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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Balance patch incoming! Don't forget about bow!
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If you know what you are doing you can hit for 15-20k on players with snipe and have better escape and kiting potential then probably any other build. Being ranged is a huge advantage in PvP in nearly every situation, so what would be the point of playing melee if range could simply do the same damage?
That is bs, just read my above post.
Even with the highest damage setup, the most you can crit on someone with 0 resistances/CPs/armor is precisely 20 569.
And that requires 5x Hawk's Eye stacks & maximum range.
So tell me again how "you can hit for 15-20k" if you know what you're doing. The again, you could've just read my post above and I wouldn't have needed to repeat myself, once again.
And no, there is no "kiting potential" because people have these things called gap closers, snares & roots - the best you can do is crit someone for 7-8k with a Snipe and run away or hide. That's not kiting, you don't kill anyone doing so.
If you want kiting, play a magicka sorcerer - you get better defenses, better burst, better sustained damage, an actual ability that enables "kiting" with streak (and mines, which prevent mindless gap closer spam).
To answer your last question with another question, what is the point of playing magicka melee builds atm, if magicka ranged builds can do the same/more damage? What is the point of playing a melee stamina build, if magicka ranged builds can do the same/more damage?
I don't think your thought process got that far.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).
And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.
Doging is not a viable defence? You just need to know what to doge and what to block instead. Doge can be insanely strong if used correctly, especially at high range, since most dangerous undogeables are melee or short range.
You can't really use block as a medium armor user, not without committing resource seppuku.
It takes 17 280 stamina for instance to block a Soul Assault (which you have to block in squishy medium armor, or you die) for instance, and blocking pins you down (even slows your movement), meaning that everyone you were 1vX'ing will collapse on top of you & remove you from existence.
Other undodgeable ranged skills that are everywhere: jbeam, curse, birds, shalks, fossilize, meteorAnd high range is a huge advantage. You can out-range gapclosers and gapclosers also can't reach you on top of walls, rocks, etc. but you can simply shoot down. Not to mention popper group play, were your melees can completly keep the enemy off you while you can sit back and do damage as long as you stay out of gapcloser range.
Ambush can reach you on top of rocks, and people can just ignore/LoS/dodge your low bow damage - it's of no danger.
If you have melees in your group, they must be wondering why you're using bow when you could be helping the group much more by dealing some decent damage in melee as well.
The only times I've found bow a viable main weapon is when standing on a keep wall & light attacking+Assassin's Will people with Poisonous Serpent set (because obvious snipe is obvious and gets dodged).
Even that doesn't really kill anyone but the biggest noobs out there and you'd be better off dropping a Shadow Image, jumping down & melee comboing someone & porting back up before zerg notices.Edited by DDuke on July 29, 2017 1:54PM1 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This thread is officially full of lols
Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT1 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This thread is officially full of lols
That doesn't exactly articulate your thoughts on the discussion, but I do agree the state of mainhand bow is laughableEdited by Solariken on July 29, 2017 2:25PM3 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I know you meant well, but this thread got derailed with a certain someone going on and on about how Snipe should 1 shot people. Hard to take it seriously now.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I know you meant well, but this thread got derailed with a certain someone going on and on about how Snipe should 1 shot people. Hard to take it seriously now.
I think it got derailed by a certain someone coming here & trying to make the point that bow was somehow "over the top"Kilandros wrote:The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.
...and then failing to read what anyone wrote in response, including:DDuke wrote:Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.
Reading comprehension at its finest.
Let's be honest, you just think bow is "over the top" because they don't automatically die to your noob zerg due to being too far away, but ignore the fact that bow builds can't kill anyone even remotely good at this game alone without Xv1'ing.
The "risk" factor might be lower than it is for melee builds, but the "reward" factor is non-existent - which is why you see everyone running Viper Selene proc builds atm, not bow builds.
And I dare you to actually prove me wrong. It's easy to write "lol" when you have no data or arguments to back you up.Edited by DDuke on July 29, 2017 3:24PM2 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).
