Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
...and what constitutes a "bad decision" is generally very subjective and argued over.Historical bad decisions in the game don't excuse continuing those bad decisions.
The way they are represented - yeah, that could be argued for some, Others... not so much. I mean, sure you can train to endure cold, but it stands to reason that those people who have been living in winterland skyrim for untold generations -might- just have benefitted from a wee bit of natural selection in that direction, yes? And once you get to that, you think a bit and find that most of the other things also fall squarely in the matter of natural predisposition derived from millenia of natural selection and inborn (or in the case of altmer, in... bred...All the ESO passives are well within the realm of personal training and professional focus.
Bullsh... uhm... e-hem... that statement shows a blatant lack of knowledge of Elder scrolls lore.It's pretty silly for a Redguard to have bonus stamina as an ability if they're a spellcaster, for instance.
And I say thee nay!I say scrap the whole thing going forward and let people have individualized backgrounds.
There is no mechanic/advantage in the game related to height. We all have the same size hitbox that you can see when you first load in (medium built human male). When height affects the game, (short characters swimming in puddles) I class it as a bug.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
Do it. No one is stopping you. Only end game competitive raiding guilds going for high scores will care.i want play khajit as mag user but...:(
Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
There is no mechanic/advantage in the game related to height. We all have the same size hitbox that you can see when you first load in (medium built human male). When height affects the game, (short characters swimming in puddles) I class it as a bug.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
Wait, what happens if you do a race change Imperial->Bosmer? Isn't that exactly what happens?I'd like to see a custom race option where I can choose the general appearance (among the current options) and then pick the racial skill set you want (among the current set options).
Please note, that the intent of this suggestion is for cosmetic purposes only. So for example, you could appear as an Imperial, but have Bosmer racial passives.
Will pay US dollars for this option. Any race, any alliance, any racial passives.
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
i want play khajit as mag user but...:(
It would break immersion which is a no no , but here's a secret if you if you make charter say bosmer then say high elf then it looks aweful similar to base race even as you move across the board
No, lore>cosmetics
Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present., and realize that it's possible to have, say, a breton who had a lot of redguards mixed in his breton blood line, so he can have redguard passives and look like a breton.
And realize that racial traits can change while adapting to the environment, so we can play, say, a redguard whose family moved to Vvardenfel where it lived for generations (maybe even breeding with dunmer, too) and our redguard looks like a redguard but has dunmeri racial traits.The history of the land, of course, began long before the first year of the First Era. Before man or mer came to Valenwood, the forestland was a salmagundi of creatures and strange civilizations. Centaurs, hippogriffs, satyrs, minotaurs, giants, basilisks, fairy folk, hydra, and intelligent apes all flourished there before the first Aldmeri stepped onto its shores. Indeed, the first challenge for the early Aldmeri was to rise from prey to predator in the forest's intricate heirarchy [sic] of life.
As the Aldmer began to change their ways to match their new environment, adapting to the forest in body and mind, they became known as the Bosmer.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
TheShadowScout wrote: »The way they are represented - yeah, that could be argued for some, Others... not so much. I mean, sure you can train to endure cold, but it stands to reason that those people who have been living in winterland skyrim for untold generations -might- just have benefitted from a wee bit of natural selection in that direction, yes? And once you get to that, you think a bit and find that most of the other things also fall squarely in the matter of natural predisposition derived from millenia of natural selection and inborn (or in the case of altmer, in... bred...) talents passed down through generations... be it magical talent derived from "mystical elf blood" (they do claim the aedra as their ancestory after all) or merely generations of warrior-worship letting them spread their genes the widest... (note to self - insert joke about warrors playing with their swords too much here)
TheShadowScout wrote: »But that is a different discussion, this one was about people wanting to pick their passives for min-maxxing regardless of their "looks" race, have orcs with altmer passives and redguards with argonian passives and whatnot. And that is not something I want to see in the elder scrolls universe!
phaneub17_ESO wrote: »Ooh Ooh, I want a Tiger-Striped Argonian!
Or a furry argonian! Or a Breton with a tail! Or a tree climbing Nord and barbarian altmer! Ok this starts to sound like a result of an interracial party for adults
...until we re-read this:And realize that racial traits can change while adapting to the environment, so we can play, say, a redguard whose family moved to Vvardenfel where it lived for generations (maybe even breeding with dunmer, too) and our redguard looks like a redguard but has dunmeri racial traits.
