Which Alliance is the most evil?

SFDB · August 2017

Daggerfall Covenant - explain

Like has been said, everybody looks bad in the other faction's story, so I pick DC because in other factions he's the biggest prick when you invite him to the summit, and he's the biggest once he reaches the summit. In this case I'll judge evil as "biggest jerk in charge."

Korah_Eaglecry · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

theher0not wrote: »

I vote EP because they still allow some forms of slavery.

Sure the AD soldiers in Shadowfen where clawless monsters, but I don't beleve that they where following Ayreen's orders. They where most likley rogues who pretended that they were acting "for the dominion", just as what the Veiled Heritage did at the collage in Auridon.

The Altmer/Aldmer are the originators of slavery. Where did you think the Chimer/Dunmer got the idea for lesser races? The AD storyline takes you to a cave where there are goblins, former slaves, basically hiding out from their former oppressors. The Altmer never stopped enslaving "lesser races". It just doesnt get the attention of the players the way Argonian and Khajiit slaves do because Goblins dont actually have a voice or a story to tell.

As for the AD army in Shadowfen.....its an army. A large enough force that could commit a large atrocity as to threaten the Hist and next generation of that region. Thats not one or two people. Ayrenn or one of her generals signed off on that campaign into Shadowfen. So ultimately regardless of whether shed give a thumbs up or not. She IS responsible.

The Altmer use Daedra (and goblins) as slaves. Goblins aren't sentient. They don't use any Mer, Men or Beastfolk race (sentient race) as slave.

Shadowfen is actually a huge continuity conflict, a result of having different writers who don't work together. The Orrery (Aylied's lie detector machine) has certified that Queen Aryenn has a pure heart, so no way could she know about what Ruuvitar was doing in Shadowfen - she has a pure heart she can't be the person who ordered Holocaust on the Argonian, it also conflicts with the fact that she took in a lot of Argonian refugees (and Orc refugees) and gave them a home because they were treated terribly by the Pact. It doesn't make any sense. The only explanation can be made is that it was supposed to be a regular invasion but Ruuvitar took the chance to go rouge and the Queen didn't know about his true plan. Otherwise, this is a continuity error.

Goblins are most definitely sentient. Like I said they just arent given a voice and story. Take a trip to Auridon and head on down to Toothmaul Gully. The goblins you interact with there are most definitely sentient.

Goblins aren't even capable of making a proper sentence, no grammar, they don't have a culture, can't perceive complex ideas. They are still at the primal state. They are slightly more advanced than animals but they are far below Argonian, Khajiit, Breton or other Men/Mer/Beastfolks races that Dunmer keep as slaves.

The definition of sentient is to perceive or feel things. Creating proper sentences, using proper grammar does not make them non-sentient. Im not sure what Goblins youve encountered in game but they do have a culture. They have the ability to pray to and worship gods and DO have the capacity to speak even in broken language. Primal or not, they are sentient. Just because Mer and Men have decided collectively to call them non-sentient as an excuse to uproot them from their resource rich homes and enslave them does not mean they are by definition not sentient.

Culture, language, cities and so forth does not define sentience.

max_only · August 2017

Ebonhart Pact - explain

Pact Dunmer still keep slaves in Kragenmor. Khajiit slaves. Also Vivec drowned thousands of his own soldiers to defeat the Akiviri (Stonefalls quest).
Dunmer spread disease as a part of their warfare tactics (chemical weapons/Llodos plague). I've only ever come upon Dunmer scamming the poor out of their souls. State-sanctioned murder cult (as opposed to everyone-knows-the-secret "secret" Brotherhood). Not to mention the loudest of the Pact players (Nord and Dunmer) consistently representing themselves as rp-racist, rp-xenophobic, rp-bigots, etc. What would give people the idea that the Dunmer are villainous if they didn't present as sashholes in game?

The Pact's only saving grace are the self-sacrificing Argonians who uplift the whole mood of that alliance with their funny voices and genuine care of the world. Even their assassins are quirky-cute.

