Kicking healers other then templars

Vizikul · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

You really don't understand what team work is it seems.....

It seems you don't understand that it's not a certain person's job to do something just because you are demanding it. To demand that a certain person shall do this or that is an immature and childish attitude.

TazESO · August 2017

StormWylf wrote: »

WOW!
Such tame responses.

1. Good riddance to the guild. You are clearly better off without them.
2. Your Guild leader is an ***. And frankly if I were in a guild when someone made such an idiotic statement and demand I would quit guild myself.
3. Don't worry about it, not your fault at all.
4. Be thankful you found out now, Anyone that stupid is bound to ruin you experience in a guild sooner or later.
5. Because it's worth repeating, Your Guild leader is an ***, and you are better off without him/her.

Ok, this was my initial reaction to OP's post too. I thought it, @StormWylf wrote it. Lol

IronCrystal · August 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Vizikul

In an organized raid group it is part of the healers job to help the group out with resources and to provide buffs to increase their dps. Tanks and healers are more than just meat shields and heals in this game. In the same token dps are not to solely rely on the healer to keep them alive, they must help.

No , it's not a healer's job to manage your resources. It's called a healer for a reason, it's not called a buffer or a resource manager but a healer, their only job is to keep the party alive. Of course, buffs, debuffs and resources will always be appreciated but it's not their job. When you play a dps, it is your job to deal dmg. If dps characters just spam their abilities until they are out of resources then they can't deal dmg anymore, therefore they are not doing their job.

Spamming abilities such as shards will drain your own resources quite quickly, so, when you have to manage the resources of your group members you will run out of resources yourself and then you can't heal anymore. If the healer runs out of resources, the group will most likely wipe. If the dps run out of resources, the group will still make it through but it takes a while. You can clearly see, where the priorities are.

When you speak of an organized group, I suppose you mean a group of players, who know the game mechanics and are able to avoid the telegraphs and incoming dmg. Being in a such a group, where the healer doesn't constantly need to heal morons that stand in the red, actually allows the healer to provide some buffs and resources, why not? What else to do, when the group avoids dmg and doesn't need many heals, especially when you consider that avoiding dmg costs a lot of resources as well. Otherwise, the group should hire an additional resource manager, which job is to spam shards/ orbs.

It's pretty clear you don't participate in good trials groups.

Sure, your dps can't be stupid when it comes to resources. If they constantly spam high cost skills then they are gonna run out.

But it is the healers job to keep a steady flow of resources coming in. It is proven that the DPS are far more effective when they can just focus on doing all the damage they can and not have to worry about resource management because the healer does it for them. That's why it is so apparent when you have a good healer vs a bad healer in a trial. DPS will suffer if the healer is not doing their job of providing resources.

The healer should never be running out of resources. A shard is nothing for a healer to throw. Orbs? You should have about 4 of them floating around every 10 or so seconds (different for different healers)..

To get the best damage...often times that means the dps are taking damage. You know how to complete Ra Kotu the fastest? Everyone stands in the whirling tornados and the healer heals through them. You know how to kill the storm atronach the fastest? Everyone stands in lighting (shields of course) and the healers heal through them. You know how to kill the mantikora the fastest? Everyone just straight burns the boss after the popcorn phase.

Having the healer dishing out buffs, debuffs, heals, and resources is how groups become the most effective.

Ya kinda contradict yourself here. Do you know why a healer can keep everyone alive in the whirling tornados? It isn't because the DPS is doing extra damage. It is because the healer is healing. The healers resources are the most important in the entire group. A self sustaining tank that needs occasional help and DPS that can be bothered to throw in a heavy attack every third rotation or have decent sustain go a long way in helping not just the healer but the entire group. Sure there are fights where the healer can concentrate on throwing out support. Then there are the fights you mentioned where the healer better be concentrating on healing. Sustain is part of my normal rotation, but sometimes normal doesn't cut it. When that happens the group needs to be able to provide some sustain of their own because I am busy keeping them standing.

I don't know about sorc healers in PvE but having one in the group in PvP comes in real handy. Running trials a Templar Warden tandem works really well. They compliment each others skills nicely.

Getting back to the OP... sounds like the leader of the guild (and probably others) failed to adapt to the changes and are looking for someone to blame.

