal), orbs etc.. all the tools needed to heal the group effectively while providing buffs, debuffs and extra resources to the group.
So yeah non-Templar healers can heal effectively in all kinds of content.

1) Barrier lasts all of like 2 seconds in a situation you'd drop it. Nova also lasts what, 8 seconds or something? And it provides a 30% damage mitigation to any enemy standing in it, so it doesn't matter if you move or not. I don't remember hearing anything from Alcast about barrier, but I'd imagine he says that because Nova does not affect the lightning on first boss. So dropping one would do nothing, however barrier would give people an extra 2-3 seconds to find the safe spot.

2) Major Mending was nice, but is not needed. Templar passives and support abilities make them superior, not their past access to MM. Wardens are nice, but provide nothing that can't be obtained elsewhere.

1) Nova reduces the damage done by 30%, as in you still take 70% of the damage during 8 seconds, and Barrier is "you become immortal until 20k shield runs out or after 30 seconds", or "you have 40k health now". What to use entirely depends on each group's own strategy.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-hel-ra-citadel/
Not just Barrier, Alcast even acknowledged that Nightblade's Veil of Blade can be used.

2) "Superior", as in, "i am only slightly better than you but "superior" makes me feel nicer about myself" or "i am miles better than you"? I understand if someone wants to feel better about themselves, but that's not the reality, Templar's passive and support abilities only make them slightly better.

Vizier · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Fundamentally It's not the healers job to provide resources other than health. Incidentally a Templar can provide other resources other than health...shrug.

Anyone that would kick people from their guild over such a thing isn't worth following. Simple as that... More to say about such people but why? Why even bother?

All classes can provide resources that is not health.

Considering the size of this thread I should have quoted who I was responding to. Their argument seeming to support kicking all but Templar healers...because they give other resources. To be clear, I don't support such elitist bull. My point merely being it's not a healer's job to provide resources other than health.

You make a great point here though which lends to the notion that ultimately it's everyone's responsibility for managing their own resources and helping out how they can with what they have.