Kicking healers other then templars

Inarre · August 2017

That sounds more like a cult than a guild lol

"i dont like your (culture/beliefs/race/gender/orientation) therefore you dont belong here " - says every great leader ever

kargen27 · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

Good healers can keep the group alive while supporting the group with resources and buffs/debuffs. Ofcourse when everyone is taking a lot of damage, the healer should focus on healing, but when everyone is alive and well, the healers should support the group instead of standing still or overhealing. This is exactly what makes a good healer: the ability to determine when to focus on healing and when he can spare time to provide resources, buffs and debuffs.

Bad healers will claim that they are always busy and can't spare time to buff/debuff while in fact they are actually overhealing the group. Good healers will find a nice balance and can keep the group alive while throwing in as much support as they can.

Exactly what I am saying. There is a time for healers to help with sustain and there is a time the others better be prepared to do a bit of sustain on their own. Some in this thread are acting as if DPS can't be bothered with anything other than standing in one spot swinging a big stick. We kind of got off track though. A good healer is going to be a good healer no matter the class played with some obvious exceptions.

Back to the OP it still sounds to me like the leader and friends didn't bother with adapting to the changes made and are looking for someone to blame. When one guild I am in saw the changes we started hitting the practice dummies and began working heavy attacks and other fun things into the rotations. A couple of the crazy ones even went in with a metronome or something similar and one would go through his rotation while the other would say late/early on each skill. They did that for hours but then again...crazy. They are good though.

central_scrutinizer · August 2017

In any of my progression guilds in this and any other mmo, I would never ever kick people because they didn't conform to the meta. Worst case scenario, I'd help them level and gear other characters to cope with a character-crippling change in dynamics/mechanics/roster logistics ect.
If you're serious about making real end-game headway, a guild leader should be recruiting players, not specific characters imo.
You can teach/gear for specific circumstances and if one character is rendered obsolete, it can be replaced by an alt until the game mechanics change again, and that player still has that old character in the stable ready to be fine tuned for current content.

Weeding out players based upon whoever has toons that rigidly fit the current meta is a good way to end up with a guild full of reward zone farmers who don't have the attitude or aptitude to put in the work to progress when new stuff comes out.

snakester320 · August 2017

I'll prob get hate for this but it been my argument about eso from the start the lack of individual classes set for specific purpose sure it great to use a stamplar and other hybrids but there are so many failed groups because classes such as a tank healer and dps are not in forced ... how many times have I seen a mage try to heal and a nightblade try to tank .. sure it may be good for made groups and the elitist who are very good but the general population who ( be honest keep theses mmos ticking over ) are not hardcore players .. have no idea and cause these fails...imo the system is broken and it feels like a lazy arse attempt on ZOS part to just make 4-5 classes but lets you stick a sword and shield on or a healing staff and call your self a healer or a tank..

kargen27 · August 2017

snakester320 wrote: »

I'll prob get hate for this but it been my argument about eso from the start the lack of individual classes set for specific purpose sure it great to use a stamplar and other hybrids but there are so many failed groups because classes such as a tank healer and dps are not in forced ... how many times have I seen a mage try to heal and a nightblade try to tank .. sure it may be good for made groups and the elitist who are very good but the general population who ( be honest keep theses mmos ticking over ) are not hardcore players .. have no idea and cause these fails...imo the system is broken and it feels like a lazy arse attempt on ZOS part to just make 4-5 classes but lets you stick a sword and shield on or a healing staff and call your self a healer or a tank..

No hate but I have to disagree. I have a character (became my crafter) that is so pathetic he has to work to pop a pack of skeevers. Okay not quite that bad but there are a lot of things that will kill him real easy. The thing is sometimes it is a blast to take him out into the world and just have him swing a big hammer at things. I would never subject another player to having to group with him but sometimes he is fun to play. I don't think that should be taken away from the game.

lucky_Sage · August 2017

if Templars didn't have shards it wouldn't matter all classes can produce the same amount of heals Templars are just boring and easy no skill really

Brrrofski · August 2017

snakester320 wrote: »

I'll prob get hate for this but it been my argument about eso from the start the lack of individual classes set for specific purpose sure it great to use a stamplar and other hybrids but there are so many failed groups because classes such as a tank healer and dps are not in forced ... how many times have I seen a mage try to heal and a nightblade try to tank .. sure it may be good for made groups and the elitist who are very good but the general population who ( be honest keep theses mmos ticking over ) are not hardcore players .. have no idea and cause these fails...imo the system is broken and it feels like a lazy arse attempt on ZOS part to just make 4-5 classes but lets you stick a sword and shield on or a healing staff and call your self a healer or a tank..

Chances are, they'd suck if using a templar healer or do tank. Honestly, any class can do any role. Healing especially. Any class can keep a group alive in dungeons with absolute ease.

paulsimonps · August 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

Because you don't pay enough attention?

I don't understand the rest of your argument, sorry.

To be honest, I haven't heard of him either although I don't seek out the theorycrafting crowd.

Paul may be a heckuva guy, but sadly not many "Paul's" in the group finder crowd that make best use of of a non-Templar healer.

