Why buff Atronach (and Serpent)?

FakeFox · July 2017

I think the changes to those two mundus stones don't make any sense. The reason for the changes is to have alternatives to the Thief, as far as I see it. But Atronach and Serpent don't have anything to do with that, they are for a completely different purpose and are already strong at that. From a healer perspective sustain is fine on live now but this change buffs it quite considerable. With the lack of cost reduction since 3.0 stacking insane amounts of magicka reg is very strong anyway and with all those percentage multipliers this is quite a huge sustain buff, but in my opinion a unnecessary one.

I'm mostly talking about Atronarch since it's the more relevant but the the same goes for Serpent, just that nobody ever plays Serpent on a full divine build so the impact is far smaller.

Edit: I guess I have to be more precise on what my actual problem with that change is. I see how this is only a small, but nice change for some, especially PvP, builds and how it sets the mundus stones in line with everything else. But the problem I see is that you can abuse it on builds that don't require any offensive stats to be effective (primarily healers) in order to stack so much regen that it completely makes the sustain nerfs with Morrowind irrelevant, making healing in PvE too easy and allowing abusive builds that nobody wants in PvP.

React · July 2017

From a stamina perspective, I feel the buff to serpent is necessary and a good one. However from my experience magicka sustain is vastly easier, so perhaps the atro buff is overkill.

I certainly am bias, though.

Minaithelan · July 2017

The Atro buff is an overkill, however I think it will make all those complaining Templars stop. I do think healing will be something easier with all that regen, but good healer may change their enchants to spell damage probably.

What I fear however is that The Ritual (% healing) will now be totally useless. Still gotta make some tests I may share them in the afternoon.

Draqone · July 2017

@Minaithelan
Eeeeh... i never had trouble with magplar magicka sustain when healing. I don't feel I need the Ritual either, it's so subpar.

The Magplars you talk about are DPS magplars that simply can't sustain their rotation.

StereoLiz · July 2017

I agree with OP. This munduses are popular and strong now on live. You know why? Because ZoS nerfed sustain like 1 month ago. Did they forget about what the said about resource managmemt as important part of Eso gameplay? All changes in complex will break whole stat balance system that we have now in my opinion. Increase recovery mundus - but not recovery food and glyphs. Why? What is the purpose? To do hidden nerf to food and glyphs? Zos want glyphs to be irrelevant or what? I just don't get it.
And whyyyy buff max stat pool? To make spell and weapon damage irrelevant? To speed up power creep? The whole picture... it doesn't make sense at all!

paulsimonps · July 2017

As a Tank, I am LOVING that change, better and easier sustain for tanks.

FakeFox · July 2017

Minaithelan wrote: »

The Atro buff is an overkill, however I think it will make all those complaining Templars stop. I do think healing will be something easier with all that regen, but good healer may change their enchants to spell damage probably.

What I fear however is that The Ritual (% healing) will now be totally useless. Still gotta make some tests I may share them in the afternoon.

I don't see were Templar healer as any issues with sustain right now. You can easily stack so much reg with all those percent multipliers. The thing I fear with that change is that it get's totally blown out of proportion. Ritual is in my mind pretty useless anyway. In PvE I have nothing that increases healing done and still overheal and in PvP regen is just too important.

Minaithelan · July 2017

@Draqone and @FakeFox
More sustain indirectly means more healing, which kind of makes up for the loss of the Major Mending mechanic. It does not mean you heal for more, simply we will be able to cast more heals non-stop

Minaithelan · July 2017

@Draqone and @FakeFox
More sustain indirectly means more healing, which kind of makes up for the loss of the Major Mending mechanic. It does not mean you heal for more, simply we will be able to cast more heals non-stop
Edit: It seems I forgot value =/= perceived value lol

Derra · July 2017

It simply needs to provide a somewhat comparable ration of mundus compared to setbonus that they´re aiming for with these changes.

All mundus stones provide around two normal setbonuses worth of stats. If they hadn´t changed that for attro/serpent these would have simply become completely irrelevant.

Dasovaruilos · July 2017

Because they wanted all Mundus to be equivalent to 1.85x the bonus of a set.

I have no idea why those two should be different. They should provide the same amount of buff if someone wants to do a build stacking that particular bonus.

I really like that this is standard now.

It will make compensating for something much easier knowing that if you lack some bonus on your sets or Weapon Traits, you probably can switch a Mundus or CP to compensate for that.

It goes with the idea of making more traits viable.

All Mundus are strong now. All of them. 238 Spell Damage, for example? Very strong. Julianos 5 piece bonus is 299.

Atronach and Serpent are still weaker than Witchmother's or Dubious regen, which is good since those give less max stats than blue food.

