What are some reasons for making Mag Sorcs so OP ?

Waffennacht · July 2017

jaburns wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Despite not having a class spammable, sorcs have damage-increasing passives, including one thag increases weapon and spell damage with each sorc ability slotted. They have pets which do huge damage in pve. For pvp, they have a cheap and strong shield, high burst, and plenty of ways to get away (boundless storm+streak). Not to mention their executes. It seems Mage's Wrath/Endless Fury is not only cheaper but harder-hitting than other executes in-game. Also, the other passives such as 15% ultimate cost reduction, reduced cost of stam and magicka skills, magicka recovery, implosion, and whatnot all give them an edge over the other classes.

Every class has access to ult gain/ reduction

NBs have the potion passive
Temps have the ult reduction passive
DKs have an ult gain passive
Wardens have an ult gain passive
Sorcs have an ult cost reduction

Warden can stack more magicka w/passive heals
Healthplar can stack shields or big heals
NBs have cloak (Schrodinger's cloak lol)
DKs have massive DMG reduction
Sorcs have Hardened Ward

Warden and DK no Execute
NB weakish Execute
Stam - hardest hitting Execute
Templars great Execute

Stam NBs have the easiest and best burst in game

Mag Sorc has an easy to set up and easy to counter burst (purge)

I don't feel Sorcs are OP

@Waffennacht

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. When you're describing how the classes somewhat compare- quite literally, you mention Wardens and DKs having no execute and left out that Sorcs have two executes...

take my second execute and give me a spammable .

@Apherius

From the past two weeks of Cyrodiil, you'd think that most MagSorcs consider Mage's Fury as their "spammable".
(I know it's the new PVP players just trying to get that killing blow in.)

However, MagSorcs do have access to mag-based spammables through the Destro Staff abilities (ie Force Pulse). MagDKs have no access, whatsoever, to a mag-based execute through any weapon abilities, armor sets, or guild abilities. :'(

Why Oblivion damage should not be cut in half

Septimus_Magna · July 2017

First sorcs were OP because of Crit Surge, which got nerfed so many times it became good again. Then sorcs were OP because they had unlimited Streak and could run away. Streak got nerfed into oblivion. Then sorcs were OP because they could shield stack, shields durations were nerfed from 26 to 6 seconds and everyone got access to a skill like Hardened Ward. The duration caused most sorcs to only stack hardened + healing ward which any class can basically do with harness + healing ward.

The entire definition of the sorc class hinges on cfrags, curse and mages fury. Takes these skills away and the sorc class is just there for the passives..

LegacyDM · July 2017

Because @wrobel plays a sorc now. Remember when konkel mained a dk and they were retardedly op? Remember when nightblade was wrobels main back in 1.5 or so and it was OP? See a pattern here? Lead combat dev plays a main it becomes OP. That simple.

If you seen wrobel play he's not that good. He needs a handicap...

br0steen · July 2017

Someones salty they get killed by sorcs....

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

LegacyDM wrote: »

Because @wrobel plays a sorc now. Remember when konkel mained a dk and they were retardedly op? Remember when nightblade was wrobels main back in 1.5 or so and it was OP? See a pattern here? Lead combat dev plays a main it becomes OP. That simple.

If you seen wrobel play he's not that good. He needs a handicap...

You think it's bad intentions or it's more some kind of feeling he gets for that class he mains, with all its strengths and weaknesses? Assuming your insinuation is correct.

Erekon · July 2017

Shield stacking/spamming should be nerfed. Thats it. Nothing else. It's really difficult to kill a magsorc as a no-proc stamblade when you have to face a combo of streak + shield spam. If I make a single mistake, I'm dead. If they make a mistake, ha! no problem! shield.
Idk about PvE.

Adernath · July 2017

MasterSpatula · July 2017

The problem isn't MaSorc power. The problem is constant nerfs to everyone else. The other classes needed buffs, and ZOS keeps going the other way instead.

Quit grumping over how good others have it when the actual problem is how bad you have it. That cannot lead to positive results.

Nelson_Rebel · July 2017

Mag Sorcs are OP

Sorry this undeniable at this point in the game. Where we differ however is the cause of their Power and the resulting effect of it.

I believe I have Identified the three things that have created the over-Performance of the class compared to others

1.Sorc shields:

•Not only can you stack these to 30k plus shields, They also make you 100% immune to critical hits, because shields cannot be critically hit at all. I don't know if this is a "feature" or a bug. So I'll report it as a bug and see what answers I receive. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

But anyways this makes sorcs have the best defense in the game with Zero effort other than slotting it and activating it. So they are the only class that can spec for full damage and have it benefit their defense, this is because their Max Magic enhances their shield strength by scaling.