Again though that doesn't make the class bad, just the people, and this is regardless of whether or not the good or the bad are the majority of those users. And to be honest, most really good people don't use the group finder to begin with, they go with friends or guild members. But that does not make the class bad. The reason we are even discussing this is that the OP had a guild master that outright kicked anyone that even just had a character that was not the right combination of Role+Class, even though it did not matter. If he wanted to be picky he could have been so at times when he was forming for Trials, it makes no sense not to allow guild members to have non meta characters, its extreme, too extreme. So again, don't kick people based on Class+Role combo, if you need to kick its cause someone is an A hole in the group or if the person is really really really inept and doesn't learn from people trying to teach.

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

editing because I wanted to respond to this from another post but didn't want to make a separate post.

"so if a healer takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, the group doesn't lose any DPS, but if a DD takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, assuming that the DD has 30k DPS, that's a loss of 30k damage every 10 seconds."

So no DoTs? If you do pay attention to DPS you know your statement is false.

Its not that bad but its obviously a DPS drop from having to use a skill that deals no damage when someone else can get the buff to you. But please, stop thinking of this as the healer throwing out nothing but buffs, they don't really use that many.

Combat Prayer gives them Minor Beserk while at the same time giving defensive buffs such as Minor Resolve and Ward, as well that its a strong burst heal. No downside for a healer to use a burst heal now is there.

Something like Elemental Drain or Radiant Aura that gives Minor magickasteal is great not just for the DPS but for the Tank and Healer too, helps to keep your magicka up when you heavy attack an enemy, or apply a DoT to them. Some healers do this for multiple reasons, the DoT I mean, one of them being to sustain themselves easier with said DoT and Minor Magickasteal.

Warhorn is another thing heales do, and that tanks do as well. We call it the warhorn rotation where the healers and tanks spread out the ultimate usage to keep as best of an uptime as possible of this ultimate. It not only gives everyone more health to survive but also more magicka and stamina for more sustain and damage, and of course even more damage with the Major Force buff.

Now the only other straight up buff/debuff that healers might do, but not all, is the use of Elemental Blockade on their back bar with a lightning staff with charged trait and a shock enchantment, not only will this proc the magickasteal for the healer but it will help significantly in increasing the up time of Minor Vulnerability on the enemies as well as causing them to go off-balance which again increases damage dealt with current meta.

These four things plus shards/orbs can be done with very little effort.

Combat Prayer is a Burst heal, nothing lost in using it.
Magicka steal helps EVERYONE in better sustain, nothing lost
Warhorn makes heals stronger and make people survive longer.
Wall of Elements can, if time allows for it help a lot, this one is the one with the absolute least priority and should not be used during situations of high damage taking.

And orbs can be morphed to heal the allies, making it a strong HoT and the shards can he morphed to give resources back to the caster, and Shards should only be used really when you need specific people to get it, aka tank, and the orbs for the rest cause its easier to shoot out and, again, IT HEALS, so nothing lost in casting it.

Throw down your HoTs and stop over healing and something like this won't be that hard to do, there really shouldn't be a need to even argue about stuff like this.

And one important bit to remember, in Dungeons, that is the big majority of group content where you are only 4 people, this is all still true. Cause there is even less need to over heal as things really don't do all that much damage. No reason to spam Breath of Life or Healing Springs on allies with 100% health. In most scenarios only the tank gets hit, and a good tank can self sustain quite a bit too.

You all make it seem like the healer is meant to throw all the buffs out, when in reality its only 1 buff skills 1 buff ultimate and 1 potential damage/debuff skill. And 1-3 sustain skills depending on the situation. And considering that stacking HPS is super easy you really should be able to do this with minimal effort. But I am repeating myself.....

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

Because you don't pay enough attention?

I don't understand the rest of your argument, sorry.

To be honest, I haven't heard of him either although I don't seek out the theorycrafting crowd.

Paul may be a heckuva guy, but sadly not many "Paul's" in the group finder crowd that make best use of of a non-Templar healer.

You lost that argument to him, do i really have to remind you about that?

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

I find templar healing just to be more idiot friendly, but sorcerer to actually be far better at it. (at least in dungeons)
Haven't tried it on other classes yet

Details! Please! Specifically how a sorc healer is better. Curious, not angry in case I get attacked.

Yeah. Since June 2015, pugging with Sorc Healers, 1 was actually spec'd and geared for healing. I would say adequate.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Warden or Sorc healers. They do the job, but I'd rather have a good Templar.

I would rather have steak instead of hamburgers.

Hamburger to steak is a terrible and innacurate analogy. It suggests one is of higher objective quality to the other wich is false

As someone who Tanks Vet pugs, I stand by this statement an analogy.

Just because forum warriors can make a Sorc healer doesn't mean your average Joe Pug does it and well.

Templar healers, even the dumbest ones still slot BOL. The typical dumb Sorc healer usually uses mutagen and goes to his damage bar.

You can not use player competence to justify your views on whether or not a Class is good at healing or not. Anyone could be a potential idiot that slots the wrong things, even a templar healer could be stupid enough to not slot breath of life(side note, BoL is not the best heal in the game no matter what you might thing). But obviously if we talk only about competent people and those that understand how the game works then any class can heal, sure they all have different strengths and playstyles and some gives more to provide for the current meta than others but they can all fill the role very well. Just cause bad players play a class poorly doesn't mean they won't be just as bad on another, or vise versa, and it proves nothing about the class.

paulsimonps · August 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

snakester320 wrote: »

I'll prob get hate for this but it been my argument about eso from the start the lack of individual classes set for specific purpose sure it great to use a stamplar and other hybrids but there are so many failed groups because classes such as a tank healer and dps are not in forced ... how many times have I seen a mage try to heal and a nightblade try to tank .. sure it may be good for made groups and the elitist who are very good but the general population who ( be honest keep theses mmos ticking over ) are not hardcore players .. have no idea and cause these fails...imo the system is broken and it feels like a lazy arse attempt on ZOS part to just make 4-5 classes but lets you stick a sword and shield on or a healing staff and call your self a healer or a tank..

