About the Sorc Shield stacking issue...to the devs...

MasterSpatula · July 2017

Shields shouldn't stack.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why that isn't the beginning and end of this conversation.

Biro123 · July 2017

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Shields shouldn't stack.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why that isn't the beginning and end of this conversation.

Because it doesn't take into account the multitude of small shields in the game, like healing ward, DK's group shield, glyphs, shield procs from set bonuses(that are hardly used as is) etc.
The only way I could see this perhaps work is to classify each shields as being either a major or minor shields, and not let 2 major's stack etc. So you couldn't stack hardened/harness, but could stack harness/healing for example.

Feanor · July 2017

I just wish people would play a Sorc in noCP and see for themselves how totally overpowered that 6k shield is when you have 37k Magicka...

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

I just wish people would play a Sorc in noCP and see for themselves how totally overpowered that 6k shield is when you have 37k Magicka...

Indeed. But to be fair, no-cp performance doesn't really matter if you are in a cp campaign.

Feanor · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I just wish people would play a Sorc in noCP and see for themselves how totally overpowered that 6k shield is when you have 37k Magicka...

Indeed. But to be fair, no-cp performance doesn't really matter if you are in a cp campaign.

Many players aren't, and BGs are noCP as well. Just saying.

br0steen · July 2017

Wait what year is it???

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2017

Funny how often really bad arguments begin with, "I think everyone can agree..."

Leave sorc shields alone. If you stack 3 shields, you have approximately 3 seconds between stacks to try to DPS. which is a really small window. Half the time, you dont get your own Healing Ward anyway, and unlike the days of old, you can only keep this up for so long. Light armor sorcs drop like flies when their shields fall.

itscompton · July 2017

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

Feanor · July 2017

itscompton wrote: »

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

The difference is a Templar still has a reliable burst heal and class access to minor mending or the equivalent through the passives. A Sorc without shields has light armour and nothing else.

cellobuddy · July 2017

Sorcs are in a good place.
Wards: Their defense counters low base damage/high burst builds, but completely melts against hard hitting sustained damage. The time required to bar swap and cast a healing and another ward gives the opponent a reprieve from any pressure the sorc might be putting on them. With a 6 second duration, if they're using 3 wards, half the duration is gone before they can even start damaging. Not only that, but just as they finish their burst if they start imediately after their last ward the first ward is running out, and they're back to defense. It's a back and forth game that can be rewarding but takes a lot of concentration and drains resources quickly if built for high damage.
Damage: Their burst is deadly, but extremely predictable. You know exactly when it'll strike. Not only that, but the key part of the burst is chance based and dodgeable/blockable. Destro ult, which was referenced earlier, is equally powerful on every class and is only used by solo magsorcs that don't know what they're doing or a magsorc in a group, but at that point, the fact that they're a sorc has little to do with their usefulness.
Streak: Their escape is limited, exponentially costly depending on the enemy's persistance, and extremely vulnerable to gap-closers if the user is not skilled in LoSing. This can make very skilled LoSers very annoying as they'll use such tactics as their only escape. But using LoS is not solely for the sorcs. Literally every class has it's version. Ever seen one of those permadodging stam characters w/ eternal hunt? Can't kill anyone while they're dancing around a tree, but they sure can be a pain to kill, too. It's the same thing w/ a magsorc, except w/ multiple rocks and trees w/in streak distance of eachother.
Healing: The heal from power surge is a joke in PvP. Healing ward is only as effective as you are at keeping it unharmed. The twilight comes w/ a costly double bar requirement that is very prohibitive for most builds(also, the twilight can be burst down almost instantly by most builds). Dark exchange has a cast time, is interrupt-able, and costs precious stamina, which is a premium w/ all the snares and stuns.

TL;DR. Magsorc doesn't need a nerf.

brandonv516 · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

The difference is a Templar still has a reliable burst heal and class access to minor mending or the equivalent through the passives. A Sorc without shields has light armour and nothing else.

Pets that pressure.
A pet with a very nice burst heal.
Tons of cc.
A superb tool for mobility and escape.

Yep nothing else.

Waseem · July 2017

i play on sorc and its stupidly strong be it pvp or pve

Chadak · July 2017

brandonv516 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

The difference is a Templar still has a reliable burst heal and class access to minor mending or the equivalent through the passives. A Sorc without shields has light armour and nothing else.