Chrlynsch · August 2017

Whoever made the post and didn't match the response to the races actual color... Soo evil...

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Daggerfall Covenant - explain

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Shadowfen is far from a continuity error. It doesnt conflict with a device created by a race of elves known for slavery and entire cities built up around daedra worship. Pure of heart for a Elf is not the same as Pure of heart for a Man. Purity of heart is completely subjective and would be completely based on the opinions of those who created the device.

Firstly, Daedra worship isn't a bad thing. Bad Daedra worship is a bad thing. Nothing wrong with worshipping Azura or Meridia. In addition to that, the Altmer don't worship Daedra. Slavery is definitely not something Queen Aryenn aims for. As we all know, the Altmer don't plan to enslave Argonian or anybody else.

Secondly, you are acting like Ayleid is a race full of bad people. That's false. Even in the case of slavery, a large part of the Ayleid were supporting Alessia and her uprising, after the revolution of the Imperials, those Ayleids processed to live in peace with the Imperials to a point when the humans started to be pitiful and kicked them out. Then they moved to High Rock and continued to live there. "Purity of heart" is about the best you can get out of the brightest people, and the brightest of the Ayleids are millions times purer and morally superior compared to Emeric orJorunn.

Thirdly, even if there's any difference between Pure of heart for an Elf and Pure of heart for a Man, trying to kill off the entire Argonian race is always a bad thing in any moral standard. Even the Thalmor in 4th Era, evil as they are, don't do something as evil as that.

Fourthly, the Orrery is a lie detector machine, it checks if what Queen Aryenn says she wants to do is actually what she heartfully wants to do. She saysshe wants to bring peace and prosperity to everyone in Tamriel, she doesn't "seek riches or plunder" and "domination is not her goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake", the point of the Orrery test is to make sure that all the claims above are her true intention, and they are proven to be true, she really doesn't seek raw power for the sake of it, she heartfully wants to make Tamriel brighter. So of course killing off the entire Argonian race doesn't fit in her vision of peace and prosperity, backed up by the fact that she took in a lot of Argonians refugees, gave them a home because they were treated like **** by the Pact.

It is a continuity error, if you are an Argonian, will you flee to the country that just tried to kill off your entire race? Probably not, right? Yet Argonians are fleeing to AD because they are treated like **** by EP.

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Daggerfall Covenant - explain

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

theher0not wrote: »

I vote EP because they still allow some forms of slavery.

Sure the AD soldiers in Shadowfen where clawless monsters, but I don't beleve that they where following Ayreen's orders. They where most likley rogues who pretended that they were acting "for the dominion", just as what the Veiled Heritage did at the collage in Auridon.

The Altmer/Aldmer are the originators of slavery. Where did you think the Chimer/Dunmer got the idea for lesser races? The AD storyline takes you to a cave where there are goblins, former slaves, basically hiding out from their former oppressors. The Altmer never stopped enslaving "lesser races". It just doesnt get the attention of the players the way Argonian and Khajiit slaves do because Goblins dont actually have a voice or a story to tell.

As for the AD army in Shadowfen.....its an army. A large enough force that could commit a large atrocity as to threaten the Hist and next generation of that region. Thats not one or two people. Ayrenn or one of her generals signed off on that campaign into Shadowfen. So ultimately regardless of whether shed give a thumbs up or not. She IS responsible.

The Altmer use Daedra (and goblins) as slaves. Goblins aren't sentient. They don't use any Mer, Men or Beastfolk race (sentient race) as slave.

Shadowfen is actually a huge continuity conflict, a result of having different writers who don't work together. The Orrery (Aylied's lie detector machine) has certified that Queen Aryenn has a pure heart, so no way could she know about what Ruuvitar was doing in Shadowfen - she has a pure heart she can't be the person who ordered Holocaust on the Argonian, it also conflicts with the fact that she took in a lot of Argonian refugees (and Orc refugees) and gave them a home because they were treated terribly by the Pact. It doesn't make any sense. The only explanation can be made is that it was supposed to be a regular invasion but Ruuvitar took the chance to go rouge and the Queen didn't know about his true plan. Otherwise, this is a continuity error.