And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.
Doging is not a viable defence? You just need to know what to doge and what to block instead. Doge can be insanely strong if used correctly, especially at high range, since most dangerous undogeables are melee or short range.
And high range is a huge advantage. You can out-range gapclosers and gapclosers also can't reach you on top of walls, rocks, etc. but you can simply shoot down. Not to mention popper group play, were your melees can completly keep the enemy off you while you can sit back and do damage as long as you stay out of gapcloser range.
I'll throw my hat in on this.
Melee and bow both have access to dodge. It's not bow exclusive. The difference is if melee dodges and the person follows/catches up, they're in optimal range. Not so much with bow. Dodging is way too strong in this game, I'll agree. I think each attack during dodge roll should have a decreasing miss chance (100 on first, 90 on second etc) that happen within their dodge window. Back on topic:
Range is a huge advantage when you keep it. Did you know you get a massive snare while channeling snipe? You're not keeping range with a bow against an even semi competent player. I dunno what you mean you can't gap close onto a rock (you still fly like an eagle in this game, saw it all throughout the event). On a keep wall, you can snipe, for sure. Every melee in the game can also shoot silver shards, throw a flying dagger, or just poison inject and light attack instead. At least those will likely hit the target. And as for your "melee" group mates keeping pressure off you, I have two rebuttals.
1: if I see someone stay at the back of a group spamming snipe and poison inject, I'm grinning. Their buddies aren't paying attention to their rear, they're watching the enemies (why wouldn't they?). You'll die, and THEN they'll turn around. Yay?
2: Your snipes likely aren't going to even hit enemies unless you're in a field, and even then probably not. To get decent damage you have to be far back, so your attacks' travel times give enemies whole seconds to dodge entire chains of abilities. "I got three snipes lined up on... he roll doged my ally's attack, and thus my THREE attacks. Well this one's closer, maybe I can- what?! Oh, he moved behind a tree while I was charging my attack. F** this, I'm grabbing a two hander..."1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).
And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.
Doging is not a viable defence? You just need to know what to doge and what to block instead. Doge can be insanely strong if used correctly, especially at high range, since most dangerous undogeables are melee or short range.
And high range is a huge advantage. You can out-range gapclosers and gapclosers also can't reach you on top of walls, rocks, etc. but you can simply shoot down. Not to mention popper group play, were your melees can completly keep the enemy off you while you can sit back and do damage as long as you stay out of gapcloser range.
I'll throw my hat in on this.
Melee and bow both have access to dodge. It's not bow exclusive. The difference is if melee dodges and the person follows/catches up, they're in optimal range. Not so much with bow. Dodging is way too strong in this game, I'll agree. I think each attack during dodge roll should have a decreasing miss chance (100 on first, 90 on second etc) that happen within their dodge window. Back on topic:
Umm, how about no. I couldn't possibly disagree more with something.
Your proposal on decreasing miss chance could work, if it wasn't for things like:
Warden: Birds, Shalks, Swarm DoT Ticks, Soul Assaults, Northern Storm, Destro Ulti - pretty much all Warden damage besides light/heavy attacks is undodgeable. That's 95%~+ of their damage. Undodgeable.
Templar: Sweeps, Jbeam, Sun Fire DoT ticks, Purifying Light, Soul Assaults, Destro Ulti - pretty much all Templar damage besides light/heavy attacks & javelin is undodgeable. That's 90%+ of their damage.
Dragonknight: All DoT ticks, Fossilize, Talons, Leap, Destro Ulti, Skoria procs, Soul Assault, Meteor - almost everything except whip (granted, a significant portion of damage) & inferno is undodgeable, that's 60%+ of their damage.
Sorcerer: Curse, Wrath explosion, Soul Assault, Meteor, Atro attacks - basicly only pet attacks, frags & light attacks are dodgeable - so around 50% of their damage is undodgeable.