Chances are, they'd suck if using a templar healer or do tank. Honestly, any class can do any role. Healing especially. Any class can keep a group alive in dungeons with absolute ease.

Yes a person that doesn't understand the game will not magically be better and understand it with a different class. Only way for them to get better is to learn and understand the game and what makes something work and why it works that way. Some people don't care about the why but some do and its easier to learn when you know the whys and not just the hows.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Evey class can do any role but some class are better than others in specific roles, I have been in this game from 2+ years and played with every class and role:

DK as Main Tank
Sorcerer as DPS
Templar as Healers
Nighblade as DPS (best in single target dps and top in pvp aka Ganker recenty got ganked in IC and lost around 40k TV

Warden as Healer and Tank

Not according to most in this thread.

I suggest they tank some Pug Vets.

I honestly change my build around for them. Oh great....A Sorcerer healer. Better put on Engine Guardian and Vigor. (Not only will I get weak heals, but also nothing in resource management).

Sorcerer is not meant to heal, healing twilight may good for small group or solo contents but sorcerer is meant for DPS.

I never care about dungeons, anything works there!

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

snakester320 wrote: »

I'll prob get hate for this but it been my argument about eso from the start the lack of individual classes set for specific purpose sure it great to use a stamplar and other hybrids but there are so many failed groups because classes such as a tank healer and dps are not in forced ... how many times have I seen a mage try to heal and a nightblade try to tank .. sure it may be good for made groups and the elitist who are very good but the general population who ( be honest keep theses mmos ticking over ) are not hardcore players .. have no idea and cause these fails...imo the system is broken and it feels like a lazy arse attempt on ZOS part to just make 4-5 classes but lets you stick a sword and shield on or a healing staff and call your self a healer or a tank..

Sorcs can heal and Nightblades can tank. People who can't heal with sorc certainly won't be able to heal with Templar and people who can't tank with Nightblade certainly can't tank with DK. They are just bad players.

It's not "a lazy arse attempt", it's the main selling point of this game: people can fill in any role as any class, as long as they are built for it. It's a trait coming from the TES franchise, it's the thing that makes this game unique instead of a generic WoW clone.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

exeeter702 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Templars are, objectively, the best healers. There is no use arguing that at all.

Open up the leader boards for any trial. Count how many non-templar healers are on there.

Templar is unquestionably the best healer in the game. Warden comes in at a close second (hence why some teams run a warden healer now too).

You can definitely complete vet trials with sorc/DK/NB healer, but you won't be getting on the leader boards.

Darlgon · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Templars are, objectively, the best healers. There is no use arguing that at all.

Open up the leader boards for any trial. Count how many non-templar healers are on there.

Templar is unquestionably the best healer in the game. Warden comes in at a close second (hence why some teams run a warden healer now too).

You can definitely complete vet trials with sorc/DK/NB healer, but you won't be getting on the leader boards.

Interesting thing about those leader boards. You can sort by all, or by class. Doesnt tell you their role. Major assumption there.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

Good healers can keep the group alive while supporting the group with resources and buffs/debuffs. Ofcourse when everyone is taking a lot of damage, the healer should focus on healing, but when everyone is alive and well, the healers should support the group instead of standing still or overhealing. This is exactly what makes a good healer: the ability to determine when to focus on healing and when he can spare time to provide resources, buffs and debuffs.

Bad healers will claim that they are always busy and can't spare time to buff/debuff while in fact they are actually overhealing the group. Good healers will find a nice balance and can keep the group alive while throwing in as much support as they can.

Exactly what I am saying. There is a time for healers to help with sustain and there is a time the others better be prepared to do a bit of sustain on their own. Some in this thread are acting as if DPS can't be bothered with anything other than standing in one spot swinging a big stick. We kind of got off track though. A good healer is going to be a good healer no matter the class played with some obvious exceptions.

Back to the OP it still sounds to me like the leader and friends didn't bother with adapting to the changes made and are looking for someone to blame. When one guild I am in saw the changes we started hitting the practice dummies and began working heavy attacks and other fun things into the rotations. A couple of the crazy ones even went in with a metronome or something similar and one would go through his rotation while the other would say late/early on each skill. They did that for hours but then again...crazy. They are good though.

If we talk about throwing shards or orbs, they are mostly meant for the tank, and in vet trials the tanks NEED them to survive.

As for vet dungeons, if you throw shards and orbs, it will increase the total group DPS, so the entire group will complete the dungeon much faster, which benefits everyone, the healer included. So, good healers will throw as many shards and orbs as tehy can, and bad healers will make excuses like "i am busy take care of yourselves stupid DDs" while standing there and overhealing everything.

IcyDeadPeople · August 2017

mystfit wrote: »

So, one of the guilds I was in...at least until yesterday...asked (told) all healers other then templars to get out of the guild. He followed up the chat rant with an email rant saying the same thing. He's the guild leader, he's well within his rights to run the guild as he sees fit. His issue seemed to be with providing stam to the group. Something I gather he felt made other healers useless. I am curious as to how many agree with his stance? <edited> To clarify, I'm curious about the stance of a healer needs to be a resource manager as well. It is my pleasure to assist the group however I can with whatever tools I may have (in this case a sorc). Also, as I had never grouped with the GL, this wasn't a personal attack at me nor did I take it as one.

