Can we finally get a buff to the Imperial and other non-meta Races?

Twohothardware · August 2017

Look at all the guides online that come out each day. The recuring theme is always suggesting Redguard or Orc for Stamina and Dark Elf or High Elf for Magicka. Argonian has seen a slight up tick as of late due to sustain nerfs but for the most part several of the races are only chosen if you don't have access to them all through Any Race, Any Alliance.

Imperial and Nord especially are both lacking for Stamina. Neither have anything that helps with Stamina sustain and the Imperials Red Diamond passive that is suppose to have a 10% chance of returning 6% health is so useless it's barely worth wasting the skill points.

Especially with the upcoming nerfs to Health Recovery several of these Stamina classes that have Health Recovery bonuses need at least minor buffs to keep them competitive against the Redguard meta.

Ishammael · August 2017

Yes red diamond needs an update. Not too much since 12% HP and 10% stam is pretty solid.

Would love to see red diamond converted into +% mana to make imperial the "all around race", but that's just me.

Tannus15 · August 2017

There will always be 1 or 2 strictly better races and guides will always recommend them.
Even if everything was perfectly "balanced".

ifDoubtNerfIt · August 2017

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Tannus15 · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Aliyavana · August 2017

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

ifDoubtNerfIt · August 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

SodanTok · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2017

I just want Red Diamond reworked.....

ifDoubtNerfIt · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

Oh please tell me how, if we take in consideration that you have 50k stam, is 1.5k stamina return every 5s 2nd BiS (that is if you have 100% uptime of the passive)?

Tannus15 · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. The value is right, it's just calculated last so in "real" values it's more like 4% instead of 6%.
If the damage was reduced first then mitigated then it would be great, but because it's done the other way around the more armour you wear the less benefit you get from this passive.

SodanTok · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

Oh please tell me how, if we take in consideration that you have 50k stam, is 1.5k stamina return every 5s 2nd BiS (that is if you have 100% uptime of the passive)?

Well, now it will be hard to persuade you because it is FAR FAR less now. Since it does not scale with resources. But it is still resources. Resources matter big time in PVP. Much more than health regen, much more than sneak damage, much... ish more than 8% crit chance (this one is the only even close, but obv rest of khajiit skills kill it in favor of redguard), much more than 10% chance to restore some health (that is probably decreased in half by battle spirit, not sure about that) and the way damage reduction on nord works it is even more than that.

I think its around 600 stam/sec with 100% uptime now. That is more than you ever get from the whole bosmer regen passive.

There is no question, orc > redguard > everyone else if you go melee nonganker.

The only questions is how did you not consider pre nerf redguard passive the 2nd best. Like that is huge amount of stamina.

ifDoubtNerfIt · August 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. The value is right, it's just calculated last so in "real" values it's more like 4% instead of 6%.
If the damage was reduced first then mitigated then it would be great, but because it's done the other way around the more armour you wear the less benefit you get from this passive.

Actually you're wrong. The equation is:

DefensePhysicalMitigation = (((PhysicalResist)*(1 - Target.PenetrationFactor) - 
Target.PenetrationFlat)*(-1/(EffectiveLevel * 1000)) + 1)*(1 + Target.AttackBonus)*
(1 + PhysicalDamageTaken)

The 6% from the passive you get is additive with "PhysicalDamageTaken" and then it gets multiplicated with everything else and as everything is multiplicated, it doesn't matter if it's on the first place or last.

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

Oh please tell me how, if we take in consideration that you have 50k stam, is 1.5k stamina return every 5s 2nd BiS (that is if you have 100% uptime of the passive)?

Well, now it will be hard to persuade you because it is FAR FAR less now. Since it does not scale with resources. But it is still resources. Resources matter big time in PVP. Much more than health regen, much more than sneak damage, much... ish more than 8% crit chance (this one is the only even close, but obv rest of khajiit skills kill it in favor of redguard), much more than 10% chance to restore some health (that is probably decreased in half by battle spirit, not sure about that) and the way damage reduction on nord works it is even more than that.

I think its around 600 stam/sec with 100% uptime now. That is more than you ever get from the whole bosmer regen passive.

There is no question, orc > redguard > everyone else if you go melee nonganker.

