Warden is a pretty horrible class

Alucardo · July 2017

OK, so I have played Warden for long enough. After getting to Major in PVP and unlocking basically everything I can in PVE, I can honestly say I'm pretty much done with the class, unless it sees some severe improvements.
If you're looking for something casual and fun to play, it's great and I would definitely recommend it. For competitive ESO, go with Sorc instead. Everybody else is anyway.

What I don't like

Gameplay feels slow
The slow gameplay. Everything is delayed. At first I thought it would great, like catching your opponents unaware with a huge amount of burst. Well, no. People are aware of Wardens now to step out of the way of Scorch, and Cliff Racer is way too slow.
I just had a 6 minute fight with a magicka sorc and literally 2 of my deep fissures landed. They saw me cast it, then would streak over me just before they landed making sure I was facing the other way. People aren't stupid ZOS.

The slow gameplay could be rectified by completing overhauling cliff racer. It's the Warden's main spammable, so it needs to be fast like every other spammable ability in this game. I would suggest removing the 15% damage from max range and replacing it with Major Breach, increasing the speed, making it shoot horizontally, and making it dodgeable (not reflectable, like Crushing Shock)

No reliable CC
The only CC wardens have is the magicka morph of Scorch (Deep Fissure). If you're fighting multiple people it only CCs one enemy, so I never really know who it will hit. I believe every class should have a reliable CC, especially classes that rely on burst combos such as magicka nightblades. So not only do we have slow combat, but we have no reliable CC to aid us in these combos, once again relying on Deep Fissure.

Maybe a morph of frozen gate could be reworked. You cast it once and it freezes the target in a kneeling position similar to fossilize. If you cast it on them again while they're frozen they get pulled to you and obviously thawed out. This can go through block

Low damage, no execute
You give the Warden slow damage abilities and no execute. Why? What was the thought process behind this? Trying to close kills on a Magicka Warden is like that feeling you get when you want to sneeze but can't quite get it out. It's frustrating.

You didn't really give us a lot of damage skills to work with, so it's hard to say where to put an execute. You can't add it to the cliff racer because that would be ridiculous, you can't put it into deep fissure because that's AOE. Fetcher infection is an option, but that's just a DoT that can be purged. I don't really know. Maybe if the first point was taken care of and had at least one faster attack we wouldn't need an execute as badly

The Passives

Winter's Embrace needs redoing. Most of the passives in there are just silly. 500 resistances for each winter's embrace skill slotted. Really? Unless you're role playing Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat you're not going to get much use out of this.
Icy Aura is supposed to dull the effectiveness of snares by 15%, but the thing is, you barely notice it. There's so much snaring you in this game that it always feels the same. Change this to something more useful, or give it an additional bonus of "Increase Physical damage by 6% to at least benefit stam wardens.

Now if you haven't already guessed this is purely from a damage role perspective. I've also healed on a Warden, and it's actually not bad at all. If you're more into support, then this class is brilliant.
But yeah, if you want to be a damage dealer, then the Warden is only useful if your opponent has the IQ and reflexes of a target dummy.

I'll be on my Sorc until you get this mess cleaned up.

menedhyn · July 2017

I chose Warden for roleplay purposes more than anything else, but I can't ignore the practical side of skills and abilities.

As a player still very new to the class, this is extremely useful. Thank you.

Tasear · July 2017

It's a lot of fun though... especially in PvP. I think it's user friendly too for PvP.

Makes a boss off tank though!

Ermiq · July 2017

Hm... Good thread.
I think you should write another one about how horrible sorc is from a healer role perspective.

Warden was designed as a tank/heal/support class. What did you expected playing him as a DD?

DRXHarbinger · July 2017

Warden is a tricky one to suss out. Anyone guess why it never made the cut in the 1st place (so many people wanted this necrod too for some reason) as a DD it's very poor. As a support tank..I personally think it's works the best. Got great utility but that is it.

STEVIL · July 2017

Alucardo wrote: »

OK, so I have played Warden for long enough. After getting to Major in PVP and unlocking basically everything I can in PVE, I can honestly say I'm pretty much done with the class, unless it sees some severe improvements.
If you're looking for something casual and fun to play, it's great and I would definitely recommend it. For competitive ESO, go with Sorc instead. Everybody else is anyway.

What I don't like

Gameplay feels slow
The slow gameplay. Everything is delayed. At first I thought it would great, like catching your opponents unaware with a huge amount of burst. Well, no. People are aware of Wardens now to step out of the way of Scorch, and Cliff Racer is way too slow.
I just had a 6 minute fight with a magicka sorc and literally 2 of my deep fissures landed. They saw me cast it, then would streak over me just before they landed making sure I was facing the other way. People aren't stupid ZOS.