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

zaria · August 2017

Shardan4968 wrote: »

I made Bosmer magicka warden healer two days ago. I can't wait to be insulted in PvE by no-skill DPS.

just link you combat metrics dps, if its above 30% you are good

above 50 and they are bad

paulsimonps · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You really don't understand what team work is it seems.....

It seems you don't understand that it's not a certain person's job to do something just because you are demanding it. To demand that a certain person shall do this or that is an immature and childish attitude.

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

Do you want a dungeon run to go faster? Then keep your DPS alive. Do you want it to go even faster? Give them offensive buffs. Do you want it to go even faster still? Then help them sustain better. Or if you want neither you can have it take longer and just straight heal. Your choice, but you are making it harder for everyone else that you play with. No one is really demanding, but we are expecting, cause in 90% of all content if you just straight heal and nothing else then you are over healing like a mofo. Its a waste of time and potential.

Sure the DPS can always put more into sustain or do more Heavy attacks, BUT this lowers their DPS and makes each and every encounter take longer. And some content does have DPS races, where if your DPS is too low then you die. There are less of these now since the powerscaling has given us much more damage but a good example is the 3rd boss of Veteran Aetherian Archives. To low DPS will cause the entire team to die.

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

kargen27 · August 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

I find templar healing just to be more idiot friendly, but sorcerer to actually be far better at it. (at least in dungeons)
Haven't tried it on other classes yet

Details! Please! Specifically how a sorc healer is better. Curious, not angry in case I get attacked.

Yeah. Since June 2015, pugging with Sorc Healers, 1 was actually spec'd and geared for healing. I would say adequate.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Warden or Sorc healers. They do the job, but I'd rather have a good Templar.

I would rather have steak instead of hamburgers.

Hamburger to steak is a terrible and innacurate analogy. It suggests one is of higher objective quality to the other wich is false

As someone who Tanks Vet pugs, I stand by this statement an analogy.

Just because forum warriors can make a Sorc healer doesn't mean your average Joe Pug does it and well.

Templar healers, even the dumbest ones still slot BOL. The typical dumb Sorc healer usually uses mutagen and goes to his damage bar.

Breath of Life has pretty much become the oh $#!+ I better heal myself skill. It really isn't much good for more than that. Sure it will heal one other player in the group but no way of determining which player gets it and the skill is way to expensive to spam until it heals the right character.

Your analogy is apt though even if I don't completely agree with the point. Hamburger usually is inferior to steak as more often than not the meat used for hamburger is the lower quality cuts. Then again if you want to spend the money you can get hamburger that comes from the choicest cuts. So looking at it like that we have to consider there may well be some very fine sorc healers out there.

zaria · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Vizikul

In an organized raid group it is part of the healers job to help the group out with resources and to provide buffs to increase their dps. Tanks and healers are more than just meat shields and heals in this game. In the same token dps are not to solely rely on the healer to keep them alive, they must help.

No , it's not a healer's job to manage your resources. It's called a healer for a reason, it's not called a buffer or a resource manager but a healer, their only job is to keep the party alive. Of course, buffs, debuffs and resources will always be appreciated but it's not their job. When you play a dps, it is your job to deal dmg. When dps characters just spam their abilities until they are out of resources then they can't deal dmg anymore, therefore they are not doing their job.

Spamming abilities such as shards will drain your own resources quite quickly, so, when you have to manage the resources of your group members you will run out of resources yourself and then you can't heal anymore. If the healer runs out of resources, the group will most likely wipe. If the dps run out of resources, the group will still make it through but it takes a while. You can clearly see, where the priorities are.

When you speak of an organized group, I suppose you mean a group of players, who know the game mechanics and are able to avoid the telegraphs and incoming dmg. Being in a such a group, where the healer doesn't constantly need to heal morons that stand in the red, actually allows the healer to provide some buffs and resources, why not? What else to do, when the group avoids dmg and doesn't need many heals, especially when you consider that avoiding dmg costs a lot of resources as well. Otherwise, the group should hire an additional 'resource manager', who just spams shards/ orbs.

Both healer and tank is support,
It depend on situation, if group take heavy damage you only heal, keeping ele drain up and HA to restore magic as much as you can.
if not then you want to drop shards or orbs to feed resources, after this you do damage, no you do not want to drain your resources too much doing this, this also applies to trash as you want magic then facing next boss.

ComboBreaker88 · August 2017

How dare you shame my stamina nightblade healer! I can play the game however I want and you have to deal with it or my feelings will get hurt and that makes you a horrible human being for assaulting me with facts and logic! Shame on you all!

