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• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 29, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – October 1, 8:00 UTC (4:00AM EDT) - 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
Custom Race Option
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Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.Edited by Iluvrien on July 13, 2017 1:41AM1 -
SFDB✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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...and what constitutes a "bad decision" is generally very subjective and argued over.Historical bad decisions in the game don't excuse continuing those bad decisions.
The general idea of "different races are -different- is something I consider a good decision. That an argonians amphibeous nature has some effect (and yeah, I really wish they let us dive so that argonians can make full use of it, or let us have better darklness system so khajiit have an advantage with their night vision, but alas...)
How those differences are represented on the other hand... well, that is something I'd be happy to argue over, since I think the current system is more on the "bad decision" side of things... I'd much prefer a different system that just makes it easier for one race to reach a "ceiling", rather then an percentual bonus that had a pretty hefty effect in the endgame thus feeding the FotM feelings...
The way they are represented - yeah, that could be argued for some, Others... not so much. I mean, sure you can train to endure cold, but it stands to reason that those people who have been living in winterland skyrim for untold generations -might- just have benefitted from a wee bit of natural selection in that direction, yes? And once you get to that, you think a bit and find that most of the other things also fall squarely in the matter of natural predisposition derived from millenia of natural selection and inborn (or in the case of altmer, in... bred...All the ESO passives are well within the realm of personal training and professional focus.
) talents passed down through generations... be it magical talent derived from "mystical elf blood" (they do claim the aedra as their ancestory after all) or merely generations of warrior-worship letting them spread their genes the widest... (note to self - insert joke about warrors playing with their swords too much here)
Bullsh... uhm... e-hem... that statement shows a blatant lack of knowledge of Elder scrolls lore.It's pretty silly for a Redguard to have bonus stamina as an ability if they're a spellcaster, for instance.
The elder scrolls games have always included something like "Redguards are the most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel." in their racial description, and that is what the racial passives represent,. NOT the career choice of swordswielder or spellcaster. (that would be more something akin the "cultural passives" I keep talking about, which I totally would love to see, obviously)
Sure, it might be silly from a purely game-mechanic point of view, which is why all the loreless gameplayers come up with stuff like "You -must- be an altmer for sorceror, or breton for templar, or bosmer/khajiit for nightblade," and so on, vexing people who just wanted to enjoy their dunmer nightblade, orc templar, argonian dragonknight, dunmer sorceror or imperial templar (any yeah, those are all some of mine), but for me, gameplay mechanics exist to portray the lore, not the other way around. (though as mentioned, the "how" of that is debatable)
And I say thee nay!I say scrap the whole thing going forward and let people have individualized backgrounds.
Oh, I am all for "individualized backgrounds" - that is why I keep spinning up ideas like "cultiral passives" and "birthplace passives".
As -addition- to the TES-lore-supporting racial passives.
But I am severaly opposed to any who would use that "individualized backgrounds" notion as flimsy excuse to cherry-pick their passives just because they are min-maxxing jer... uhm... persons I have a low opinion of.
Now, as I am saying, the -HOW- those racial distinctions should best be represented in the game, that is something discussable. Because I myself am not really happy with the way they give those huge percentile advantages in the endgame, and much preferred if they were done a different more closely balanced way. Maybe flat rate wise, that they might give a large leg up in the beginning, but become neglectible in the end. (especially if they revived some cap to attribute effects) Or something.
But that is a different discussion, this one was about people wanting to pick their passives for min-maxxing regardless of their "looks" race, have orcs with altmer passives and redguards with argonian passives and whatnot. And that is not something I want to see in the elder scrolls universe!3 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
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There is no mechanic/advantage in the game related to height. We all have the same size hitbox that you can see when you first load in (medium built human male). When height affects the game, (short characters swimming in puddles) I class it as a bug.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
Do it. No one is stopping you. Only end game competitive raiding guilds going for high scores will care.i want play khajit as mag user but...:(
On topic: if balanced properly I don't see why not, but knowing Zos there will be just 1 BIS choice and gtfo if you pick a quirky one.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom1 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS already did a most weird thing I've ever seen in MMOs - Cadwell's Silver quest. It breaks immersion a lot IMHO.
Please, don't ask them to break racial passives. I'm pretty sure that some day in the future you'll be asking for another lore changes. Maybe you'll need a playable daedra race or a dwemer steam powered motorcycle.