The slow gameplay could be rectified by completing overhauling cliff racer. It's the Warden's main spammable, so it needs to be fast like every other spammable ability in this game. I would suggest removing the 15% damage from max range and replacing it with Major Breach, increasing the speed, making it shoot horizontally, and making it dodgeable (not reflectable, like Crushing Shock)

No reliable CC
The only CC wardens have is the magicka morph of Scorch (Deep Fissure). If you're fighting multiple people it only CCs one enemy, so I never really know who it will hit. I believe every class should have a reliable CC, especially classes that rely on burst combos such as magicka nightblades. So not only do we have slow combat, but we have no reliable CC to aid us in these combos, once again relying on Deep Fissure.

Maybe a morph of frozen gate could be reworked. You cast it once and it freezes the target in a kneeling position similar to fossilize. If you cast it on them again while they're frozen they get pulled to you and obviously thawed out. This can go through block

Low damage, no execute
You give the Warden slow damage abilities and no execute. Why? What was the thought process behind this? Trying to close kills on a Magicka Warden is like that feeling you get when you want to sneeze but can't quite get it out. It's frustrating.

You didn't really give us a lot of damage skills to work with, so it's hard to say where to put an execute. You can't add it to the cliff racer because that would be ridiculous, you can't put it into deep fissure because that's AOE. Fetcher infection is an option, but that's just a DoT that can be purged. I don't really know. Maybe if the first point was taken care of and had at least one faster attack we wouldn't need an execute as badly

The Passives

Winter's Embrace needs redoing. Most of the passives in there are just silly. 500 resistances for each winter's embrace skill slotted. Really? Unless you're role playing Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat you're not going to get much use out of this.
Icy Aura is supposed to dull the effectiveness of snares by 15%, but the thing is, you barely notice it. There's so much snaring you in this game that it always feels the same. Change this to something more useful, or give it an additional bonus of "Increase Physical damage by 6% to at least benefit stam wardens.

Now if you haven't already guessed this is purely from a damage role perspective. I've also healed on a Warden, and it's actually not bad at all. If you're more into support, then this class is brilliant.
But yeah, if you want to be a damage dealer, then the Warden is only useful if your opponent has the IQ and reflexes of a target dummy.

I'll be on my Sorc until you get this mess cleaned up.

Hmmm.. have you read the threads about how OP racers are and in need of nerfs cuz of pvp wardens?

Keep_Door · July 2017

I disagree, but then again i play a stam proctard warden in pvp that burst damage is crazy although sometimes hard to pull off against competent players.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

Some of the skills are passive are out right useless while personally i think the undodgeable cliff racer is too strong.

Even when i cancel the skills they feel so slow going off, you can actually cast some skills before your current casted skills animation finishes, they're fancy, some look good but they're slow.

I feel like zos put more effort into the animations than its effects.

Not too fond of how ignored stam warden feels, no physical passive anymore, most of the passives and skills are useless for it. Its dive morph is missing an effect, its betty morph is missing an effect.

Feels like a half finished class and they just threw some random effects into passives/ skills.

Bashev · July 2017

Keep_Door wrote: »

I disagree, but then again i play a stam proctard warden in pvp that burst damage is crazy although sometimes hard to pull off against competent players.

You cannot compare them. Stam wardens have access to execute and gap closers.

I play Magicka Warden, more like support and low DPS (2.2k spell damage and 37k magicka in no CP) in PvP. I have fun but I really feel that something is missing. At least I hope that ZoS will fix some of the current Warden skill bugs.

SodanTok · July 2017

Damn, spent like 20 minutes trying to post rant about passives that was not too long. Failed 3 times so now for really short rant.

The passives are bad. Super bad. Most of them work only if you slot something from their tree. Half of them work only on the skills from that tree and there are even some that require you to slot all skills for full effect. Bad, bad, bad...

Also return damage passive boosts at least stam warden skills. Before we had one that boosted all damage without slotting anything and one that boosted warden skills the more were slotted. Now we have one that boosts everything the more are slotted. In short all warden skills got worse.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

Damn, spent like 20 minutes trying to post rant about passives that was not too long. Failed 3 times so now for really short rant.

The passives are bad. Super bad. Most of them work only if you slot something from their tree. Half of them work only on the skills from that tree and there are even some that require you to slot all skills for full effect. Bad, bad, bad...

There are some good ones though, like the animal companion % dmg one.

The one that gives 250 everytime you heal with a green balance skills is annoying af.