Teridaxus · August 2017

Personal rule:
If someone starts a votekick before even the first mob/boss is engaged, i votekick that person who initiated the first vote and as cp 630 dk tank i tend to be on the top of the importance food chain and the other two players will likely agree then.

max_only · August 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Evey class can do any role but some class are better than others in specific roles, I have been in this game from 2+ years and played with every class and role:

DK as Main Tank
Sorcerer as DPS
Templar as Healers
Nighblade as DPS (best in single target dps and top in pvp aka Ganker recenty got ganked in IC and lost around 40k TV

Warden as Healer and Tank

Not according to most in this thread.

I suggest they tank some Pug Vets.

I honestly change my build around for them. Oh great....A Sorcerer healer. Better put on Engine Guardian and Vigor. (Not only will I get weak heals, but also nothing in resource management).

I pug vets. Got a tank just for that purpose. it pains me that I have to stick with my "pug life" armor sets in order to survive but I can't depend on anyone these days to queue for what they really are. That's just the nature of the game and I've accepted it a long time ago. When I tank, I prepare for the worst. When I'm on my healer, I really get to see how the rest of the community takes advantage of a powerful healer/support. Pugs are like "Oh I'll just stand inside of purple phase vet HM VoM because the healer will burst me through it" I just facepalm and struggle through it. "Oh why our dps drop off suddenly?" Because I had to slot nothing but heals and support cause your dumb ashes won't stop standing in blue fire! Sigh, it's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Evey class can do any role but some class are better than others in specific roles, I have been in this game from 2+ years and played with every class and role:

DK as Main Tank
Sorcerer as DPS
Templar as Healers
Nighblade as DPS (best in single target dps and top in pvp aka Ganker recenty got ganked in IC and lost around 40k TV

Warden as Healer and Tank

Not according to most in this thread.

I suggest they tank some Pug Vets.

I honestly change my build around for them. Oh great....A Sorcerer healer. Better put on Engine Guardian and Vigor. (Not only will I get weak heals, but also nothing in resource management).

As I've said before, THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERY HEALER THAT IS NOT A TEMPLAR, THERE ARE BAD TEMPLAR HEALERS TOO. CLASS=/=PLAYER SKILL LEVEL

You act as though it's the rule......and not the exception.

Yoloswag420 forum guy does not represent a majority of the playing community.

Maybe you're on mobile... check out Paul's sig and the math he's done for the community. I don't want to ride his deck...... but he's not some random Yoloswag forum guy....

Vizikul · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

IronCrystal · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

ok, I'd like to see you get higher scores in trials that way.

exeeter702 · August 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Slack wrote: »

I find templar healing just to be more idiot friendly, but sorcerer to actually be far better at it. (at least in dungeons)
Haven't tried it on other classes yet

Details! Please! Specifically how a sorc healer is better. Curious, not angry in case I get attacked.

Yeah. Since June 2015, pugging with Sorc Healers, 1 was actually spec'd and geared for healing. I would say adequate.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not a fan of Warden or Sorc healers. They do the job, but I'd rather have a good Templar.

I would rather have steak instead of hamburgers.

Hamburger to steak is a terrible and innacurate analogy. It suggests one is of higher objective quality to the other wich is false

As someone who Tanks Vet pugs, I stand by this statement an analogy.

Just because forum warriors can make a Sorc healer doesn't mean your average Joe Pug does it and well.

Templar healers, even the dumbest ones still slot BOL. The typical dumb Sorc healer usually uses mutagen and goes to his damage bar.

Im failing to understand how player ineptitude has anything to do with your anaology. At the highest player level for example, a templar and a nb in the healing role will produce competetive results. Steak is objectively a higher quality meat than ground beef. Templars are not objectively superior in the healing role to non templars, if of course your having the discussion with experienced and well informed players.

Top players don't play the classes/skills they want to. They play whats best. If other healers were truly superior, you'd see them on the leaderboards. Right now, we see templars and some wardens. Not sorcs, nightblades, or DKs.

You are missing the point entirely.

Tasear · August 2017

[/quote]

Not according to most in this thread.

I suggest they tank some Pug Vets.

I honestly change my build around for them. Oh great....A Sorcerer healer. Better put on Engine Guardian and Vigor. (Not only will I get weak heals, but also nothing in resource management).
[/quote]

is this bait

?