It is all a risk/reward choice.

Strider_Roshin · July 2017

Stamina certainly needed the extra sustain (doubt it will be enough though). As far as magicka goes this change isn't a big deal since sustaining was already easy.

FakeFox · July 2017

@Minaithelan

I understand that, but that doesn't change that healing right now is easy enough. Even with the loss of major mending the individual heals are strong enough and you can at the moment get over 3k unbuffed magicka regen without any trouble while still running two support sets in PvE or two tank sets in PvP. Fully buffed it's more around 4k, which means you can spam heals all day long. I can see how the mundus changes can be a small buff for some builds, but for healers and other builds that stack it it makes it too easy to get unreasonable amounts of sustain.

StereoLiz · July 2017

Derra wrote: »

It simply needs to provide a somewhat comparable ration of mundus compared to setbonus that they´re aiming for with these changes.

All mundus stones provide around two normal setbonuses worth of stats. If they hadn´t changed that for attro/serpent these would have simply become completely irrelevant.

But recovery set bonuses didn't receive buff:

Universally adjusted the values of some 1, 2, 3, and 4-piece bonus stats for all Item Sets:

Max Health, Magicka, or Stamina has been increased by 13.3%
Weapon Critical or Spell Critical rating has been increased by 55%
Physical or Spell Resistance has been increased by 13.8%
Physical or Spell Penetration has been decreased by 22%

StereoLiz · July 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Stamina certainly needed the extra sustain (doubt it will be enough though). As far as magicka goes this change isn't a big deal since sustaining was already easy.

No. L2balance stats. As we all do for years.

joaaocaampos · July 2017

Im Templar Healer (PvE) using The Thief. I don't use Atronach, because is weak. With the next update, maybe I'll think about changing.

Alucardo · July 2017

A lot of people weren't happy with the savage nerf to resource management, so buffing the regen mundus stones is a pretty good compromise tbh

SodanTok · July 2017

StereoLiz wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It simply needs to provide a somewhat comparable ration of mundus compared to setbonus that they´re aiming for with these changes.

All mundus stones provide around two normal setbonuses worth of stats. If they hadn´t changed that for attro/serpent these would have simply become completely irrelevant.

But recovery set bonuses didn't receive buff:

Universally adjusted the values of some 1, 2, 3, and 4-piece bonus stats for all Item Sets:

Max Health, Magicka, or Stamina has been increased by 13.3%
Weapon Critical or Spell Critical rating has been increased by 55%
Physical or Spell Resistance has been increased by 13.8%
Physical or Spell Penetration has been decreased by 22%

Nor did weapon/spell damage set bonus but they got mundus change.... because they (damage and regen mundus) were already lower than the targeted 1.85x or smth value.

Joy_Division · July 2017

They said so right in the patch notes:

ZoS wrote:

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus.[/zone]

Biro123 · July 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

They said so right in the patch notes:

ZoS wrote:

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus.

That's balance, right there.

Minaithelan · July 2017

FakeFox wrote: »

@Minaithelan

I understand that, but that doesn't change that healing right now is easy enough. Even with the loss of major mending the individual heals are strong enough and you can at the moment get over 3k unbuffed magicka regen without any trouble while still running two support sets in PvE or two tank sets in PvP. Fully buffed it's more around 4k, which means you can spam heals all day long. I can see how the mundus changes can be a small buff for some builds, but for healers and other builds that stack it it makes it too easy to get unreasonable amounts of sustain.

Yes, I just tested many builds, even with spell damage. In terms of raw healing power and reasonable sustain (~2.6k Mag rec)The Ritual is the best option. I reached more than 3.5k Mag Rec with Atronach+Witchmother+Potion, which i think is way too much. These are only numbers though, I'd need to go to a Vet Trial to see it in action.

Derra · July 2017

StereoLiz wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It simply needs to provide a somewhat comparable ration of mundus compared to setbonus that they´re aiming for with these changes.

All mundus stones provide around two normal setbonuses worth of stats. If they hadn´t changed that for attro/serpent these would have simply become completely irrelevant.

But recovery set bonuses didn't receive buff:

Universally adjusted the values of some 1, 2, 3, and 4-piece bonus stats for all Item Sets:

Max Health, Magicka, or Stamina has been increased by 13.3%
Weapon Critical or Spell Critical rating has been increased by 55%
Physical or Spell Resistance has been increased by 13.8%
Physical or Spell Penetration has been decreased by 22%

Does that matter?

maxmagica ~1000 mundus ~2000
regen ~130 mundus ~240
crit 4.5% mundus 9%
resistance 2700 mundus 2700x2

only penetration, healing done is noticeably stronger than the equivalent setbonus.