People in MMOs are always want to play as a clowns in a fantasy circus. It's an cancer of MMOs.One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b1 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?Edited by Iluvrien on July 13, 2017 9:32AM4 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
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There is no mechanic/advantage in the game related to height. We all have the same size hitbox that you can see when you first load in (medium built human male). When height affects the game, (short characters swimming in puddles) I class it as a bug.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
There is this mechanic in the game. It is the mechanic that prevents you from make 40m tall Altmer because no Altmer are that tall.0 -
SFDB✭✭✭✭✭
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
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Wait, what happens if you do a race change Imperial->Bosmer? Isn't that exactly what happens?I'd like to see a custom race option where I can choose the general appearance (among the current options) and then pick the racial skill set you want (among the current set options).
Please note, that the intent of this suggestion is for cosmetic purposes only. So for example, you could appear as an Imperial, but have Bosmer racial passives.
Will pay US dollars for this option. Any race, any alliance, any racial passives.
If you mean picking individual passives from multiple races, that won't work well based on current design as each race has some strong and some weak passives. They also stop being racial passives. Might as well just get rid of those passives instead at that point.
Base racial bonuses are a fraction of an individual's power, even for PCs.Edited by DaveMoeDee on July 13, 2017 3:13PM1 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This Shalidor mention is irrelevant. He is powerful because he is powerful. He may have less regen than some, if we take stat limits seriously (which we shouldn't unless we know that all NPC have PC obtainable builds), and even less magicka than some, but so what?
What is the relevance of the meta to historical characters in TES? Nothing.Edited by DaveMoeDee on July 13, 2017 3:12PM1 -
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.0 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.Edited by Iluvrien on July 13, 2017 3:32PM1 -
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?0 -
zergbase_ESO✭✭✭✭i want play khajit as mag user but...:(
Damn same here.... I want play khajiit Mag sorc... But due to morrowwind changes I went altmer for 10%mag 10% regen and 4% dmg....
This is not play how you want this is play how zos wants. There is no advantage to me having khajiit with altmer passives. Lore can eat fat one when it comes to gameplay.
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Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would break immersion which is a no no , but here's a secret if you if you make charter say bosmer then say high elf then it looks aweful similar to base race even as you move across the board
How? How will it break your immersion exactly? You are already fighting high elf warriors in auridon. Do you feel any difference between them and orc enemies in wrothgar? How exactly will the fact that other players enjoy playing the race they like the look of and playing the role they like while not gimping themselves will break your immersion?No, lore>cosmetics
Right. That's why we read this:Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present., and realize that it's possible to have, say, a breton who had a lot of redguards mixed in his breton blood line, so he can have redguard passives and look like a breton.
Or we read this:
And realize that racial traits can change while adapting to the environment, so we can play, say, a redguard whose family moved to Vvardenfel where it lived for generations (maybe even breeding with dunmer, too) and our redguard looks like a redguard but has dunmeri racial traits.The history of the land, of course, began long before the first year of the First Era. Before man or mer came to Valenwood, the forestland was a salmagundi of creatures and strange civilizations. Centaurs, hippogriffs, satyrs, minotaurs, giants, basilisks, fairy folk, hydra, and intelligent apes all flourished there before the first Aldmeri stepped onto its shores. Indeed, the first challenge for the early Aldmeri was to rise from prey to predator in the forest's intricate heirarchy [sic] of life.
As the Aldmer began to change their ways to match their new environment, adapting to the forest in body and mind, they became known as the Bosmer.
Or we remember how Dragon break, removing jungle from Cyrodiil by CHIM, then some nonsense how there never was a jungle, etc. were added to the game and understand that it's the lore that serves the game mechanics, not the game that's built around the lore. So, there can always be a reason, a new addition to the lore, so that whatever players want can be implemented and not cause any inconsistencies. Well, as shown above, there are at least 2 lore explanations already anyway.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
That means nothing. Why do you care what racial passives other players have/use? If they don't set their helmet to be off - you won't even know their race, unless they have a tail. What are you talking about - are you just one of those who don't care themselves but like that other players are "suffering"? I don't get it.TheShadowScout wrote: »The way they are represented - yeah, that could be argued for some, Others... not so much. I mean, sure you can train to endure cold, but it stands to reason that those people who have been living in winterland skyrim for untold generations -might- just have benefitted from a wee bit of natural selection in that direction, yes? And once you get to that, you think a bit and find that most of the other things also fall squarely in the matter of natural predisposition derived from millenia of natural selection and inborn (or in the case of altmer, in... bred... ) talents passed down through generations... be it magical talent derived from "mystical elf blood" (they do claim the aedra as their ancestory after all) or merely generations of warrior-worship letting them spread their genes the widest... (note to self - insert joke about warrors playing with their swords too much here)
Right, that's why I want to play a bosmer whose family lived in skyrim for generations. There's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to.TheShadowScout wrote: »But that is a different discussion, this one was about people wanting to pick their passives for min-maxxing regardless of their "looks" race, have orcs with altmer passives and redguards with argonian passives and whatnot. And that is not something I want to see in the elder scrolls universe!