I am bored and theorycrafting right now so let me bite. I am feel like maybe it's wiser to ignore this misconception to above the nerf hammer of doom! But clearly I talk too much, so let me go on and share some insight or ramble.

Engine Guardian

I am going to assume you actually haven't login in for say a month or maybe two. As you educate you on the point undaunted orbs give resources ... even before that didn't sorc healers have access to more synergies then other 4 classes. So assuming you are a pro pugger than you have undaunted mettle and command passives no?

weak heals,

One day... templar will start complaining about twlight .... but I will leave you with this misconception...moving on

Just remembers it dies too, and has to resummoned so it's fair....

Vigor

It's no nightblade hots but sorc does have spell damage passives and major sorcery skill to boost hots so generally it's say number 2 in hots. MInd you they have to use resto stave unlike the other 4 classes .

SorcOverall

Dominate in 4 man gameplay because they are the most flexible of the 5 classes. Has more synergies than other classes and accessibility to give a range of buffs. While also a good hybrid to aoe dps/heal

Skilled enough the sorc makes good 2nd healer choice for it's better access to skills and resources management to allies through regains. Also tends to complement other 4 healers in their weakness, so a good 2nd I say.

Hmm... they are really bad choice for pvp healer... very bad choice. Obviously I am baised cause I suck, but in large war fare seems to not work as well. Need more experience to have a solid opinion, but this really seems like nightblade and wardens area while templars and sorrecers fight it out in pve.

MLGProPlayer · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

paulsimonps · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

*a moron

Also you really are a special little snowflake..... 2 healers and 10 DPS you say, so no tanks then? Either way, the Damage dealers job is to well you know... DEAL DAMAGE. And the best way they can do that is to use as well planned out rotation of DoTs, and Spammables while keeping their sustain up the best they can. A Tanks job is to not only taunt and crowd control but also debuff the enemies and buff the team with what they can. But the healer is a great position of being able to heal but between the heals also support the team so the Damage dealers can perform to the absolute best of their potential. We have been over this before.....

Do you look down on the Damage Dealers for doing their thing? Also its not like you are using a crap ton of stuff, Combat Prayer, Minor Magicka steal and the odd orbs that also heals, and then the warhorns. OH GOD YOU HAVE SUCH PRESSURE ON YOU, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT.

Yes it is still teamwork that the healer buffs the damage dealers, its so they can do their job better and focus on getting higher DPS. Having super high HPS won't add a single thing to the group, there is such a thing as overhealing. Why does this need to be explained? Do you not want teams to perform to the best of their potential? Sure not everyone is wanting to be really competitive but intentionally not doing certain things will just drag people down. Yes we have some things we expect of our roles cause that is how these roles have developed over the years. I mean a tank could just hold agro and then do nothing more than that but would you not want him to do more? Would you not want him to also crowd control the trash mobs and debuff targets as best he could? And most tanks also help the team with damage shields as well as giving warhorns, some tanks even use orbs too to help even more. I don't see tanks complaining that they have a lot on their plate. Just you, not wanting it to be your "job"

Vizikul · August 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

ok, I'd like to see you get higher scores in trials that way.

I have no idea, what you are talking about. Not even in one of my posts did I say anything about scores or how I expect someone to do a certain thing. You guys seem to be people with huge expectations and want those support roles to multitask the bones out of their fingers. And why the heck are you keep referring to trials? There is still more group play than just trials.

IronCrystal · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

ok, I'd like to see you get higher scores in trials that way.

I have no idea, what you are talking about. Not even in one of my posts did I say anything about scores or how I expect someone to do a certain thing. You guys seem to be people with huge expectations and want those support roles to multitask the bones out of their fingers. And why the heck are you keep referring to trials? There is still more group play than just trials.

Because anything other than trials literally doesn't matter. You can do anything you want in dungeons or overland.

Kali_Despoine · August 2017

Well then that's not a guild to be in if you only have one toon and it's a nb healer

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Evey class can do any role but some class are better than others in specific roles, I have been in this game from 2+ years and played with every class and role:

DK as Main Tank
Sorcerer as DPS
Templar as Healers
Nighblade as DPS (best in single target dps and top in pvp aka Ganker recenty got ganked in IC and lost around 40k TV

Warden as Healer and Tank

Doesn't mean non-Templar can't heal in endgame :P

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game. He runs vet trials with top-score groups, he knows all the inside out of the game, his knowledge is well respected among the community.