Pets that pressure.
A pet with a very nice burst heal.
Tons of cc.
A superb tool for mobility and escape.

Yep nothing else.

Now put all of that on your bars and enjoy being unable to actually kill anything, because your 'pets that pressure' are taking up slots on both bars, your CC will be broken by your pets quite often and your tool for mobility/escape has an escalating cost if you use it more than once every few seconds.

You're going to have diddly squat for real damage and you'll be out of magicka most of the time. Have fun with that.

Feanor · July 2017

brandonv516 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

The difference is a Templar still has a reliable burst heal and class access to minor mending or the equivalent through the passives. A Sorc without shields has light armour and nothing else.

Pets that pressure.
A pet with a very nice burst heal.
Tons of cc.
A superb tool for mobility and escape.

Yep nothing else.

Not every Sorc wants to play a pet build, nor are they strong in open world PvP.
The tons of CC consist of the cost prohibitive Streak, the close range Encase, and Rune Prison which is only useful for ganking protection
The superb tool for mobility and escape only really works when you can LoS because otherwise it roots you in the direction you're streaking and makes the path totally predictable

Yep, nothing to write home about.

cellobuddy · July 2017

Chadak wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

The difference is a Templar still has a reliable burst heal and class access to minor mending or the equivalent through the passives. A Sorc without shields has light armour and nothing else.

Pets that pressure.
A pet with a very nice burst heal.
Tons of cc.
A superb tool for mobility and escape.

Yep nothing else.

Now put all of that on your bars and enjoy being unable to actually kill anything, because your 'pets that pressure' are taking up slots on both bars, your CC will be broken by your pets quite often and your tool for mobility/escape has an escalating cost if you use it more than once every few seconds.

You're going to have diddly squat for real damage and you'll be out of magicka most of the time. Have fun with that.

Also, pets don't break free from stun or dodgeroll out of roots. Their damage is minimal and based solely on max mag. If you're getting pressured by a pet, there's something wrong w/ you.

itscompton · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

The difference is a Templar still has a reliable burst heal and class access to minor mending or the equivalent through the passives. A Sorc without shields has light armour and nothing else.

Umm..streak to escape? Meanwhile the Templar has to stand it's ground spamming insanely expensive "burst heals" that can now barely stay ahead of the damage output of any decent Stam build rotation. And guess who's going to run out of resources first when the Stam build can weave in weapon attacks while you're stuck spamming a heal that costs around 10% of your magic to use each time. I laugh when I see Sorc's complain about the small window to attack after applying shields. Being forced to stay alive through healing leaves a Templar no window to turn and attack once on the defensive because the second you stop spamming healing you're going to melt.

Feanor · July 2017

itscompton wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

itscompton wrote: »

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Yeah taking away a Sorc's ability to stack shields would be like taking away Major Mending from Templars. Oh wait, they did that didn't they?

The difference is a Templar still has a reliable burst heal and class access to minor mending or the equivalent through the passives. A Sorc without shields has light armour and nothing else.

Umm..streak to escape? Meanwhile the Templar has to stand it's ground spamming insanely expensive "burst heals" that can now barely stay ahead of the damage output of any decent Stam build rotation. And guess who's going to run out of resources first when the Stam build can weave in weapon attacks while you're stuck spamming a heal that costs around 10% of your magic to use each time.

Glorious idea. As explained above, it works wonderful if you have a LoS object nearby. If not, not so much. And no, I don't think taking away major mending was a good idea either.

brandonv516 · July 2017

All I hear is whining about the idea of touching the one thing being used as a crutch when some people have no idea how to use the other tools at their disposal.

mb10 · August 2017

Sorcs that only know how to play the game on their easy mod class HATE these threads lmao

Ignore them, do something about this ridiculous shield stacking nonsense!

thankyourat · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I don't know if someone here said that but the whole "shield stacking" is not a problem here.

The problem is how this shields works. Those shield completely ignore critical dmg and penetration. If you have 10K health and additional + 20 / 25 K dmg shield then in order to even start dealing dmg to the health bar you need to deal 20 - 25K raw dmg without critical dmg and penetration. And you need to deal that dmg fast enough so sorcerer could not stack new shields.

I PvP this means that in order to achieve that you either have to have a proper gear sets (the one that deals oblivion dmg + oblivion dmg enchants) or just use a lot of proc-sets.... (and sometimes even that is not enough).