I've healed most of the vet dungeons as DK healer, and I know some have done veteran trials

Templar is better than DK of course, but you can still provide stam/magicka by orbs. In PVP I think Warden as good a healer as Templar or perhaps even a little better.

kargen27 · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

Because you don't pay enough attention?

I don't understand the rest of your argument, sorry.

To be honest, I haven't heard of him either although I don't seek out the theorycrafting crowd.

Paul may be a heckuva guy, but sadly not many "Paul's" in the group finder crowd that make best use of of a non-Templar healer.

Again though that doesn't make the class bad, just the people, and this is regardless of whether or not the good or the bad are the majority of those users. And to be honest, most really good people don't use the group finder to begin with, they go with friends or guild members. But that does not make the class bad. The reason we are even discussing this is that the OP had a guild master that outright kicked anyone that even just had a character that was not the right combination of Role+Class, even though it did not matter. If he wanted to be picky he could have been so at times when he was forming for Trials, it makes no sense not to allow guild members to have non meta characters, its extreme, too extreme. So again, don't kick people based on Class+Role combo, if you need to kick its cause someone is an A hole in the group or if the person is really really really inept and doesn't learn from people trying to teach.

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

editing because I wanted to respond to this from another post but didn't want to make a separate post.

"so if a healer takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, the group doesn't lose any DPS, but if a DD takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, assuming that the DD has 30k DPS, that's a loss of 30k damage every 10 seconds."

So no DoTs? If you do pay attention to DPS you know your statement is false.

Its not that bad but its obviously a DPS drop from having to use a skill that deals no damage when someone else can get the buff to you. But please, stop thinking of this as the healer throwing out nothing but buffs, they don't really use that many.

Combat Prayer gives them Minor Beserk while at the same time giving defensive buffs such as Minor Resolve and Ward, as well that its a strong burst heal. No downside for a healer to use a burst heal now is there.

Something like Elemental Drain or Radiant Aura that gives Minor magickasteal is great not just for the DPS but for the Tank and Healer too, helps to keep your magicka up when you heavy attack an enemy, or apply a DoT to them. Some healers do this for multiple reasons, the DoT I mean, one of them being to sustain themselves easier with said DoT and Minor Magickasteal.

Warhorn is another thing heales do, and that tanks do as well. We call it the warhorn rotation where the healers and tanks spread out the ultimate usage to keep as best of an uptime as possible of this ultimate. It not only gives everyone more health to survive but also more magicka and stamina for more sustain and damage, and of course even more damage with the Major Force buff.

Now the only other straight up buff/debuff that healers might do, but not all, is the use of Elemental Blockade on their back bar with a lightning staff with charged trait and a shock enchantment, not only will this proc the magickasteal for the healer but it will help significantly in increasing the up time of Minor Vulnerability on the enemies as well as causing them to go off-balance which again increases damage dealt with current meta.

These four things plus shards/orbs can be done with very little effort.

Combat Prayer is a Burst heal, nothing lost in using it.
Magicka steal helps EVERYONE in better sustain, nothing lost
Warhorn makes heals stronger and make people survive longer.
Wall of Elements can, if time allows for it help a lot, this one is the one with the absolute least priority and should not be used during situations of high damage taking.

And orbs can be morphed to heal the allies, making it a strong HoT and the shards can he morphed to give resources back to the caster, and Shards should only be used really when you need specific people to get it, aka tank, and the orbs for the rest cause its easier to shoot out and, again, IT HEALS, so nothing lost in casting it.

Throw down your HoTs and stop over healing and something like this won't be that hard to do, there really shouldn't be a need to even argue about stuff like this.

And one important bit to remember, in Dungeons, that is the big majority of group content where you are only 4 people, this is all still true. Cause there is even less need to over heal as things really don't do all that much damage. No reason to spam Breath of Life or Healing Springs on allies with 100% health. In most scenarios only the tank gets hit, and a good tank can self sustain quite a bit too.

You all make it seem like the healer is meant to throw all the buffs out, when in reality its only 1 buff skills 1 buff ultimate and 1 potential damage/debuff skill. And 1-3 sustain skills depending on the situation. And considering that stacking HPS is super easy you really should be able to do this with minimal effort. But I am repeating myself.....

You are missing my point. I am not saying the healer shouldn't be buffing. I am saying the entire group needs to contribute. The people I am arguing with act as if the DPS need to do nothing but DPS. If they really are running trials to get on the leader board then they would know each member has their own thing to do, buffing is usually coordinated and often includes a DPS or two. Before going in you often hear the group leader ask do we have two ??? slotted and followed by player A you go first call player B you go 2nd call. Of course groups that run together a lot know that but usually group leader goes though it anyway. Shards, ele drain and balls are usually a part of my rotation unless I'm asked to slot something else. There are times though when the normal rotation goes out the window and I am saying when that happens the rest of the group needs to have something to they can use to self sustain until the healer gets back to normal rotation again. One person actually said a healer has to provide sustain because DPS stands for damage meaning that is all they should do. Using that line of thinking what should a healer do? I don't agree that DPS is damage only any more than I believe healing is healing only and that is what I have been saying. And yeah when doing the pledges as a healer I can not only sustain and boost but can actually get some DPS in on most fights. I think that is to be expected. Thing is though when I need to concentrate on healing the others are going to need to also adjust and at the very least throw in a heavy attack every other rotation or so if it isn't already a part of the rotation. And a tank that can self heal...that is gravy.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

mystfit wrote: »