...and realize our crossbred character would -still- be the race of thjeir mothers, just with some -traces- as in cosmetic features, as in looks, orf their father present, and it wouldn't be a redguard with dunmer passives, but a dunmer with -some- redguardish looks, or a redguard with -some- dunmeri looks.Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.
Re-read what I wrote about "Birthplace passives"Right, that's why I want to play a bosmer whose family lived in skyrim for generations. There's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to.
And if you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that I consider the -way- the current rules portray the racial differences with a big endgame bonus to this or that suboptimal, and would prefer if they were far less noticable in effect, at least for advanced characters.Here you're making no sense. You don't "see" the opposite in the elder scrolls universe as well. You're fighting orc mages in wrothgar and don't see any difference between how hard they hit compared to altmer mages in Auridon. Same with orc and altmer warriors, or breton and redguard bandits.
Why is it that you always seem to claim that you can only have fun if you get to cherry pick your passives for maximum min/maxxing your character? (since I remember us having the argument before)You just want others to have less fun than they could?
Again... I agree with you that this state is not a good thing.I for one enjoyed seeing a khajit mage in one of my trial groups. Then I met the same player again and he rerolled stamina on that character, because he was forced to, because he would never have a DPS he'd have as an altmer mage. Why should he be punished, why should his DPS be consistently lower thus driving him away from playing the way he wants?
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
1. No we don't realize that, nowhere does it say about the traits being purely cosmetic.TheShadowScout wrote: »...until we re-read this:And realize that racial traits can change while adapting to the environment, so we can play, say, a redguard whose family moved to Vvardenfel where it lived for generations (maybe even breeding with dunmer, too) and our redguard looks like a redguard but has dunmeri racial traits....and realize our crossbred character would -still- be the race of thjeir mothers, just with some -traces- as in cosmetic features, as in looks, orf their father present, and it wouldn't be a redguard with dunmer passives, but a dunmer with -some- redguardish looks, or a redguard with -some- dunmeri looks.Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.
Right, that's why I want to play a bosmer whose family lived in skyrim for generations. There's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to.
3. You need to stop pushing your own idea. No one cares. Not important how they implement it as long as they do. That being said, your idea is good enough for me. All I want is either all races to be able to play all builds (maybe with some racial flavor, I dont' care, as long as things are more or less balanced like stamina races with each other, for example) or for racials to not matter in combat at the level cap OR even racials being active so players have an option to use that skill on their skill bar.TheShadowScout wrote: »Re-read what I wrote about "Birthplace passives"
I disagree that the skyrim bosner should have nord passives.
I agree that the skyrim bosmer should have -some- passive(s) that represent this background.
The first paragraph is absolutely unrelated to what I said. And what's the problem with people who want that? As I said, if they have their helmets on you won't know their races anyway. Why do you care what others play? Play what you like and let them play what they like. Not to mention, that's it's "some strange reason" - there are two plausible explanations of why it could be possible. In your particular example it's even easier. Swimming speed is something a breton could train to increase.TheShadowScout wrote: »And if you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that I consider the -way- the current rules portray the racial differences with a big endgame bonus to this or that suboptimal, and would prefer if they were far less noticable in effect, at least for advanced characters.
I'd much prefer it if there was a "ceiling" as to how "good" any character could be at something (cough, attribute softcaps, cough), and those who were racialls predisposed towards something just reached that ceiling earlier - but all others could catch up to the same level with just a little more effort (as it had been once upon a time in other TES games...)
But that is not the question here. This discussion is about people who want to look breton, but for some strange reason have the racial advantages of an amphibeous argonian (well, maybe not -quite- that combination, but you get the general idea), and that I would not want to see. Or hear about, know of, realize is possible, whatever semantics get the point across.
You are not in the position to tell me how to do a fun thing. Everyone should do whatever they want as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone. In this case, fun for me is playing the role I want efficiently and enjoying the looks of my character. In NO WAY it has any effect on your game and your way of having fun.TheShadowScout wrote: »Why is it that you always seem to claim that you can only have fun if you get to cherry pick your passives for maximum min/maxxing your character? (since I remember us having the argument before)
I think you are doing the fun thing wrong...