What have you accomplished, like, have you ever done vMoL? I guess you haven't. Don't talk to him about group optimization until your name appears on top of the leaderboard like his name does, because you know nothing about optimization and teamwork lol.

The reason why healers (and tanks) provide buffs and debuffs because it's the most optimal way to complete the content. Why? Healer's DPS are minimal anyway, so if a healer takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, the group doesn't lose any DPS, but if a DD takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, assuming that the DD has 30k DPS, that's a loss of 30k damage every 10 seconds. Let's say there are 1 tank, 1 off-tank, 2 healers, 8 DDs, so that's a 240k damage loss every 10 seconds. 1 minute and it's a 1.44 million damage loss, 5 minutes and it's a 7.2 million damage loss. Top tier DDs have way more than 30k DPS, they can pull 50k-60K DPS, making the DPS loss of the entire group even bigger if they spend time casting buffs, debuffs instead, so it can be close to 14 million damage loss every 5 minutes for top tier groups. DPS loss means the group's score will be significant lower and you will complete the content much more slower. In trials which have DPS check, there's a chance you won't complete the content at all because of the DPS loss.
Healers don't need to spam heal all the time to keep the group alive anyway, so they can spare a few seconds to cast buffs and debuffs. Of course if everyone is dying quickly the healers should focus on healing instead of casting buffs/debuffs, but if everyone is alive and well they should certainly provide support instead of standing still or overhealing the group lol.

So, it looks like you are the lazy and selfish one, instead of helping the group when they don't need healing, you choose to stand still or overheal the group because it's easier to do.

Darlgon · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Darlgon wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

Because you don't pay enough attention?

I don't understand the rest of your argument, sorry.

Artis · August 2017

Vizikul wrote: »

shards are not available to healers but to templars, the templar can be a healer, a tank or a dps. Orbs are available to everyone, so every single dps character also has access to it

As others said before you typed this - you just demonstrate that you don't run in vet trial groups. Why would you make a DPS slot orbs or shards and lose their DPS? The whole point is to optimize the group - so that it has enough tankiness and resources and maximize DPS when tankiness/resources threshold is met.

Vizikul wrote: »

Exactly, we don't have a buff class/ role, so it's nobody's 'job' to buff because it's not a job to buff, buffs are an extra.
All classes are designed to do everything. DK's can provide major brutality and sorcery to the party, it doesn't matter if they play as a tank, a healer or a dps. I buff my team mates no matter if I play as healer, tank or dps but it's not my job to do so. I just do it to speed up the run.
Unless like in other games you can't even see the resources of your team mates... but now it's a healer's responsibility to manage your resources, when he doesn't even know how much you have remaining? Every single class has access to orbs and still you claim it's the healer's job to manage your resources. It is your character, it are your resources and it is your responsibility to manage them. In real life it's not the job of your friends to manage your finances either, that is your job and only your job.

When your group is trying to complete content in the fastest and easiest way , IT IS your job (as a healer) to provide certain buffs, otherwise you are wasting your potential and another healer in your spot would make a group stronger. Why would DK proved buffs that every DPS and healer should have 100% of the time from the potions?

Finances are irrelevant. With orbs, again, yes it is healer's job. Just like it's DPS's job to make the entire group (including healers) to finish the encounter faster and easier.

See, your mindset is just wrong. The only thing you can do - and do it for yourself - is try to join a trials group or better lead your own group and try all things yourself. Make DPS slot orbs? Sure. Who will make up for the decrease in DPS? If a healer doesn't have orbs/shards slotted, what does he have instead and how does it make the group stronger compared to healer having those things and DPS dealing more DPS?

Also, don't call people morons, when you are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean, not even scores, but it's common sense. Why would a group need to be tankier than necessary? It's a waste of potential.

Then again, you do you. Heal however you want. You don't have to learn. But if you want to - then you should be more open-minded and willing to listen to people who are more experienced than you.

Darlgon wrote: »

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

Not every raider is showing off. But idk - why do you think you should've heard about him? Are you watching leaderboards 24/7? I mean, a simple google search shows, for example, https://esoleaderboards.com/archivepage.php?archive=4&trial=AA that he used to have good scores somewhere in the past with a character we see in his signature. And we don't know his @name and alts, maybe still doing good. That doesn't matter though, what he says makes sense even if he was the worst player.