The only questions is how did you not consider pre nerf redguard passive the 2nd best. Like that is huge amount of stamina.

As far as I know 1500 stamina divided by 5s is 300 stam/sec. You can easily get 300 stam/sec from recovery and invest in a better race than this. And about the scaling ? what scaling ? It scales with your max Stamina, it's Max Stamina multiplicated by 0.03, so i.e. 50k * 0.03 = 1.5k

Tannus15 · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »
Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. The value is right, it's just calculated last so in "real" values it's more like 4% instead of 6%.
If the damage was reduced first then mitigated then it would be great, but because it's done the other way around the more armour you wear the less benefit you get from this passive.

Actually you're wrong. The equation is:
DefensePhysicalMitigation = (((PhysicalResist)*(1 - Target.PenetrationFactor) - 
Target.PenetrationFlat)*(-1/(EffectiveLevel * 1000)) + 1)*(1 + Target.AttackBonus)*
(1 + PhysicalDamageTaken)
The 6% from the passive you get is additive with "PhysicalDamageTaken" and then it gets multiplicated with everything else and as everything is multiplicated, it doesn't matter if it's on the first place or last.

Cool, my bad.

Thanks for the info

SodanTok · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

Oh please tell me how, if we take in consideration that you have 50k stam, is 1.5k stamina return every 5s 2nd BiS (that is if you have 100% uptime of the passive)?

Well, now it will be hard to persuade you because it is FAR FAR less now. Since it does not scale with resources. But it is still resources. Resources matter big time in PVP. Much more than health regen, much more than sneak damage, much... ish more than 8% crit chance (this one is the only even close, but obv rest of khajiit skills kill it in favor of redguard), much more than 10% chance to restore some health (that is probably decreased in half by battle spirit, not sure about that) and the way damage reduction on nord works it is even more than that.

I think its around 600 stam/sec with 100% uptime now. That is more than you ever get from the whole bosmer regen passive.

There is no question, orc > redguard > everyone else if you go melee nonganker.

The only questions is how did you not consider pre nerf redguard passive the 2nd best. Like that is huge amount of stamina.

As far as I know 1500 stamina divided by 5s is 300 stam/sec. You can easily get 300 stam/sec from recovery and invest in a better race than this. And about the scaling ? what scaling ? It's flat value like from 1T update IIRC. The passive is not multiplicative/additive with any other passive/skill in the game.

What better race tho. What races are better than redguard that arent orc. You can get healing easily from... healing skills. You can get crit easily... from crit sources. You can get damage reduction easily from damage reduction from somewhere too... You can get everything easily. That makes it weak argument.

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

Oh please tell me how, if we take in consideration that you have 50k stam, is 1.5k stamina return every 5s 2nd BiS (that is if you have 100% uptime of the passive)?

Well, now it will be hard to persuade you because it is FAR FAR less now. Since it does not scale with resources. But it is still resources. Resources matter big time in PVP. Much more than health regen, much more than sneak damage, much... ish more than 8% crit chance (this one is the only even close, but obv rest of khajiit skills kill it in favor of redguard), much more than 10% chance to restore some health (that is probably decreased in half by battle spirit, not sure about that) and the way damage reduction on nord works it is even more than that.

I think its around 600 stam/sec with 100% uptime now. That is more than you ever get from the whole bosmer regen passive.

There is no question, orc > redguard > everyone else if you go melee nonganker.

The only questions is how did you not consider pre nerf redguard passive the 2nd best. Like that is huge amount of stamina.

With 40k stam its 480 stam regen. To get that much as a woodelf you need 2285 stamina regen before the passive, so total 2765 to get the same value as a 40k stam redguard.

Imperial passove is cut in half. I think it can crit though. Not 100%. I forget.

Imperials makes really good melee nonganker too with the bonus health. Means you can focus on other things or use duel regen since health isnt an issue.

Redguard passive is also procd on your melee atts. So as long as you att per 5 seconds uour good.

Ladislao · August 2017

Tannus15 wrote: »

There will always be 1 or 2 strictly better races and guides will always recommend them.
Even if everything was perfectly "balanced".

This.
In fact, racial passive abilities are too insignificant and it is very difficult to balance them perfectly. Choosing a race is primarily preferences, not a passive abilities.