Nightblade: Soul Harvest, Soul Assault, Meteor, Soul Tether, Lotus Fan DoT & Cripple DoT ticks are undodgeable - but concealed weapon, strife & Assassin's Will can be dodged - so around 40%~ of magblade dmg can be dodged.
The only situation where dodge is really strong is if you're fighting a proc stamina build (or just anyone spamming snipe/wrecking blow) with likely Poison Injection as their only DoT - in those situations most damage is dodgeable, though Hurricane, Jabs & Birds will still hit you.
Sure, you can start blocking those things as well - but for example one Soul Assault drains 17,2k stamina from a medium armor user & still deals a minimum of 7-8k damage through the block & Vigor.
And you also can't dodge while blocking, so in case of a 1vX situations you'll now be taking all those Surprise Attacks & Incaps you were trying to avoid
Nor is infinite dodge rolling sustainable, as it's going to be costing 10k+/dodge (with 7x well-fitted & points in Tumbling) after 9-10 dodge rolls due to the stacking cost.
Dodge is not a strong defensive mechanic anymore & it needs to be buffed/changed significantly. It used to be good when most things in the game were dodgeable.
The only way your proposed gradually decreasing miss chance would work is if you could avoid everything by dodging, including Soul Assault, jbeam etc etc.
Dodge rolling being an unreliable defense plays a large part in why bow builds suck currently - one Curse+Wrath+Soul Assault & there's a dead bow user, or one completely out of stamina.Edited by DDuke on July 29, 2017 4:11PM4 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke (not quoting for sake of sparing a lot of text for those on mobile)
1- you have no comment to the on topic part of this? Okay.
2- listing destro ult and soul assault four times isn't quite fair, considering that you're breaking it down by class. If you mean usage? Maybe, but it paints a much broader picture than is true.
3- you have to hit with the dot in order to get the dot to tick through dodge, which is hard when you can't seem to hit a person. And tbh, a full health target might be taking -/+ 1k from my poison inject crits. Vigor out heals that.
4- radiant destruction does almost no damage at full health. Shales must face you. Curse is timed and can be purged (my templar loves salty tells about that one).
5- I'm fine with current setup in game, I'm just giving my opinion that I'd honestly rather not see a dodge roll somehow negate ten people throwing stuff at you. Mass doesn't disappear.
6- This is going to trigger you immensely: bow in PvP underperforming has absolutely nothing to do with roll dodge's strength: strong or weak.3 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmm, I haven't played bow for month now. However I recently got hit (multiple times) by 9k poison injections.
That is with resistance of 21k (unbuffed !) and CPs.
I know getting good dmg on bows isn't easy ... probably even harder with the morrowind patch, but it is possible!0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Elsterchen wrote: »Hmm, I haven't played bow for month now. However I recently got hit (multiple times) by 9k poison injections.
That is with resistance of 21k (unbuffed !) and CPs.
I know getting good dmg on bows isn't easy ... probably even harder with the morrowind patch, but it is possible!
Were you with any luck nearly dead? Because it is, you know, execute?
The damage from DOT is also counted together and displayed as one attack in death screen. Edited by SodanTok on July 29, 2017 5:28PM1 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I know you meant well, but this thread got derailed with a certain someone going on and on about how Snipe should 1 shot people. Hard to take it seriously now.
I think it got derailed by a certain someone coming here & trying to make the point that bow was somehow "over the top"Kilandros wrote:The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.
...and then failing to read what anyone wrote in response, including:DDuke wrote:Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.
Reading comprehension at its finest.
Let's be honest, you just think bow is "over the top" because they don't automatically die to your noob zerg due to being too far away, but ignore the fact that bow builds can't kill anyone even remotely good at this game alone without Xv1'ing.
The "risk" factor might be lower than it is for melee builds, but the "reward" factor is non-existent - which is why you see everyone running Viper Selene proc builds atm, not bow builds.
And I dare you to actually prove me wrong. It's easy to write "lol" when you have no data or arguments to back you up.