TheShadowScout wrote: »Again... I agree with you that this state is not a good thing.
I just disagree that throwing TES lore away and letting people cherry-pick their passives is the right solution.
Make a discussion about how the racial passives need to be reworked for less endgame impact to allow Khajiiti mages be as competetive as altmer mages, I will agree and applaud!
But claim that allow free -racial- passive selection is the answer, and I will oppose that notion.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
That means nothing. Why do you care what racial passives other players have/use? If they don't set their helmet to be off - you won't even know their race, unless they have a tail. What are you talking about - are you just one of those who don't care themselves but like that other players are "suffering"? I don't get it.
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
I'm not asking for their justification, I'm asking for YOUR justification.
But you are deliberately excluding data in one case and including in another. You know that those other players are the Vestige, and are willing to ignore that, because it does not say "Vestige" on your screen. But you have nothing on your screen telling you that a character is of a certain power, you would need to have an addon to transmit fly text that states this, otherwise all you are seeing is a character killing a monster (the differences are numerically significant, but not so significant that an Altmer mage is downing bosses with two or three attacks by themselves). Isn't it more fair to other people to let them play what they want and turn off your addon, rather than demanding they adhere to your opinion on what their power level should be based solely on a cosmetic issue?By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
I'm not asking for their justification, I'm asking for YOUR justification.
My justification is that they aren't the Vestige. I am.
Main Story quests are, if memory serves, solo instanced. Not only do I not have to interact with others during the events that comprise the Main Story, I don't even have to see others while they are doing them. Other quests often don't have this level of separation. As such, there aren't other Vestiges. There is only my character.
How is this different from the racial passives question? Glad you asked. In open world PvE, Dungeons, Trials and PvP my character can directly observe the power level and abilities of others (especially in cooperative content).
As such, the approach is different. The first is a case of having no evidence to the contrary, the second is directly ignoring evidence presented.
"If you are quitting, can I have your stuff??"
But you are deliberately excluding data in one case and including in another. You know that those other players are the Vestige, and are willing to ignore that, because it does not say "Vestige" on your screen. But you have nothing on your screen telling you that a character is of a certain power, you would need to have an addon to transmit fly text that states this, otherwise all you are seeing is a character killing a monster (the differences are numerically significant, but not so significant that an Altmer mage is downing bosses with two or three attacks by themselves). Isn't it more fair to other people to let them play what they want and turn off your addon, rather than demanding they adhere to your opinion on what their power level should be based solely on a cosmetic issue?By that logic, we should eliminate all racial passives, because the issue remains even with the current racial passive system in place.Darth_Trumpious wrote: »
Shalidor is powerful because he is Shalidor, it has nothing to do with his race. A player can be a powerful mage but it relies on his skill, not his race. There are dumb Altmer mages too both in lore and in the game
But that's precisely the point: if being a powerful mage has nothing to do with his race, then logically there's no reason to insist that magic boosting passives MUST be tied to race.
The reason that Shalidor's name is recognised is because he was special, different.
We, the players, outnumber the NPCs on the servers. If we decouple passives from race then it suggests that what is happening is not that we are standing out as special... it is that racials have nothing to do with race.
No, and more no.
The Vestige IS special. The Vestige is important enough to draw the interest of multiple Daedric princes, to topple Molag Bal and end the Planemeld, to be inducted into the unique rank of the five companions. The Lore vehemently supports the Vestige being special. If the reason the Lore allows Shalidor to have magical abilities that few of any race or time can match is that he's special, and the Vestige is just as special (if not moreso), then logically the Vestige should be allowed to do the same. To not is to violate lore.
And if this was a single-player game then this would indeed be an excellent point. The fact that this is a multiplayer game means that you have, in evidence, hundreds or thousands of the same case. The game recognises each one as the Vestige. For one person to be able to choose their racials means that thousands of people will. At which point it stops having anything to do with being special, or the vestige. The fact that all players would be able to do it is what makes it impossible.
But that is mechanics and game issues, NOT Lore. There are only three choices here:
1) Say that sometimes Lore trumps mechanics and mechanics trump lore.