Jitterbug · August 2017

Ladislao wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

There will always be 1 or 2 strictly better races and guides will always recommend them.
Even if everything was perfectly "balanced".

This.
In fact, racial passive abilities are too insignificant and it is very difficult to balance them perfectly. Choosing a race is primarily preferences, not a passive abilities.

GeQngFO_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

ifDoubtNerfIt · August 2017

Ladislao wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

There will always be 1 or 2 strictly better races and guides will always recommend them.
Even if everything was perfectly "balanced".

This.
In fact, racial passive abilities are too insignificant and it is very difficult to balance them perfectly. Choosing a race is primarily preferences, not a passive abilities.

Good luck comparing your Magicka Khajiit DD to a Magicka high elf DD

DPShiro · August 2017

Fix/rework Red Diamond passive.
Maybe give it 10% max mag as well

Twohothardware · August 2017

DPShiro wrote: »

Fix/rework Red Diamond passive.
Maybe give it 10% max mag as well

They should give Imperial a bonus to One Hand and Shield like a bonus percent to damage you can block. Even if they reduced Imperial's Health or Stamina bonus to keep it balanced it would make an overall more competitive race, especially for PvP. PvP is all about sustaining resources more than it is max resources, especially after they nerfed a bunch of skills on classes like Dragonknight to no longer scale off Max resources.

Heroeric1337 · August 2017

Just give redguards the 'adrinalin rush' ability and make it an active one, and ill be set.

Taleof2Cities · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

^Exactly this.^

Ocelot9x · August 2017

People who says redguard passive suck clearly have no clue about PvP. Redguards have hands down the best sustain passive in the game. And yeah,as a former imperial main the last passive is useless.

Aztlan · August 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I just want Red Diamond reworked.....

Yes please.

Brrrofski · August 2017

Yeh, you're crazy if you think max stam, Stam regen and adrenaline rush are useless in PvP. Redguard and Orc are best by far for Stam in PvP (except NB where wood elf is best).

Imperial is good for Pve tanking. Argonian is better due to it's potion passives, but for max resources nothing touches imperial.

Twohothardware · August 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

^Exactly this.^

Outside of PvE tanking where any Stam race will work, Imperial isn't even the best option for PvP tanking either because it lacks the bonus to healing received and health recovery of other races. Argonian is probably the best PvP tanking class right now.

Max Health and Stamina bonuses do very little in PvP because sustain is where everyone struggles. Imperial needs Red Diamond changed to a passive that helps with greater sustain such as in blocking since that would favor a tankier race.

Yakidafi · August 2017

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »
Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. The value is right, it's just calculated last so in "real" values it's more like 4% instead of 6%.
If the damage was reduced first then mitigated then it would be great, but because it's done the other way around the more armour you wear the less benefit you get from this passive.

Actually you're wrong. The equation is:
DefensePhysicalMitigation = (((PhysicalResist)*(1 - Target.PenetrationFactor) - 
Target.PenetrationFlat)*(-1/(EffectiveLevel * 1000)) + 1)*(1 + Target.AttackBonus)*
(1 + PhysicalDamageTaken)
The 6% from the passive you get is additive with "PhysicalDamageTaken" and then it gets multiplicated with everything else and as everything is multiplicated, it doesn't matter if it's on the first place or last.

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

Oh please tell me how, if we take in consideration that you have 50k stam, is 1.5k stamina return every 5s 2nd BiS (that is if you have 100% uptime of the passive)?

Well, now it will be hard to persuade you because it is FAR FAR less now. Since it does not scale with resources. But it is still resources. Resources matter big time in PVP. Much more than health regen, much more than sneak damage, much... ish more than 8% crit chance (this one is the only even close, but obv rest of khajiit skills kill it in favor of redguard), much more than 10% chance to restore some health (that is probably decreased in half by battle spirit, not sure about that) and the way damage reduction on nord works it is even more than that.

I think its around 600 stam/sec with 100% uptime now. That is more than you ever get from the whole bosmer regen passive.

There is no question, orc > redguard > everyone else if you go melee nonganker.

The only questions is how did you not consider pre nerf redguard passive the 2nd best. Like that is huge amount of stamina.