Strider_Roshin · July 2017

StereoLiz wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Stamina certainly needed the extra sustain (doubt it will be enough though). As far as magicka goes this change isn't a big deal since sustaining was already easy.

No. L2balance stats. As we all do for years.

I typically have around 2200 stam regen for my stam characters.

My magicka characters on the other hand need around 1400.

It's just simply easier to maintain resources when playing magicka.

Biro123 · July 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

StereoLiz wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Stamina certainly needed the extra sustain (doubt it will be enough though). As far as magicka goes this change isn't a big deal since sustaining was already easy.

No. L2balance stats. As we all do for years.

I typically have around 2200 stam regen for my stam characters.

My magicka characters on the other hand need around 1400.

It's just simply easier to maintain resources when playing magicka.

I dunno - it all depends on classes/builds, I guess.. My stam has around 2200 too, mag has 1900 and runs dry in extended combats (but I take that sacrifice for more burst). 2200 seems like a better spot to me on mag for indefinite sustain.

FakeFox · July 2017

Minaithelan wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

@Minaithelan

I understand that, but that doesn't change that healing right now is easy enough. Even with the loss of major mending the individual heals are strong enough and you can at the moment get over 3k unbuffed magicka regen without any trouble while still running two support sets in PvE or two tank sets in PvP. Fully buffed it's more around 4k, which means you can spam heals all day long. I can see how the mundus changes can be a small buff for some builds, but for healers and other builds that stack it it makes it too easy to get unreasonable amounts of sustain.

Yes, I just tested many builds, even with spell damage. In terms of raw healing power and reasonable sustain (~2.6k Mag rec)The Ritual is the best option. I reached more than 3.5k Mag Rec with Atronach+Witchmother+Potion, which i think is way too much. These are only numbers though, I'd need to go to a Vet Trial to see it in action.

On live I run 3k regen unbuffed for trials at the moment. It is more then needed, but there is no use to having more spelldamge or magicka instead in my opinion, so going for more sustain seems saver when *** hits the fan.

FakeFox · July 2017

Alucardo wrote: »

A lot of people weren't happy with the savage nerf to resource management, so buffing the regen mundus stones is a pretty good compromise tbh

Actually I'm not a big fan of the sustain changes with morrowind either, but I don't think this is the right way to change it. In my opinion it does nothing for the play styles that have problems now but too much for those who don't have problems anyway. Replacing cost reduction with regen doesn't work for me since it scales completely different.

SanTii.92 · July 2017

Derra wrote: »

It simply needs to provide a somewhat comparable ration of mundus compared to setbonus that they´re aiming for with these changes.

All mundus stones provide around two normal setbonuses worth of stats. If they hadn´t changed that for attro/serpent these would have simply become completely irrelevant.

Yeap, or in the developrs words:

Developer Comments wrote:

We’ve also standardized Mundus Stone values against other systems that grant similar bonuses, such as enchantments or Item Sets, so you can customize the stats you care about in each system without needing to worry about weighing the exact values against each other. Mundus Stones are now equivalent to 1.85x of an Item Set bonus.

For consistency's sake. That's why.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

StereoLiz wrote: »

I agree with OP. This munduses are popular and strong now on live. You know why? Because ZoS nerfed sustain like 1 month ago. Did they forget about what the said about resource managmemt as important part of Eso gameplay? All changes in complex will break whole stat balance system that we have now in my opinion. Increase recovery mundus - but not recovery food and glyphs. Why? What is the purpose? To do hidden nerf to food and glyphs? Zos want glyphs to be irrelevant or what? I just don't get it.
And whyyyy buff max stat pool? To make spell and weapon damage irrelevant? To speed up power creep? The whole picture... it doesn't make sense at all!

Exactly. Nerf Red Guard Adrenaline rush but buff all stamina enchants? Were doing a big ol loop and we will have the exact same issues from before.

Ep1kMalware · July 2017

StereoLiz wrote: »

I agree with OP. This munduses are popular and strong now on live. You know why? Because ZoS nerfed sustain like 1 month ago. Did they forget about what the said about resource managmemt as important part of Eso gameplay? All changes in complex will break whole stat balance system that we have now in my opinion. Increase recovery mundus - but not recovery food and glyphs. Why? What is the purpose? To do hidden nerf to food and glyphs? Zos want glyphs to be irrelevant or what? I just don't get it.
And whyyyy buff max stat pool? To make spell and weapon damage irrelevant? To speed up power creep? The whole picture... it doesn't make sense at all!

STOP

Magdk needs help.