So, one of the guilds I was in...at least until yesterday...asked (told) all healers other then templars to get out of the guild. He followed up the chat rant with an email rant saying the same thing. He's the guild leader, he's well within his rights to run the guild as he sees fit. His issue seemed to be with providing stam to the group. Something I gather he felt made other healers useless. I am curious as to how many agree with his stance? <edited> To clarify, I'm curious about the stance of a healer needs to be a resource manager as well. It is my pleasure to assist the group however I can with whatever tools I may have (in this case a sorc). Also, as I had never grouped with the GL, this wasn't a personal attack at me nor did I take it as one.

I've healed most of the vet dungeons as DK healer, and I know some have done veteran trials

Templar is better than DK of course, but you can still provide stam/magicka by orbs. In PVP I think Warden as good a healer as Templar or perhaps even a little better.

In PvP Sorc is the best healer, there I said it.

Encase then Negate, it's freaking brutal.

AbysmalGhul · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

I have to disagree. Sure, any class can heal, but can they heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials? The answer is no. A Nightblade, Sorcerer , or even a Warden healer can only compliment a Templar healer. With the exception of the Warden, the others fall short in every department when being the lead healer. I have seen some pretty solid NB healers, but they can't even pose as a personal healer for the tank in vet trials let alone heal an entire group who almost got wiped in one hit.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

I have to disagree. Sure, any class can heal, but can they heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials? The answer is no. A Nightblade, Sorcerer , or even a Warden healer can only compliment a Templar healer. With the exception of the Warden, the others fall short in every department when being the lead healer. I have seen some pretty solid NB healers, but they can't even pose as a personal healer for the tank in vet trials let alone heal an entire group who almost got wiped in one hit.

You can effectively in harder vet content such as trials with any class. Tell me what Sorc, DK or Nightblade lack that makes them unable to heal vet trials effectively. Nothing. It used to be the case that they can't feed stamina to the tank, now they can. They have everything in their kit to heal in vet trials.

paulsimonps · August 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

Because you don't pay enough attention?

I don't understand the rest of your argument, sorry.

To be honest, I haven't heard of him either although I don't seek out the theorycrafting crowd.

Paul may be a heckuva guy, but sadly not many "Paul's" in the group finder crowd that make best use of of a non-Templar healer.

Again though that doesn't make the class bad, just the people, and this is regardless of whether or not the good or the bad are the majority of those users. And to be honest, most really good people don't use the group finder to begin with, they go with friends or guild members. But that does not make the class bad. The reason we are even discussing this is that the OP had a guild master that outright kicked anyone that even just had a character that was not the right combination of Role+Class, even though it did not matter. If he wanted to be picky he could have been so at times when he was forming for Trials, it makes no sense not to allow guild members to have non meta characters, its extreme, too extreme. So again, don't kick people based on Class+Role combo, if you need to kick its cause someone is an A hole in the group or if the person is really really really inept and doesn't learn from people trying to teach.

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

editing because I wanted to respond to this from another post but didn't want to make a separate post.

"so if a healer takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, the group doesn't lose any DPS, but if a DD takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, assuming that the DD has 30k DPS, that's a loss of 30k damage every 10 seconds."

So no DoTs? If you do pay attention to DPS you know your statement is false.

Its not that bad but its obviously a DPS drop from having to use a skill that deals no damage when someone else can get the buff to you. But please, stop thinking of this as the healer throwing out nothing but buffs, they don't really use that many.

Combat Prayer gives them Minor Beserk while at the same time giving defensive buffs such as Minor Resolve and Ward, as well that its a strong burst heal. No downside for a healer to use a burst heal now is there.

Something like Elemental Drain or Radiant Aura that gives Minor magickasteal is great not just for the DPS but for the Tank and Healer too, helps to keep your magicka up when you heavy attack an enemy, or apply a DoT to them. Some healers do this for multiple reasons, the DoT I mean, one of them being to sustain themselves easier with said DoT and Minor Magickasteal.

Warhorn is another thing heales do, and that tanks do as well. We call it the warhorn rotation where the healers and tanks spread out the ultimate usage to keep as best of an uptime as possible of this ultimate. It not only gives everyone more health to survive but also more magicka and stamina for more sustain and damage, and of course even more damage with the Major Force buff.

Now the only other straight up buff/debuff that healers might do, but not all, is the use of Elemental Blockade on their back bar with a lightning staff with charged trait and a shock enchantment, not only will this proc the magickasteal for the healer but it will help significantly in increasing the up time of Minor Vulnerability on the enemies as well as causing them to go off-balance which again increases damage dealt with current meta.

These four things plus shards/orbs can be done with very little effort.

Combat Prayer is a Burst heal, nothing lost in using it.
Magicka steal helps EVERYONE in better sustain, nothing lost
Warhorn makes heals stronger and make people survive longer.
Wall of Elements can, if time allows for it help a lot, this one is the one with the absolute least priority and should not be used during situations of high damage taking.

And orbs can be morphed to heal the allies, making it a strong HoT and the shards can he morphed to give resources back to the caster, and Shards should only be used really when you need specific people to get it, aka tank, and the orbs for the rest cause its easier to shoot out and, again, IT HEALS, so nothing lost in casting it.