2. Implosion:

•Before the nerfs to the Champion points Passive effects, this passive ability in the sorc tree was actually very balanced as a free execution that would proc off of lightning damage. However sorcs ALSO have an active execute that will proc
implosion effectively stacking two seperate executes. One of which is free. And because of the increased damage we are taking now that free execute is hitting upwards of 6k in BG on full heavy armor tanks. Combined with the active execute and the already massive damage sorcs can dish out means you effectively have no chance to compete with their damage output.

3. Sorcs Mobility: Streak

•Personally this wasn't as a big of an issue but because of the above 2 reasons this one has been amplified because now not only do sorcs have the best defense and Offense (shields stacking, and free execute respectively) they now have the best means of moving around their targets and moving themselves in advantageous positions far more effectively than any other class with this skill. It also stuns with zero cap on how many it can stun.

This is all in regards to PvP. Now in PvE there is a whole other host of issues regarding pve Class balance. However for the sake of posterity, I'll keep this limited to PvP

A simple solution that would reduce the OPness of sorcs, in PvP WITHOUT hurting their damage in PvE would be two things

1. Make shields critable.
•This is only fair, being Immune to critial hits is already OP by itself, but with the absolute dominance of shields and stacking them it makes it almost impossible to kill a sorc 1v1 there is no balance here.

2.Reduce Implosions damage by 50%
•Having a free execute on top of an active execute that can proc Implosion as well is just stupid lol. It should be a nice-to-have execute not the main reason in a death recap for damage.

And that's pretty much it

Militan1404 · July 2017

Flaminir wrote: »

Mag Sorcs aren't op.
They have a niche where they are good, but every class has that.
Sorcs are the worst healers & worst tanks. They are good at DPS.
Nerf the DPS and they are back to 1.5 where they were useless at everything.

But their not, they are actually pretty good in both healing and tanking, not the best but defently not the worst

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

To answer your solutions

1) shields are critable and tho proc linked effects. They just don't take extra dmg. They also don't crit themselves and they are not affected by armor mitigation, therefore have 0 resist. The answer can't be to allow crit damage

Either change shield stacking or change how they are calculated. In No cp they are Fine. Either raise base strength and nerf the added strength through max mag or include spell dmg in the calculation.

Also mind that this Game is not balanced around 1v1. Shields loose value rapidly when there are more opponents, dodge and block does not. Don't forget that.

2. nah, just replace Implosion with something else. It stops the tears from recievers and grants sorcs something reliable.

This get tiring

Nelson_Rebel · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

To answer your solutions

1) shields are critable and tho proc linked effects. They just don't take extra dmg. They also don't crit themselves and they are not affected by armor mitigation, therefore have 0 resist. The answer can't be to allow crit damage

Either change shield stacking or change how they are calculated. In No cp they are Fine. Either raise base strength and nerf the added strength through max mag or include spell dmg in the calculation.

Also mind that this Game is not balanced around 1v1. Shields loose value rapidly when there are more opponents, dodge and block does not. Don't forget that.

2. nah, just replace Implosion with something else. It stops the tears from recievers and grants sorcs something reliable.

This get tiring

Shields cannot be criticality hit buddy.

Go test it lol

And everything loses value when facing multiple opponents, the difference is that Shields stacking almost REQUIRES multiple opponents in order to kill a sorc.

Don't forget that

Yes either amend implosion or change it. But either way it's overpowered

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Must have missed the line in where I wrote "they just don't take extra damage". See it as 100% crit resist or you want. But effects that need a crit still proc. Afaik.

No, not everything looses value. 1 frag or 10 frags - doesn't matter - one roll and all miss. But I give you that someone in the group will throw something undodgeable at you.

And for your assumption that it needs multiple guys to kill a sorc - I don't know. Either you are bad or you should look at sets like amberplasm which makes it nearly impossible to run them out of stamina. There lies the problem. But that isn't class specific.

Voxicity · July 2017

In my opinion damage is fine, they're a sorc/mage class so they deserve the damage.

However they should also be a glass cannon if going down the full damage route, which they certainly are not.