SodanTok · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Damn, spent like 20 minutes trying to post rant about passives that was not too long. Failed 3 times so now for really short rant.

The passives are bad. Super bad. Most of them work only if you slot something from their tree. Half of them work only on the skills from that tree and there are even some that require you to slot all skills for full effect. Bad, bad, bad...

There are some good ones though, like the animal companion % dmg one.

The one that gives 250 everytime you heal with a green balance skills is annoying af.

Thats like the best one, but hard for me to look at positively, because its weaker version of what stam warden had... and mag wardens now have. (Sure stam wardens overall dont need damage boost, but stam wardens skills do)

And the resource one is baaad. First you look at it and think nice. Then you notice you need to heal others to get it and say.. fine at least it will proc from green lotus. Then you notice green lotus does not heal allies when it heals you...

Rudens · July 2017

I love this class - it actually is my favourite to play, but a lot of abilities do feel lacluster. I mostly play PVP though, so my opinion is based on it and nothing else.

Arctic wind is garbage - on paper it looks fine as its supposed to heal you for 30% of HP, but if you are in a fight, then any other healing skill will do better. I feel like changing the time to 4-6 seconds or close to that could be a much better fit -make every tick larger so it actually feels usefull and due to reduced time it wont become spammable since it still uses magicka.

Scorch - either reduce the timer or make the rings appear at half of its activation. Like OP said - only braindead people havent found a way to dodge it yet. 3 seconds is insane amount of time in PVP - anyone can dodge or escape it, since even rolling backwards twice will put you out of its range. Its only use in PVP is big fights, where there is too much going on and people don't see the rings.

Swarm - literally never used it in PVP and don't see a point of it. Its just weak. Every time someone puts it on me i just continue doing whatever I was doing for it will not even scratch me. I have no idea why anyone would put it on his bar.

Living vines - just increse the duration. This is a great ability that is neother overpowered, nor weak, but the duration is atrocious. Make it cost more if you dont want it to be too good, just dont make me cast it every 10 seconds - a healing skill should not be a part of my active rotation.

And my most subjective one:
Dive - it's the most boring spammable in game. I don't care if you remove undodgeable, just make it fun. I have no idea how those spammers still use it, since watching a paint dry is more fun than this skill. Maybe make it execute with greatly reduced range (sry magdens and bowdens, I dunno how it impacts you or not)? Since scorch is already pretty much a mid range skill, make this one an execute but usable only at close or mid range. It would give magdens a cool combo of Scorch + Dive (you stun and finish target) and make it actually fun and viable for stamdens, who do not enjoy running at 40ft and spamming.

Sorry for bad english, if anything.

xerikos · July 2017

Eremith wrote: »

Warden was designed as a tank/heal/support class. What did you expected playing him as a DD?

Exactly.

Why add a new class and expect it to perform and act as any other class? I hate skill delays, I agree on that, but you have to modify your playstyle to take that into account, imho.

Tasear · July 2017

I will bring up the frozen gate animation is slow... and doesn't pull somethings the counterpart chains does.

akl77 · July 2017

I agree, Warden just inferior in every role.
Templar healer still more efficient, Dk tank still best, sorc dps still on top, nb in PVP still on top.
Warden don't have anything they do well in.
I only use it for tanking now, just for fun, since I'm bored with my Templar.

Psylum · July 2017

Alucardo wrote: »

No reliable CC
The only CC wardens have is the magicka morph of Scorch (Deep Fissure). If you're fighting multiple people it only CCs one enemy, so I never really know who it will hit. I believe every class should have a reliable CC, especially classes that rely on burst combos such as magicka nightblades. So not only do we have slow combat, but we have no reliable CC to aid us in these combos, once again relying on Deep Fissure.

The Impaling Shards morph, Gripping Shards is an aoe immobilize. Freezing also immobilizes. I've seen permafrost ult. being used with the eye of the storm groups in PVP. These are probably not skills a dps build would chose, but as a tank I find things stay frozen in place most of the time. I just wish I had aoe or boss maiming options.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

xerikos wrote: »

Eremith wrote: »

Warden was designed as a tank/heal/support class. What did you expected playing him as a DD?

Exactly.

Why add a new class and expect it to perform and act as any other class? I hate skill delays, I agree on that, but you have to modify your playstyle to take that into account, imho.

Its not even a good tank/heak/support.

Other classes perform this better.

hmsdragonfly · July 2017

How can it be? Everyone complained about "Warden OP", "Warden P2W" before the class was even released!

Eremith wrote: »

Hm... Good thread.
I think you should write another one about how horrible sorc is from a healer role perspective.