Here you're making no sense. You don't "see" the opposite in the elder scrolls universe as well. You're fighting orc mages in wrothgar and don't see any difference between how hard they hit compared to altmer mages in Auridon. Same with orc and altmer warriors, or breton and redguard bandits. If I turn a helmet on - you won't be able what race my character is. So then, what is it about for you? You just want others to have less fun than they could? Because what they play definitely has no effect on your game experience. So then what is it? You want them to be forced to play something they don't entirely enjoy just because you enjoy being limited? I mean, if you want to make the choice between looks and passives - more power to you. But don't force others. If it was possible to customize races, you could still make your choice and make a classic combination, while others would have fun too. So, you are NOT losing anything, while others gain. It would be a win-win situation for everybody.
I for one enjoyed seeing a khajit mage in one of my trial groups. Then I met the same player again and he rerolled stamina on that character, because he was forced to, because he would never have a DPS he'd have as an altmer mage. Why should he be punished, why should his DPS be consistently lower thus driving him away from playing the way he wants?1 -
Chufu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭phaneub17_ESO wrote: »Ooh Ooh, I want a Tiger-Striped Argonian!
Or a furry argonian! Or a Breton with a tail! Or a tree climbing Nord and barbarian altmer! Ok this starts to sound like a result of an interracial party for adults
- @OrcTalk on Twitter
- ESO-Skillfactory.com[EN/DE/FR] Skillplanner/Skillplaner/Planificateur de compétences
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TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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...until we re-read this:And realize that racial traits can change while adapting to the environment, so we can play, say, a redguard whose family moved to Vvardenfel where it lived for generations (maybe even breeding with dunmer, too) and our redguard looks like a redguard but has dunmeri racial traits.
...and realize our crossbred character would -still- be the race of thjeir mothers, just with some -traces- as in cosmetic features, as in looks, orf their father present, and it wouldn't be a redguard with dunmer passives, but a dunmer with -some- redguardish looks, or a redguard with -some- dunmeri looks.Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.
Which totally should be possible by the way, allow players to purchase the option to use cross-race colorings in chargen (black haired altmer, dunmeri-red-eyed redguards, deeply tanned nords, etc. - come on ZOS, there are crowns to be spent on this )
Re-read what I wrote about "Birthplace passives"Right, that's why I want to play a bosmer whose family lived in skyrim for generations. There's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to.
I disagree that the skyrim bosner should have nord passives.
I agree that the skyrim bosmer should have -some- passive(s) that represent this background.
I would -love- to see a huge list of "birthplace" passives, one per region (either general geographic region, or even province... general geographic may be much easier to implement I am guessing) of tamriel, each giving some diversification for characters. Including a "skyrim-raised cold resistance" passive that everyone, even bosmer can take.
Just not "cherry pick your racial passives" package deals.
Same with cultural passives - as I kept ssaying, it would make total sense for me that a rich kid growing up with libraries and money for tutors might have a leg up in magical studies, while a farmboy who never even learned to read but was toughened up by working the fields in their youth might have an advantage in toughness instead.
And I totally would love to see that as another additional set of passives.
And if you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that I consider the -way- the current rules portray the racial differences with a big endgame bonus to this or that suboptimal, and would prefer if they were far less noticable in effect, at least for advanced characters.Here you're making no sense. You don't "see" the opposite in the elder scrolls universe as well. You're fighting orc mages in wrothgar and don't see any difference between how hard they hit compared to altmer mages in Auridon. Same with orc and altmer warriors, or breton and redguard bandits.
I'd much prefer it if there was a "ceiling" as to how "good" any character could be at something (cough, attribute softcaps, cough), and those who were racialls predisposed towards something just reached that ceiling earlier - but all others could catch up to the same level with just a little more effort (as it had been once upon a time in other TES games...)
But that is not the question here. This discussion is about people who want to look breton, but for some strange reason have the racial advantages of an amphibeous argonian (well, maybe not -quite- that combination, but you get the general idea), and that I would not want to see. Or hear about, know of, realize is possible, whatever semantics get the point across.