2) Justify it based on game and mechanics issue, which means that Lore is irrelevant to the discussion.
3) Justify it based upon Lore, which means that the game and mechanics are irrelevant to the discussion.
In the case of the first, then there is no difference from the second, that if Lore can sometimes be discounted, then it can be discounted in this case.
In the case of the second, then there would need to be a mechanical justification for why appearance and abilities need to be tied together, regardless of the game Lore.
In the case of the third, then there needs to be a demonstration of why, when extraordinary individuals may exceed others of any race, that the Vestige (who is if anything even more extraordinary) be excluded from that opportunity, regardless of the mechanical fact that there are numerous Vestiges.
Ah, there's the issue. You are dividing game mechanics from Lore.
Game mechanics are the way in which the physically associated components of the Lore are expressed. At a basic level, why do all of our characters walk on the ground rather than fly through the air? Gravity is both a game mechanic and a part of the setting.
The location of the realms and settlements on the map? Lore turned into mechanics.
The height range settings for characters? Lore turned into mechanics.
This isn't a case of justifying why appearance and abilities are tied together in terms of mechanics and Lore, this is a case of one being a direct reflection of the other. Any division between the two is inherently arbitrary. If a justification needs to be supplied, it should be why racial choice should have no effect on abilities. Not the other way around.
Sure, then I wish the mechanics to represent the ability for a Nord to become the most powerful mage of the age, since that is supported by the Lore. That is the lore turned into mechanics, so at the moment the game is failing to turn the lore into mechanics and should be changed to accommodate that.
How would you become the most powerful mage of the age? After all, everyone else on your server would have the same opportunity.
How, also, would you suggest ZOS explain the fact that even though Shalidor (who predates the time ESO is set) is the one that is remembered through the long ages of Tamriel up to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim... history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist with your changes?
The existing racial passive system allows characters to surpass fabled characters of history with no reference to the natural gifts/abilities of their race?
Not as far as I can see. No, it doesn't. Care to explain the reasoning behind that last statement?
Moving the goalposts: you said that "history would not record the hundreds or thousands of others who are of his power level or higher that would be allowed to exist." This can already occur, because these passives exist. Ergo, the problem exists either way. If the problem exists either way, it can either be corrected (removing all passives) or ignored.
They exist attached to their current races. Is history going to mark down yet another Altmer mage? Not unless they do something extraordinary, because there are already so many of them. Is history likely to sit up and take note if an Argonian suddenly displays all of the Magicka talent that you would expect of an Altmer mage? More than likely.
That's the point. With their current bindings, the passives aren't noteworthy because they reinforce much of what we have been previously led to understand about the races of Tamriel. As soon as you play any kind of mix-and-match game (whether it is a Redguard with Breton passives or the choice to pick and choose freely) then you have broken out of that mold. The character is immediately noteworthy... and, by extension, so is everyone else who does the same.
You are likely to end up with more exceptions to the rules, than cases where they are followed. That is why I am against this idea every time it comes up.
Before I address this, let me ask you a question: How do you explain that history does not record millions of Vestiges?
Personally? I don't want to. I actually hate that ESO went with that as the Main Story. I would have much preferred it if each character of ours was Joe Nobody but that we were all working on (for or against) some common goal. That is a storyline that recognises the individuality of each character while integrating us all into a single narrative.
If I have to guess ZOS' justification? I would guess that ZOS will lean on the incredibly overused Dragon Break excuse in place of actual storytelling.
So, going to answer my question? Going to suggest how it could be done properly or are you going claim that it can be done in the same lazy fashion as ZOS?
I'm not asking for their justification, I'm asking for YOUR justification.
My justification is that they aren't the Vestige. I am.
Main Story quests are, if memory serves, solo instanced. Not only do I not have to interact with others during the events that comprise the Main Story, I don't even have to see others while they are doing them. Other quests often don't have this level of separation. As such, there aren't other Vestiges. There is only my character.
How is this different from the racial passives question? Glad you asked. In open world PvE, Dungeons, Trials and PvP my character can directly observe the power level and abilities of others (especially in cooperative content).
As such, the approach is different. The first is a case of having no evidence to the contrary, the second is directly ignoring evidence presented.