Impossible to take you seriously when the gist of your complaint is that:Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
Wait, what was that again? Oh you want to be able to just spam 1 ability from 40+ meters to one shot people?Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
When you aren't making ridiculous claims that bow builds are close to non-existent (again, lol) you're lashing out claiming that you were "farming" me the day even though I play on NA and it looks like you play on EU. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously? Why would I say anything other than "lol" when that's all your comments warrant?
Your entire argument is a big ball of lol. You want to be able to kill people from 40 meters without them having any time to react. Go play CoD. Please.Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a killInvictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I know you meant well, but this thread got derailed with a certain someone going on and on about how Snipe should 1 shot people. Hard to take it seriously now.
I think it got derailed by a certain someone coming here & trying to make the point that bow was somehow "over the top"Kilandros wrote:The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.
...and then failing to read what anyone wrote in response, including:DDuke wrote:Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.
Reading comprehension at its finest.
Let's be honest, you just think bow is "over the top" because they don't automatically die to your noob zerg due to being too far away, but ignore the fact that bow builds can't kill anyone even remotely good at this game alone without Xv1'ing.
The "risk" factor might be lower than it is for melee builds, but the "reward" factor is non-existent - which is why you see everyone running Viper Selene proc builds atm, not bow builds.
And I dare you to actually prove me wrong. It's easy to write "lol" when you have no data or arguments to back you up.
Impossible to take you seriously when the gist of your complaint is that:Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
Wait, what was that again? Oh you want to be able to just spam 1 ability from 40+ meters to one shot people?Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
When you aren't making ridiculous claims that bow builds are close to non-existent (again, lol) you're lashing out claiming that you were "farming" me the day even though I play on NA and it looks like you play on EU. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously? Why would I say anything other than "lol" when that's all your comments warrant?
Your entire argument is a big ball of lol. You want to be able to kill people from 40 meters without them having any time to react. Go play CoD. Please.Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
How do you come from statement of observation to statement of wish?
Snipe was good back when it guaranteed a one shot kill. That is a fact. It is not good now, because it does not oneshot anymore. Still following? Neither of those things mean it has to one shot again to be good.4 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I know you meant well, but this thread got derailed with a certain someone going on and on about how Snipe should 1 shot people. Hard to take it seriously now.
I think it got derailed by a certain someone coming here & trying to make the point that bow was somehow "over the top"Kilandros wrote:The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.
...and then failing to read what anyone wrote in response, including:DDuke wrote:Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.
Reading comprehension at its finest.
Let's be honest, you just think bow is "over the top" because they don't automatically die to your noob zerg due to being too far away, but ignore the fact that bow builds can't kill anyone even remotely good at this game alone without Xv1'ing.
The "risk" factor might be lower than it is for melee builds, but the "reward" factor is non-existent - which is why you see everyone running Viper Selene proc builds atm, not bow builds.
And I dare you to actually prove me wrong. It's easy to write "lol" when you have no data or arguments to back you up.
Impossible to take you seriously when the gist of your complaint is that:Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
Wait, what was that again? Oh you want to be able to just spam 1 ability from 40+ meters to one shot people?Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
When you aren't making ridiculous claims that bow builds are close to non-existent (again, lol) you're lashing out claiming that you were "farming" me the day even though I play on NA and it looks like you play on EU. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously? Why would I say anything other than "lol" when that's all your comments warrant?
Your entire argument is a big ball of lol. You want to be able to kill people from 40 meters without them having any time to react. Go play CoD. Please.Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
How do you come from statement of observation to statement of wish?
Snipe was good back when it guaranteed a one shot kill. That is a fact. It is not good now, because it does not oneshot anymore. Still following? Neither of those things mean it has to one shot again to be good.
Oh right, 10k Snipe crits from 40+ meters away. QQ. Why can't we have 20k Snipe crits. QQ.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I know you meant well, but this thread got derailed with a certain someone going on and on about how Snipe should 1 shot people. Hard to take it seriously now.
I think it got derailed by a certain someone coming here & trying to make the point that bow was somehow "over the top"Kilandros wrote:The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.