Warden was designed as a tank/heal/support class. What did you expected playing him as a DD?

Warden was designed to be tank/heal/DPS, there's a whole DPS skilltree.

hmsdragonfly · July 2017

Keep_Door wrote: »

I disagree, but then again i play a stam proctard warden in pvp that burst damage is crazy although sometimes hard to pull off against competent players.

Your class doesn't matter if you play a stam proctard. Proc is pretty much its own class.

Phinix1 · July 2017

Eremith wrote: »

Warden was designed as a tank/heal/support class. What did you expected playing him as a DD?

Trouble with that is ESO is not like GW2. Combat here isn't designed in such a way that a support class really makes any sense, and doesn't really have a useful place in a group.

The only thing I can imagine a support class being good for is small open world questing groups of 2-3 players where DPS and heals and tanking doesn't really matter anyway, just for RP purposes.

Other than that what are you supporting? Your own bear?

Tanks slot utility skills and usually the Warhorn Major Force group buff, healers slot group buffs and do some DPS. What place does a support class honestly have?

For any sort of dungeon or trial, a 'support class' really just means 'lackluster DPS' in practice.

What is this idea of a new class NEEDING to be 'jack of all trades master of none?' We already have Templar which is able to be top tier DPS, healing, AND tank. Why do we get hung up on this block that a class has to be meta at ONE role and suck at the rest?

It isn't consistent and there are already classes that break this silly mold. Time to break the mold.

DRXHarbinger · July 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Keep_Door wrote: »

I disagree, but then again i play a stam proctard warden in pvp that burst damage is crazy although sometimes hard to pull off against competent players.

Your class doesn't matter if you play a stam proctard. Proc is pretty much its own class.

Procasaurus class in next update?

theher0not · July 2017

The only change Warden needs IMHO is some actual benefits of the stam morphs. And some passives that are good for stamina (like the PTR version that had physical and ice dgm boost rather than ice and magical dgm)

Shad0wfire99 · July 2017

I'm not sure what everyone expected. Wardens were some *** left over that wasn't good enough to make it past the Alpha, but you guys wanted to spend money on it now? lul

Yasha · July 2017

The winter's embrace passives are very weak: frozen armor needs more resistance, ice aura needs at least 50% snare reduction, piercing cold needs its physical damage boost back: or they need to be reworked completely.

Most disappointing skill in the game for me is frozen gate. I was so hyped when I unlocked it, but it basically doesn't work in pvp. You can't do anything interesting with it like pull enemies off keep walls or infiltrate keeps, and I've put it right on doorways and seen people just run over it and not get pulled.

Crystallized shard is a good skill but it doesn't stop the cc from projectiles which makes it like a really weak form of DK wings. Why???

Gripping shards is good but again my DK's talons seem to work much much better. Its like the animation to cast it is slow and the aoe and root is smaller/shorter.

Arctic wind- heal is completely underwhelming- how about bumping it up to 30% of max health or something to make it viable? Or make it more thematic, like applying an aoe chill/snare around the caster? Something to not make it worthless.

There are some good skills like permafrost, frost cloak, maybe cutting dive (only because its undodgeable), and sub assault (aoe major breach/fracture is nothing to sneeze at). Nature's grasp is really interesting (I can't fit it into my build, but the animation and idea are great).

The main weakness I find with Warden compared to other classes is that there is no "oh ***" button. No massive shields, no streak away and stun everyone, no stealth, etc. Also, the resource regen options are interesting, but as far as I can tell they don't really hold a flame to sorc/dk regen.

All in all, I have to say kudos for not making the new exclusive class OP, it probably needs some buffs if anything.

Mojomonkeyman · July 2017

I play almost exclusively bgs, and dont have much time in general for gaming these days. But my warden feels damn strong within bg environment. I have all bg titles with that char, so its not just a few games played.

But I feel the first meta setups out there (necro et al) are highly overrated, I've moved away from that playstyle very soon and feel stronger adopting a playstyle more similar to dk than sorc.

Phinix1 · July 2017

I find that stamina warden is an absolute beast in PVE. The master of killing large packs in a practical 1-shot before they kill you.

Long duration fights their DPS is pretty bad, especially single target. I haven't tried tanking, but from what I've seen healing seems a bit annoying and potentially dangerous with the delay on skills. But the effects look so cool!

I guess in a good group of skilled players it would synergize great, but someone needs to make some videos explaining to the new players how to DPS. Almost every DPS I have seen since morrowind is just self buffing with a class skill and light attack spamming. That is NOT how you play this game.