With amberplasm, resto ult and pretty mediocre shield stacking a magicka sorc can 'tank' more than a player in heavy armor and sword and board actually trying to tank. This is where it is fundamentally wrong. 1 class can't have the highest burst dmg, insane tankiness, great mobility/cc and an easy mode sustain (dark deal)

I have played around with magicka sorc in pvp not even running amberplasm or resto ult and I actually quit just because I felt so cheese and embarrassed. I couldn't even teabag someone without feeling physically sick about what I had just done with 0 effort.

Nelson_Rebel · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Must have missed the line in where I wrote "they just don't take extra damage". See it as 100% crit resist or you want. But effects that need a crit still proc. Afaik.

No, not everything looses value. 1 frag or 10 frags - doesn't matter - one roll and all miss. But I give you that someone in the group will throw something undodgeable at you.

And for your assumption that it needs multiple guys to kill a sorc - I don't know. Either you are bad or you should look at sets like amberplasm which makes it nearly impossible to run them out of stamina. There lies the problem. But that isn't class specific.

However you want to word it doesn't change that they are obscenly stronger than all other forms of defense. They need to be altered one way or another

Dodge chance is only a chance, and as you said, there are a plethora of un-dodgeable abilities and AoE's also cannot be dodged.

It depends, but it doesn't change that 9/10 times you'll need multiple people to get through sorc shields if they haven't already streaked away lol

Nelson_Rebel · July 2017

Voxicity wrote: »

In my opinion damage is fine, they're a sorc/mage class so they deserve the damage.

However they should also be a glass cannon if going down the full damage route, which they certainly are not.

With amberplasm, resto ult and pretty mediocre shield stacking a magicka sorc can 'tank' more than a player in heavy armor and sword and board actually trying to tank. This is where it is fundamentally wrong. 1 class can't have the highest burst dmg, insane tankiness, great mobility/cc and an easy mode sustain (dark deal)

I have played around with magicka sorc in pvp not even running amberplasm or resto ult and I actually quit just because I felt so cheese and embarrassed. I couldn't even teabag someone without feeling physically sick about what I had just done with 0 effort.

Exactly, herein lies the crux of the issue. Sorcs do not have to sacrifice anything for the damage they can output.

If any other class attempted this, they would easily die

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Voxicity wrote: »

In my opinion damage is fine, they're a sorc/mage class so they deserve the damage.

However they should also be a glass cannon if going down the full damage route, which they certainly are not.

With amberplasm, resto ult and pretty mediocre shield stacking a magicka sorc can 'tank' more than a player in heavy armor and sword and board actually trying to tank. This is where it is fundamentally wrong. 1 class can't have the highest burst dmg, insane tankiness, great mobility/cc and an easy mode sustain (dark deal)

I have played around with magicka sorc in pvp not even running amberplasm or resto ult and I actually quit just because I felt so cheese and embarrassed. I couldn't even teabag someone without feeling physically sick about what I had just done with 0 effort.

So you mentioned 3 issues. Amberplasm, resto ult and shield mechanics. Nothing that is sorc exclusive.
Everyone has access to that set. And I think it's horrible for pvp balance. Nerf sorc or amberplasm?
Everyone has access to resto ult. Heck, I even see stam builds use this. Nerf who?
Everyone has access to at least two shields. Like I mentioned above, issue is either the stack (I mostly run into hardened + healing since the cost increase) or how they are calculated. No offense but not only wards benefit from high resources which also boost offense. Healing does too. Just include spell dmg in the calc tho it's not as beneficial to get all into resources as it is now.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Must have missed the line in where I wrote "they just don't take extra damage". See it as 100% crit resist or you want. But effects that need a crit still proc. Afaik.

No, not everything looses value. 1 frag or 10 frags - doesn't matter - one roll and all miss. But I give you that someone in the group will throw something undodgeable at you.

And for your assumption that it needs multiple guys to kill a sorc - I don't know. Either you are bad or you should look at sets like amberplasm which makes it nearly impossible to run them out of stamina. There lies the problem. But that isn't class specific.

However you want to word it doesn't change that they are obscenly stronger than all other forms of defense. They need to be altered one way or another

Dodge chance is only a chance, and as you said, there are a plethora of un-dodgeable abilities and AoE's also cannot be dodged.

It depends, but it doesn't change that 9/10 times you'll need multiple people to get through sorc shields if they haven't already streaked away lol

In 1v1 maybe but not in bigger scale battles. How I would treat wards I mentioned above.

No, a dodge roll is not a chance. It's a reliable dodge against anything dodgeable. That medium armor sucks because of the increasing number of undodgeables is a well known fact. I feel it every time I pvp as I main a stamsorc. I feel forced to wear heavy.