Throw down your HoTs and stop over healing and something like this won't be that hard to do, there really shouldn't be a need to even argue about stuff like this.

And one important bit to remember, in Dungeons, that is the big majority of group content where you are only 4 people, this is all still true. Cause there is even less need to over heal as things really don't do all that much damage. No reason to spam Breath of Life or Healing Springs on allies with 100% health. In most scenarios only the tank gets hit, and a good tank can self sustain quite a bit too.

You all make it seem like the healer is meant to throw all the buffs out, when in reality its only 1 buff skills 1 buff ultimate and 1 potential damage/debuff skill. And 1-3 sustain skills depending on the situation. And considering that stacking HPS is super easy you really should be able to do this with minimal effort. But I am repeating myself.....

You are missing my point. I am not saying the healer shouldn't be buffing. I am saying the entire group needs to contribute. The people I am arguing with act as if the DPS need to do nothing but DPS. If they really are running trials to get on the leader board then they would know each member has their own thing to do, buffing is usually coordinated and often includes a DPS or two. Before going in you often hear the group leader ask do we have two ??? slotted and followed by player A you go first call player B you go 2nd call. Of course groups that run together a lot know that but usually group leader goes though it anyway. Shards, ele drain and balls are usually a part of my rotation unless I'm asked to slot something else. There are times though when the normal rotation goes out the window and I am saying when that happens the rest of the group needs to have something to they can use to self sustain until the healer gets back to normal rotation again. One person actually said a healer has to provide sustain because DPS stands for damage meaning that is all they should do. Using that line of thinking what should a healer do? I don't agree that DPS is damage only any more than I believe healing is healing only and that is what I have been saying. And yeah when doing the pledges as a healer I can not only sustain and boost but can actually get some DPS in on most fights. I think that is to be expected. Thing is though when I need to concentrate on healing the others are going to need to also adjust and at the very least throw in a heavy attack every other rotation or so if it isn't already a part of the rotation. And a tank that can self heal...that is gravy.

People already use a lot of heavy attacks since the sustain changes. Also what stuff are talking about in terms of group leader asking for stuff in Trials. All I can think about is Elemental Drain, Orbs and Shards, and I have never ever seen a group give that job to the DPS. Everyone in the group is already providing their own damage buffs with the exception of Minor Beserk in most situations cause most people use Weapon or Spell power pots that gives them the Major damage or crit buffs, the Minor ones are gained by the classes passives. The only thing missing is Minor Beserk, some classes do have that already but not all. The DPS are already doing their part of the buffing.

What is it exactly that you want the DPS's to do?

paulsimonps · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

Good healers can keep the group alive while supporting the group with resources and buffs/debuffs. Ofcourse when everyone is taking a lot of damage, the healer should focus on healing, but when everyone is alive and well, the healers should support the group instead of standing still or overhealing. This is exactly what makes a good healer: the ability to determine when to focus on healing and when he can spare time to provide resources, buffs and debuffs.

Bad healers will claim that they are always busy and can't spare time to buff/debuff while in fact they are actually overhealing the group. Good healers will find a nice balance and can keep the group alive while throwing in as much support as they can.

Exactly what I am saying. There is a time for healers to help with sustain and there is a time the others better be prepared to do a bit of sustain on their own. Some in this thread are acting as if DPS can't be bothered with anything other than standing in one spot swinging a big stick. We kind of got off track though. A good healer is going to be a good healer no matter the class played with some obvious exceptions.

Back to the OP it still sounds to me like the leader and friends didn't bother with adapting to the changes made and are looking for someone to blame. When one guild I am in saw the changes we started hitting the practice dummies and began working heavy attacks and other fun things into the rotations. A couple of the crazy ones even went in with a metronome or something similar and one would go through his rotation while the other would say late/early on each skill. They did that for hours but then again...crazy. They are good though.

If we talk about throwing shards or orbs, they are mostly meant for the tank, and in vet trials the tanks NEED them to survive.

As for vet dungeons, if you throw shards and orbs, it will increase the total group DPS, so the entire group will complete the dungeon much faster, which benefits everyone, the healer included. So, good healers will throw a lot of shards and orbs, and bad healers will make excuses like "i am busy take care of yourselves stupid DDs" while standing there and overhealing everything.

Well tanks don't strickly speaking need them to survive but it makes it much much easier for them to do their job and they can retaunt and redebuff easier and more often that way. And in fights with multiple things to taunt, say the Axes with the Mage it can be really helpful, or the welwas in Hel Ra, or the Twins adds in Maw. Taunting multiple things requires a lot of stamina. Its doable without Shards, but its a lot easier with it.

Tan9oSuccka · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

Because you don't pay enough attention?

I don't understand the rest of your argument, sorry.

To be honest, I haven't heard of him either although I don't seek out the theorycrafting crowd.

Paul may be a heckuva guy, but sadly not many "Paul's" in the group finder crowd that make best use of of a non-Templar healer.

You lost that argument to him, do i really have to remind you about that?

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

I find templar healing just to be more idiot friendly, but sorcerer to actually be far better at it. (at least in dungeons)
Haven't tried it on other classes yet

Details! Please! Specifically how a sorc healer is better. Curious, not angry in case I get attacked.

Yeah. Since June 2015, pugging with Sorc Healers, 1 was actually spec'd and geared for healing. I would say adequate.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Warden or Sorc healers. They do the job, but I'd rather have a good Templar.

