Stam DK weakest class?

OrphanHelgen · July 2017

Sry for clickbait XD

Our guild have done a lot of dps tests on 6 mill skeleton, 55 mil centurion and in raids.
It has basically been a maraton of stamina dps, where we tested a lot of group composition, including dropping twicefanged snake for sunderflame and night mother.

Stamina DK have good stamina sustain due to flames of oblivion cost magicka, molten armaments cost magicka and gives stam back, and battle roar passive.
But when it comes to pure dps, it looks like other stamina classes out dps a stamina DK.
The reasons are due to their passives, which is physical damage increase, max stamina, crit chance, crit damage and weapon damage.
The DK passives in terms of damage, are; increase damage with poison status effect and poison AOE abilities.
Most of the damage comes from physical and scales with weapon damage, max stamina and crit, which is where other classes outperform.

Additional small details that don't count much but are worth to mention; there is more mag sorcs going full lightning builds atm, and together with stamina in raids there is no fire damage at all.
Not saying this is the case in all groups, but at least what we have experienced. So engulfing flames are no longer an option, that boosts flame damage by 10%. It doesn't affect stam dk that much, but it's a fact that standard of might and flames of oblivion will deal less damage. I would also like to remind the standard of might nerf with Homestead patch was due to the molten whip damage got increased, which has nothing to do with stamina DK. - Mag DK balance = Stam DK nerf.

After the nerf to base damage to heavy attacks as well as the champion points changes with master in arms, molten armaments have less value than before, and the gap with a heavy attack on a DK compared to other class, are closer. Have in mind, heavy attacks on a class that doesn't have bonus to heavy attacks, still benefits from example crit dmg on a nightblade / templar.

I personally think igneous weapons could have a passive that converted your heavy attacks from physical damage to poison damage.
The passive with 6% more damage with poison AOE abilities, could be 6% more damage with all poison attacks, kind of like sorcs already have additional dmg with lightning and physical.
Then maybe sets like Swamp Raider would be an option.
This would also give stam DK a little boost to poison injection, which would help them in execute compared to sorcs implosion and nightblades impale.

Just for fun, I'm adding a video where I support with sunderflame and morag tong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi-r7TKS__k

WuffyCerulei · July 2017

@HatchetHaro stinky lizard, tell them otherwise.

disintegr8 · July 2017

Isn't that why DK's make good tanks and other classes make better DD's?

Not sure what the point would be if every stamina character could do the same amount of DPS - some are good and some are bad. Some do high DPS but have low sustain, some have better sustain but lower DPS. The idea is to pick a build that works for you and what you want to achieve.

I don't want to go down a vanilla character path where you pick race, any class and just go pump out the same DPS as the next guy.

Tannus15 · July 2017

disintegr8 wrote: »

Isn't that why DK's make good tanks and other classes make better DD's?

Not sure what the point would be if every stamina character could do the same amount of DPS - some are good and some are bad. Some do high DPS but have low sustain, some have better sustain but lower DPS. The idea is to pick a build that works for you and what you want to achieve.

I don't want to go down a vanilla character path where you pick race, any class and just go pump out the same DPS as the next guy.

I disagree.

The damage should be pretty much the same but achieved in different ways. Each class should have different play styles to get basically the same numbers. That's kind of why I like the magi sorc pet / heavy attack builds. It's unique to Sorcs.

What I don't like is how 90% of every stamina build is rapid strikes, rending slashes, hail of arrows, poison arrow + whatever class buff.
The main difference between stam sorc and stam dk in play style is venomous claw vs hurricane.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2017

My stam DK is just about dead and buried. It was already poor in the DPS department due to trying to Mainhand bow, but I could pull 33k which was respectable enough not to be written off. It was decently respectable in PVP although it offered little to no group support and basically only shined in solo survivability and burst.

However the most recent changes to heavy attacks, combined with the changes to bow attacks has all but killed him off. The only reason it was even considerable was because of heavy attacks combined with Molten Armaments, timing these with a CC and ultimate allowed for somewhat competitive play. Now there is really no reason to be mainhanding bow on a stam DK, literally every other class is better suited for it.