...and then failing to read what anyone wrote in response, including:DDuke wrote:Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.
Reading comprehension at its finest.
Let's be honest, you just think bow is "over the top" because they don't automatically die to your noob zerg due to being too far away, but ignore the fact that bow builds can't kill anyone even remotely good at this game alone without Xv1'ing.
The "risk" factor might be lower than it is for melee builds, but the "reward" factor is non-existent - which is why you see everyone running Viper Selene proc builds atm, not bow builds.
And I dare you to actually prove me wrong. It's easy to write "lol" when you have no data or arguments to back you up.
Impossible to take you seriously when the gist of your complaint is that:Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
Wait, what was that again? Oh you want to be able to just spam 1 ability from 40+ meters to one shot people?Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
When you aren't making ridiculous claims that bow builds are close to non-existent (again, lol) you're lashing out claiming that you were "farming" me the day even though I play on NA and it looks like you play on EU. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously? Why would I say anything other than "lol" when that's all your comments warrant?
Your entire argument is a big ball of lol. You want to be able to kill people from 40 meters without them having any time to react. Go play CoD. Please.Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill
How do you come from statement of observation to statement of wish?
Snipe was good back when it guaranteed a one shot kill. That is a fact. It is not good now, because it does not oneshot anymore. Still following? Neither of those things mean it has to one shot again to be good.
Oh right, 10k Snipe crits from 40+ meters away. QQ. Why can't we have 20k Snipe crits. QQ.
Why are you so dense? It is like you aren't capable of reading.3 -
eirinnpryderi✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
Khajiit Passive changes suggestion
From
Nimble
1 Increases your Health Recovery by 6% and Stamina Recovery by 3%.
2 Increases your Health Recovery by 13% and Stamina Recovery by 6%.
3 Increases your Health Recovery by 20% and Stamina Recovery by 10%.
To
Jode & Jone
1 Increases Max Stamina and Max Magicka by 1%
2 Increases Max Stamina and Max Magicka by 2%
3 Increases Max Stamina and Max Magicka by 3%
Carnage
From
1 Increases your Weapon Critical by 2%.
2 Increases your Weapon Critical by 5%.
3 Increases your Weapon Critical by 8%.
To
1 Increases your Weapon Critical by 1%.
2 Increases your Weapon Critical by 2.5%.
3 Increases your Weapon Critical by 4%.
Show Khajiits some love0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »@DDuke (not quoting for sake of sparing a lot of text for those on mobile)
1- you have no comment to the on topic part of this? Okay.
Oh, I think I've said all I need to say on the previous pages when it comes to bow directly - we might as well look at the things that indirectly make it less viable.DocFrost72 wrote: »2- listing destro ult and soul assault four times isn't quite fair, considering that you're breaking it down by class. If you mean usage? Maybe, but it paints a much broader picture than is true.
By usage, yes.
I mean, you could have 4/5 skills on a skill tree be dodgeable & one undodgeable, in the end it boils down whether people actually use that one skill that is undodgeable or the other 4 when they PvP.
This is why I don't list things like "Agony" or "Stonefist" - because they aren't used as much in the current meta.DocFrost72 wrote: »3- you have to hit with the dot in order to get the dot to tick through dodge, which is hard when you can't seem to hit a person. And tbh, a full health target might be taking -/+ 1k from my poison inject crits. Vigor out heals that.
Yes, that much is true - but those DoTs tend to get applied eventually (especially when you're discouraged from dodging by all the other undodgeable skills) and after that they put pressure on you on top of the undodgeable skills.
Vigor might outheal one poison injection (barely), but that's about it. With 3,9k weapon dmg & 33k stamina (much more than the common proc builds with Viper or Red Mountain), Vigor heals my stamblade in PvP for 1176/second & crits for 2094.
So yes, it might barely outheal Poison Injection, but add in just one more strong DoT & it won't be outhealing anything.