Streak, streak, streak. It doesn't save you from
Ranged attacks. Also it takes two streaks to leave gap closer range.

SnubbS · July 2017

Critable shields would solve all this. My vote will always be to redesign shields from the ground up—but outside of that the only thing that's needed are shields which can be crit. No reason to nerf bastion, or reduce strength, or add any streak treatment.

Someone in this thread called for an Amberplasm nerf—are you mad?

Voxicity · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

In my opinion damage is fine, they're a sorc/mage class so they deserve the damage.

However they should also be a glass cannon if going down the full damage route, which they certainly are not.

With amberplasm, resto ult and pretty mediocre shield stacking a magicka sorc can 'tank' more than a player in heavy armor and sword and board actually trying to tank. This is where it is fundamentally wrong. 1 class can't have the highest burst dmg, insane tankiness, great mobility/cc and an easy mode sustain (dark deal)

I have played around with magicka sorc in pvp not even running amberplasm or resto ult and I actually quit just because I felt so cheese and embarrassed. I couldn't even teabag someone without feeling physically sick about what I had just done with 0 effort.

So you mentioned 3 issues. Amberplasm, resto ult and shield mechanics. Nothing that is sorc exclusive.
Everyone has access to that set. And I think it's horrible for pvp balance. Nerf sorc or amberplasm?
Everyone has access to resto ult. Heck, I even see stam builds use this. Nerf who?
Everyone has access to at least two shields. Like I mentioned above, issue is either the stack (I mostly run into hardened + healing since the cost increase) or how they are calculated. No offense but not only wards benefit from high resources which also boost offense. Healing does too. Just include spell dmg in the calc tho it's not as beneficial to get all into resources as it is now.

The way amberplasm, resto ult and shield mechanics synergize with the sorcer's passive skills and abilities is where the problem lies.

I also mentioned mobility (streak) and dark deal, but of course you wouldn't include those in your response because that's all anyone on these forums ever does. Picks and chooses the stuff that supports their argument.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Voxicity wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

In my opinion damage is fine, they're a sorc/mage class so they deserve the damage.

However they should also be a glass cannon if going down the full damage route, which they certainly are not.

With amberplasm, resto ult and pretty mediocre shield stacking a magicka sorc can 'tank' more than a player in heavy armor and sword and board actually trying to tank. This is where it is fundamentally wrong. 1 class can't have the highest burst dmg, insane tankiness, great mobility/cc and an easy mode sustain (dark deal)

I have played around with magicka sorc in pvp not even running amberplasm or resto ult and I actually quit just because I felt so cheese and embarrassed. I couldn't even teabag someone without feeling physically sick about what I had just done with 0 effort.

So you mentioned 3 issues. Amberplasm, resto ult and shield mechanics. Nothing that is sorc exclusive.
Everyone has access to that set. And I think it's horrible for pvp balance. Nerf sorc or amberplasm?
Everyone has access to resto ult. Heck, I even see stam builds use this. Nerf who?
Everyone has access to at least two shields. Like I mentioned above, issue is either the stack (I mostly run into hardened + healing since the cost increase) or how they are calculated. No offense but not only wards benefit from high resources which also boost offense. Healing does too. Just include spell dmg in the calc tho it's not as beneficial to get all into resources as it is now.

The way amberplasm, resto ult and shield mechanics synergize with the sorcer's passive skills and abilities is where the problem lies.

I also mentioned mobility (streak) and dark deal, but of course you wouldn't include those in your response because that's all anyone on these forums ever does. Picks and chooses the stuff that supports their argument.

Sry i skipped that. I have no personal agenda in that since i don't play a mag sorc anymore.

Ok, streak is besides dodge the only skill with a fatigue. It does not save you from ranged attacks, the cc is negated by block and it takes two to get out of gap closer range. I don't know what could or should be done about this. I think it's okay, especially if your sorc is specced into stam. But that doesn't matter in this discussion.

Dark conversion ( I guess you mean that) has a cast time increase so you can't do anything for 1.4 seconds. It becomes an issue if the mS invests in stam regen. But then he either trades something more useful for that or it's amberplasm again. Running out of stam is usually a death sentence in pvp. Especially when leaching the stam pool is the way to go against shield stackers of any class.