Goblins are most definitely sentient. Like I said they just arent given a voice and story. Take a trip to Auridon and head on down to Toothmaul Gully. The goblins you interact with there are most definitely sentient.

Goblins aren't even capable of making a proper sentence, no grammar, they don't have a culture, can't perceive complex ideas. They are still at the primal state. They are slightly more advanced than animals but they are far below Argonian, Khajiit, Breton or other Men/Mer/Beastfolks races that Dunmer keep as slaves.

The definition of sentient is to perceive or feel things. Creating proper sentences, using proper grammar does not make them non-sentient. Im not sure what Goblins youve encountered in game but they do have a culture. They have the ability to pray to and worship gods and DO have the capacity to speak even in broken language. Primal or not, they are sentient. Just because Mer and Men have decided collectively to call them non-sentient as an excuse to uproot them from their resource rich homes and enslave them does not mean they are by definition not sentient.

Culture, language, cities and so forth does not define sentience.

Sentient was a bad choice of words, I am not a native English speaker, pardon me. If the thing we see from the Goblin is called "culture", beavers actually have a more advanced one. The fact that they can make noises that resembles a broken language makes them slightly more advanced than animals but they are far below Argonian, Khajiit, Breton or other Men/Mer/Beastfolks races that Dunmer keep as slaves. Until they evolve enough to comprehend complex ideas and develope a culture, they can't join the society of Men, Mer and Beastfolks, comparing enslaving Goblins to enslaving Argonian, Khajiit, Orc and Breton is like comparing an apple to a helicopter.

qsnoopyjr · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

AD because.... Skyrim....

Skyrim made High Elves bad people.
In particular Aldmeri Dominion.

Of course the last game of the series will be the main predictor.

DC is of course the most good.

EP I like, I'm DC, but EP is Morrowind, best of series.
Dark Elves

The thing is... Morrowind Dark elves are huge difference than Oblivion Skyrim ESO dark elves. They look better in Morrowind.

To me Morrowind is like Quake
The feeling of the game, the looks, everything, has changed after Quake, after Morrowind. Those games will be and remain best in their series and its sad how the new developers dont even touch those games and go back.

Sure ESO has made ESO:Morrowind, but believe me... It aint Morrowind, not even close. I havent played it, but I ALREADY KNOW. These developers are predictable, and its in a negative way, the opposite way that I would like.
ESO:MORROWIND not even remotely close to having the nostalgia of ES3: Morrowind.

ofSunhold · August 2017

Enodoc wrote: »

SelfTherapy wrote: »

AD is obviously evil lore wise, claiming they brought back the two moons with forgotten magic, the Khajiit of Elsweyr then viewed the Aldmeri/Thalmor as their saviors. Never trust a elf.

@SelfTherapy You are considering the wrong Dominion. The Fourth Era Dominion is almost unequivocally evil, but Ayrenn's Dominion is nothing like that. Ayrenn clearly wants what's best for Tamriel (and I say this as a staunch believer that the Covenant has the best argument). The Fourth Era Dominion is much more akin to the Veiled Heritance than the original Dominion. (And I wish ZOS hadn't used the Thalmor faction name, and had created their own, to further distance it from the Dominions-to-be.)

But considering what we know of the Skyrim-era Thalmor, that's probably why they chose to use "Thalmor" - good associations from the previous dominion. They'd certainly be no fans of Ayrenn or her policies of governance.