As a stamblade I've got cloak (when it works) to stop those DoTs, but other classes' stam builds aren't as lucky.DocFrost72 wrote: »4- radiant destruction does almost no damage at full health. Shales must face you. Curse is timed and can be purged (my templar loves salty tells about that one).
Keywords: at full health. Usually jbeam comes in after Soul Assault, or just when you're trying to dodge roll away from a zerg chasing you.
That's a valid point about purge though, but if you're fighting in CP environment you can actually put one point in Siphoner and practically reduce the effectiveness of Purge/Ritual by 50%, making them cleanse only one "real" debuff after cast (since Siphoner CP passive applies a weak debuff on target with every light/heavy attack).
Extended Ritual will still cleanse 4 though.DocFrost72 wrote: »5- I'm fine with current setup in game, I'm just giving my opinion that I'd honestly rather not see a dodge roll somehow negate ten people throwing stuff at you. Mass doesn't disappear.
I do agree it shouldn't negate everything, but it currently doesn't negate even one person throwing stuff at you most of the time. All it takes is one person to cast Soul Assault to either- Deal 30k damage (mitigation+vigor deducted) as the medium armor user keeps dodge rolling.
- Deal 15k damage (mitigation+vigor deducted) & drain 17,2k stamina as the medium armor user blocks it.
That is the problem, along with all the other undodgeable hard hitting abilities.DocFrost72 wrote: »6- This is going to trigger you immensely: bow in PvP underperforming has absolutely nothing to do with roll dodge's strength: strong or weak.
It doesn't tbh, I'm happy to explain things.
The reason I think bow underperforming has a lot to do with dodge roll is because bow users are mostly using medium armor & dodge roll a lot (if just for positioning/keeping distance, movement speed buff etc).
There are plenty of other, possibly more grave reasons for bow underperforming which I listed on the first page (I think), but the weakness of medium armor & dodge rolling definitely plays a part imho.Edited by DDuke on July 29, 2017 7:27PM0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's simpler: We all want to play Legolas/Hawkeye/Green Arrow and no skill in the bow line allow you to do that.
Let's take Magnum shot: great idea but poor implementation. Being a short range skill, it is very hard to control were are gonna end. A shot to a moving zerg can send you in middle of the zerg in certain situations.
Legolas??
Xvorg,
That reminds me though, I remember there used to be tons of "Legolas" character names back when the game launched - not so surprisingly they've all vanished over the years
Ok Katniss Everdeen xD
BTW, check this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon.
You say "bow is in a good place" and then shortly after contradict yourself with: "it will never work as a main weapon".
Pick one.
Also, if you consider bow to have "high burst damage" in PvP, I have a bridge to sell you.
Bow burst is 10-15k tops on a non-blocking squishy target currently, with DW & 2H you can deal more than twice that.
Not only that, bow burst is also impossible to land on a good player due to long travel time.
But hey, you might kill some afk siege potatoes with it.The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective.
No, the reason why stamina chars need to be melee in PvE/PvP is that they deal garbage damage with skills when on the bow bar. Bow actually has the strongest DoTs (PI & Endless Hail), which is precisely why in PvE you apply those & swap bar asap - because your other damage is not on par.
You can get the same DPS by spamming bow light attacks (with Poisonous Serpent set) than you do by doing Snipe->LA->Snipe->etc
Let that sink in for a minute as you realize how garbage skill Snipe is.If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again.
Why? If bow was a viable front bar weapon, you could use DW/2H for buffs (just like bow is mostly used at the moment). Rally, Deadly/Quick Cloak & class buffs still provide plenty of reason to use 2H/DW.
In fact, using 2H is almost mandatory for any stamina build besides Wardens for one simple reason: instant heal (Rally).In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon.
Poison Injection is useful, I wouldn't call it strong (it gets shuffled/dodged/purged far too often). Snipe is garbage.
The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).
And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.
Bow is not, I repeat, not a viable main weapon. A person who uses bow as main weapon is a walking AP piñata.
Just wtf.If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.