Can you tell me what exactly synergizes better with mS passives and skills from resto ult? Lower ult cost? Someone here listed exactly what other ult benefits the other classes have.
Shields, ok. Hardened ward is strong in cp land but nowhere else. Every class can stack 2+ shields.
Amberplasm is a strong set per se. Yes, it allows d/c "spam". So nerf dark conversion for every mS so it becomes borderline useless for anyone not wearing amber or adjust the set?

E: or is there a problem in general with stuff synergizing better with some classes that with others?

LadyNalcarya · July 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Must be just a coincidence VMOL etc runs in zone chat are looking for DPS, Mag Sorc only.

>vMoL
>Zone chat

Ok.

vpy · July 2017

ArchMikem · July 2017

PvE is all about dat AoE. Sorc has a Shock AoE. There's a Shock Staff. There's a Destro AoE that can give Shock Damage. The Destro Ult can also give Shock Damage. Even Lightning Form deals AoE Shock Damage on top of buffing your Resistances. Sorc has a passive bonus to Shock Damage.

The Sorc is a Lightning maniac.

Sorc also has a skill that heals you whenever you deal Crit Damage. If that Heals isn't enough in a pinch, you can throw up a Hardened Ward.

It's safe to assume the Sorc was meant to be the go to PvE class, alongside the Dragonknight and Templar, and then Nightblades were meant for PvP. With the way those classes play it just seems obvious that may have been the original intent.

Tan9oSuccka · July 2017

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Must be just a coincidence VMOL etc runs in zone chat are looking for DPS, Mag Sorc only.

>vMoL
>Zone chat

Ok.

Truth. Vet Raids, name is unimportant here. The fact is one performs better than others.

LadyNalcarya · July 2017

@Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Must be just a coincidence VMOL etc runs in zone chat are looking for DPS, Mag Sorc only.

>vMoL
>Zone chat

Ok.

Truth. Vet Raids, name is unimportant here. The fact is one performs better than others.

Then why theres no top leaderboard scores with 8 sorc dds?

Tan9oSuccka · July 2017

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

@Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Must be just a coincidence VMOL etc runs in zone chat are looking for DPS, Mag Sorc only.

>vMoL
>Zone chat

Ok.

Truth. Vet Raids, name is unimportant here. The fact is one performs better than others.

Then why theres no top leaderboard scores with 8 sorc dds?

I don't run them to be honest.

Anecdotal, I know. Just has to be a reason why I've seen that condition multiple times in zone for Vet raids.

"Looking for DPS, Vet raid ____, No Stam NB. Mag Sorc only."

LadyNalcarya · July 2017

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

@Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Must be just a coincidence VMOL etc runs in zone chat are looking for DPS, Mag Sorc only.

>vMoL
>Zone chat

Ok.

Truth. Vet Raids, name is unimportant here. The fact is one performs better than others.

Then why theres no top leaderboard scores with 8 sorc dds?

I don't run them to be honest.

Anecdotal, I know. Just has to be a reason why I've seen that condition multiple times in zone for Vet raids.

"Looking for DPS, Vet raid ____, No Stam NB. Mag Sorc only."

Sorc is super easy to play, even a bad player will probably be okayish on magicka sorc. Theyre the easiest class to solo content with or to farm vma, too.

Edit: and "stam nb in a pug group" these days most likely means "bow light attack spammer who dies all the time".

At least thats what I see if I use normal dungeon finder. Yes, even if they are cp160+.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

People pug vet trials?

LegacyDM · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Because @wrobel plays a sorc now. Remember when konkel mained a dk and they were retardedly op? Remember when nightblade was wrobels main back in 1.5 or so and it was OP? See a pattern here? Lead combat dev plays a main it becomes OP. That simple.

If you seen wrobel play he's not that good. He needs a handicap...

You think it's bad intentions or it's more some kind of feeling he gets for that class he mains, with all its strengths and weaknesses? Assuming your insinuation is correct.

There is absolutely no way a combat dev or lead in his case who plays the game for fun cannot be biased. The only way to have true balance would be to not allow the devs to play and only take feedback from the community, QA testers, and other sources.

What happens when this dev is playing during his off time on a weekend with his favorite toon and gets wrecked over and over again by a bunch of different stealthed nbs. Or he loses over and over again in 1v1s? He might think to himself hmmm nightblades over performing nerf! Or hmmm magicka sorc under performing must buff! And what happens if his skill level not good? His own personal experience plays into class balance. As customers we don't get that luxury, other than providing feedback which 9 times out of 10 is ignored because who are we to question the experience of a dev.

I don't think its purposful bad intentions I just don't think you can have 100% impartiality and the community suffers for it,