Enslaved · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

max_only wrote: »

Pact Dunmer still keep slaves in Kragenmor. Khajiit slaves. Also Vivec drowned thousands of his own soldiers to defeat the Akiviri (Stonefalls quest).
Dunmer spread disease as a part of their warfare tactics (chemical weapons/Llodos plague). I've only ever come upon Dunmer scamming the poor out of their souls. State-sanctioned murder cult (as opposed to everyone-knows-the-secret "secret" Brotherhood). Not to mention the loudest of the Pact players (Nord and Dunmer) consistently representing themselves as rp-racist, rp-xenophobic, rp-bigots, etc. What would give people the idea that the Dunmer are villainous if they didn't present as sashholes in game?

The Pact's only saving grace are the self-sacrificing Argonians who uplift the whole mood of that alliance with their funny voices and genuine care of the world. Even their assassins are quirky-cute.

I agree, there is no justification for slavery. Period. And anyone who "rps" as slaver is an idiot.
But saying that Dunmer spread disease as a part of warfare tactics? Are you mad? Plague was released by mad cultists onto Dunmer, not on other alliances. And no matter what I think of Tribunal, they have dealt with that asap.
Also, Vivec drowned thousands of his own soldiers to repel Akaviri invasion? By your twisted logic, he should have sit idle while invaders conquer the lands of his people? What a brilliant logic, he should have had waited for invasion with slogans like "Akaviri welcome"...

If Tribunal were such merciless psychopaths as you would like everyone to believe, wouldn't they just, idk, burn both enemy capitals to the ground? Don't you see they always were in defensive wars only? Tribunal, with all their flaws are several times more just compared to filthy breton merchant and that 9th era spaceship. If not so, all races but dunmer would be erased from the existence.

And about in game (npc based) racism... Remind me what is the goal of 9/10 Altmers we encounter trough quests in AD zones? Racial supremacy, right? What about Bretons? How many times did they destroy Orsimer kingdoms?

And one more thing. Saddest part about slaver npcs is the fact that most of them are not Dunmer, but Khajiit (Renjira pirates) and even other Saxhleel, that hunted their own kind to put them into shackles of Dunmer lords. That is why I kill on sight every killable slaver I encounter in ESO.

ThePrinceOfBargains · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

None of them are "evil", but the most immoral is probably the Dominion. I mean the Bosmer were eating the Argonian's children in Shadowfen if I recall correctly.

Inhuman003 · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

Hands down it will always High Elves. High Elves always wants to dominate Tamriel for their own domain even through lore with each era.

MythicEmperor · August 2017

All of them for refusing to acknowledge House Telvanni's ancestral right to own slaves.

XxBradeyxX · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

We are like the only alliance that T bags each other when we die

hmsdragonfly · August 2017

Daggerfall Covenant - explain

TheMaster wrote: »

None of them are "evil", but the most immoral is probably the Dominion. I mean the Bosmer were eating the Argonian's children in Shadowfen if I recall correctly.

The Bosmer eat everyone, even themselves, so no hard feeling.

Inhuman003 wrote: »

Hands down it will always High Elves. High Elves always wants to dominate Tamriel for their own domain even through lore with each era.

Oh no, it's the freaking Imperial Empire that invades everyone in every era and makes them Imperial "provinces".

First, Second Dominions are both good:

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/First_Aldmeri_Dominion
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Aldmeri_Dominion

The Altmer form alliances with the Bosmer and Khajiit, they see their allies as equals and share the seats in the government with them, unlike the Imperials, to them, everything in Tamriel is an Imperial "province" under their rules.

Belyar · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

I like how half the people in the comment section have no idea what they are talking about.

Lusty · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

That shadowfen storyline made me sick after i played it the first time, it was probably also the reason i started hating AD with a passion because of it. The large amount of racism i've encountered while traveling through AD lands isn't helping the case either.

I am aware there's still some slavery things going in EP which is unfortunate cause i hate that too (i'm looking mostly at you house dres)

Dc? not sure, can't remember much aside from necromancy (which is a no-no)

Demycilian · August 2017

Ebonhart Pact - explain

Dunmer are fiendish slavers. Questing in their lands filled me with complete revulsion. The Nord, in turn, have lost all claims to honor by keeping allies of that sort. I deeply pity the Argonians for having to put up with these hypocrites and depraved degenerates.