Why is it that you always seem to claim that you can only have fun if you get to cherry pick your passives for maximum min/maxxing your character? (since I remember us having the argument before)You just want others to have less fun than they could?
I think you are doing the fun thing wrong...
Again... I agree with you that this state is not a good thing.I for one enjoyed seeing a khajit mage in one of my trial groups. Then I met the same player again and he rerolled stamina on that character, because he was forced to, because he would never have a DPS he'd have as an altmer mage. Why should he be punished, why should his DPS be consistently lower thus driving him away from playing the way he wants?
I just disagree that throwing TES lore away and letting people cherry-pick their passives is the right solution.
Make a discussion about how the racial passives need to be reworked for less endgame impact to allow Khajiiti mages be as competetive as altmer mages, I will agree and applaud!
But claim that allow free -racial- passive selection is the answer, and I will oppose that notion.1 -
TrinityBreaker✭✭✭✭✭If this was a thing, I'd be a minotaur.Ebonheart for life.
Xbox NA
I am Dog Star.
Khajiit Stam Sorc - Ji'saad Ranajiradh AR 30
Khajiit Mag DK - Kesjhad
Khajiit Magblade - Ji'sava Ak'nir
Fat Khajiit Stamplar - Dro'haniAk'nir - AR 36
Khajiit Stam Dk - Diego Ri'jhad - AR 49
Khajiit Magplar - Dro'nara Ak'nir
Khajiit StamBlade - Ri'artharr Ak'nir
Fat Khajiit Stamden - Dro'hani Warbreaker
Argonian Stam DK - Tiberius Demetros
Khajiit Stamplar - Diëgo Ri'jhad
Fat Khajiit Stam DK - Drö'hani Ak'nir/Dances-With-Alkosh
Khajiit Magden - Arctic Mayhem0 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?Edited by Iluvrien on July 14, 2017 12:13AM1 -
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1. No we don't realize that, nowhere does it say about the traits being purely cosmetic.TheShadowScout wrote: »
...until we re-read this:And realize that racial traits can change while adapting to the environment, so we can play, say, a redguard whose family moved to Vvardenfel where it lived for generations (maybe even breeding with dunmer, too) and our redguard looks like a redguard but has dunmeri racial traits.
...and realize our crossbred character would -still- be the race of thjeir mothers, just with some -traces- as in cosmetic features, as in looks, orf their father present, and it wouldn't be a redguard with dunmer passives, but a dunmer with -some- redguardish looks, or a redguard with -some- dunmeri looks.Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.
2. Even if that's the case - good enough. It works for me. Ok then, we'll have a dunmer with dunmer passives but redguard looks. That's exactly the same principle and is what I meant.Right, that's why I want to play a bosmer whose family lived in skyrim for generations. There's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to.
3. You need to stop pushing your own idea. No one cares. Not important how they implement it as long as they do. That being said, your idea is good enough for me. All I want is either all races to be able to play all builds (maybe with some racial flavor, I dont' care, as long as things are more or less balanced like stamina races with each other, for example) or for racials to not matter in combat at the level cap OR even racials being active so players have an option to use that skill on their skill bar.TheShadowScout wrote: »Re-read what I wrote about "Birthplace passives"
I disagree that the skyrim bosner should have nord passives.
I agree that the skyrim bosmer should have -some- passive(s) that represent this background.
4. And let's say I disagree that he shouldn't, so? It doesn't matter what you or I agree with. The lore gives not one, but two plausible explanations of why a character can have nor passives but look like a bosmer. And they can always invent more stuff like they did in the past.
The first paragraph is absolutely unrelated to what I said. And what's the problem with people who want that? As I said, if they have their helmets on you won't know their races anyway. Why do you care what others play? Play what you like and let them play what they like. Not to mention, that's it's "some strange reason" - there are two plausible explanations of why it could be possible. In your particular example it's even easier. Swimming speed is something a breton could train to increase.TheShadowScout wrote: »And if you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that I consider the -way- the current rules portray the racial differences with a big endgame bonus to this or that suboptimal, and would prefer if they were far less noticable in effect, at least for advanced characters.
I'd much prefer it if there was a "ceiling" as to how "good" any character could be at something (cough, attribute softcaps, cough), and those who were racialls predisposed towards something just reached that ceiling earlier - but all others could catch up to the same level with just a little more effort (as it had been once upon a time in other TES games...)