With bow, the only ones you can oneshot are afk siege potatoes. Or people who are getting Xv1'd.
Please show me one good bow build (not DW or 2H build with bow as off bar), a video, stream - whatever. I'll wait.
Wow, I just read this and here are the cliff's note:
1: Poison Injection "isn't strong" (lol)
2: Dodge Roll is a "useless defense mechanics" (LOLOL)
Hate it say it, but you need to L2P
TBH, debilitate DoT is stronger that Poison injection DoT. Poison injection turns stronger due to its execute behaviour, but you can easily negate it with a HoT/high regen.
Besides, the set that increases poison/disease dmg requires you to use magicka skills, while Sun's, Netch, Ysgramor and War Maiden don'tSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭What bow needs in PvP is a change to draining shot. The bar has so many dots that draining shot being a disorient instead of a stun hurts it a lot as a main hand. And my bear always takes players and NPC's out of it too. Very annoying.
What I would do to improve bow as a primary damage dealer in PvP is change draining shot to a stun.
If you are running bow/bow. You are gonna get smashed. You have no heal, low weapon damage (making vigor rubbish), and no real reliable stun.
I wouldn't buff bows weapon damage. But I would bump the *** out of the crit passive. Next patch you will get more crit from one crit bonus than is granted by that passive. It doesn't make sense.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.3 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭I see no substantial balance or combat changes (say to address the PVE exodous) in the upcoming content. There are so set changes (mostly aimed at PVP) but that is really all I see substantial in that direction. It is apparently still PVP's turn to get balance. I guess if we wait another 6 months it will be PVE's turn again and they will break all the PVP stuff and balance PVE.I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.
The main problem is the fact that a fair number of people have a on screen warning they are being shot at.
What type of game play is that... when you see people dodge rolling before you even hit them?
They´d be doing that regardless if the game was working properly (as in playing the destinct snipe soundcue).
You and other people are just too used to the game being a buggy mess that an addon providing the functionality is unfair for you.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.
The main problem is the fact that a fair number of people have a on screen warning they are being shot at.
What type of game play is that... when you see people dodge rolling before you even hit them?
They´d be doing that regardless if the game was working properly (as in playing the destinct snipe soundcue).
You and other people are just too used to the game being a buggy mess that an addon providing the functionality is unfair for you.
No sound cue on heavy attack, but the addon still tells you it is channelled at you. There is no debate it is unfair functionality.2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.
The main problem is the fact that a fair number of people have a on screen warning they are being shot at.
What type of game play is that... when you see people dodge rolling before you even hit them?
They´d be doing that regardless if the game was working properly (as in playing the destinct snipe soundcue).
You and other people are just too used to the game being a buggy mess that an addon providing the functionality is unfair for you.
No sound cue on heavy attack, but the addon still tells you it is channelled at you. There is no debate it is unfair functionality.
The debate is very much there. Why should you get a free stun and a guaranteed crit just because you attack from stealth? Isn't taking the opponent by surprise enough of an advantage?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Jake1576✭✭✭✭✭I've used nothing but the bow for a very long time. the problems I see it has right now in my opinion is that the ultimate cast time needs to be reduced so it shoots off faster it is to slow. but I like snipe having a 1.1 second cast time it gives me the opportunity to animation cancel other attacks within the snipe before it hits my target. draining shot needs to have it's range increased you got to get up in someone face just to be able to use it. the point of a bow is to fight at a distance not close range also make it something else besides a knock back and a heal. I see very few people ever even using it to be honest. and plz make bombard like it use to be where it imobilizes like it use to it's basically worthlessness now . i use to use it to stop ppl from running in keeps when the wall was down and ppl from above could pour oil on them as they ran in can't no longer tho.Edited by Jake1576 on August 3, 2017 5:20PM0
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.
The main problem is the fact that a fair number of people have a on screen warning they are being shot at.
What type of game play is that... when you see people dodge rolling before you even hit them?
They´d be doing that regardless if the game was working properly (as in playing the destinct snipe soundcue).