Step 1: Have AOE abilities (Endless Barrage, Elemental Blockade, Liquid Lightning, etc) on off bar. Start there. Drop 1-2 AOE and swap to main bar.

Step 2: Pick your highest damage instant-cast class or weapon skill. Then instead of spamming it, practing light attacking then quickly hitting your skill. This lets your enchants proc and gives you ultimate.

Step 3: Mix it up. Don't be a button masher. Throw in some extra abilities, some utility or group buffs, and remember to swap back to your AOE bar every 10 second or so to re-apply your AOE.

Repeat and profit.

If you find yourself spamming light attack in a dungeon, please consider that this would be the equivalent of parking your character at the boss and auto-attacking in WoW.

Is auto-attacking viable in WoW? No, of course not. Yet that is what you are doing!

Insandros · July 2017

Bah i love my Wardens, one healer, one dps, my DPS warden is actualy beating a lot my sorc as DPS since the changes in morrowind.... first time i tried vMA with my sorc, i got stucked on stage 5 for a while, i stoped a few months ago trying it out, got tired of being unable to beat last boss... i tried gain, made it to stage 9 last lvl 2 days ago, that is, with maybe what, 10 hours or so from stage 1, how many deaths, i dunno but maybe 200+ and much more... tried yesterday with my Warden, made it stage 1 to 8 in maybe what, 1.5 hour with not even 10 deaths, today i'll try to beat stage 8 and see how it goes in 9... thing were ding faster etc.... i'm a bit higher than average player, so in awesome hands, Wardens should be awesome... i'm doing 30k on dummy, no elemental drain, no ones buffs, bo spell power potion, not a single help from others... far from having trial buffs etc... and most of all, no vMA staff... so on my side, DPS magika warden is not that bad, ad for my healer, just love it...

The thing with warden is, you got to think to play it, think in advance, anticipate things, since as dps, lots of stuff are delayed, as healer, not much HoTs, not much instant massive healing as BoL etc.. but once you get use to it and learn your toons, it's not bad at all.. as for tank, i haven't played it, but my friend got one, he loves it, a bit of learning and adjustment as well versus his DK, like mobs Teleports, a bit slower and a bit more complicated than the DK'S chain, but, need to adjust, before, he was jumping anywhere in mobs pull, and brining them all since it was fast, now, he spot the most isolated mob and where the most of them are an bring the isolated one more than dont care and brining 5 of them in a flash with his DK etc... again more thinking needs to be done, some skil his miss from his DK, buit since he made his warden tank, i haven'T seen him once taking back his DK, same on my side, only time i brought back my Templar healer since, was because i had to grab another toon with undone pledges...

So warden are more, think, use your brain, don't just think about spamming 1-2 button to keep up, manage your stuff, in my own opinion, it's not for laysy people that go on the net, copy someones elses build and wis they get the best class around and toon by clicking 1-2 button as laysy.

on my side, my best class even, fun to play, cool animation, train your to get some situation awareness by looking around not just focusing yourself.

As a bit more then average casual player, if i can pull up 30k as mentionned before, with my own created builds, skillbars management, cp distribution, gear choice, it's because it ain'T that bad at all. No way i ever did on my Templar near 150k HPS or even close to that... so i find it not that bad. As for execute, well, the warden looks a bit like the DK, and both doesn't have neither Execute. but anyways as healer and DPS, my wardens are my favorites, as game play, animations etc.. my favortire class, i mostly only play my 2 wardens now.... fun, fun, fun

yukikenzo · July 2017

Not everything is DPS related... just saying.

The Warden is really good as a healer, while also supporting the group. Really high uptime for Minor Toughness which you will only get when a Warhorn is active. It feels more rewarding to play as a healer because you need to know where you put your heals, also you can finally complain about stupid positioning of a DPS (you know the guys who move around like crazy in a fight) when they die.
Did not try tanking with Warden yet but I heard its pretty awesome.

Tryxus · July 2017

Other than the slower gameplay and the Frozen Armor passive that sux, I def DO NOT agree with the OP

(Excuse the Pokemon referrences)

The gameplay of the Warden is indeed slower, especially due to the delay on the Pidgeys and the Shalk. Which means that you have to play more in a tactical way than the other classes.

The only role in which the Warden is terrible is PvE DPS, but other than that the Warden is def a good and fun class to use. It is NOT the most horrible class to use

hmsdragonfly · July 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Keep_Door wrote: »

I disagree, but then again i play a stam proctard warden in pvp that burst damage is crazy although sometimes hard to pull off against competent players.

Your class doesn't matter if you play a stam proctard. Proc is pretty much its own class.

Procasaurus class in next update?

Don't give ZOS any idea lol xD