Betsararie · August 2017

Templars are, objectively, the best healers. There is no use arguing that at all.

That said, the only time where I truly care about the class of my healer is in vet dlc dungeons, or normal/vet trials.

The rest of the group content in the game is simply too easy to be bothered about it.

Whether or not he is morally correct for wanting kick non-Templar healers out of the guild, is another question.

kargen27 · August 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Vizikul

In an organized raid group it is part of the healers job to help the group out with resources and to provide buffs to increase their dps. Tanks and healers are more than just meat shields and heals in this game. In the same token dps are not to solely rely on the healer to keep them alive, they must help.

No , it's not a healer's job to manage your resources. It's called a healer for a reason, it's not called a buffer or a resource manager but a healer, their only job is to keep the party alive. Of course, buffs, debuffs and resources will always be appreciated but it's not their job. When you play a dps, it is your job to deal dmg. If dps characters just spam their abilities until they are out of resources then they can't deal dmg anymore, therefore they are not doing their job.

Spamming abilities such as shards will drain your own resources quite quickly, so, when you have to manage the resources of your group members you will run out of resources yourself and then you can't heal anymore. If the healer runs out of resources, the group will most likely wipe. If the dps run out of resources, the group will still make it through but it takes a while. You can clearly see, where the priorities are.

When you speak of an organized group, I suppose you mean a group of players, who know the game mechanics and are able to avoid the telegraphs and incoming dmg. Being in a such a group, where the healer doesn't constantly need to heal morons that stand in the red, actually allows the healer to provide some buffs and resources, why not? What else to do, when the group avoids dmg and doesn't need many heals, especially when you consider that avoiding dmg costs a lot of resources as well. Otherwise, the group should hire an additional resource manager, which job is to spam shards/ orbs.

It's pretty clear you don't participate in good trials groups.

Sure, your dps can't be stupid when it comes to resources. If they constantly spam high cost skills then they are gonna run out.

But it is the healers job to keep a steady flow of resources coming in. It is proven that the DPS are far more effective when they can just focus on doing all the damage they can and not have to worry about resource management because the healer does it for them. That's why it is so apparent when you have a good healer vs a bad healer in a trial. DPS will suffer if the healer is not doing their job of providing resources.

The healer should never be running out of resources. A shard is nothing for a healer to throw. Orbs? You should have about 4 of them floating around every 10 or so seconds (different for different healers)..

To get the best damage...often times that means the dps are taking damage. You know how to complete Ra Kotu the fastest? Everyone stands in the whirling tornados and the healer heals through them. You know how to kill the storm atronach the fastest? Everyone stands in lighting (shields of course) and the healers heal through them. You know how to kill the mantikora the fastest? Everyone just straight burns the boss after the popcorn phase.

Having the healer dishing out buffs, debuffs, heals, and resources is how groups become the most effective.

Ya kinda contradict yourself here. Do you know why a healer can keep everyone alive in the whirling tornados? It isn't because the DPS is doing extra damage. It is because the healer is healing. The healers resources are the most important in the entire group. A self sustaining tank that needs occasional help and DPS that can be bothered to throw in a heavy attack every third rotation or have decent sustain go a long way in helping not just the healer but the entire group. Sure there are fights where the healer can concentrate on throwing out support. Then there are the fights you mentioned where the healer better be concentrating on healing. Sustain is part of my normal rotation, but sometimes normal doesn't cut it. When that happens the group needs to be able to provide some sustain of their own because I am busy keeping them standing.

I don't know about sorc healers in PvE but having one in the group in PvP comes in real handy. Running trials a Templar Warden tandem works really well. They compliment each others skills nicely.

Getting back to the OP... sounds like the leader of the guild (and probably others) failed to adapt to the changes and are looking for someone to blame.

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

You are right good healers do both and I agreed with that. But a good healer also knows when it is time to concentrate on the healing and the examples you provided are examples of time to heal. When the strategy is stand in the red then the group better be able to sustain themselves for a bit because the healer will be busy. Not much worse than a glass cannon going in expecting to be kept alive and fed resources through the entire fight. Sure the healer needs to provide resources when they can but that doesn't fall just on them. The rest of the group better kick in as well. Doesn't take much to throw in an extra skill every other rotation.

kargen27 · August 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

editing because I wanted to respond to this from another post but didn't want to make a separate post.