You and other people are just too used to the game being a buggy mess that an addon providing the functionality is unfair for you.
No sound cue on heavy attack, but the addon still tells you it is channelled at you. There is no debate it is unfair functionality.
The debate is very much there. Why should you get a free stun and a guaranteed crit just because you attack from stealth? Isn't taking the opponent by surprise enough of an advantage?
The stun is a downside, and one of the many reasons I rarely, if ever, engage from sneak anymore.
You generally don't want to start off your first GCD with a stun, especially when attacking from stealth - you want to deal damage and then CC opponent when there's a better chance at actually dealing enough dmg to kill the target.
Nor is a guaranteed crit on one attack (assuming the attack even lands) really going to help you in most scenarios, what matters is the maximum burst - as a ganker you're already assuming every hit has to crit and/or every proc has to proc if you want to instagib someone of consequence. Then it just becomes a matter of how much each crit crits for & how many procs you have.
I'd be happy to see both stun and guaranteed crit removed (along with the mostly instagib focused stealth gameplay), and some other kind of bonus added to engaging from stealth (and no, don't give me that "element of surprise" shite, it only matters against noobs).
For example, a strong bleed DoT would be welcome - even better would be having certain skills get special effects from sneak/stealth - currently we only have Surprise Attack off balance/stun as a "stealth skill", where other MMOs have entire skill bars dedicated for stealth gameplay.Edited by DDuke on August 3, 2017 6:50PM1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.
The main problem is the fact that a fair number of people have a on screen warning they are being shot at.
What type of game play is that... when you see people dodge rolling before you even hit them?
They´d be doing that regardless if the game was working properly (as in playing the destinct snipe soundcue).
You and other people are just too used to the game being a buggy mess that an addon providing the functionality is unfair for you.
No sound cue on heavy attack, but the addon still tells you it is channelled at you. There is no debate it is unfair functionality.
The debate is very much there. Why should you get a free stun and a guaranteed crit just because you attack from stealth? Isn't taking the opponent by surprise enough of an advantage?
What debate? I was never debating this and I have almost no problem removing that feature (tho bow should get ranged CC before that or it will kill snipe ganking like no nerf ever... and there were many).
I just want my *** resources back without someone dodging it even if I am in middle of 50 man zerg and he is in middle of 50 man zerg with his back turned.Edited by SodanTok on August 3, 2017 7:03PM0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.
The main problem is the fact that a fair number of people have a on screen warning they are being shot at.
What type of game play is that... when you see people dodge rolling before you even hit them?
They´d be doing that regardless if the game was working properly (as in playing the destinct snipe soundcue).
You and other people are just too used to the game being a buggy mess that an addon providing the functionality is unfair for you.
No sound cue on heavy attack, but the addon still tells you it is channelled at you. There is no debate it is unfair functionality.
The debate is very much there. Why should you get a free stun and a guaranteed crit just because you attack from stealth? Isn't taking the opponent by surprise enough of an advantage?
?
If you aren't getting a stun, and you aren't getting a crit, and you aren't even getting a hit.... What exactly is a surprise?
What is the "advantage" you speak of?
Templar's currently have a skill that is practically identical to Snipe with the only real disadvantage being a slightly smaller range. Dark Flare does more damage, applies Major Defile in an AOE so it cant be dodged, Empowers itself, with a meager cost increase.
Templar's can run this skill from any weapon bar, they also have access to a ranged knock down, and ranged execute that CANNOT be dodged. They literally can gank better than stam with Snipe in the majority of situations. This can be done with a back bar fully specced to turtle heal through multiple attackers.
Magicka complaining about Snipe is a horrible joke that keeps on running. Even more so in the current iterations of this game.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..3 -
Thelon✭✭✭✭✭
✭When you aren't making ridiculous claims that bow builds are close to non-existent (again, lol) you're lashing out claiming that you were "farming" me the day even though I play on NA and it looks like you play on EU. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously? Why would I say anything other than "lol" when that's all your comments warrant?
2