For the Dominion, the only light in a very dark Tamriel

humpalicous · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

High Elves are known for being ruthless, condescending and somewhat racist. Skyrim portrayed this well, while in ESO they are just generic

Enodoc · August 2017

humpalicous wrote: »

High Elves are known for being ruthless, condescending and somewhat racist. Skyrim portrayed this well, while in ESO they are just generic

I think the Veiled Heritance fit the description of "ruthless, condescending and somewhat racist" rather well.

TazESO · August 2017

All,of them.

Jamascus · August 2017

Purple...

kichwas · August 2017

Linguistically speaking...

Covenant implies an agreement.
Pact implies an alliance.
Dominion implies conquest.

And it's an old staple of genre fiction that the bad guys are the Empire / Dominion and the good guys are the Alliance or a loose band of people agreeing to work for a common cause...

(history has often been the exact opposite...)

But I think we may all be "culturally hardwired" to judge these factions with the above linguistic biases...

bottleofsyrup · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

I don't really feel like one alliance is more evil than the other. Most of the war crimes committed against each other were by rogues not operating under their respective leader's orders (the Shadowfen questline, especially) and either worshiping Molag Bal or being manipulated by him as part of the Daedric Prince's plot to keep the Alliance War raging and the alliances pitted against each other.

In short, much of the conflict is just driven by agents of Molag Bal.

BrianDavion · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

kichwas wrote: »

Linguistically speaking...

Covenant implies an agreement.
Pact implies an alliance.
Dominion implies conquest.

And it's an old staple of genre fiction that the bad guys are the Empire / Dominion and the good guys are the Alliance or a loose band of people agreeing to work for a common cause...

(history has often been the exact opposite...)

But I think we may all be "culturally hardwired" to judge these factions with the above linguistic biases...

I'd not use the term Dominion as proof of evil in an argument given that the term Dominion has historiclly been used to apply to self governing colonies of the British Crown. when you realize real life examples of Dominions have included such agressive and hostile countries as Canada and Australia...

Don't get me wrong I FULLY agree that the Domion are the worst (their entire basis for orginization is Mer superiorty over man. none of the other alliances have that intrinsct racism built into their character) just I'd not sue their NAME as evidance

Doctordarkspawn · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

In order:

The inherent hypocracy in a queen that follows the reasons the Aldmeri hate men in their own mythos. To the Aldmeri, the races of men were not content with tamriel as it was created, and went to roam to the lands of Atmora and Yokuda. And they despise them for it. Ayrenn commits the same sin by doing whatever for how many years before the king dies, then coming back and taking the throne for herself.

Forcing her people into a war many of them flat out dont want for her own moral crusade by which she will crush those viewed as 'less civilized' toward what will likely be justified enslavement.

The whole 'Argonian egg' thing.

The Dominion are *** evil. The covenant is guilty of attempted *** and flat out raids and genocide, but the Altmer would justify attrocities likely up to wiping out certain races (I have no doubt the Aldmeri would give they're own attempt at wiping out the Orsimer, and then the dunmer.)

kichwas · August 2017

BrianDavion wrote: »

kichwas wrote: »

Linguistically speaking...

Covenant implies an agreement.
Pact implies an alliance.
Dominion implies conquest.

And it's an old staple of genre fiction that the bad guys are the Empire / Dominion and the good guys are the Alliance or a loose band of people agreeing to work for a common cause...

(history has often been the exact opposite...)

But I think we may all be "culturally hardwired" to judge these factions with the above linguistic biases...

I'd not use the term Dominion as proof of evil in an argument given that the term Dominion has historiclly been used to apply to self governing colonies of the British Crown. when you realize real life examples of Dominions have included such agressive and hostile countries as Canada and Australia...

My point was just in relation to genre fiction - something readily familiar for American readers/viewers.

And how that skews our perceptions.

I would wager 103% of Americans couldn't tell you whether Canada was to the east or west of the USA...