ZOS gave away their true intentions for the class with the following Freudian slip:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:
Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

She can deny the intentions of that quote all she wants, but it is very revealing when considered within the context of changes to the DK class.

Shadzilla · July 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Sry for clickbait XD

Our guild have done a lot of dps tests on 6 mill skeleton, 55 mil centurion and in raids.
It has basically been a maraton of stamina dps, where we tested a lot of group composition, including dropping twicefanged snake for sunderflame and night mother.

Stamina DK have good stamina sustain due to flames of oblivion cost magicka, molten armaments cost magicka and gives stam back, and battle roar passive.
But when it comes to pure dps, it looks like other stamina classes out dps a stamina DK.
The reasons are due to their passives, which is physical damage increase, max stamina, crit chance, crit damage and weapon damage.
The DK passives in terms of damage, are; increase damage with poison status effect and poison AOE abilities.
Most of the damage comes from physical and scales with weapon damage, max stamina and crit, which is where other classes outperform.

Additional small details that don't count much but are worth to mention; there is more mag sorcs going full lightning builds atm, and together with stamina in raids there is no fire damage at all.
Not saying this is the case in all groups, but at least what we have experienced. So engulfing flames are no longer an option, that boosts flame damage by 10%. It doesn't affect stam dk that much, but it's a fact that standard of might and flames of oblivion will deal less damage. I would also like to remind the standard of might nerf with Homestead patch was due to the molten whip damage got increased, which has nothing to do with stamina DK. - Mag DK balance = Stam DK nerf.

After the nerf to base damage to heavy attacks as well as the champion points changes with master in arms, molten armaments have less value than before, and the gap with a heavy attack on a DK compared to other class, are closer. Have in mind, heavy attacks on a class that doesn't have bonus to heavy attacks, still benefits from example crit dmg on a nightblade / templar.

I personally think igneous weapons could have a passive that converted your heavy attacks from physical damage to poison damage.
The passive with 6% more damage with poison AOE abilities, could be 6% more damage with all poison attacks, kind of like sorcs already have additional dmg with lightning and physical.
Then maybe sets like Swamp Raider would be an option.
This would also give stam DK a little boost to poison injection, which would help them in execute compared to sorcs implosion and nightblades impale.

Just for fun, I'm adding a video where I support with sunderflame and morag tong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi-r7TKS__k

Call me crazy, but wasn't stam dk the best stamina dps for like the last 2 years+? Pretty ridic considering it is the OP meta tank class. I would prefer to see stam/mag dks do much less damage than they already do. No offense, I know you main a stam dk and have since launch. I know you were one of the rare stamboys still playing him the last 9 months, when stamina anything was trash. In my honest opinion I would like to see both sorcs and nbs do significantly more dps than dks and plars.

bebynnag · July 2017

every time i think about that passive 'increase damage with poison aoe'

Morgul667 · July 2017

I feel Class balance is not so bad at the moment. There are indeed differences but overall, they are small ones. Not game breaking.

Some StamDK are puling high DPS, I plan to develop one to try and see for myself

Anti_Virus · July 2017

I play pvp and personally I would love some more stam morphs from the class skill line, ones that aren't used by mDK.

Choking talons. Nice for PVP tanking and in PVE it already deals physical damage just make it cost stam.

Deep breath( make It poison damage) nice for AoE so that you aren't forced to run DW all the time for AoE every other stam class has a stam based AoE except DK.

Make Green Dragons blood cost stamina. That's it keep the HP heal mechanic but make it stam. Nice class heal so DKs aren't reliant on 2H for heals like stam Wardens.

Change world in Ruin passive to.

Increase Flame and Posion damage by 4%

Small helpful changes to improve stam DK.

MLGProPlayer · July 2017

Have you ever tested a magicka warden? Stam DK *** all over them.

Anti_Virus · July 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

My stam DK is just about dead and buried. It was already poor in the DPS department due to trying to Mainhand bow, but I could pull 33k which was respectable enough not to be written off. It was decently respectable in PVP although it offered little to no group support and basically only shined in solo survivability and burst.