In PvE - I don't think that mobs deal critical dmg... so this crit-immunity seems useless.

The problem starts in PvP - because shields basically give you critical dmg immunity sorcerers can run all armour in divines and infused traits and still just totally ignore critical dmg.
Because of that sorcerer is the only class that can go full DPS build (glass cannon ?) and still be way more tanky....

No other class can do that.

Lol.

Don't take crit damage = true.

Ignores penetration = also true.

But ignoring penetration actually benefits the attacker because shields have no resistances. Let's make up an example..

Player is in heavy armour with 30k resists. You hit him with 15k penetration, so only 15k of his resists apply. If that hit was for a 10k tooltip, that means the player takes roughly 8k damage.

Now if that same player cast a shield, and the same attacker hit with the same ability, the shield doesn't have 30k resists. It has 0. So effectively you overpen the shield. It takes the full 10k damage.

I wish people would only call for nerfs to mechanics when they actually understood those mechanics.

@Biro123 the biggest part of this is shields ignore crit damage. In your example the heavy resist target would take 8k from a 10k hit but what if that hit was to crit. That 8k hit now becomes a 12k hit (even more with cp and crit modifiers). While the sorc is still taking 10k damage. Fights in PvP are won with crits and to completely negate them is really strong especially if you can stack two shields. If your attacks dont crit your opponent doesn't die. So even if shields have zero resit value it most cases it will still mitigate more damage than heavy armor. The positive about heavy armor is that it's always active while shields aren't, but if shields are active it's a 100% chance you aren't getting bursted down, heavy armor not so much

br0steen · August 2017

There's alot of people who get killed by sorcs in here lol

The nerf hammer has come down on sorcs many a time, and yet they somehow still come out on top. I remember a few patches where people thought the death of sorcs were upon us.

And yet, here we are

....while we're at it, buff stam sorcs plz

br0steen · August 2017

brandonv516 wrote: »

All I hear is whining about the idea of touching the one thing being used as a crutch when some people have no idea how to use the other tools at their disposal.

Excuse me, Sir? Hey, ok yea I'm sorry, this is the nerf sorcs thread, the nerf proc sets thread is next door.

Ihatenightblades · August 2017

Zoliru wrote: »

everyone can agree that shield stacking on sorc is a bit broken.... and needs some rework or nerfs..

BUT !!!!!!

if it gets nerfed the devs need to buff other defensives on sorcs or on the light armor.

right now only 2 classes can truly wield Light armor without getting instantly blown up...

Mag Sorcs and mag blades.....

the prob is a Mag Sorc that cant shield spam gets literaly instantly deleted if someone decides to jump on him....

if you nerf absorb stacking to the ground without compensation you could as well delete light armor from the PvP part of the game. because Sorcs prety much will be forced into heavy armor... like almost everyone lol

a Sorc HAS selfheals and nice mobility abilities... but that alone wont save them from the burst of the enemy. especialy with the ammount of numbers that is flying arround....

Shattering blows.

Vso · August 2017

Yep i agree nerf them into the ground

Feanor · August 2017

Try it. Play your EZ mode Sorc in noCP. Post the shield size and your Magicka pool and then your KDR. Zerging doesn't count.

Midori_Oku · August 2017

brandonv516 wrote: »

Sorcerer can be played with one dependable shield - I've had much success playing my Sorcerer this way in Cyrodiil since I created her (and she's not even my main).

Some people act like they can't live without that second shield. It needs to stop being used as a crutch. A change to stacking is a step in the right direction.

Agreed. Removing the shield stacking would be fine with me. I only use hardened ward in Cyrodiil anyway.

Biro123 · August 2017

Midori_Oku wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Sorcerer can be played with one dependable shield - I've had much success playing my Sorcerer this way in Cyrodiil since I created her (and she's not even my main).

Some people act like they can't live without that second shield. It needs to stop being used as a crutch. A change to stacking is a step in the right direction.

Agreed. Removing the shield stacking would be fine with me. I only use hardened ward in Cyrodiil anyway.

The biggest problem I have with one shield is how badly bar-swapping works when laggy - so quite often I *think* I've swapped (or at least I've told it to) but it hasn't. To mitigate this, I have my 2 shields bound to the same key on each bar - so no matter whether it has swapped or not, I get a shield when I need one. (and as a petsorc, I have to barswap a LOT) .