- let alone anything about it's government other than some of the lads knowing it's new president looks good in tight jeans.

The common ways we see words influences us more than people like to admit. Dominion not only implies conquest (which BTW, is the fact of every single part of the British Empire), but also Dominance... Two words very closely related.

Pact... can also work for family. That could also vibe as a 'mafia'.

And a Covenant... is akin to a contract, a protective clause in something. But some who don't know it's meaning might see 'coven' and think cults and conspiracies.

But I think a 'Dominion' is much more likely to have commonly negative word-associations, and lead people to prejudge it as 'the bad guys'.

As for the actual lore... I'm too new here to have an informed opinion... Which is what led me to the point I'm making. That just on reading them my 'gut reaction' pointed at one as 'the bad guys' but I'm smart enough to know I'm ignorant...

phermitgb · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

not that it matters a whole lot, but because you asked the question and I like to think about it...

I'm with most folk on this one - Aldmeri Dominion, as an ALLIANCE (not as represented by it's foremost leader) would strike me as having the greatest potential for evil...

first of all - each alliance looks significantly different whether you're playing IN the alliance itself, or if you're looking at the acts of the alliance from the perspective of one of the others - remember, when ESO first came out, each storyline was separated, and I'm pretty sure each storyline was intended to make you feel as if your alliance was the better of the 3 options while allowing for a certain degree of moral...ambiguity...within each alliance so that none of them were purely good/evil

so, I tend to judge each alliance from the perspective of being IN the alliance, not on how the alliance was portrayed as the enemy of the others...

DC - almost stock fantasy empire. Lots of internal threats, prominent citizens unhappy with the change to status quo, but the leaders are generally good, responsible people - I rather like the King, even if he is kinda old-man dottering sometimes, I love the redguard king and his family - and I appreciate the orcs and their culture - pound for pound, this is an alliance that HAS skeletons in it's closet, but most of it's primary leaders are usually portrayed as reasonable people trying to move forward toward cooperative unity

EP - little dicier. It's obvious that there's some strong...history here, and there are some very unwise military and political leaders, as well as the somewhat...mortal detached...living god things going on. Also, the general dunmer population is really...harsh - there's a lot of very mercenarial attitudes towards things - but, I don't see them as evil in the sense of being malicious - just, very harsh - very demanding, very unforgiving - I suppose you could call that evil, but I mostly just see it as being several steps below the current DC - whereas DC sees most of their bad blood as being several generations removed, EP feels like their bad blood ended just a few years ago, and theres still some hard feelings and resentments going on - hopefully, time and some effort will make the EP look more like the DC is now - a little scarred by their acrimonious pasts, but capable of moving forward...

AD are the ones that feel like they're most ready to slip BACKWARDS, not forwards. Ayerenn and her little circle of friends (and it's a very little circle)...

MINOR SPOILERS...

...are progressive people, but it turns out that Ayerenn is really fighting the overwhelming numbers of her own people. Pound for pound, Altmer just don't WANT to ally with lesser races - this is a prevailing feeling that you come across while you're playing the AD storyline again and again. To the point where mixing of the races and how they get treated isn't just a matter of personal preference, it is, to an extent, institutionalized. The first 3 zones of the AD storyline, iirc, are Ayrenn being betrayed again and again by her own inner circle - she's surrounded by people at the highest levels of power and influence that don't want peace and prosperity for all in the alliance. Ayrenn herself is a very progressive person, but most of her people aren't. I found the bosmer to be much less...hostile, and Khajit are pretty chill - it really is the ALTMER that seem to be the MOST likely to fall to evil, with dunmer following closely behind.

anyway, that's why AD seems most evil, although that's less a HOW THEY ARE NOW feeling to me so much as a WHICH IS MOST LIKELY TO BECOME EVIL or which would probably require the least amount of effort to TURN evil - something along those lines

Mayrael · August 2017

Aldmeri Dominion - explain

Come to the Dark Side...