However the most recent changes to heavy attacks, combined with the changes to bow attacks has all but killed him off. The only reason it was even considerable was because of heavy attacks combined with Molten Armaments, timing these with a CC and ultimate allowed for somewhat competitive play. Now there is really no reason to be mainhanding bow on a stam DK, literally every other class is better suited for it.

ZOS gave away their true intentions for the class with the following Freudian slip:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:
Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

She can deny the intentions of that quote all she wants, but it is very revealing when considered within the context of changes to the DK class.

Can you Link the thread In which the comment was made?

Toc de Malsvi · July 2017

@Anti_Virus
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/341177/why-even-bother-with-having-a-pts/p2

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

@ZOS_GinaBruno There's been a lot of angst RE: the state of DK, specifically mDK. Last year, when there were similar concerns about the state of Stamina Sorcerer Wrobel did like a mini QA to provide the players with an idea of where he saw the class headed. Any chance we could get something similar on DK? I think some of our stress could be assuaged if we could at least see the direction Development has for this class.

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

JiDul · July 2017

StamDK's are better for PvP. I feel they aren't meant for PvE. Run a 2h and Bow on a Orc and you are beastly in Cyro. They have Corrosive Armor that allows ALL your attacks to ignore PhysRes. So Executioner can OHKO a person at 50%.

Rally + Corrosive Armor + Wrecking Blow + Executioner = GG. They have amazing sustain being able to gain resources back once you hit your ult and as you said being able to return Stam with Battle Roar. You can even use Dark Talons with Phys damage and a Magicka cost! I feel they can be wicked strong if given the right sets.

techprince · July 2017

Test 2 piece molag kena if you are using HA instead of flurry.

Alcast · July 2017

Target dummies are nice, but do not really represent trial environment at all. So far in Trials StamDK outDPSed all other setups in terms of Single Target DPS.

I tried Stamsorc and Stamplar so far, still like StamDK more simply because of best sustain and best survivability.

HatchetHaro · July 2017

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

@HatchetHaro stinky lizard, tell them otherwise.

Will do!

Firstly, in response to the clickbait title:

This is my parse, all solo, on 250 ping, with an Argonian stam DK, with some gear problems (infused Kra'gh's shoulders and infused mace).

StamDKs aren't dead, not by a long shot. If anything, they are right behind stamblades when it comes to pure stamina dps, followed by stamplars and stamsorcs. Their dps and sustain when it comes to heavy attacking makes them even more viable compared to other stamina classes.

However, I agree with OP in every other way: stamDKs still need some form of buff to make up for their melee range handicap (to be honest, I think all stamina classes do). The whole poison passive thing looks really enticing; I really would like some sort of poison damage buff (and also make an argument about buffing poison damage for Argonians so they can be a viable DPS class. I like my lizards).

Rickter · July 2017

@HatchetHaro

First off: major props for picking a race that you love and making it happen. seriously, in the [EDIT] sea [END EDIT] of "BiS" its cool to see an "off race" still put up numbers.

Second: do you mind sharing your Blue Tree CP points?

Thanks!

Crom_CCCXVI · July 2017

If your playing a Stam DK, embrace your weakness..... enjoy your uniqueness and try to find a way to overcome.

As a Mag DK, I miss the days when there were only a few MagDK's out there, it was more fun. It sucks when your class gets buffed and every youtube copier starts running the same class as you.

TheCaptainJosh · July 2017

I have recently swapped my stamDK for a magsorc in PvE and PvP, but that is because I'm holding out for more stamina morphs of class abilities. In PvP stamina dragonknights are too reliant on other skill trees for my taste. A spiked armor or dragon blood stam morph would be greatly appreciated.

With that being said, stamDKs have one of the highest single target DPS in-game. A geared out DK with a super easy heavy attack-dot rotation can melt health bars.

Mettaricana · July 2017

No matter the race my stam dk feels like crap.... all resources seem almost 3-5 less than aby other class the dots seem to take up 90% of all the slots i meed trap and wep skills for..