But that is not the question here. This discussion is about people who want to look breton, but for some strange reason have the racial advantages of an amphibeous argonian (well, maybe not -quite- that combination, but you get the general idea), and that I would not want to see. Or hear about, know of, realize is possible, whatever semantics get the point across.
You are not in the position to tell me how to do a fun thing. Everyone should do whatever they want as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone. In this case, fun for me is playing the role I want efficiently and enjoying the looks of my character. In NO WAY it has any effect on your game and your way of having fun.TheShadowScout wrote: »Why is it that you always seem to claim that you can only have fun if you get to cherry pick your passives for maximum min/maxxing your character? (since I remember us having the argument before)
I think you are doing the fun thing wrong...
I'm not even talking about min/maxxing up to 0.1%, but I would be an idiot not to "minmax" up to ~1-10%. That's already somewhat noticeable. I do play end game content and I want my performance to be based on my skill , not on what I'd like my character to look like.
Why can't I play what I like and not gimp myself? How is that doing the fun thing wrong, can you explain? I mean, ESO is an MMO, so you are always competing with others.If someone pulls better numbers than you and a raid leader has to choose, he/she will probably take the other person. And I can't blame him/her, it's for the good of other 10 people too.TheShadowScout wrote: »Again... I agree with you that this state is not a good thing.
I just disagree that throwing TES lore away and letting people cherry-pick their passives is the right solution.
Make a discussion about how the racial passives need to be reworked for less endgame impact to allow Khajiiti mages be as competetive as altmer mages, I will agree and applaud!
But claim that allow free -racial- passive selection is the answer, and I will oppose that notion.
Wow that post was THAT long that you already forgot the beginning of it? No, it's not throwing TES lore away. There are 2 explanations already. There are multiple examples of people who showed that Nords can be great mages and argonians - great warriors.
No one cares how exactly it will be done and it's not our job to come up with alternatives. We just say that the current system is not enjoyable and point at the easiest way to fix it , that can be implemented right now. Like, in the next patch.
Free selection is BETTER than what we have right now period. Yes there are even better solutions that aren't only functional but are also interesting. But to begin with, a functional solution would be enough.
p.s. never did I say anything about cherry-picking. It's a satisfactory solution, though. Not the best one, but much better than what we have. What I'm arguing with is that dumb point that races must be restricted because lore and blahblahblah. No, that's false. There are 2 explanations in the lore already + examples of races excelling in things their current racial passives wouldn't let them excel at. My point is - no, altmer don't have to only have magicka passives etc.1 -
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And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
That means nothing. Why do you care what racial passives other players have/use? If they don't set their helmet to be off - you won't even know their race, unless they have a tail. What are you talking about - are you just one of those who don't care themselves but like that other players are "suffering"? I don't get it.
Playing with set racials is "suffering"? We have very different definitions of that word, I suspect.
If this game is going to continue to have the words "Elder Scrolls" in the title then there are some aspects of Lore/tropes that it needs to maintain. My own opinion is that this is one of them. That has nothing to do with other players suffering, that has to do with the nature of the game itself.
If they change the title of the game to "Generic Fantasy Online"? Excellent, all well and good. Change whatever you like and do whatever you wish.2 -
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✭✭✭✭✭OP... your argument was that even if your idea broke lore, it was already broken by "Any race, any alliance"... and numerous people have called you out on this and how ARAA doesn't break lore and is actually part of lore... and you've completely disregarded their comments and continued to make up new reasons why your idea would be fine, even if it breaks lore. Well, ESO and TES is based upon lore, so ZOS is not going to implement something just to give players more options... while at the same time completely breaking the lore the game's foundation is based upon. Granted, they have lately made lore a bit 'loose' with some of their implementations... mounts in particular... but it could definitely be explained from within lore. Your ideas could not.CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~1 -
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
I'm not asking for their justification, I'm asking for YOUR justification.0 -
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By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
I'm not asking for their justification, I'm asking for YOUR justification.
My justification is that they aren't the Vestige. I am.
Main Story quests are, if memory serves, solo instanced. Not only do I not have to interact with others during the events that comprise the Main Story, I don't even have to see others while they are doing them. Other quests often don't have this level of separation. As such, there aren't other Vestiges. There is only my character.
How is this different from the racial passives question? Glad you asked. In open world PvE, Dungeons, Trials and PvP my character can directly observe the power level and abilities of others (especially in cooperative content).