As far as I know 1500 stamina divided by 5s is 300 stam/sec. You can easily get 300 stam/sec from recovery and invest in a better race than this. And about the scaling ? what scaling ? It scales with your max Stamina, it's Max Stamina multiplicated by 0.03, so i.e. 50k * 0.03 = 1.5k

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »

Last time I checked, there are passives called Conditioning and Tough for my Imperial that gives her 10% increased Max Stamina and 12% increased Max Health respectively. Nords also benefit from Stalwart and Resist Frost which increase Max Stamina by 6% and Max Health by 9% respectively. Both races are still BiS for tanks, while Imperial is slightly better with the Stamina passive compared to Nord, while Nord gets damage reduction. All in all, in my opinion, the only race that needs a change is Khajiit to give them 8% max Crit, instead of 12% weapon crit.

You cannot simply look through the eyes of a DD, you have to take the Tanking and Healing side into the equation too.

Nord still needs some love. The order of damage reductions in the calculations means it's doing less than you'd think.

Well, kinda yes, but still you don't want them to be OP compared to other tanking races. So an increase of 2-3% in damage mitigation would be acceptable.

aliyavana wrote: »

No one mentions bosmer... they have a passive that is really only useful for pvp ganking. In any dps guide you will always be recommended khajiit and redguard but bosmer not really

But you can also argue that Khajiit in PvP is a no-go also as Bosmer in PvE. Also the last passive of Redguards is useless in PvP. So the same applies to them. But, imo, you cannot have it all, that's why there are racial passives in the first place. That's why Imperial is better than for example a High Elf for Tanking.

Redguard passive useless in PVP? Lol. The only better passive than that for stam in PVP is the orc one with melee damage and speed...

Oh please tell me how, if we take in consideration that you have 50k stam, is 1.5k stamina return every 5s 2nd BiS (that is if you have 100% uptime of the passive)?

Well, now it will be hard to persuade you because it is FAR FAR less now. Since it does not scale with resources. But it is still resources. Resources matter big time in PVP. Much more than health regen, much more than sneak damage, much... ish more than 8% crit chance (this one is the only even close, but obv rest of khajiit skills kill it in favor of redguard), much more than 10% chance to restore some health (that is probably decreased in half by battle spirit, not sure about that) and the way damage reduction on nord works it is even more than that.

I think its around 600 stam/sec with 100% uptime now. That is more than you ever get from the whole bosmer regen passive.

There is no question, orc > redguard > everyone else if you go melee nonganker.

The only questions is how did you not consider pre nerf redguard passive the 2nd best. Like that is huge amount of stamina.

With 40k stam its 480 stam regen. To get that much as a woodelf you need 2285 stamina regen before the passive, so total 2765 to get the same value as a 40k stam redguard.

Imperial passove is cut in half. I think it can crit though. Not 100%. I forget.

Imperials makes really good melee nonganker too with the bonus health. Means you can focus on other things or use duel regen since health isnt an issue.

Redguard passive is also procd on your melee atts. So as long as you att per 5 seconds uour good.

No redguard final race passive was nerfed(or buffed if you put no points in to stamina as a Stamina player) so it is now always a flat value of 875 every 5sec for melee attacks which is still good.
On topic I don't agree with useless races, Altough I have yet to create a nord(see no use atm like my imp tank, but I might underestimate the dmg mitigation), breton(I like Altmer dmg magicka better than cost reduction and defence) and last orc (which I came really close to creating but chose redguard for sustain). Imp is really not underperforming IMO.

crobarXIII · August 2017

My tanks would like red diamond changed to "when receiving dmg X% chance to heal for X% of health". Might be OP on a high health tank but I still want it lol.

SirCritical · August 2017

Twohothardware wrote: »

Especially with the upcoming nerfs to Health Recovery several of these Stamina classes that have Health Recovery bonuses need at least minor buffs to keep them competitive against the Redguard meta.

If it would be possible, I'd give an insightful, agree and awesome also.

FakeFox · August 2017

You seem to only take damage dealers into consideration. Imperial and Nord are two of the strongest races for tanks, especially in this high health meta. Argonians have also been one of the best choices for healers and tanks for a long time.

I think every race has it's uses, the only one I think is a bit too weak is Bosmer, since pretty much no build stacks enough staminaregen for it not have a real impact and the other passives are rather weak as well.