HatchetHaro · July 2017

Rickter wrote: »

@HatchetHaro

First off: major props for picking a race that you love and making it happen. seriously, in the [EDIT] sea [END EDIT] of "BiS" its cool to see an "off race" still put up numbers.

Second: do you mind sharing your Blue Tree CP points?

Thanks!

My CP is currently 56 Thaumaturge, 56 Precise Strikes, 56 Mighty, 14 Piercing, and 28 Master-at-Arms.
My rotation also isn't the standard HA build. I only use 1-2 heavy attacks in mine.

SilverWF · July 2017

Wanna buff their DPS? This would bring a nerf to their tankyness.
Do you agree with that? Someone else agree?
Me - not.

Vaoh · July 2017

Trial scenarios are different than what you find from attacking a target dummy....

Stam DK is currently:
• Fantastic for Single Target DPS, always pulling the highest single target numbers even in Morrowind in actual trial scenarios. This has basically always been the case as well. Even if were going to say they don't pull the highest numbers in trials, they sure are doing very well.
• Fantastic for tanking. Still the class that 99.99999% of tanks are using in trials because it is simply the best for the job in every single way. I'd vouch for Warden being equal for the offtanking position though if played smartly.
• Possibly OP in PvP, considering their overwhelming popularity (right next to Stam NB). My experience here is strictly limited to Battlegrounds though. Also if procs were nerfed, there likely wouldn't be a balancing issue as we see right now. When I queue for BGs, at least 3/4 of the players are Stam DKs or Stam NBs running imbalanced proc setups.

*DKs only lack as healers atm. but besides that they are doing great.

X3ina · July 2017

^^ @Vaoh, if you're talking about pve endgame (trials) then its quite easy. Cast igneous shields then anything that heals (combat prayer or healing springs). You can make life easier for your group with chaining adds aswell, or even debuffing them with engulfing...

Something like: 5x worm + 5x architect + 1x something (i don't play healers xD).

Rickter · July 2017

HatchetHaro wrote: »

My CP is currently 56 Thaumaturge, 56 Precise Strikes, 56 Mighty, 14 Piercing, and 28 Master-at-Arms.
My rotation also isn't the standard HA build. I only use 1-2 heavy attacks in mine.

Thank you good sir! What would you recommend as a change for a more HA dependent player? @HatchetHaro

Vaoh wrote: »

• Possibly OP in PvP, considering their overwhelming popularity (right next to Stam NB). My experience here is strictly limited to Battlegrounds though. Also if procs were nerfed, there likely wouldn't be a balancing issue as we see right now. When I queue for BGs, at least 3/4 of the players are Stam DKs or Stam NBs running imbalanced proc setups.

I think this had more to do with the fact that people had high level characters and didnt want to start from scratch. Couple that with their popularity before the patch, I'd say a lot of people (including myself) decided theyd rather make the class work than start all over.

Vapirko · July 2017

I think Stam DK is still in a pretty good spot? I've never been top tier dps, but I have been able to pull 25k dps, with blue spriggan gear and epic hundings, no gold weapons, and missing one divines piece, self buffed. @Alcast also seems to be running stam DK for vet trials, and he's also focused on max dps. They have their place.

Vaoh · July 2017

X3ina wrote: »

^^ @Vaoh, if you're talking about pve endgame (trials) then its quite easy. Cast igneous shields then anything that heals (combat prayer or healing springs). You can make life easier for your group with chaining adds aswell, or even debuffing them with engulfing...

Something like: 5x worm + 5x architect + 1x something (i don't play healers xD).

You don't play healers but say that it's easy -_-

Yes, you can make it work but there is absolutely no reason to use a DK healer over a Templar or even a Warden healer. Those other two classes provide significantly more to the group than any DK healer could.

Also your tanks are both DKs, so they are spamming large Igneous Shield damage shields on group. If you use this skill as a healer it overrides the tank's damage shields and essentially lower your groups damage shield gain when it does this.

What I was trying to get across, was that Dragonknights are currently fantastic for PvE tanking, PvE DPS, PvP tanking, and PvP as whole.

The singular role they are not great for in Healing, mainly because they don't have any powerful class healer skills to get on par with Templars or even Wardens.