I would rather have steak instead of hamburgers.

Hamburger to steak is a terrible and innacurate analogy. It suggests one is of higher objective quality to the other wich is false

As someone who Tanks Vet pugs, I stand by this statement an analogy.

Just because forum warriors can make a Sorc healer doesn't mean your average Joe Pug does it and well.

Templar healers, even the dumbest ones still slot BOL. The typical dumb Sorc healer usually uses mutagen and goes to his damage bar.

You can not use player competence to justify your views on whether or not a Class is good at healing or not. Anyone could be a potential idiot that slots the wrong things, even a templar healer could be stupid enough to not slot breath of life(side note, BoL is not the best heal in the game no matter what you might thing). But obviously if we talk only about competent people and those that understand how the game works then any class can heal, sure they all have different strengths and playstyles and some gives more to provide for the current meta than others but they can all fill the role very well. Just cause bad players play a class poorly doesn't mean they won't be just as bad on another, or vise versa, and it proves nothing about the class.

You both miss the point. You both assume all players run optimal builds, with flawless rotations and a perfect understanding of the class and it's limits and strengths.

If you take a great player, he'll make anything work.

In my opinion, Templars are more forgiving for a majority of players and easier to run. I never said anything about effectiveness.

You can rattle your sabre in victory, but victory for what exactly? Epeen?

Grow up.

paulsimonps · August 2017

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

I have to disagree. Sure, any class can heal, but can they heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials? The answer is no. A Nightblade, Sorcerer , or even a Warden healer can only compliment a Templar healer. With the exception of the Warden, the others fall short in every department when being the lead healer. I have seen some pretty solid NB healers, but they can't even pose as a personal healer for the tank in vet trials let alone heal an entire group who almost got wiped in one hit.

Had a Nightblade healer with me in vSO HM one time, they healed so well and understood the mechanics so well that even though it was their first time in SO ever they never died at the serpent, while the other healer, the templar did. She healed us all through it on her own for large portions of the fight when the other healer was down. A Nightblade. I was so impressed that I asked them for more and more runs, the person then wanted to get better and better and did indeed swap to a Templar after, but it just goes to show that a class other than a Templar could and indeed did do it.

A sorc or a DK could have done the same thing, in Trials the biggest thing is not the class abilities but the Restoration staff abilities, the class abilities does give the flavor of the class and gives different buffs and debuffs but we rely far more on the weapon abilities than the class abilities. Any class can heal any Trial, its just more effective with a certain set up. Same thing goes with Tanks.

Side note, that was also how I meet my now wife

Oh and another good example of a non Templar Healer that does veteran Trials I would say is @Tasear

AbysmalGhul · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

I have to disagree. Sure, any class can heal, but can they heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials? The answer is no. A Nightblade, Sorcerer , or even a Warden healer can only compliment a Templar healer. With the exception of the Warden, the others fall short in every department when being the lead healer. I have seen some pretty solid NB healers, but they can't even pose as a personal healer for the tank in vet trials let alone heal an entire group who almost got wiped in one hit.

You can effectively in harder vet content such as trials with any class. Tell me what Sorc, DK or Nightblade lack that makes them unable to heal vet trials effectively. Nothing. It used to be the case that they can't feed stamina to the tank, now they can. They have everything in their kit to heal in vet trials.

Please, demonstrate a build that would be highly effective in veteran trials for a Sorcerer, Dragonknight, or Nightblade? I have yet to see one. Like I said, they can compliment a Templar healer, but can't stand on their own.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

Good healers can keep the group alive while supporting the group with resources and buffs/debuffs. Ofcourse when everyone is taking a lot of damage, the healer should focus on healing, but when everyone is alive and well, the healers should support the group instead of standing still or overhealing. This is exactly what makes a good healer: the ability to determine when to focus on healing and when he can spare time to provide resources, buffs and debuffs.

Bad healers will claim that they are always busy and can't spare time to buff/debuff while in fact they are actually overhealing the group. Good healers will find a nice balance and can keep the group alive while throwing in as much support as they can.

Exactly what I am saying. There is a time for healers to help with sustain and there is a time the others better be prepared to do a bit of sustain on their own. Some in this thread are acting as if DPS can't be bothered with anything other than standing in one spot swinging a big stick. We kind of got off track though. A good healer is going to be a good healer no matter the class played with some obvious exceptions.

Back to the OP it still sounds to me like the leader and friends didn't bother with adapting to the changes made and are looking for someone to blame. When one guild I am in saw the changes we started hitting the practice dummies and began working heavy attacks and other fun things into the rotations. A couple of the crazy ones even went in with a metronome or something similar and one would go through his rotation while the other would say late/early on each skill. They did that for hours but then again...crazy. They are good though.

If we talk about throwing shards or orbs, they are mostly meant for the tank, and in vet trials the tanks NEED them to survive.

As for vet dungeons, if you throw shards and orbs, it will increase the total group DPS, so the entire group will complete the dungeon much faster, which benefits everyone, the healer included. So, good healers will throw a lot of shards and orbs, and bad healers will make excuses like "i am busy take care of yourselves stupid DDs" while standing there and overhealing everything.

Well tanks don't strickly speaking need them to survive but it makes it much much easier for them to do their job and they can retaunt and redebuff easier and more often that way. And in fights with multiple things to taunt, say the Axes with the Mage it can be really helpful, or the welwas in Hel Ra, or the Twins adds in Maw. Taunting multiple things requires a lot of stamina. Its doable without Shards, but its a lot easier with it.