"so if a healer takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, the group doesn't lose any DPS, but if a DD takes 1 second in every 10 seconds to cast a buff/debuff, assuming that the DD has 30k DPS, that's a loss of 30k damage every 10 seconds."

So no DoTs? If you do pay attention to DPS you know your statement is false.

exeeter702 · August 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Templars are, objectively, the best healers. There is no use arguing that at all.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vizikul wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

You are not managing someone else resources you know? You are helping them sustain longer so that they can perform better. What else are you gonna do? Just sit there and overheal? Do you just heal? Nothing but straight heal? No buffs or debuffs at all? Are you trying to win an award for the laziest healer in the game?

The way you are arguing it seems like you are almost lacking even the smallest bit of knowledge about the game in terms of group content. Or do you really like it when it takes longer to complete stuff?

I've got a strong feeling that you are moron. I already stated that I do provide buffs, no matter what class I play but not because "it's my job", it's not. You can complete stuff without any buffs, buffs just speed everything up. It's not a healer's or tank's task to make everything as easy as possible and enable speed runs, their only job is to make sure that you do complete the content. That's it.
Beside of that, you speak of teamwork and expect a healer to do a dozens of things at the same time. But what about you? what the heck are doing when you play a dps? Dealing dmg, that's it? Are you not providing any buffs yourself? Probably not, because "it's the healer's job".

IronCrystal wrote: »

Good healers do both. That's all I'm gonna say. You gotta heal and keep up buffs and keep up resources and keep up debuffs. All part of a healer's job. Trust me I know from personal experience. There are 2 healers, you know. They share in these responsibilities.

2 healers and like 10 dps but the healers have to do everything because the dps are lazy and selfish. Let the dps go afk and let the healers also do the dps while they are healing and buffing and debuffing and managing resources. Is it that what you call teamwork @paulsimonps ?

You obviously don't do leader board runs so I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this argument. It's 100% the healer's job to buff and provide resources so that DPS can focus on DPSing. This is doubly true in leader board runs where how fast you clear the content is key.

Actually staying alive is key as each death does what?

Good healers can keep the group alive while supporting the group with resources and buffs/debuffs. Ofcourse when everyone is taking a lot of damage, the healer should focus on healing, but when everyone is alive and well, the healers should support the group instead of standing still or overhealing. This is exactly what makes a good healer: the ability to determine when to focus on healing and when he can spare time to provide resources, buffs and debuffs.

Bad healers will claim that they are always busy and can't spare time to buff/debuff while in fact they are actually overhealing the group. Good healers will find a nice balance and can keep the group alive while throwing in as much support as they can.

Tan9oSuccka · August 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

paulsimonps is one of the best tank players and theorycrafters in the entire game.

Why have I never heard of him until this thread?

The rest of it.. well.. kinda find it hard to argue with.

Of course.. the DPS could ALSO being throwing out debuffs.. and why has that DPS should be weaving in heavy attacks for THEIR OWN sustain not been brought up yet?

Because you don't pay enough attention?

I don't understand the rest of your argument, sorry.

To be honest, I haven't heard of him either although I don't seek out the theorycrafting crowd.

Paul may be a heckuva guy, but sadly not many "Paul's" in the group finder crowd that make best use of of a non-Templar healer.

Brrrofski · August 2017

Trials, I have only healed with Templar. Mainly because that's all I had at the time and don't do trials anymore.

Dungeons... Any of them can. Quite well too. They all have orbs instead of shards and purge instead of cleansing ritual.

I've healed with Templar, sorc and nightblade. Templar does two things better - shards is an easier synergy to grab than orbs, and debuff the boss with power of the light.

My nightblade healer added quite a nice bit of do as you heal a lot with path, funnel and sap. Downside is using healing ward as a burst heal.

Recently playing a sorc healer. The pet isn't a cone like bol which is nice. Negate can be a great tool. Shielding the pet gives increased magica regen to group. Cheap ult cost so warhorn quicker. Lightning heavies do a decent bit of damage in between healing too.

Wardens on paper look like good healers as well. Group resistances, good hots, burst heal, amazing healing ult, give resources back with heals.

DKs are the only one with easy major mending, but like NB have only healing ward as burst heal. Can also provide spell/weapon damage buffs. Can also help with crowd control.

Are Templars the best? Yeh, in my opinion they are. For most content though, all are absolutely fine.