Vaoh · July 2017

Rickter wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

My CP is currently 56 Thaumaturge, 56 Precise Strikes, 56 Mighty, 14 Piercing, and 28 Master-at-Arms.
My rotation also isn't the standard HA build. I only use 1-2 heavy attacks in mine.

Thank you good sir! What would you recommend as a change for a more HA dependent player? @HatchetHaro

Vaoh wrote: »

• Possibly OP in PvP, considering their overwhelming popularity (right next to Stam NB). My experience here is strictly limited to Battlegrounds though. Also if procs were nerfed, there likely wouldn't be a balancing issue as we see right now. When I queue for BGs, at least 3/4 of the players are Stam DKs or Stam NBs running imbalanced proc setups.

I think this had more to do with the fact that people had high level characters and didnt want to start from scratch. Couple that with their popularity before the patch, I'd say a lot of people (including myself) decided theyd rather make the class work than start all over.

I don't think so tbh. Like I said, practically everyone is a Stam DK or Stam NB. People have a lot of class specs leveled but specifically use these two the most by a large margin, at least in Battlegrounds.

Stam DK is extremely well-rounded. A Stam NB is the same but trades tankiness/increased healing for extra burst/mobility.

Proc sets are likely why they are both so prevalent, which is why I said neither need nerfs. In fact I think they are both in a good spot but proc sets obviously imbalance PvP quite a lot.

Vaoh · July 2017

As for the thread title.... @OrphanHelgen c'mon why so clickbait -_-

Saturn · July 2017

This was written with only PvE content in mind:
Personally I've always seen stam DKs as the best stam dps, or at the very least the easiest. The new surge of 2h stam sorcs has somewhat changed the playing field, but I don't think stam dk is the worst stam dps. I think that honour goes to stam templar, as I've personally never seen one do any dps comparable to stam dks. Stam nbs are potentially good dpses (though I only know one good players who is able to achieve high dps with this class), but they are hard to play, which is why you don't see a lot of them.

With the sustain changes it seems that most stam dks no longer use maelstrom weapons and flurry, but are rather heavy attack weaving their dots with molten armaments up, though I have yet to try it, I have been told it is capable of doing great dps.

I think in terms of single target dps dk is likely still the best, but are overshadowed by sorcs that achieve better aoe dps, which, when all boss fights have adds nowadays, is preferable. This seems to be the case for both stamina and magicka.

Keep in mind that this is just from my experience with raiding, and what I've heard from my fellow raiders, but other people might have a different view of this, depending on who they play with. And while there is certainly a lack of balance in some areas, I do think that any given player is capable of performing well enough with any given class (stam or magicka) to complete endgame pve content. I think the whole "which class is worst" comes down to the individual player's capabilities when playing the game, and for example my inability to play stamina templar well has changed my perception of them, when other players might be capable achieving great results with in.

Kay1 · July 2017

JiDul wrote: »

StamDK's are better for PvP. I feel they aren't meant for PvE. Run a 2h and Bow on a Orc and you are beastly in Cyro. They have Corrosive Armor that allows ALL your attacks to ignore PhysRes. So Executioner can OHKO a person at 50%.

Rally + Corrosive Armor + Wrecking Blow + Executioner = GG. They have amazing sustain being able to gain resources back once you hit your ult and as you said being able to return Stam with Battle Roar. You can even use Dark Talons with Phys damage and a Magicka cost! I feel they can be wicked strong if given the right sets.

They are ***, and what you said is pure speculation, I've been doing PvP for 3 years and my StamDK have 1.3k hours and it's not even my main and I really think they are worst than magnb, their sustain is actually the worst in the game, they used to have that but they don't have it anymore and battle roar and igneous shield are useless for Sustain and only benefits MagDK.

Please I know you didn't mean it but don't spread false information like that because this class is complete *** right now and it definitely not need this type of opinion, people should cry for buffs instead of claiming they are alright.

Btw, Corrosive is a defensive skill, not an offensive skill, you never use it to go offensive you pretty much use it to regain resources or to spread opponents while being almost unkillable.