Well I am not a top tier tank, so I find that i need shards/orbs to survive when tanking the axes or the Warrior. Maybe I just need to git gud. Problem is, it's hard to find a tank main theses days, no one wants to play tank, so it's hard to find good tanks, all the good ones are already in well established raid guilds. There's an abundant of healers, though :thinking:

WuffyCerulei · August 2017

That's so painfully elitist... His reasons are kinda out of date too now. Repentence no longer shares stam with the other group members, so it's evened out the playing field for other classes more. The other classes have access to orbs, which seems better than shards cuz you can have multiple out at the same time, where with shards you only have one.

paulsimonps · August 2017

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

I have to disagree. Sure, any class can heal, but can they heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials? The answer is no. A Nightblade, Sorcerer , or even a Warden healer can only compliment a Templar healer. With the exception of the Warden, the others fall short in every department when being the lead healer. I have seen some pretty solid NB healers, but they can't even pose as a personal healer for the tank in vet trials let alone heal an entire group who almost got wiped in one hit.

You can effectively in harder vet content such as trials with any class. Tell me what Sorc, DK or Nightblade lack that makes them unable to heal vet trials effectively. Nothing. It used to be the case that they can't feed stamina to the tank, now they can. They have everything in their kit to heal in vet trials.

Please, demonstrate a build that would be highly effective in veteran trials for a Sorcerer, Dragonknight, or Nightblade? I have yet to see one. Like I said, they can compliment a Templar healer, but can't stand on their own.

Exact same gear and CP set up as a Templar, just swap around some skills, and Boom you're golden.

paulsimonps · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

Good healers can keep the group alive while supporting the group with resources and buffs/debuffs. Ofcourse when everyone is taking a lot of damage, the healer should focus on healing, but when everyone is alive and well, the healers should support the group instead of standing still or overhealing. This is exactly what makes a good healer: the ability to determine when to focus on healing and when he can spare time to provide resources, buffs and debuffs.

Bad healers will claim that they are always busy and can't spare time to buff/debuff while in fact they are actually overhealing the group. Good healers will find a nice balance and can keep the group alive while throwing in as much support as they can.

Exactly what I am saying. There is a time for healers to help with sustain and there is a time the others better be prepared to do a bit of sustain on their own. Some in this thread are acting as if DPS can't be bothered with anything other than standing in one spot swinging a big stick. We kind of got off track though. A good healer is going to be a good healer no matter the class played with some obvious exceptions.

Back to the OP it still sounds to me like the leader and friends didn't bother with adapting to the changes made and are looking for someone to blame. When one guild I am in saw the changes we started hitting the practice dummies and began working heavy attacks and other fun things into the rotations. A couple of the crazy ones even went in with a metronome or something similar and one would go through his rotation while the other would say late/early on each skill. They did that for hours but then again...crazy. They are good though.

If we talk about throwing shards or orbs, they are mostly meant for the tank, and in vet trials the tanks NEED them to survive.

As for vet dungeons, if you throw shards and orbs, it will increase the total group DPS, so the entire group will complete the dungeon much faster, which benefits everyone, the healer included. So, good healers will throw a lot of shards and orbs, and bad healers will make excuses like "i am busy take care of yourselves stupid DDs" while standing there and overhealing everything.

Well tanks don't strickly speaking need them to survive but it makes it much much easier for them to do their job and they can retaunt and redebuff easier and more often that way. And in fights with multiple things to taunt, say the Axes with the Mage it can be really helpful, or the welwas in Hel Ra, or the Twins adds in Maw. Taunting multiple things requires a lot of stamina. Its doable without Shards, but its a lot easier with it.

Well I am not a top tier tank, so I find that i need shards/orbs to survive when tanking the axes or the Warrior. Maybe I just need to git gud. Problem is, it's hard to find a tank main theses days, no one wants to play tank, so it's hard to find good tanks, all the good ones are already in well established raid guilds. There's an abundant of healers, though :thinking:

yea, it also depends on your set up, some needs it more than other, but as long as they are given them they can perform really well. Also if you have a lot of healers around please send them my way

lacking both healers and other tanks.

AbysmalGhul · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

With the change to orb, every class can heal in vet trial now, just like every class can DPS. Some classes might be better than others, but all are viable enough to complete the content.

I have to disagree. Sure, any class can heal, but can they heal effectively in harder vet content such as trials? The answer is no. A Nightblade, Sorcerer , or even a Warden healer can only compliment a Templar healer. With the exception of the Warden, the others fall short in every department when being the lead healer. I have seen some pretty solid NB healers, but they can't even pose as a personal healer for the tank in vet trials let alone heal an entire group who almost got wiped in one hit.

You can effectively in harder vet content such as trials with any class. Tell me what Sorc, DK or Nightblade lack that makes them unable to heal vet trials effectively. Nothing. It used to be the case that they can't feed stamina to the tank, now they can. They have everything in their kit to heal in vet trials.

Please, demonstrate a build that would be highly effective in veteran trials for a Sorcerer, Dragonknight, or Nightblade? I have yet to see one. Like I said, they can compliment a Templar healer, but can't stand on their own.

Exact same gear and CP set up as a Templar, just swap around some skills, and Boom you're golden.

I'll create a build and check it out myself. This should be interesting enough.

*Whispers* If you build it, they will be healed