Its very rare I fully stack 2 shields. One usually just stacks on top of what little is left of the first - or stacks for a second or so as it is cast when the first is about to run out. I mean, I could get by with one - but to handle the above problem, I'd have to have the same shield slotted on both bars... lol, my bars would look like this.:

1. fury/frag/hardened/pet/inner light
2. curse/frag/hardened/pet/streak.

Lol - how much duplication?!

That's an oft under-appreciated benefit of stam-based defences (ie block/dodge). They don't take up a slot and are always available no matter what bar you are on.

RedFireDisco · August 2017

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

Dont know why shields are not crittable. They nerfed procs and more to come so it would be fair that should be crittable...

The shield size cannot crit either, unlike heals. If I'm running 50% spell crit my heals are effectively 25% stronger. This is in balance because the dmg dealer can crit for more dmg and the dmg taker can crit for more healing.

Damage shields cannot crit when you cast them, 25% value wasted compared to heals. Making dmg crit on shields that have no mitigation would make no sense.

If you want to crit on my shield, I want my shield to scale up with my spell crit or be able to crit when I cast it.

You cannot have your cake and eat it

But in fairness to damage shields not being able to crit, neither can armor which is ostensibly the same thing and you can crit against armor.

seedubsrun · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

But ignoring penetration actually benefits the attacker because shields have no resistances.

We all know how it works in practise... If you have a lot of penetration then you do more dmg to higher armoured targets.

So lets say that the target wears some light armour with only 10K resistance. I Have 10K penetration and I deal 4K dmg .
In this scenario armour is totally ignored because I had the same penetration as the target's armour value.

Lets now add some dmg shield.

I have 10K penetration but it does not matter because I will deal 4K dmg with or without penetration - because shields have no resistance. It acts like a dmg buffor. So penetration value does not count when it comes to attacking a dmg shield.
It is ignored until dmg shield will be gone.

So, if you don't have a lot of base dmg (let say 2K instead of 4K) but you compensate this with a high penetration build (lot of CP + some gear set that gives a lot of penetration + sharpened weapon and I have like 15K penetration instead of 10K ).
In the end you will do like 2K dmg instead of 4K against dmg shield....

Conclusion: If you have a build that relies of penetration & high crit chance in order to deal a lot of dmg - against dmg shield it will be useless.

Ah, so you do understand.. Your original comment makes it sound like shields take less damage than the person due to penetration - which is obviously not true.

But yeah, if you choose to focus on penetration and crit, you'll struggle vs shields. You dont have to build that way. That's why I prefer Julianos to spinners, and I strongly believe that different offensive stats should have different strengths/weaknesses to different defence mechanisms to foster build diversity.

Next patch, especially, with the trait changes, there will be less focus on penetration, and therefore more on base damage this is only gonna be stronger against shield users.

Thank you for saying this. One of the biggest reasons people complaining about shield stacking irritates me is because of this meta of building for penetration and crit. The way some players choose to build their characters is the main reason they can't take out shields. It's not sorcs problem really. I mean the shields are expensive and only last a few seconds and there's now a delay on conversion so if you have a build that focuses on high damage and you put the pressure on a shield stacker they have to choose between spamming shields and doing no damage or trying to burst and risk death. Equip an oblivion enchant and ignore the shields if you want too. That's even more of an option soon.

I main a sorc when I PvP. I only use 2 shields and I don't run Spinners anymore. I'm not the greatest but I'm not half bad and I get my @$$ kicked a lot but I also can take out players better than when I focused on crit and pen. My burst feels stronger and I can lay waste to shield stackers. i think people should wait for the next update, think out their builds, and try again before flooding the forums with more nerf sorcs threads

Rikkof · August 2017

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

Dont know why shields are not crittable. They nerfed procs and more to come so it would be fair that should be crittable...

The shield size cannot crit either, unlike heals. If I'm running 50% spell crit my heals are effectively 25% stronger. This is in balance because the dmg dealer can crit for more dmg and the dmg taker can crit for more healing.

Damage shields cannot crit when you cast them, 25% value wasted compared to heals. Making dmg crit on shields that have no mitigation would make no sense.

If you want to crit on my shield, I want my shield to scale up with my spell crit or be able to crit when I cast it.

You cannot have your cake and eat it

But in fairness to damage shields not being able to crit, neither can armor which is ostensibly the same thing and you can crit against armor.

magikal sorcerer has shields because he is wearing light armor
end thread\
shields are staying and are not critable