As such, the approach is different. The first is a case of having no evidence to the contrary, the second is directly ignoring evidence presented.1 -
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But you are deliberately excluding data in one case and including in another. You know that those other players are the Vestige, and are willing to ignore that, because it does not say "Vestige" on your screen. But you have nothing on your screen telling you that a character is of a certain power, you would need to have an addon to transmit fly text that states this, otherwise all you are seeing is a character killing a monster (the differences are numerically significant, but not so significant that an Altmer mage is downing bosses with two or three attacks by themselves). Isn't it more fair to other people to let them play what they want and turn off your addon, rather than demanding they adhere to your opinion on what their power level should be based solely on a cosmetic issue?
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
I'm not asking for their justification, I'm asking for YOUR justification.
My justification is that they aren't the Vestige. I am.
Main Story quests are, if memory serves, solo instanced. Not only do I not have to interact with others during the events that comprise the Main Story, I don't even have to see others while they are doing them. Other quests often don't have this level of separation. As such, there aren't other Vestiges. There is only my character.
How is this different from the racial passives question? Glad you asked. In open world PvE, Dungeons, Trials and PvP my character can directly observe the power level and abilities of others (especially in cooperative content).
As such, the approach is different. The first is a case of having no evidence to the contrary, the second is directly ignoring evidence presented.0 -
Ir0nB34r✭✭✭This would not make sense, lore-wise.
You say that 'Any Race, Any Alliance' doesn't either, but it does make sense. People, even in real life, immigrate to other areas and sometimes even join the military of those nations.
Someone else mentioned that they wanted to make a Nord mage. You CAN. You can make them a sorcerer. Will they be as great as a Breton? Probably not. Maybe a Stam Sorc Tank.
So, finally, its just a bad idea. Sorry, buddy.[XBOX][NA]
Breton | Sorcerer | Damage Dealer - Build Info (Coming Soon)
Breton | Warden | Healer - Build Info (Coming Soon)
Argonian | Dragon Knight | Tank - Build Info (Coming Soon)
(Retired)Breton | Sorcerer | Tank - Build Info (<< Link to Google Docs Page)"If you are quitting, can I have your stuff??"1 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
But you are deliberately excluding data in one case and including in another. You know that those other players are the Vestige, and are willing to ignore that, because it does not say "Vestige" on your screen. But you have nothing on your screen telling you that a character is of a certain power, you would need to have an addon to transmit fly text that states this, otherwise all you are seeing is a character killing a monster (the differences are numerically significant, but not so significant that an Altmer mage is downing bosses with two or three attacks by themselves). Isn't it more fair to other people to let them play what they want and turn off your addon, rather than demanding they adhere to your opinion on what their power level should be based solely on a cosmetic issue?
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
I'm not asking for their justification, I'm asking for YOUR justification.
My justification is that they aren't the Vestige. I am.
Main Story quests are, if memory serves, solo instanced. Not only do I not have to interact with others during the events that comprise the Main Story, I don't even have to see others while they are doing them. Other quests often don't have this level of separation. As such, there aren't other Vestiges. There is only my character.
How is this different from the racial passives question? Glad you asked. In open world PvE, Dungeons, Trials and PvP my character can directly observe the power level and abilities of others (especially in cooperative content).
As such, the approach is different. The first is a case of having no evidence to the contrary, the second is directly ignoring evidence presented.
I am excluding data? How do I know that other players are the Vestige? Just because a character tells me something, doesn't mean that my own has to believe it. Mai'q the Liar tells us that:
"M'aiq was one of the Six Companions, but was asked to leave. Another was jealous of his whiskers."
Are we required to believe him? I am not choosing to exclude this data. I am choosing not to include it, because my character doesn't have sufficient evidence to persuade him of the contrary position.
If the impact of racial bonuses is so subtle, then why the need to choose different ones? Is it not that either the impact is siginifcant (hence this thread), and so the difference would be externally observable. This would make the Argonian with Altmer passives stand out enough to be a problem. Or, the impact isn't significant and so isn't observable, on which basis why do comptetive content groups care?
I am not sure that you can have it both ways.
The racial passive to racial appearance link is not "solely [on] a cosmetic issue". As I previously stated, the fact that racial passives are tied to a race is as a mechanical implementation of that racial identity. The passives are part of looking like a Dunmer, not a random addition to it.
Now, if people were to suggest that combat passives should be decreased in impact in endgame/PvP content (with a battle spirit-esqe effect), or even changed so that they were flavourful without impacting on balance? That I could accept. I would hate it, but I could accept it. It is the decoupling of passives from racial choice that I am against.0
